"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 17

 

I don't know, I kind of think that particular debt might be paid at this point, what with that whole Red Wedding thing. I also think that these books have always been very careful not to force direct confrontations that an audience might expect. I'd even call it one of the more notable qualities of the books. Not only would I be very surprised if Martin ends them with a lot of tit for tat revenges, I'd be very disappointed.

Ok, I am VERY drunk on a Sunday night, so that aside...  I'm halfway through the second book, and I don't remember a SINGLE scene from the book appearing in this episode...  Is this true of anybody else, or is my drunken haze hurting my judgement?  It feels like in the adaption very few of the early pages made it to screen.  Is the adaptation that liberal?

Sansa manipulating Joffrey into sparing Dontos was straight from the book (though I don't remember trying to drown him in wine). They flipped  the location and really streamlined the scene, but the Melisandre introduction and surviving the poison was also from the prologue, IIRC.

 

It's interesting reading the the reactions to the Dragonstone crew's introduction from those who are unfamiliar with the book. About half seem to fall on the side of "underwhelmed" and while that's exactly the point for Stannis, I think they had to walk a tight line with making sure Mel didn't seem to over the top. I think they did a fine job.

 

 

Did anyone else see someone of a darker skin tone for Melissandri? I kept seeing an Angela Basset in my head for some reason, but would swear the novel described her as dark skinned.

I do think the episode was a subdued one, but you are building characters. Like someone said in the other tread, the economy of character building is impressive with what they show and how quickly they do it.

 

That would be quite awesome.

 

I pictured Melisandre as the typical extremely pale redheaded witch, but I don't know if she's described in more detail in the book. If so, shame on me.

 

I will be extremely pissed if the Martells end up being whitewashed, however.

The Melisandre in my head is quite similar to the one on the show.  Mine is maybe a little bit older, but that's the extent of it.

Mel's described as pale-skinned in the book. Her colouring seems to be kind of unnatural.

 

My initial attitude was, Asshai's supposed to be in the far east, cast her as Asian just for diversity. But I've since come to the conclusion that Asshai is roughly parallel to Russia in our world, so I'm cool with that. (Not that I wouldn't like to see more non-white people in the show and books, just saying.)
 

It's not so much about revenge as it is "destiny". Martin's big on prophecies that come true, or appear to, from the idea that Harrenhal has a curse on it to Melisandre's magic seemingly causing the deaths of Balon, Joffrey and Robb (with the possible "out" that it was all a massive coincidence, but literarily speaking it's still a strong setup/payoff). So to me it's not that Tyrion's going to be out for revenge on Cat, since he has MUCH bigger fish to fry at this point, it's just that it would be an elegant tying up of loose ends if he were the one to kill her. I mean, if anything, I can see Cat provoking something and trying to kill HIM, and him killing her in self-defense.

 

I don't count the Red Wedding as anything to do with Tyrion--he was pretty disgusted by it when he found out it was his dad's doing, if you recall.

 

Something else I love that the show is bringing out in the discussions (probably because it's reaching a wider audience than fantasy fans, who tend to roll with the tropes) is the underlying frustration with the idea of a hereditary monarchy enforced by divine right (and a touch of maaaaaaagic) that bubbles throughout the books. I mean, the real focus is "war is hell", but it's fun to hear people half-jokingly express the hope that whoever conquers Westeros will end up establishing a democracy and get rid of all this line-of-succession, obey-the-king-even-if-he's-an-asshole crap. And in a weird way it's not completely beyond the realm of possibility, since the most likely contender for the throne once the dust has settled is Dany, and we know she's not going to be passing the throne onto her kids. Maybe the next historical touchstone for this series is the Magna Carta, or Dany as Oliver Cromwell. Of course things didn't go so well for Cromwell here in the real world, but you get my point.

 

Naveen Andrews for Oberyn Martell. Let's start this petition.

Dutch viewers were given access to episode 2 on HBO Go and here are some pics:

 

Ghost!

and here's the space jockey as the mountain

 

Predator first, then Space Jockey.  He was the only good thing in AVP2.

This is nit picky to the nth degree, so apologies, but...don't give The Mountain that helmet. Give him his huge-oh-fuck-what-terrible-beast-is-under-that helmet. Also, his shoulders are WAY too slim, and-okay, okay, I'll shut up now. 

 

And am I the only one who found Cresson's "Hey! Let's drink this NOT poisoned wine!" moment a bit...silly? And I don't know about you all, but I would much preferred to have that Dragonstone scene on the beach be the one to start the episode. 

One thing I found pretty interesting in ACOK and ASOS is how GRRM really kind of makes the wildlings (or "free folk") the most like our modern society. They are the most like us. They do not see why southern people are so quick to bend the knee. They are, when organized, primarily a meritocracy - in stark contrast to the aristocracy south of the wall.

 

I wonder if the GRRM has some sort of societal upheaval in process for Westeros. Perhaps at the end of the series, the north will be made up primarily of a wildling "freedom area". No lords.

 

Why?  It accomplishes nothing differently save sync up with the book.

Eh, I guess I just always had it in my head that this new season would immediately introduce us to a new player in the game (new player, new characters, new season etc) Plus spreading out some of Stannis' scenes instead of lumping them all together...but I fully acknowledge this is just me being nitpicky. I guess I just want to see more, damnitt! 

There's a historical precedent for that. Most "primitive" people actually hew to some kind of democracy or meritocracy--after all, their society tends to consist of tight tribal groups where everyone knows each other, so it's hard for Bubba Joe to suddenly declare himself ruler over all by divine appointment. It's only when you start to get big, powerful societies with lots of resources and armies that anyone has the means to seize power and declare themselves king or chief or emperor. When the ancient Greeks developed democracy, they were actually reaching back to older forms of tribal government. Monarchy is actually a relatively recent invention in human history.

 

Where's Shireen and Patchface? Don't tell me they've been written out!!!

They're hardly vital to the story, especially since they'd essentially appear for five seconds and then never again for multiple seasons.

 

I do have a weird sense that Patchface is going to be important later on--Martin plays him up so much in book 2 and then lingers on him in book 5--and Shireen's probably significant in that she's probably going to end up as the heir to the Baratheon lordship, but I don't see any reason they can't be introduced much later down the line.

Based on early word from the next episode, Shireen has definitely been written out of the show. She does not exist. And therefore Patchface is likely gone as well.

 

Which is perfectly fine, IMO. These two characters are not crucial.

 

 

Yeah, they're definitely not crucial, though seeing Patchface would have been amusing, and I always felt sorry for poor Shireen.

 

Considering how they're dealing with

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

removing Shireen makes sense. That does make me question the importance of the greyscale disease, however. I know that Val is really freaked out about the disease, calling her unclean, and then the guy who's been harboring the secret Targaryen in ADWD also has the disease IIRC. I

 

 

Oh, and apparently the first four episodes are available early for the Dutch? Bastards.

I'm kind of surprised if they've cut Shireen out entirely. It wouldn't be hard for Stannis to indicate he had a wife and daughter somewhere offscreen, would it? And then bring her onscreen as needed?

I have a feeling we're gonna see a lot of these characters (including the Reeds, Ramsay, etc)further on down the line, when they're most important. For now I guess they just couldn't find any space for them. 

 

On re-watch, one thing that amused me as a book reader: When Theon says his father's rebellion was all about "freeing themselves from the yoke of southern oppression" probably because "the freedom to rape and pillage whoever we want!" didn't sound as good. Though now that I think about it, it just makes it extra tragic that Theon views his people through rose colored glasses. 

I haven't rewatched it yet, but doesn't Stannis motion over towards a woman after he pulls the fire sword? A woman that wasn't Melisandre and she follows him, first before anyone else. Maybe that's his wife...?

He definitely did.  I think the camera blinked over to her at one point during the ritual as well.  I'm presuming wife (as did the rest of those watching with me), since she definitely didn't have greyscale disease, and IIRC Stannis' wife was described as not-attractive and this woman was to my recollection quite plain.

Yes, Stannis still has a wife in the show - and that was probably her at the beach. But no daughter. (revealed in episode 2 from what I have read)

I think Stannis being married is a pretty big element of his character. His wife's supposedly the one who brought him into the faith of R'hllor. Plus it's an important character beat, this guy who's supposedly obsessed with justice but who cheats on his wife to make shadow-babies. "I must fuck this hot redhead for the greater good, not because I WANT to." Maybe his wife is even cool with it?

Stannis doesn't have sex with Melisandre.  the shadow baby that takes Stannis's shape is part of his life force or something that's taken from him in some sort of spell.  Stannis's code would never allow him to break his vows to his wife, even if he doesn't love her.

And you know this... how? An assumption on your part. But Stannis is not above breaking his vows. He helped his usurper brother. And for all we know, his wife may even want it to happen.

 

The clearest proof that there is a sexual relationship is from the Melisandre POV in ADWD - She comments that her bed has been empty while Stannis is away from Castle Black. You can choose to interpret it any way you want I suppose. But the implication should staring you in his face.

 

In addition, 'magic' in the ASOIAF universe is not about simple life force stealing spells of typical fantasy fare. It is very basic & elemental. Nothing is for free. Death pays for life. And vice versa.

 

Not to mention that Stannis' entire character arc seems to be bent on showing how ambition can make a man of unbending principle into a hypocrite.  Davos' POVs make it seem like the Stannis of the present is a far cry from the Stannis of the past. It's fascinating to watch Stannis try to cling to whatever shred are left of his "honor" and "dignity" but I suspect there's going to be an epic meltdown in his future.  Probably about the same time Melisandre realizes she's been backing the wrong horse all along, which just might dovetail with the revelation of Jon Snow's true parentage (assuming of course that young Master Snow survives his most recent predicament) and/or Daenerys actually making it across the ocean with army and dragons in tow.

 

Not to mention that the High Priest of Melisandre's religion has given his full support to Daenerys as well.

SPOILER SPACE

DAMN, I HOPE I'M DOING THIS RIGHT

SPOILER SPACE

 

 

I'm not a magical biologist, but I think to make shadows babies a man and a woman need to have sex. I can't remember if it's the second or third book, but there's a part where Melisandre pretty much propositions Davos for the purpose of having another shadow baby.

spoiler space spoiler space spoiler space

 

Ok, I'm calling it now. "Stannis didn't have sex with Melisandre" will be this year's "Renly isn't gay".

Quote:

Man, that's all those Red Priests do: Cling to whatever person in a position of power and proclaim them the reincarnation of Azor Ahai. I actually laughed out loud in Dance with Dragons when Moqorro pulled that same shtick. At least Thoros of Myr didn't try to convince Beric he was the reincarnation as well. Fucking red priests and their hokey religion...their Gods are all wrong! Weirwood all the way!

 

You mean, people said that before Renly was "outed"? Or they were angry at the show for portraying Renly as gay because that's not how they interpreted the books?

 

And are these the same people who are angry that they "made" Rue black in The Hunger Games?

By the way, my biggest problem with Martin is his failure to keep subtext in the background, always dragging it to the forefront of the character's thoughts. But given how much stuff people apparently didn't pick up on from the books and that the show is making explicit, I guess I have to give him more credit.

Heh, we've already seen fleeting glimpses of Melisandre in what certainly looks to be conjugal bliss in some of the previews.  Was she implied to have slept with anyone else in the books?

 

But yeah, my understanding was always that Stannis and Melisandre were having or at least have had "relations."  If anything it's far more heavily implied than Renly/Loras (which was already pretty heavy).

It was after his scene with Loras from season 1. I guess people were taking the "if character x isn't explicitly shown being killed then don't assume he's dead" thought process to the extreme. GRRM didn't write about Renly doing gay stuff in book 1 so clearly he isn't gay. GRRM didn't write a sex scene with Stannis and Melisandre so clearly they never had sex.

 

Well now the show has both of the above. I read an early review that mentioned episode 2 and two people having sex over a map of Westeros. You know what that means.

That may have been her giving birth, but yeah, I'm quite certain that she and Stannis have sex to produce the shadow people. Doesn't the shadow even look like Stannis? 

 

What is that castle on the cliffs in the picture up above? The Greyjoys?

Yes and probably. (That's how the Greyjoy's castle is described in the books, lots of towers linked by bridges.)

 

Well, there's that debate settled (re: Stannis and Melisandre).

How disappointing.

The Stannis from the books would never have allowed himself to cheat on his wife. It was the biggest problem he had with Robert and his honor.

Again, this show takes liberties with the source material I just can't abide by as a fan of the books.

Although it isn't outright in the books, Stannis and Melisandre's affair was strongly hinted at all the time. Just like Renly's sexuality. But I guess some people need everything laid out right in front of them. 

 

And Stannis is capable of pretty much anything; all he has to do is justify it for the name of the realm, his claim, what's right, etc. The Lord of Light chose him to screw Melisandre because blah, blah, blah. If anything, the show gave him even more motivation by not providing him with any kind of heir. 

The stuff with Renly being gay was heavily implied and well known to many of the books characters. The idea that Stannis and Mellisandra had an affair was never more than idle speculation. This is a guy who would rather eat rats and shoe leather than surrender in battle. This is a guy who places justice, honor, and oaths above all else. You can't tell me the Stannis from the books would break his vows like that. Mellisandra was just a close advisor in the books. I never felt Stannis would actually have an affair with her. In fact, it's widely implied that Stannis doesn't enjoy sex at all.

But I guess you're so much smarter than me, so I should just shut up, yeah?

You don't have to shut up, but you don't need to take this particular conversation so seriously either. It's been awhile since I read it, but I felt pretty sure those two hooked up when I read it. It seems like its kind of up to the reader, really.

He's also the guy that falls under the influence of a mysterious sorcerers, denounces his religion for one that proclaims him as some form of second coming and kills his brother using sorcery. Sorcery that involves having the sorcerers give birth to a mysterious "shadow" that looks just like Stannis. Out of her vagina. Twice. I have no doubt that the character thinks he's honorable, that oaths and honor and justice are important to him. But that doesn't mean he actually is. Davos calls him out on his false sense of honor in book three and Stannis names him hand of the king for it.

 

It's also worth noting that GRRM is an executive producer on the show. Obviously they're changing things, but if he really felt like they were betraying his characters, I'm sure he's speak up about it. And it's also okay that a character in a show not be exactly the same as the ones in the book. They've already done alterations to a few characters. Don't view these two things as exactly the same, you're bound to be disappointed if you have such a narrow point of view. They're different by default and they need to be in order for the show be a successful adaptation. 

GRRM doesn't have much say in how the show goes, otherwise I think they'd be sticking closer to the books.  I can disagree with you on all your points, siting that Stannis sees being "chosen" by the lord of light a duty he must fulfill, much like his duty to his brother when he rebelled against the mad king.  He's said many times he didn't want to be king, but that it's justified and by law, he must assume the throne, and others must follow him and pledge themselves to him.  And his sense of justice is what justifies him killing his brother because he sees Renly as someone who is breaking the law.  Stannis has a very rigid code of right and wrong, and he knows its wrong to break a sacred vow of marriage.  I think you can argue that its possible he hooked up with Melissandre in the books, but I also think you'd have an equal argument that he never did.  And to say "Some people need it spoon fed to them" is kinda arrogant when it comes to a differing interpretation, so I'd ask that you be a bit respectful when you disagree.

 

I've been disappointed with this series since it began, simply because they make lots of bizarre changes from the books they don't need to.  But whatever, I can still watch and enjoy it for what it is.  But so many things the producers of this show do just make me shake my head in disgust because I feel like they take away so much of what made the books great.  I'm not saying the show is bad, I just think it makes choices that thumb its nose in the faces of people who are major fans of the books.

Yeah, as indicated above, I totally read the book as Stannis sleeping with Melisandre to produce shadow-babies, which I still see as a vital aspect of his character--it shows that he's not about honour and justice the way Ned was. He uses justice as an excuse to get what he wants, and he compensates by being ostentatiously, ludicrously "just" in his overt dealings. As George Smiley put it, he's a fanatic, and the fanatic is always harbouring a secret doubt.

 

And for the record, I'm a guy who didn't catch the Loras/Renly thing in the books until someone pointed it out to me. But I definitely went with the interpretation that Mel and Stannis are sleeping together. Which, as I believe was mentioned above, is more or less textually confirmed in the latest book, when Mel says something like "my bed has been lonely since Stannis left".