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"Official" Game Of Thrones Discussion for those who have read the books. - Page 19

post #901 of 4360

Remembering all these plot strands, I'm really hoping that Martin has a specific plan in place. I hope he knows everything that happens in the story, has it written down in character bio and flow chart form, and that the bones exist completely in the world right now. If this all comes to a really strong and complete ending, it will really be an incredible accomplishment. There's not a ton of precedence for long running series sticking the landing. It would be a shame if, as Martin has said, he ends this like Lost or something.

post #902 of 4360

I think the trouble is that, by the time the series starts to reach its conclusion, you're going to need the Others to be something more than unknowably evil beings who wreak havoc for no reason. While I totally get the mythic power of keeping them alien, and I hope they do maintain it to an extent, it's going to get hard to get into the nitty-gritty of "how do we defeat them" without getting at least a little more into their motivations and the mythology underlying it. One of the strengths of the series is that it hasn't been about a mindless clash between good and evil yet. It would be kind of nuts to humanize the Walkers, and yet, it'd be totally in keeping with what Martin's done with this series.

 

Of course, we also have hatefully evil bastards like Joffrey, Ramsey and Walder Frey, so I guess not everyone needs to be made sympathetic. Though at least with those characters you have strong feelings about them, whereas with the generic, Sauron-esque Forces of Evil in most fantasy books, this one included so far, they're more of an abstract threat. That, at least, is something I hope changes in the final books.

post #903 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

Remembering all these plot strands, I'm really hoping that Martin has a specific plan in place. I hope he knows everything that happens in the story, has it written down in character bio and flow chart form, and that the bones exist completely in the world right now. If this all comes to a really strong and complete ending, it will really be an incredible accomplishment. There's not a ton of precedence for long running series sticking the landing. It would be a shame if, as Martin has said, he ends this like Lost or something.


Martin's managed some phenomenal, multi-book setup-payoffs so far, and there are some obvious hints of stuff that'll click into place in the next books (like a certain beloved fan theory which makes too much sense not to have been carefully planned out), so I'm thinking he probably can pull it off.

post #904 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

I think the trouble is that, by the time the series starts to reach its conclusion, you're going to need the Others to be something more than unknowably evil beings who wreak havoc for no reason. While I totally get the mythic power of keeping them alien, and I hope they do maintain it to an extent, it's going to get hard to get into the nitty-gritty of "how do we defeat them" without getting at least a little more into their motivations and the mythology underlying it. One of the strengths of the series is that it hasn't been about a mindless clash between good and evil yet. It would be kind of nuts to humanize the Walkers, and yet, it'd be totally in keeping with what Martin's done with this series.

 

Of course, we also have hatefully evil bastards like Joffrey, Ramsey and Walder Frey, so I guess not everyone needs to be made sympathetic. Though at least with those characters you have strong feelings about them, whereas with the generic, Sauron-esque Forces of Evil in most fantasy books, this one included so far, they're more of an abstract threat. That, at least, is something I hope changes in the final books.

What bothers me here is the whole "Song of Ice and Fire" title being interpreted by some as literal, like there HAS to be a an Ice vs Fire battle; if a character becomes, I dunno, the Lich King of the Others, would that cheapen the story? (I went with Lich King because the thought just popped, not a WoW or DnD reference).

However, the existance and hints at "Good" or "Neutral" supernatural characters (Coldhands, for example) make me both dread and anticipate what Martin has planned.

Also, not to be the asshole here, but I think im not alone in having the horrible, horrible fear of martin pulling a "Douglas Adams" and kicking the bucket before the series is finished...because that would suck so much, dammit.

 

post #905 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post

Also, not to be the asshole here, but I think im not alone in having the horrible, horrible fear of martin pulling a "Douglas Adams" and kicking the bucket before the series is finished...because that would suck so much, dammit.

 


Well, Brandon Sanderson has pretty successfully (from what I've heard, haven't read the books) carried on The Wheel of Time in Robert Jordan's place.  I just wonder if Martin has created the kind of detailed notes Jordan did that allowed Sanderson to finish the story.  Given his admitted preference for free writing and the amount of time it's taken him to get through five books, I don't think he has anything more than a general outline of where things eventually go.

 

That said, I'd peg Joe Abercrombie to finish things up should the unmentionable happen.  His First Law trilogy proved he can juggle a lot of characters, that he can do bleak and brutal, and that he can handle political and personal intrigues.

post #906 of 4360

Douglas Adams? He went on several books longer than he'd planned, not that he wasn't taken from us too soon. Anyway, I find the speculation about Martin's supposedly immanent demise (dude's only 64, people!) to be a little ghoulish. Now that he's proven he hasn't abandoned the series, I see no reason he can't finish two more books, one of which he's already apparently made some major headway on. If the worst DOES happen, well, the dudes adapting the show are novelists themselves, so...

post #907 of 4360

Martin said in an interview he has a clear path towards how he plans on wrapping up everything. I hope that is true. Do need to check out the Sanderson WoT books, hear they're everything you love (epic sagas!) and hate (god damn, another food and clothing description!) that made the originals great and infuriating.

 

Also, on a slightly related note concerning the title, I think it was...Dany who mentioned having some sort of vision that proclaimed that either her kid or her dragons or even herself would "sing the song of ice and fire" or something in I think book...3? I might've missed something but was that point ever brought up again? I ask because I think the title 'A Song of Ice and Fire' is irresistible, lots of fun to say but still kinda vague at this point.

post #908 of 4360

When Dany visits the House of the Undying, she sees a vision of Rhaegar (I can't remember if he's named or you're just supposed to infer that it's him) looking at his infant son and saying, "He is the Prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."  The major fan theory being, of course, that the baby is Jon Snow.

post #909 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

Anyway, I find the speculation about Martin's supposedly immanent demise (dude's only 64, people!) to be a little ghoulish.



I don't think anyone is actively hoping for it, but if you take a look at the guy, concern for his ongoing health isn't exactly unfounded.

post #910 of 4360

I know it's a common theory, Shape, but you should spoiler that. I personally wish I'd never heard it, because it's looking more and more like it's probably true.

post #911 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post



I don't think anyone is actively hoping for it, but if you take a look at the guy, concern for his ongoing health isn't exactly unfounded.



Martin has already given the most important details of the ending as he currently envisions it to the HBO writers just in case he kicks the bucket before finishing the books OR in case the TV series outpaces his writing.  Setting up a scenario where we might see the ending on TV before we see it in print.  Though non-major details may work out differently between the two.

 

And yes, Sanderson's Wheel of Time books have been good, but he had the benefit of joining the series at a point where he gets to sidestep the major complaint of the last 2 or 3 books (Plot fatigue) and basically just jumps right into resolving plots and subplots with gusto.

 

 

post #912 of 4360

No disrespect to Jordan, but I think Sanderson's books have actually been better than the last few that Jordan wrote (Crossroads of Twighlight, I am looking squarely at you).

 

I think the books clearly show that Stannis is corrupted by his quest for power. Whether it is his lamenting Robert taking the throne ahead of him or Renly's claim, Stannis comes off as petulant in both.

 

Stannis also offered Jon Snow the northern crown because it would suit his push for the throne.  Ned's flaw was his rigourous adherence to a code of honor. I think Stannis code is a red-herring, his true flaw is his ambition and resentments.

 

Mel's attraction to John Snow is palpable, in him I think she sees a more powerful vessel for Rhollor (which would be in line with the theories of John's parentage that abound). Of course Snow actually chooses his honor or duty, and pays a price for that choice....though with Cat/ladystoneheart, the GregorGollum and Coldhands (benjen?), I doubt we have seen the last of John now......the red priest could revive the dead with the kiss of Rhollor or some such, I imagine melisandra's bj of hot goodness could wake Snow up.

 

I thought the implication early on was that it was Stannis seed that spawned the shadow babies, Melisandre makes a great deal out of the use of King's blood and I assume King's seed would have it's uses.


The books most graphically made the point of the cost of Magic with Mirri Maz Dur, Stannis has relied on Magic as well, I would expect the eventual cost to him to be just as great.

post #913 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

I find it weird that everyone's dwelling on the fact that they have to change things from the books, when this isn't a change. It really, really isn't. Martin all but smacks you in the face with the implication that Stan and Mel are fucking to make shadow babies. It could be a fakeout (why?) but the implication is right there, out in the open, even in aCoK. And even putting that aside, the idea that Stan is Captain Nobility and Honour is just a hilarious misreading of the character. You're judging him by what he says, rather than what he does. It's like getting all insistent that Stannis MUST be Azor Ahai, because Melisandre says he is, despite all the obvious evidence to the contrary. Sometimes characters are misrepresented. And Stannis's much-touted sense of "justice" kind of falls apart the instant you actually look at what he's done, as opposed to what he says.

 

The actual quote, from the Melisandre chapter of ADWD: "Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use." This is on top of the fact that the shadow babies resemble Stannis, and that, y'know, babies are usually made through fucking. You have to be willfully ignorant not to draw this conclusion.


Well, when you consider more of the passage from ADWD, it's not as obvious as you'd think.  “Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream.”  This statement can also imply that with Stannis gone, Melisandre has had more to do therefore she herself hardly uses her bed, which is why it states she has "no time for sleep". 

 

"Babies are usually made through fucking"?  LOL.   What does that have to do with anything?  Babies usually aren't born fully grown nor born within days of each other.  We are dealing with a woman who is immune to poison, can birth shadows, and see the future.  I don't think "usually" applies to anything she does.

 

I can't say for certain whether Stannis and Melisandre are sleeping together or not.  I'm just saying there is doubt for each scenario, and in my personal opinion in reading the books, they weren't.
 

 

post #914 of 4360

Them not fucking would be so much less interesting.

post #915 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

I know it's a common theory, Shape, but you should spoiler that. I personally wish I'd never heard it, because it's looking more and more like it's probably true.

 

Eh, we're in a thread for people who've read the books and it's only a fan theory.

post #916 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialdemon View Post


Well, when you consider more of the passage from ADWD, it's not as obvious as you'd think.  “Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream.”  This statement can also imply that with Stannis gone, Melisandre has had more to do therefore she herself hardly uses her bed, which is why it states she has "no time for sleep". 

 

"Babies are usually made through fucking"?  LOL.   What does that have to do with anything?  Babies usually aren't born fully grown nor born within days of each other.  We are dealing with a woman who is immune to poison, can birth shadows, and see the future.  I don't think "usually" applies to anything she does.

 

I can't say for certain whether Stannis and Melisandre are sleeping together or not.  I'm just saying there is doubt for each scenario, and in my personal opinion in reading the books, they weren't.
 

 


Yes, it's not stated outright and there's deniability...because it's cooler that way. But come on. There's so much evidence to support the idea that they're fucking, you kind of have to bend over backward to deny it. When Martin keeps dropping hints like that into the narrative, denying each individual implication becomes more and more of a stretch.

 

post #917 of 4360

 

One of my favourite (and sadder) parts of ACOK was left out – Maester Cressen loved Stannis like a son, while everyone else fawned over Robert and Renly. His sacrifice was out of love, while on the show it felt more like he was angry at the burning of the old gods.

 

Maybe it’s because I have an autistic son, but sometimes I wonder if Stannis’s cold demeanour could be due some kind of Aspergers disorder. He was described as a brilliant tactician. Not all austistic people have trouble with eye contact or social situations, sometimes they just have no empathy or don't care about other people's views.

 

Another difference from the books - Arya was a lot meaner towards Hot Pie and Lommy in ACOK compared to how she was portrayed in Ep 2. They probably want her to be a bit more likeable in the show and less of a psychopath than in the books. 

post #918 of 4360

I think in addition to all the textual support, the way magic works in this universe is very elemental and messy.   It's not like Harry Potter.   Melisendre snapping her fingers and a shadow baby comes out just seems a little too tidy.   I imagine that sex is the conduit by which this rite is done and along with the seed, a little bit of the man's life force is sacrificed in the process.   It falls in line with what we saw in the previous book with the magic performed on Khal Drogo.   I honestly never thought there was a question of what went down to make those shadows before I came on here.   It feels way too obvious in the books.   I'm sure if there was a Stannis POV chapter, we would have seen this played out.   As it is, we got enough info to make the connections ourselves.   Finally, with George RR Martin being consulted heavily on the show, I doubt he would have signed off on something like this if it weren't the case.

post #919 of 4360

 

Renewed for Season 3: biggrin.gif (expected but nice to have it be official now)

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/04/hbo-renews-game-of-thrones-for-a-third-season/

 

So Dan & D.B. get their wish... Filming the RW. (apparently one of their most anticipated scene to adapt)

post #920 of 4360

Hey, renewal!

 

Next week we'll be seeing Renly and the first appearance of someone who might end up fairly important, Brienne. Certainly one of this year's biggest acquisitions along with Stannis, and the early word is that they've grand slammed the casting.

post #921 of 4360

She certainly looks the part, we just have to see if she has the chops to play it.

post #922 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post


Yes, it's not stated outright and there's deniability...because it's cooler that way. But come on. There's so much evidence to support the idea that they're fucking, you kind of have to bend over backward to deny it. When Martin keeps dropping hints like that into the narrative, denying each individual implication becomes more and more of a stretch.

 



 What evidence?  I would honestly like to know in case I missed something.  The only real clue we have that they may be sleeping together is the fact that Davos recognizes the shadow and who cast it, and even that is speculation, because we don't know how the magic works.  Thoros didn't need a human sacrifice every time he resurrected Beric Dondarrion, so it's not clear cut that Melisandre would need to have sex to create a shadow.

post #923 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperspace View Post

 

Renewed for Season 3: biggrin.gif (expected but nice to have it be official now)

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/04/hbo-renews-game-of-thrones-for-a-third-season/

 

So Dan & D.B. get their wish... Filming the RW. (apparently one of their most anticipated scene to adapt)


I can't even begin to describe how interested I am in seeing the reactions from the non-readers to next season.  I don't mean that in any sort of sadistic or superior way, but I'm simply curious to see whether folks are invested primarily in the overall show, or primarily invested in certain characters.

 

Honestly, has any ongoing television show in history pulled off something on the scale of...what we all know will be coming?  Even on HBO?  Heck, not even just with the "RW" but with the multitude of other major events that occur with many of the other characters (Tyrion in particular).  The "buzz" on this show after those events may well reach stratospheric levels. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

Hey, renewal!

 

Next week we'll be seeing Renly and the first appearance of someone who might end up fairly important, Brienne. Certainly one of this year's biggest acquisitions along with Stannis, and the early word is that they've grand slammed the casting.


Actually we might get the appearances of two people that may end up fairly important.  Not just Brienne, but Margaery Tyrell, as well, whom I suspect is going to get a significant degree of "beefed up for television" where her role is concerned (and who also has been generating behind-the-scenes buzz for "good casting.")

 

post #924 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post

Honestly, has any ongoing television show in history pulled off something on the scale of...what we all know will be coming?  Even on HBO?  Heck, not even just with the "RW" but with the multitude of other major events that occur with many of the other characters (Tyrion in particular).  The "buzz" on this show after those events may well reach stratospheric levels. 

 


The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is the "flash-forward" reveal on LOST's Season 3 finale.  

 

post #925 of 4360



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamotv View Post

I think in addition to all the textual support, the way magic works in this universe is very elemental and messy.   It's not like Harry Potter.   Melisendre snapping her fingers and a shadow baby comes out just seems a little too tidy.   I imagine that sex is the conduit by which this rite is done and along with the seed, a little bit of the man's life force is sacrificed in the process.   It falls in line with what we saw in the previous book with the magic performed on Khal Drogo.   I honestly never thought there was a question of what went down to make those shadows before I came on here.   It feels way too obvious in the books.   I'm sure if there was a Stannis POV chapter, we would have seen this played out.   As it is, we got enough info to make the connections ourselves.   Finally, with George RR Martin being consulted heavily on the show, I doubt he would have signed off on something like this if it weren't the case.


I agree that magic isn't clean like it is in Harry Potter.  Sex could very well be the conduit for Melisandre to create the shadows, but we don't know.  Magic is a very unknown power in this world.  Mirri Maz Duur did have to use a sacrifice to heal Khal Drogo, but she wasn't a follower of R'hllor.  Moqorro didn't need such a sacrifice to heal Victarion's wounded hand.  Thoros didn't need a human sacrifice to resurrect Dondarrion, but he did need one to bring back Caetlyn Stark.  Also, both Melisandre and Moqorro needed a sacrifice to get favorable winds while sailing. 

 

As for Martin not signing off on it, I don't think it mattered too much to him since it didn't really change the overall story.  After all, if he has to approve everything, he also approved Rakharo being killed even though he is one of Daenerys' most important servants.

 

post #926 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialdemon View Post

Mirri Maz Duur did have to use a sacrifice to heal Khal Drogo, but she wasn't a follower of R'hllor.  Moqorro didn't need such a sacrifice to heal Victarion's wounded hand.  Thoros didn't need a human sacrifice to resurrect Dondarrion, but he did need one to bring back Caetlyn Stark.  Also, both Melisandre and Moqorro needed a sacrifice to get favorable winds while sailing. 


Just because we are not aware of a sacrifice does not mean that one wasn't made. Melisandre seems to indicate that it has a cost to her - although might just be my impression. Thoros did indeed bring back Dondarrion (multiple times), but he never came back the same. Always less than before. 

 

I think GRRM's view of magic is pretty consistent and clear. It is dangerous and never free. The best expression of that is probably when Jon is told (in book 2 or 3) by a wildling that wielding magic is like wielding a sword with no hilt. 

 

post #927 of 4360

It's very interesting to me what they do with Season Three. There's been much talk of splitting it into two or managing some other sort of seismic shift with how adaptation will work, and that's going to be somewhat necessary sooner or later, with the structure of 4 and 5. And it makes some sense to end the season with the Red Wedding. But it would be equally awesome to end it with Joffrey's death, or with Tywin's. But how would those play in the first chunk of season 4? Characters like Arya start having less to do, while Jamie gets all of a sudden quite busy. What I'm wondering is how can this show remain focused when it gets so diffuse over time? When we don't see Davos for six weeks, will we retain him enough to bring him back in a meaningful way?

 

One way I expect they'll be dealing with this in the immediate season is Jon Snow will have some season three adventures in season two. I wouldn't be shocked if this year ends with him meeting Mance Rayder.

post #928 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

It's very interesting to me what they do with Season Three. There's been much talk of splitting it into two or managing some other sort of seismic shift with how adaptation will work, and that's going to be somewhat necessary sooner or later, with the structure of 4 and 5. And it makes some sense to end the season with the Red Wedding. But it would be equally awesome to end it with Joffrey's death, or with Tywin's. But how would those play in the first chunk of season 4? Characters like Arya start having less to do, while Jamie gets all of a sudden quite busy. What I'm wondering is how can this show remain focused when it gets so diffuse over time? When we don't see Davos for six weeks, will we retain him enough to bring him back in a meaningful way?

 

One way I expect they'll be dealing with this in the immediate season is Jon Snow will have some season three adventures in season two. I wouldn't be shocked if this year ends with him meeting Mance Rayder.


There are definitely some strong hints that both Jon Snow and Robb Stark's stories will be crossing into Book 3 territory starting this season.

 

post #929 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperspace View Post


Just because we are not aware of a sacrifice does not mean that one wasn't made. Melisandre seems to indicate that it has a cost to her - although might just be my impression. Thoros did indeed bring back Dondarrion (multiple times), but he never came back the same. Always less than before. 

 

I think GRRM's view of magic is pretty consistent and clear. It is dangerous and never free. The best expression of that is probably when Jon is told (in book 2 or 3) by a wildling that wielding magic is like wielding a sword with no hilt. 

 


But there definitely isn't an extreme price to all magic.  Remember, Melisandre was able to glamour Mance Rayder from everyone, and the Faceless Men seem to be able to change their faces at will.
 

 

post #930 of 4360

Mance Rayder hasn't been cast, so I don't think we'll be seeing him, but it sounds like Ygritte makes an earlier appearance than in the books.

 

And that's been my issue with the idea of splitting a season too. You can't just lop the novel in half. The main characters all need to have an arc and some kind of climax, or it just feels like half a season. This is going to be an issue with the proposed remixing of books 4 and 5, too--if they're shuffled together and then split into two seasons, we'll end up with, potentially, a season ending with characters in the middle of a journey somewhere rather than having accomplished anything. It'll feel just as wheel-spinning as the books. Though, that said, it sounds like there are a lot of climactic events coming up right at the beginning of book 6, so if they move some of those back the way they're probably doing with the Fist of the First Men this season, that at least gives them more meat.

 

Ah well, one of the D&D duo said something about how they don't want S3 to feel like half a season, so they're presumably aware of these concerns. And I'm not saying it won't work, especially if they write some new material for characters like Arya and Bran. Maybe they could move Arya's confrontation with the Tickler and the rest up a bit? Have that be her climactic moment? Jon Snow's S3 storyline could end with him deciding to peel off from Mance Rayder, maybe? And I almost feel like Dany's storyline could be fit almost entirely into S3, up to the point where she turns the Unsullied on the slave merchants, and then you could spend the next season with her rampaging around Slaver's Bay, watching her good intentions fall apart, before she settles down to rule Meereen.

 

Whatever happens, there's likely to be an increasing number of changes from the book next season.

post #931 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post


There are definitely some strong hints that both Jon Snow and Robb Stark's stories will be crossing into Book 3 territory starting this season.

 


And Jaime's.

 

SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE

 

I've also said, the stuff that happens to Jon Snow at the end of book 3 feels more like early-season table setting--there's this huge epic battle, then suddenly it's election time. So I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed it back to S5. Of course, this show likes to have the shit go down in episode 9 and then spend the 10th episode laying the table...but the "Jon runs for Lord Commander" storyline really feels like it could roll on for a few episodes.

 

post #932 of 4360

CelestialDemon, my point is that Martin implies that Stannis and Mel are sleeping together over and over again. This isn't historical research. It's fiction. No matter how well you can refute each specific example, when an author keeps implying something, he clearly wants you to at least consider the possibility. And considering the possibility, Stannis sleeping with Mel is much more dramatically rich than otherwise, until and unless we're given a reason to the contrary. So to argue that this is some violent change from the books because you can nitpick away all the specific examples is really stretching.

post #933 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

CelestialDemon, my point is that Martin implies that Stannis and Mel are sleeping together over and over again. This isn't historical research. It's fiction. No matter how well you can refute each specific example, when an author keeps implying something, he clearly wants you to at least consider the possibility. And considering the possibility, Stannis sleeping with Mel is much more dramatically rich than otherwise, until and unless we're given a reason to the contrary. So to argue that this is some violent change from the books because you can nitpick away all the specific examples is really stretching.



 I've admitted that there is definitely a possibility that they are sleeping together.  I've never said otherwise.  As of right now, Martin has left that open for the reader to decide.  The only thing I'm refuting is those who claim that they are sleeping together without a shadow of a doubt, when that's clearly not the case.  If Martin was to confirm a sexual relationship between the two in the next or last book, I'd be perfectly fine with that just as I would if he were to confirm otherwise.

 

As for the show, I happen to think them sleeping together adds nothing to either one of their characters or to the story itself.  Melisandre is already completely devoted to him since she believes he is Azor Ahai, and he is devoted to her doing anything to make him king.  Unless HBO makes up their own story and Melisandre actually does give him a son, what does the sex matter?

post #934 of 4360

I didn't need a video tape of Monica Lewinsky giving it to Ol' Bill, but between the rumors, his sly denial that wasn't a denial, and someone saying that someone said something to someone else about it moved reasonable doubt to beyond a shadow of a doubt. Perhaps he had not had sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky, but I was 99 percent sure, and would have been more shocked to find out that he had not received oral pleasures.

 

 

I didn't need to see Melisandre get it on on top of the table. But I would have been more shocked if they pinky swore and out popped Shadow Stannis. 

 

post #935 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialdemon View Post



 I've admitted that there is definitely a possibility that they are sleeping together.  I've never said otherwise.  As of right now, Martin has left that open for the reader to decide.  The only thing I'm refuting is those who claim that they are sleeping together without a shadow of a doubt, when that's clearly not the case.  If Martin was to confirm a sexual relationship between the two in the next or last book, I'd be perfectly fine with that just as I would if he were to confirm otherwise.

 

As for the show, I happen to think them sleeping together adds nothing to either one of their characters or to the story itself.  Melisandre is already completely devoted to him since she believes he is Azor Ahai, and he is devoted to her doing anything to make him king.  Unless HBO makes up their own story and Melisandre actually does give him a son, what does the sex matter?


I think it serves a number of purposes: it makes it clear the degree to which Stannis is in her thrall; it fits with the idea of, as has been said, magic not being a snap-your-fingers easy thing in this world, but something that tends to be messy and complicated; and as we've touched on, it shows that Stannis is rather hypocritical about being Mr. By The Book when someone dangles the prospect of real success and power in front of his nose. In fact, a sexual relationship with Melisandre is a nice microcosm of Stannis's role--here's a guy who's been passed over his whole life, who's been left with very little to show for all his work, but clings to duty, honour and justice. Now he's suddenly offered the opportunity to get so much more than he would have thought possible, AND a rationalization for how it's "just"--it's almost Walter White-esque. Stannis isn't really a party animal, but deep down, a little part of him has to be high-fiving himself at how things have finally turned out in his favour. Sex with Mel is a great metaphor for that. (Add in, of course, the fact that he's dabbling in stuff he doesn't understand and being sucked dry by doing so...)

 

post #936 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialdemon View Post

Melisandre is already completely devoted to him since she believes he is Azor Ahai,


Is that really the case?  Or does she simply believe he's a believable Azor Ahai to those she needs to believe it?

post #937 of 4360

That is indeed the constant question with Melisandre, and why I was kind of disappointed that Martin gave her a POV chapter. Granted, you could write an out for anything in that chapter...

post #938 of 4360



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post


I think it serves a number of purposes: it makes it clear the degree to which Stannis is in her thrall; it fits with the idea of, as has been said, magic not being a snap-your-fingers easy thing in this world, but something that tends to be messy and complicated; and as we've touched on, it shows that Stannis is rather hypocritical about being Mr. By The Book when someone dangles the prospect of real success and power in front of his nose. In fact, a sexual relationship with Melisandre is a nice microcosm of Stannis's role--here's a guy who's been passed over his whole life, who's been left with very little to show for all his work, but clings to duty, honour and justice. Now he's suddenly offered the opportunity to get so much more than he would have thought possible, AND a rationalization for how it's "just"--it's almost Walter White-esque. Stannis isn't really a party animal, but deep down, a little part of him has to be high-fiving himself at how things have finally turned out in his favour. Sex with Mel is a great metaphor for that. (Add in, of course, the fact that he's dabbling in stuff he doesn't understand and being sucked dry by doing so...)

 


I agree that it does show him to be hypocritical, but there are other situations that will show that, such as having his brother killed so he could take his soldiers as well as being willing to sacrifice Edric Storm for the sake of his cause.   I think these do a far better job of showing his hypocrisy than having sex with Melisandre.

 

That being said, now that you mention it, I'm willing to admit it could potentially show just how enthralled Stannis is by her as long as the show builds on it.  If they leave her manipulations at just sex, then it wouldn't have as big of an impact as if they followed it up by something like him objecting to Renly's assassination and her convincing him to go through with it.

 

post #939 of 4360

This is such a weird thing for people to nitpick, it really is.

post #940 of 4360

I think some people are weirdly invested as Stannis as a noble figure--someone upthread called him a replacement for Ned Stark, which, NO--and see this as a betrayal. Kind of like how there are female fans who refuse to believe Renly's gay because they have a crush on him or something.

post #941 of 4360

If any character is a replacement for Ned Stark, it is Davos. A much more sympatheic figure. NOT Stannis.

post #942 of 4360

Whoa,  I wouldn't go that far with Stannis.  Ned was as near to incorruptible as you can get in the series.  He always did what was right even to his own detriment.  That definitely was not Stannis.

post #943 of 4360

To be clear, Ned Stark is everything Stannis wishes he was, plus the inclusion of actual compassion and empathy.

post #944 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

 Kind of like how there are female fans who refuse to believe Renly's gay because they have a crush on him or something.



For a long time, I thought the same of Portia Di Rossi. How could the hottest Bluth, the best corporate manager Veridian ever had, possibly be married to Ellen De Generes.  Her? Well, she can be funny.  I so wanted to make some pop pop with Portia.  Then I transfered my television crush to a much more accessible woman and moved on with my life.

post #945 of 4360

In this thread related news, was the guy having the serious conversation about farting after death Dolorous Ed Tollet? Besides that entire scene cracking me up, I kinda wished it had been this guy:

 

post #946 of 4360

I find it interesting that so many people call Stannis hypocritical, when if you look at his actions, they are all pretty consistent with his own moral code.  Sure, maybe his moral code isn't as honorable as Ned Stark's, but the guy has a set of principles he sticks to no matter what.  So I'd like to see what examples people have of him being a hypocrite.

 

Stannis was always fiercely loyal to Robert.  He never waivered in his duty to his older brother, even though Robert shit on him constantly and there was no real love between them.  He did as Robert always asked - took up arms against his king, held Storm's End against Mace Tyrell's siege, lead the assault on Dragonstone and took title to it even though Storm's End was wealthier because Robert needed a strong Ruler to keep the Targaryean loyalists on Dragonstone in line.  He also lead the sea assault on Pyke when Robert and Ned put down Greyjoy's rebellion, and he served on Robert's small council as Master of Ships until he fled after Jon Arryn's murder.  Honestly, I don't see anywhere here that speaks of hypocracy, since he served his brother loyally until Robert's death.

 

If you look at his actions, he always gives people a chance to comply with his moral code, and if they don't, then he feels justified in punishing them.  He gives Renly the chance to give up his claim and follow him - and honestly, according to the rules of Westeros, Renly was technically a "usurper" when it came to the line of succession.  When Renly refused, that's when Stannis felt justified in killing him.  He did the same thing to Courtnay Penrose, giving him the opportunity to surrender Storm's End before sending a shadow baby to kill him.  He refused to align with Rob Stark because he rightfully felt that the North should belong to the iron crown and not be it's own kingdom, and saw him as a lawless usurper just as he saw Balon Greyjoy of the same.  And Joffrey was not his brother's trueborn son, so he too was technically a usurper.  All the people he used magic against to kill were guilty of breaking the law as he saw it, because honestly, Dany aside, Stannis has the best claim to the throne.

 

And when Davos points out where he's going wrong, he always comes back to what is right and just (as he sees it), even if it goes against what Melisandre is counceling him.  So I fail to see where his behavior is hypocritical.  His character doesn't allow him to break his moral code, even when things are at their worst and most desperate (Like in the siege of Storm's End, or the Blizzard on the way to Winterfell).  People describe Stannis as brittle steel, he'll break before he bends.  There are no "half measures" with Stannis.  He would not break his wedding vows as his brother did, no matter what.  You can say that it makes perfect sense him and Mel would have sex to make shadow babies, but it also makes just as much sense that Mel could plunge a flaming stick into her hoo-ha and let that flame gestate into a shadow creature which she then poops out as needed.  Or she takes some of Stannis's blood and shoves it up her vaj to impregnate herself.  The fact is, we just don't know - the magic of the Red Priests aren't ever fully explained in the books.  But I'd argue that Stannis isn't the type of character to cheat on his wife, even if he wanted to.

 

On another note, when it comes to Jon Snow...

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

We know he's a warg, and after the events of Dance with Dragons, the theory is that he wargs into ghost after he dies, but Melisandre's vision sees him transform from man, to wolf, then back into man.  We know from the prologue that wargs can take over other people's bodies.  Does anyone think Jon will return as himself?  Or might he take over Stannis, thus proving Mel right that Stannis is, in fact, Azor Ahai because, well, he's actually Jon?

 

Just curious what the speculation is on that.

post #947 of 4360

You're being willfully obtuse at this point, but one last time: he sided with Robert, who was an usurper, against the Mad King. Probably the "right" thing to do, but a complete violation of the letter of the law. So the argument is that he's faithful to his family...except he then has his other brother killed and denounces his nephew (taking the word of an avowed traitor over his) when they stand in the way of the throne. There's no consistent principle here except "whatever principle leads to me being king."

 

Of course Stannis's actions can be argued as understandable and even morally correct, at least at first, but they sure as hell don't stick to the letter of the law, and that's how Stannis presents himself. He makes a big show of being legalistic about trivial shit (getting Jaime's title right while denouncing him) and even stuff like cutting off Davos's fingers, but when it comes to grabbing for power, he'll pursue whatever rationalization serves his purposes. In this case, "You are the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and you need to fuck me to make shadow babies in order to help defeat your enemies" sounds like exactly the kind of rationalization Stannis would embrace to cheat on his wife. He's not just randomly sleeping around, he's doing it for a Higher Purpose. Which just happens to involve getting to sleep with Carice Van Houten. Just like he's making a big show of being true to the law of the land, which just happens to involve him becoming king. Funny how things just keep working out for ol' Stannis, huh?

post #948 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

You're being willfully obtuse at this point, but one last time: he sided with Robert, who was an usurper, against the Mad King. Probably the "right" thing to do, but a complete violation of the letter of the law. So the argument is that he's faithful to his family...except he then has his other brother killed and denounces his nephew (taking the word of an avowed traitor over his) when they stand in the way of the throne. There's no consistent principle here except "whatever principle leads to me being king."

 

Of course Stannis's actions can be argued as understandable and even morally correct, at least at first, but they sure as hell don't stick to the letter of the law, and that's how Stannis presents himself. He makes a big show of being legalistic about trivial shit (getting Jaime's title right while denouncing him) and even stuff like cutting off Davos's fingers, but when it comes to grabbing for power, he'll pursue whatever rationalization serves his purposes. In this case, "You are the reincarnation of Azor Ahai and you need to fuck me to make shadow babies in order to help defeat your enemies" sounds like exactly the kind of rationalization Stannis would embrace to cheat on his wife. He's not just randomly sleeping around, he's doing it for a Higher Purpose. Which just happens to involve getting to sleep with Carice Van Houten. Just like he's making a big show of being true to the law of the land, which just happens to involve him becoming king. Funny how things just keep working out for ol' Stannis, huh?


Ned sided with Robert too, and his honor is supposed to be "impeachable," right?  I'd argue that Stannis was staying true to his liege lord against a tyrant.  But if you want to use that as an example of being "hypocritical," then fine, he chose family over his rightful king.  But nothing he has done up to this point could be considered a violation of the law.  Since Joffrey et all are not Robert's rightful children, by law, Stannis should be king.  Even Ned Stark said this, which is why Renly abandoned him.  No one (besides Danaereys) has a better claim to the throne than Stannis, and this "whatever principle leads to me being king" argument you have is correct via the letter of the law.  Stannis IS next in line of succession without any trueborn heirs from Robert.

 

So as you can see, his actions DO stick to the letter of the law.  He gives Renly a fair chance to drop his claim and join him, and when Renly refuses Stannis kills him for being a usurper to the throne, which can be argued is entirely justified.  Yes, Stannis took off Davos's fingers for being a smuggler, but he raised him to knighthood for being a hero as well.  That is the core of Stannis, he will give rewards when they are earned, as well as punishments.  I don't see why you'd say that is "obtuse" since that is the core of his character.

 

Stannis isn't grabbing at power, he's doing what it takes to back his rightful claim to the throne because LEGALLY he should be king.  But now he's being told he's also meant to be the savior of mankind, which adds a higher purpose to him pushing his claim, which is a big reason why he feels he must pursue it, even though in the books he makes it clear he really doesn't want the responsibility. 

 

And in the show, Mel did not tell him that fucking her would give him shadow babies that would kill his enemies.  It was "Fuck me and you shall have a son!"  So it wasn't some grand strategy at grabbing power for TV Stannis, it was just "I'm gonna cheat on my wife and break my vows because I want a son and you're hot and I can't control myself."  Which, if you look at how Stannis is portrayed in the books, is completely counter to his character.  So you can't argue the "Higher Purpose" card here since it's obvious TV Stannis was not aware of the magic Melisandre has in mind when she makes the offer to fuck him.  It's just Stannis being weak-willed and letcherous, something the Stannis of the books always saw as a weakness in Robert and would never do.  See my point?

 

I'm not saying it was a bad choice to make Stannis do this in the show.  I'm just saying its a RADICAL departure from the Stannis I know in the books.  I don't believe Stannis ever had sex with Melisandre in the books.  It's implied (not by the author, but other characters speculating), but never proven, so I can argue just as convincingly that he never had an affair with Melisandre as people can make the argument that they were getting it on.  The fact is, there's no proof for either side.  But knowing his character from the books, I'd say there's a strong argument he'd never do it.

 

All that aside though, you still haven't given any examples of his hypocracy other than he chose his brother over his king, and that was kinda a choice between family or death, so I don't really see how anyone can hold that against Stannis at all.

 

post #949 of 4360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post



Is that really the case?  Or does she simply believe he's a believable Azor Ahai to those she needs to believe it?



 Her POV chapter in ADWD doesn't seem to indicate that she's just using him for her own purposes.  Of course, that could all change (and probably will), but as of 5 books in, that's the status.

post #950 of 4360

Simon, in regards to your POV between Melisandre and Stannis, I completely agree.  However, I do have a few problems with Stannis' honor.  When he rebelled against Robert, he did go against his sworn oath to his king in favor of his blood, which most people would probably agree with.  But when it came time for him to take his rightful place as king, he was willing to destroy that same blood to help secure his throne.  This does feel a bit hypocritical to me.

 

Also, he was willing to sacrifice Edric Storm in order to wake dragons to aid his cause.  While he was highly conflicted about it, he still gave into Melisandre and agreed to murder an innocent (his own ward no less) in order to help him become king.

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