Plus it would have been a little humiliating for Bush to be there at Ground Zero.   It sort of underscores the fact that Bush failed to do what Obama succeeded at.   And Ron, great quote!    Also, if Obama failed at this mission, would we be hearing: "Thanks to Bush and Obama following his policies, we fucked up trying to get Osama and ended up starting a war with Pakistan".   Yeah I thought not.

www.ndtv.com/article/world/osama-zawahiri-in-northwest-pak-under-isi-protection-report-60587

Hey, check out the timestamp.

Of course, they could have just been taking shots at a dartboard with that one. I think at this point I would prefer a massive conspiracy by the government to trick us all about bin Laden's whereabouts. Because confirmation that it was the ISI protecting him fucking sucks.

Christiana Amanpour revealed Osama was in a villa in Pakistan in Bill Maher's show!!! :-)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-in-a-pakistan-villa-source-told-christiane-amanpour-in-2008.html

Now that I think about, this really kind of pisses me off. It's a fucking Bush league move.

Let's imagine the Allies - and specifically, U.S. troops - beat the Soviets into Berlin and find Hitler alive, and unarmed.

Do they

A) shoot him in the face 

or 

B) take him alive

This is why we're not the greatest generation, and it's not even a debate.

Not bothered by that at all, we weren't there so we only can go by the official accounts. It is a big "duh" that the preference here was to kill him, but if they're saying they thought he was a threat, he was a threat;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/osama-bin-laden-unarmed-during-raid_n_857257.html

That's a bunch of mealy-mouthed garbage about how people "won't care" if he were armed or not. And I guess that's true. But from an operational standpoint, and from an ethical standpoint, the preference should have been to capture him alive.

If there's one thing the last ten years of international news has brought home to me in stunning detail, it's that nothing that goes on in regards to international politics, diplomacy, the flexing of military muscle or countries foreign policies in general has any relation whatsoever to an 'ethical standpoint'.

The machinations of nation states have nothing - nothing - to do with morals or ethics.

That's why the ethical consideration was secondary. There is no way the 'treasure trove' of intelligence they found at the site (for which they had enough time to pick up, but not enough time to apprehend an unarmed OBL) could be as valuable as bin Laden himself in custody.

Getting any information from Bin Laden seems *extremely* unlikely. There are reports that they took away at least one person, which I'm not surprised at all, so there might be a capture that could fill in more details.

So what's going to happen with our relationship with Pakistan, that's what I'm really wondering about. It's kind of interesting how Pakistan is not protesting at all about us violating their sovereignty ... you would imagine this doesn't sit well with the population. But it seems the government is more concerned to keep the US happy than their own population.

BTW, hearing good things about this Frontline report;

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/fighting-for-bin-laden/ (will be repeated at 1AM and available online).

Some scallywag is using the Bluth model home as a picture for the Bin Laden villa on Google Maps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov 

Now that I think about, this really kind of pisses me off. It's a fucking Bush league move.

 

Let's imagine the Allies - and specifically, U.S. troops - beat the Soviets into Berlin and find Hitler alive, and unarmed.

 

Do they

 

A) shoot him in the face 

 

or 

 

B) take him alive

 

This is why we're not the greatest generation, and it's not even a debate.

Honestly Zhukov, I think you're pretty much on your own. First of all, I'm not vehemently opposed to assassination. It's preferable to war in some cases. Not saying that's the only criteria (and it wasn't in this case) but it is fucking bin Laden. Also, the standing orders are for anyone who surrenders completely to not get shot in the head. Bin Laden didn't surrender.

On a "rules of engagement" level, I don't think Hitler and Osama even stand on equal footing. One was an elected leader with a standing army engaged in an official act of war. The other was pretty fucking far from that. Those were fine rules for different times that could afford to have them. We don't live in those times anymore. And to expect everyone to pretend as if we do is, for lack of better word, nostalgic. Now, I'm not saying that we should completely abandon those ideals but what happened on Sunday isn't a definitive sign that we have abandoned those ideals. Lost a certain innocence perhaps, but we're not as bad as our enemies. I am reminded of Golda Meir's speech to Eric Bana in Munich.

Besides, covert wars are messy as fuck. I think a much more apt comparison would be the way the French resistance fought in WW2. That shit was ugly but nobody could blame them for taking desperate measures. Not saying we're desperate, but we're trying to bring justice to people who are hiding in hostile (to us) territory.

http://www.chud.com/community/forum/thread/66912/classified-letters-regarding-fbi-whistleblower-sibel-edmonds/100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibel_Edmonds

http://911reports.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/sibel-edmonds-vs-the-nuclear-terrorists/

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/01/06/the-%E2%80%9Cexceptionally-%E2%80%9Credacted-911-commission-interview/

http://larryflynt.com/?tag=roy-blunt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0pM5FoYbs

" Albright thinks Bush hiding bin Laden

World Net Daily

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told Fox News Channel analyst Morton Kondracke yesterday she suspects President Bush knows the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and is simply waiting for the most politically expedient moment to announce his capture.

Kondracke made the announcement about what Albright told him backstage before an appearance on another Fox show on "Special Report With Brit Hume."
Kondracke was incredulous that a former secretary of state could believe something like that about a U.S. administration.

"She was not smiling when she said this," offered Kondracke, who believes Albright is serious about the conspiracy theory.

Albright is on a media tour to promote her new book, "Madam Secretary, A Memoir."

Obama's face while Seth Myer was telling that Osama Bin Laden joke.....

Now we know why his grin is so big.   Also the joke about Trump "making the decisions that would keep me up at night" is far more devastating when you realize what he had riding on his legacy when telling jokes Saturday night.  

First, the Somali pirates, then that operation in Yemen, and now OBL?   I gotta say, I like Obama's style when it comes to dealing with America's enemies.  Send an elite unit in, take care of business, and get out.   This guy who ran on domestic issues is making quite a name for himself in foriegn policy.   Who would've thunk it?

Personally, and I'm biased as I served, but I think if anyone could take someone alive it would have been Seal Team 6. If they were ordered to shoot on sight that sucks but I'm not going to grab my fiddle and start playing something sad for bin Laden. If he was alive now we would have people bellyaching over just HOW he's being interrogated for information. Maybe I'm just another stupid hick that grew up in Appalachia but if you have a mad dog you put him down, it's better for everyone that way. We'll probably never know exactly what happened, look at all the conflicting information.

It's a god damn shame that so many people are upset about this and I would love to wake up tomorrow in a world where my daughters had never heard words like assassination or terrorism but we have our realities. It's easy to say that our parents or grandparents grew up in a simpler time when men were men and knew right from wrong and the USA stood for truth and justice and the American way. This isn't a movie though and sometimes you have to settle, as a person and as a nation. I'm sure there isn't a person here that wouldn't have liked to see that son of a bitch stand trial for what he's done and pull the end of a rope tight when it was over because if we can all agree on one thing it's that he was guilty. We all want to hold our heads up and think that we were the bigger "man" but at the end of the day the outcome would have been the same.

Don't be ashamed or angry. Fuck him. *shrugs*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov 

Now that I think about, this really kind of pisses me off. It's a fucking Bush league move.

 

Let's imagine the Allies - and specifically, U.S. troops - beat the Soviets into Berlin and find Hitler alive, and unarmed.

 

Do they

 

A) shoot him in the face 

 

or 

 

B) take him alive

 

This is why we're not the greatest generation, and it's not even a debate.

How is this even a question?  In a storming the bunker situation, Hitler gets it in the face, and there are a hell of a lot more than five deaths, on both sides.  Short of everyone in Hitler's bunker dropping their weapons and walking out the door before any Allied troops even enter the building, it can't end any other way.  And your hypothetical is fucking retarded in the first place, because Hitler never would have been unarmed in his bunker while Allied forces were taking Berlin. 

As soon as it becomes a firefight, everyone is a potential threat.  It's amazing that only five people were killed.

You need to pick one conspiracy and stick to it, dude.  First Osama has been dead since December 2001, now the ISI has had him in custody since at least October of last year.  Will the plans for his orbital death ray, funded jointly by the Pakistani government and stolen funds from the Afghani and Iraqi reconstruction efforts be amongst the intel found in his compound?

That face Obama made is well on its way to becoming a rage face meme on Reddit. The "You have no idea" face.

And concerning Osama's fate, you really have to be realistic. At this point, you either capture him alive and make him disappear so you can use him for whatever or you kill him on the spot. The absolute shit storm a Bin Laden trial would create the world over would be unprecedented. And frankly, people at either side of this debate should stop using anything WW2 related as an argument. Other than people killing people, the current stuff have zero in common with what happened then, either during or after the war. The reasons, the scale, the mobilization, the consequences, the politcs, the crimes, eveyrthing was different.

This was an assassination, plain and simple.  So what?  We pay the President and his aides to do the cost/benefit analysis of whether or not its worth capturing him alive.  You guys can conjecture all you want, but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.  They've earned it.

My friends on Facebook are currently hating me(and a few other friends) for being conspiracy theorists, but I'm among the gang who thinks he's been dead for years. Being on the move in caves, for years(often being bombed), while on dialysis... Even with the equipment, specialists, generators, etc, doesn't compute.

Doubt we'll ever know the 100% truth on this one without them doing a traveling Jesse James-style roadshow(whoops too late for that one), but I'm glad he's dead as fuck, either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluelouboyle 

Exactly. Bin Laden alive would be a nightmare. And do you think the US (and the allies) always followed the rules of engagement in WW2?

Or put it this way: If I had a been a soldier on that mission, I absolutely would have shot him in the face. Twice.

In the middle of a firefight, instead of surrendering, he made a move.. Mass murderers don't get the benefit of the doubt. 

Calling it an assassination is disingenuous. They could've just dropped a bomb on his head. This was a military strike against known hostiles (to put it mildly), with a time limit as the Pakistani military/police could have shown up at any moment. Anyone expecting the use of kid gloves in that situation comes off as naive in the extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus-7 

My friends on Facebook are currently hating me(and a few other friends) for being conspiracy theorists, but I'm among the gang who thinks he's been dead for years. Being on the move in caves, for years(often being bombed), while on dialysis... Even with the equipment, specialists, generators, etc, doesn't compute.

 

Doubt we'll ever know the 100% truth on this one without them doing a traveling Jesse James-style roadshow(whoops too late for that one), but I'm glad he's dead as fuck, either way.

So we just staged an assault on a compound within an ally's borders without informing them... as a dog and pony show?

That. Is. Retarded.

The good news for you is that they're considering releasing what are likely some truly disturbing images, just so people whose minds jump from A to ZeFuck? can sleep easier. Yay!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus-7 

My friends on Facebook are currently hating me(and a few other friends) for being conspiracy theorists, but I'm among the gang who thinks he's been dead for years. Being on the move in caves, for years(often being bombed), while on dialysis... Even with the equipment, specialists, generators, etc, doesn't compute.

 

Doubt we'll ever know the 100% truth on this one without them doing a traveling Jesse James-style roadshow(whoops too late for that one), but I'm glad he's dead as fuck, either way.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/05/02/6570172-clarifying-osama-bin-laden-myths

Bin Ladin suffered from kidney stones, not kidney failure.  He didn't need dialysis. 

He also wasn't in caves.

Further, if he's been dead for "years" why announce it now?  What purpose does it serve?  It's no guarantee of re-election, and if the purpose was to help secure re-election they certainly timed it damn poorly considering the actual election is still almost a year and a half away.  So once again:  Is the supposition that the government is smart enough and capable enough to pull off a multinational bipartisan conspiracy without any "leaks" but not smart enough to time their "bombshell" properly?

-THAT- "does not compute."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus-7 

My friends on Facebook are currently hating me(and a few other friends) for being conspiracy theorists, but I'm among the gang who thinks he's been dead for years. Being on the move in caves, for years(often being bombed), while on dialysis... Even with the equipment, specialists, generators, etc, doesn't compute.

 

Doubt we'll ever know the 100% truth on this one without them doing a traveling Jesse James-style roadshow(whoops too late for that one), but I'm glad he's dead as fuck, either way.

From what we now know he was in caves up to the battle of Tora Bora which was at the end of 2001, we think this guy might have been in that compound for 5/6 years. It's not unreasonable to image he was hanging out at other people's homes in between.

Have you been watching the news???

Personally, I don't think Osama Bin Laden even existed. Look at the Democratic ticket from 2008: Obama/Biden.

Now, that's a cleverly placed B there in the "President"'s name. But if you change that an S? Suddenly things start looking a little too coincidental.

And on 9/11, what was the biggest city in America to avoid attack? That's right, Los Angeles. Home of the liberals, gays and liberal gays. Of course that wasn't on this "Osama"'s agenda. Not Los Angeles. Not L A.

N.L.A.

Slot those three letters into the middle of our vice president's name.

Finally, the TRUTH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight

 

 

The good news for you is that they're considering releasing what are likely some truly disturbing images, just so people whose minds jump from A to ZeFuck? can sleep easier. Yay!

We both know releasing the photos will do nothing to satisfy the loons. Two - TWO! - birth certificates later, and the wingnuts still don't believe them.

I don't expect the photos of OBL to silence the conspiracy theorists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

Personally, I don't think Osama Bin Laden even existed. Look at the Democratic ticket from 2008: Obama/Biden.

 

Now, that's a cleverly placed B there in the "President"'s name. But if you change that an S? Suddenly things start looking a little too coincidental.

 

And on 9/11, what was the biggest city in America to avoid attack? That's right, Los Angeles. Home of the liberals, gays and liberal gays. Of course that wasn't on this "Osama"'s agenda. Not Los Angeles. Not L A.

 

N.L.A.

 

Slot those three letters into the middle of our vice president's name.

 

Finally, the TRUTH.

Can't...stop...laughing!

Though the terrifying part of this is that somewhere on the internet, someone will read this and immediately assume it's gospel truth.

On the domestic political front here in the States, serving bin Laden a lead sandwich instead of taking him alive spares us the embarrassment of arguing with ourselves about whether we're capable of treating a prisoner of war humanely and whether we're too gutless and craven to even hold a trial.

So sure, if it allows us to be one country again for a few days, go ahead and revoke the bastard's breathing license right on the spot. Fuck him.

Killing bin Laden, as opposed to capturing him, was the best choice, for all the reasons stated above. And my at-best-ambivelance at the appropriateness of dancing in the street when we've assassinated someone aside, I will admit to not giving one little shit about whether he was armed, resisting, or bending over and asking for a rifle rim job. A shot to the head was a far cleaner death than he'd earned.

"Well, he should have armed himself" - Will Munny

I am dying, DYING, for the usual Republican suspects to start in on t his "oh he was unarmed" handwringing. Please don't let us down, hypocrites of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 

Have they said what they're doing with that $25 million in reward money?  I say split it up and give it to those SEALs.  They earned that payday.

I forget his name, but I read that one construction worker/vigilante who came back from Pakistan empty handed (and who was on the David Letterman show a while back) wants a cut of the reward money. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

I am dying, DYING, for the usual Republican suspects to start in on t his "oh he was unarmed" handwringing. Please don't let us down, hypocrites of the world.

That's already happening, sort of. Shep Smith and Judge Napolitano at Fox are saying it was an illegal action from the US govt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica 

"Well, he should have armed himself" - Will Munny

"Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."
 

Random thought; can you imagine what would happen if it was revealed that the SEAL who shot bin Laden was gay?

Five bucks that this year's Call of Duty will have the Killing Osama Bin Laden mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica 

That's already happening, sort of. Shep Smith and Judge Napolitano at Fox are saying it was an illegal action from the US govt.

Maybe in the aspect of "invading Pakistan" but in terms of killing Bin Laden?  He wasn't a national leader, he was a self-admitted terrorist/enemy combatant (though I hate to use those words)...it's a whole different ball of wax.  I also doubt he was peaceably surrendering though the remote possibility is there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/04/shep-smith-bin-laden-illegal_n_857356.html

Judge Napolitaion: Bin Laden was illegally mudered

http://www.mediaite.com/online/judge-napolitano-to-fox-radio-host-osama-bin-laden-was-illegally-murdered/

Who would have imagined these Fox headlines 3 years ago?

White House will NOT release photo of Osama bin Laden. Another good call by the administration.

President Obama told 60 Minutes that he will not release the photos of Osama bin Laden after he was killed. 

Said Obama: "The risks of release outweigh the benefits. Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."

He added: "Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet. Osama bin Laden is not a trophy -- he is dead and let's now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated."

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica 

White House will NOT release photo of Osama bin Laden. Another good call by the administration.

I agree that it's the right thing to do, but the already screechy conspiracy theorists and hypocrites on the right are going to be unbearably bitchy for a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

I agree that it's the right thing to do, but the already screechy conspiracy theorists and hypocrites on the right are going to be unbearably bitchy for a while.

 

That could work to the president's advantage, see the birther issue.
 

I love that the Dali Lama pretty much gave the op a thumbs up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Myers 

Five bucks that this year's Call of Duty will have the Killing Osama Bin Laden mission.

Shouldn't be too tough, they already have the level map.

As for the unknown (and likely forever classified) shooter, here's a vague Profile of a Badass, "a man who 'flunked vacation and flunked relaxing.'"

Yeah, not releasing the photos is the smart move.

Is it bad that I'm still shocked when the President makes the smart move? I've been grading on a curve for far too long...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

Yeah, not releasing the photos is the smart move.

 

Is it bad that I'm still shocked when the President makes the smart move? I've been grading on a curve for far too long...

 I think the shock is that the smart move is being made more than once a year. We all need time to adjust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Myers 

Five bucks that this year's Call of Duty will have the Killing Osama Bin Laden mission.

No, no, it'll be a zombie Bin Laden. Killing Osama is old news. We want a zombie Bin Laden!

As for not releasing the photo that's what the Republicans will harp on. As said above, FOX News is already jumping on the "it was illegal" angle so the "not releasing the photo will bring more attacks!" angle is another one. They needed something and these two "issues" are it.

No, ElCap, I don't watch the news. Last time I was glued to the tube was post-tsunami. I don't even get television, and only occasionally listen to NPR, read CNN, BBC, etc. 

This is why I only lurk in here usually, being wildly misinformed and such. Thanks for correcting me without being pricks. Carry on, ladies and gents.

FUCKER'S DEAD! WOOO!

Which is going to be VERY funny because they're in a weird area where a LOT of the gun-ho, gun-loving crowd that would normally be on Fox and their ilk's side will turn on them and support Obama just based on this one issue. It's only a certain and small-ish segment, but still, it's one the conservatives normally have in the bag.

Reuters goes ahead and releases gory post-raid photos of their own. Servers are unresponsive;

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/04/us-binladen-pakistan-photos-idUSTRE74370620110504

Yeah, the whole article is down now.

I have to say that I felt great when I heard the news about OBL's death, but the more details that come out the more I get scared that we could be entering a Pat Tillman situation.  I want to see the photos because I want to hold my government accountable for its actions.  I am a US citizen and I do want to trust our President, military, or CIA on their word, but they have not shown that they are altogether honest all the time.  

I definitely believe he is dead.  I am assuming the SEALS did their thing going in there with the intent to capture, but prepared to kill if need be.  I understand that, even unarmed, any threatening action could be a grenade or gun and could mean the deaths of everyone in the room.  The problem is with no body, no autopsy, etc, there is no way to know.  Especially since the legal questions brought up by the Fox News and the German paper ARE real.  

As we say we don't want to be a country that tortures, we also don't want to be a country that executes people.  And I'll be fine if he kinda even just raised his eyebrow when the SEALs come in and shot him.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.  I just don't want to think we put a gun to his face while people watched and pulled the trigger.  We are better than that and the photos should prove it.

Maybe I'm in the minority and I don't believe the above is a liberal or conservative viewpoint.  Do you?

I still can't believe how awful Sarah Palin is. She calls releasing the photo "part of the mission", refers to not doing it as "pussy-footing around". Yeah, because not releasing the photo of a guy whose cranium you just ventilated is "pussy-footing around".  Posting the video of Nick Berg having his head cut off was part of Muntada al-Ansar's mission. That shit, is barbarism, that is what they do. Does she (and people like her) actually believe that showing a picture of a dead Bin Laden is going to put the fear of God into and dissuade from action a suicide bomber?  Sweet Pete, I can't fucking wait for this woman to disappear.