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The Importance of Authentic Decadence

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

I considered starting a thread related to depictions of cigarette smoking on film and what it means today, but I figured Thank You For Smoking covered that (only villains and Russians). Instead, it occurred to me that I've been taken out of a movie before when it became obvious that an actor portraying a character that is smoking has never smoked a cigarette in their life.

 

Case in point: Natalie Portman as Mathilda in Leon.  Yes I understand she was twelve at the time, but since it was important to establish the character's false sense of maturity the smoking was important. As is, it's completely masked and there's no apparent inhaling, which takes me out of the scene every time. Compare that to, say, Brad Renfro in The Client: that's a kid that looks like he's been smoking for years (for better or for worse).

 

Which brings me to the title. For the sake of argument, I'm defining decadence as smoking, drinking, and any sort of illegal drug usage (although feel free to add parameters). Too often do actors resort to standard cues to signify drunkenness: laughing, squinting, pointing, stumbling. All of these things are, of course, actual symptons of being drunk, but it's a dead giveaway when an actor is exaggerating from lack of experience (not even talking comedies here, dramas suffer from this as well).

 

Which brings me to drug usage. Obviously I'm not asking for method acting here, although Robert Downey Jr.'s past certainly informs an element of his choices as Tony Stark and I can buy that Johnny Depp has done everything in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. All I ask is that the actors look comfortable and familiar with their environment. Case in point, Brad Pitt in True Romance: I completely buy him as a stoner.

 

Illegal drug usage is generally depicted in movies as something characters have to overcome. While I don't smoke anything myself, I do appreciate, for instance, the scene in Going the Distance when Drew Barrymore and Justin Long smoke out, look completely comfortable with it, and the movie moves on and never mentions it again. Compare that Eyes Wide Shut, when Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman smoking out is shot as something scandalous, and even leads to an outrageous confrontation on Kidman's part (smoking made me admit to fantasizing about cheating on you, ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!).

 

As mentioned above, if "good guys" smoke in contemporary movies it has to be pointed out that it's bad for them (even if it takes place in the past ie. The King's Speech). If people drink there's generally absurd consequences. Illegal drug usage is more often than not the focus of the movie if the protagonist partakes (Trainspotting, Requiem for a Dream). Very rarely are these elements of a film simply presented, as often they are used to signify "bad" choices on the part of the characters involved. If that's so, then it's important that said actors refine the way they depict those elements.

 

So, what are the most authentic depictions of decadence on film, and what are so fake that you can't help but cringe?

 

post #2 of 29

Cool idea for a thread.  I can't think of any cinematic examples off the top of my head, but I do recall being in an acting class where several classmates had to play a scene where they were smoking outside of a bar.  SO STIFF.  You could tell that none of the girls had ever smoked before.  They were so busy trying to look like they were smoking that their stiffness drew all attention to the stiffness (if that makes any sense).  They smoked like Nazis.

 

Of course, this was all just rehearsal, so it's understandable.  But I felt like I could do a better job smoking casually while delivering lines.  And I've never smoked a day in my life.  All I know about the smooth smooth taste of hammy cigarette-acting comes from John Travolta!

post #3 of 29

My favorite is from The Breakfast Club, where they posit that smoking weed causes you to dance like a maniac and break glass with your barbaric yell.  

 

 

post #4 of 29

My favourite remains some after school special where a kid finds his brother's coke stash and somehow ends dead, face down in the pool.

post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 

Adding another parameter: sex. It baffles me to no end when a cinematic woman, mid-coitus, is still wearing her bra. I'm not talking about a sexual situation in which the couple was so hot and bothered they couldn't even get their clothes off. I'm saying when it's obvious the actress didn't want to do nudity: for instance, Alexie Gilmore in World's Greatest Dad during a pretty standard sex session (under the covers no less), or recently in Bridesmaids when Jon Hamm and Kristen Wiig have apparently been going at it for a while, from multiple angles, but she's still brassiered.

 

Now I'm not begging for boobs, but there are ways to film around naked people. Continuing this theme, post-coital clothes. Apparently in the movies after sex people put on their underwear, a shirt, or even pajamas, and then go to sleep. The worst is the post-sex conversation when the couple is still naked, but covering themselves up with bedsheets. Why suddenly so shy? Kudos to Love & Other Drugs for depicting a realistic couple, lying around in bed naked just talking.

post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

 Continuing this theme, post-coital clothes. Apparently in the movies after sex people put on their underwear, a shirt, or even pajamas, and then go to sleep. The worst is the post-sex conversation when the couple is still naked, but covering themselves up with bedsheets. Why suddenly so shy? Kudos to Love & Other Drugs for depicting a realistic couple, lying around in bed naked just talking.



fuck, I do both of those things because, unless it's summer, it's fucking cold and it's the only way to get a decent FULL nights sleep after and who wants to have a post coital chat when you're shivering in a sweaty heap!  But then I'm old and married, I'm sure if I was still int he throes of young buckdom it'd be different.

 

Back to the thread.  I like 'decadence' when it's not a big deal.  An example would be Episode 1 of Spaced.  near the end Tim is skinning up (and falls asleep into his papers) but they never go "I'm about to skin up!" - it's just something people do.  Also the clubbing episode has that whole 'you're my best frienda nd let me tell you something..' bs while on E down to a tee.


Worst would be something I caught last night - 'How I met your mother' for some bizzare reason they turn whats clearly meant to be finding a joint into finding a sandwich and then go on about how  'I used to be able to finish a whole sandwich, could we grown sandwich in our back garden.' blah blahblah.  What was the point?  At least when they did that in Roseanne back in the day their reactions were bang on (wasted paranoia)

post #7 of 29

 

I quit smoking a number of years ago, but back when I was often seen with a pack of camels in my pocket, I remember finding the smoking in 3000 Miles to Graceland to be glorified almost to the point of fetish.  It has been years since I saw the film, but it seemed like every character smoked in that cool-badass sort of way that makes impressionable youths want to light up, which considering the kind of amoral tone that the films took, might have been the point.

 

There wasn’t much in that movie that was convincing, but Costner sure smoked the hell out of those cigarettes!

post #8 of 29

I don't think ANYONE ever gets it right regarding sex. Either it moves too quickly, the humping is too exaggerated, or there's just random clothing where it shouldn't be.

 

Fun fact: "Withnail And I" star Richard E. Grant had never had a drink in his life when they shot that movie.

post #9 of 29

Usually when you see women smoking cigarettes in modern films it signifies that they are 1) total sluts or 2) "Wordly Wise".

post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Usually when you see women smoking cigarettes in modern films it signifies that they are 1) total sluts or 2) "Wordly Wise".

 

Or total badasses.  See, for example, Winona Ryder at the conclusion of Heathers: "Heather, my love, there's a new sheriff in town."
 

 

post #11 of 29


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Case in point: Natalie Portman as Mathilda in Leon.  Yes I understand she was twelve at the time, but since it was important to establish the character's false sense of maturity the smoking was important. As is, it's completely masked and there's no apparent inhaling, which takes me out of the scene every time.

 


That scene never really bothered me. I don't think she had a false sense of maturity more than she was trying to achieve maturity, her inexperience at smoking heightened this fact. Everything her character was doing was an act of mimicry of adulthood.

 

post #12 of 29

Remember when there was a recent fear/ado that movies were going to receive a harsher rating because of smoking? Well I guess not. RANGO was filled with smoking critters. They do mention it in the rating caveat message.

post #13 of 29

The Verdict had it down.  Newman drunk was.......just perfect.

post #14 of 29

I'd say Goodfellas is one of the best "drugs are glamorous" films out there. Sure the mob Henry Hill runs with are broken apart and go to jail for their lifestyle (and Henry contributes to that enormously due to his use and dealings in Cocaine). But damn if the film doesn't make that life style appealing.

post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

I'd say Goodfellas is one of the best "drugs are glamorous" films out there. Sure the mob Henry Hill runs with are broken apart and go to jail for their lifestyle (and Henry contributes to that enormously due to his use and dealings in Cocaine). But damn if the film doesn't make that life style appealing.



Whoa. You actually think the coke portion of the film looks appealing? I don't know if you've ever done it, but if THAT looks appealing you need to stay far, far away from the Columbian Marching Powder. Because it will live up to your dreams and then some. 

 

 

post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post





Whoa. You actually think the coke portion of the film looks appealing? I don't know if you've ever done it, but if THAT looks appealing you need to stay far, far away from the Columbian Marching Powder. Because it will live up to your dreams and then some. 

 

 

Ah come on, Hill gets into all the "cool" clubs, everybody knows him, he gets anything he wants (though his tastes make that pretty easy) etc. It's only in the final third of the film that the Blow starts to take over. But even then, you don't see too much of the shitty, awful thinks that real people on coke do. I know this is because of the fact that this is Hill's version of events. I'm simply commenting on how it's portrayed.

 

And compare this to the way drugs are portrayed in, trainspotting for a counter example.
 

 


Edited by Cylon Baby - 5/31/11 at 7:09pm
post #17 of 29


Interesting idea for a thread.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post


Worst would be something I caught last night - 'How I met your mother' for some bizzare reason they turn whats clearly meant to be finding a joint into finding a sandwich and then go on about how  'I used to be able to finish a whole sandwich, could we grown sandwich in our back garden.' blah blahblah.  What was the point?  At least when they did that in Roseanne back in the day their reactions were bang on (wasted paranoia)


Because of my undying love for HIMYM, I must correct this. The sandwich thing is a running joke that they've done 2 or 3 times I think, and it's because the future narrator is telling the story to his kids, so he replaces "weed" with "sandwich".

 

post #18 of 29

I've never really watched HIMYM, but that strikes me as an odd thing to get demure about, as every time I flip past Neil Patrick Harris is explaining some obscure sexual position in detail and boasting about how he lied to some woman about having cancer in order to use it. 

post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 

Speaking of NPH, that brings up a particular decadent archetype: the sleazy friend. For some reason there's always a straight-laced, boyscout-ish protagonist that somehow fell in with the "cool" friend that's a big partier and womanizer.

 

I'm reminded of Curtis Armstrong as Miles in Risky Business with his "what the fuck" and Robert Romanus as Damone in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. What I appreciate about both is their bark is proven to be worse than their bite.

 

NPH on HIMYM, however, is all bite.

post #20 of 29

Deadwood had some of the most realistic drunk acting that I've ever seen. Yes, there was always the layer of unbeleivability in terms of the language and ability to process complex thoughts while slamming back copious amounts of whiskey for the characters, but the actual mannerisms like the slurring of words and stumbling, and also the ratcheting affect of the booze on a persons temperment, as well as the random associations and misunderstandings that come about when one is drunk was nailed dead on.

 

On the opposite spectrum, and I'm not sure why this has stuck out to me so much, but it has, in the last episode of the Walking Dead, the guy who plays the main character had some of the worst dunk acting I've ever seen. Just way overplayed it.

 

This is a good subject, even if it brings up one of the most incensing trends in film today: the tsk-tsking of characters smoking for no reason other than political correctness. The King's Speech and also Stranger Than Fiction being prime examples. As if those movies weren't infuriating pieces of shit already, they have to go and moralize, as if us smokers in the audience are gonna give a shit what some fictional fucking character thins about us lighting up.

post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
that brings up a particular decadent archetype: the sleazy friend.


From my experience/observation though, stoners tend to hang together. I don't know too many groups of friends that have one "Shaggy". ZOINKS!

 

post #22 of 29

I always find it jarring when I'm watching Reservoir Dogs and at the beginning it's pretty obvious that Mr. White's cigarette isn't even lit.

post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Moonrocket View Post

I always find it jarring when I'm watching Reservoir Dogs and at the beginning it's pretty obvious that Mr. White's cigarette isn't even lit.



You mean when he lights Mr. Pink's cigarette, then goes to light his own and doesn't?  I always thought he didn't light his own intentionally, as if to say he used to smoke and was trying to stop..  merely trying to calm down Mr. Pink, but that's just me.

post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 

I mentioned this in the post-release thread, but The Hangover II did not convince me that Bangkok is one of the most dangerous places on Earth, or that the boys had a wilder night than in the first movie.

 

New addition to the parameters: violence. Many, including myself, were dissapointed in Live Free or Die Hard because it lacked the obligatory red mist. The unrated director's cut didn't help either, because the blood was obviously CGI and not squibs (this was also a criticism of parts of Kick-Ass and The Expendables).

 

As well, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part I was criticized for its portrayal of Hermione's torture not being as "brutal" as in the book. Unfortunately that's a sympton of a bigger problem in geek culture: needing our properties to be grim & gritty in order to validate our interests as adult. This isn't quite as equivalent with Harry Potter, because that actually was in the book, but it's a bad trend in comic books and comic book movies (the rape of Sue Dibny, the supposed Dark Knight-ifying of a Captain Marvel movie).

 

It's a fine line, and dependent on context, but violence is important to make a point in film. Pan's Labyrinth is a great example of how violence can create a contrast between the adult world and the child's world.

post #25 of 29

HIMYM is a little different because there's no indication that the narrator is telling his kids about Barney's exploits. Occasionally he'll mention something about Barney's new friend but then we're the ones who get to see the details, not the kids. 

 

Likewise there's the episode where the narrator called one of the characters a cunt, and it's done repeatedly, but it's changed to Grinch for the purpose of telling the kids.  

post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Adding another parameter: sex. It baffles me to no end when a cinematic woman, mid-coitus, is still wearing her bra. I'm not talking about a sexual situation in which the couple was so hot and bothered they couldn't even get their clothes off. I'm saying when it's obvious the actress didn't want to do nudity: for instance, Alexie Gilmore in World's Greatest Dad during a pretty standard sex session (under the covers no less), or recently in Bridesmaids when Jon Hamm and Kristen Wiig have apparently been going at it for a while, from multiple angles, but she's still brassiered.

 

Now I'm not begging for boobs, but there are ways to film around naked people. Continuing this theme, post-coital clothes. Apparently in the movies after sex people put on their underwear, a shirt, or even pajamas, and then go to sleep. The worst is the post-sex conversation when the couple is still naked, but covering themselves up with bedsheets. Why suddenly so shy? Kudos to Love & Other Drugs for depicting a realistic couple, lying around in bed naked just talking.


Just came back from a screening of Friends With Benefits and was constantly reminded of your post.  The degree to which Timberlake and Kunis are covered up with blankets during their sex scenes was silly.  The movie was rated R but was completely ashamed of it. 

 

Not that it really matters.  Aside from enjoying the chemistry between the two leads, the movie was largely dull and unfunny.  Not a movie worth starting a dedicated thread for, hahahaha.  I can't even imagine how much worse No Strings Attached was (just an assumption... hehehe)

 

post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 

Haha, exactly! Why base an entire plot around sex only to shy away from the subject?

 

Here's another parameter: Language, as in Harsh Language.

 

I've been known to talk like a sailor at times, but there's a certain rhythm to swearing that lends itself to either (a) inserting a "fuck" or two at an organic spot in the sentence or (b) mindlessly swearing too much out of anger or ignorance.

 

Some screenwriters have trouble pulling this off (or the actors can't pull off the words). Rob Zombie comes to mind. It's a fine line where the speaker seems to be either thinking too much about how they're talking or too little.

 

I'm not sure if I'm articulating how I'd like to here. Let's think of it this way: cinema often uses foul language as a signifier for individuals that are crude, aggressive, ignorant, lower-class, or counter-culture. However, when everyone in the movie (re. RZ's Halloween) talks the same way, cussing loses its impact.

 

A good example of harsh language being used to maximum effect is in Your Highness. Since Danny McBride, mostly, is alone in his anachronistic language, it's simultaneously funny and speaks volumes about the character.

 

The works of Quentin Tarantino (specifically Pulp Fiction) can go either way. Sometimes the cussing is like poetry, sometimes the actors feel a little uncomfortable.

 

The worst use of "fuck" in film history? Catherine Zeta-Jones in High Fidelity. Her big "Fuck! Fuck fuck fuck!" moment is so awkward, it sounds like she's got cotton balls in her cheeks.

post #28 of 29

Knocked Up has a shockingly accurate depiction of a mushroom trip.  The chair bit might seem really broad and goofy unless you've actually seen people take them. 

 

Hollywood likes to portray taking ecstasy as turning you into a walking boner, but for my money the best depiction is Party Down's episode at the porn awards.  Lizzy Kaplan is good, but Adam Scott is terrific.

post #29 of 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Hollywood likes to portray taking ecstasy as turning you into a walking boner, but for my money the best depiction is Party Down's episode at the porn awards.  Lizzy Kaplan is good, but Adam Scott is terrific.


I think Spaced gets it right most of the time too.  Its been mentioned earlier, but the clubbing episode really nails all the chattiness and irresistible urge to move to the beat that comes from rolling.  One of my favorite gags in the whole show is Tyres dancing in the middle of the street to the beeping crosswalk thingy.  Its silly, but after some long days at electronic/dance music festivals (oh college life, how I miss you), I've been there.

 

The substance abuse found sprinkled throughout Apatow's canon also feels pretty authentic for the most part.  Knocked Up and Pineapple Express are the obvious ones (Franco always looks perpetually stoned in everything), but Lindsay smoking up for the first time and her eventual freak-out in Freaks and Geeks is pretty great.

 

 

 

 

 

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