TAG TEAM REVIEW: GAME OF THRONES EP. 6

Re: Sansa -- Do you guys not know any actual spoiled teenagers?

Man, you guys are brutal. I think this is regularly the harshest review of this show I come across on the web. Not that a lot of your points aren't accurate, but to me they're not nearly as significant as you make them out to be. I mean, I can accept I'm the only person on the face of the planet who doesn't hate Sansa, but Viserys has been a really well-realized character by Harry Lloyd, and in a way I'm sad to see him go (while, in another way, that fucking ruled).

While I'd like to see the budget increased as well, I don't care as much about the sparse tournament or hunting scenes--I mean, I'm a guy who can watch classic Star Trek all day long and just go with the idea that an entire planet is made of red styrofoam. It's the curse of TV, and given that these guys have to portray a massive world (even a massive-budget show like Rome was able to keep most of the action within a single location), the seams are going to show sometimes. Likewise, it sounds like there were some real problems training the dogs/direwolves, so I'm willing to cut them some slack on scenes like the Wildings business, though it's still bizarre that they're so rarely even on the screen.

You're right about their weird handling of Littlefinger, though. He bounces back and forth between awesome and kind of weird. I did read his Captain Obvious scene with Ned as trying to needle him by disrespecting his intelligence, but if they were honestly trying to make it a straightforward "let's explain stuff to the audience" scene, that's pretty lame.

I didn't mind the throne room scene because Ned's been established as being a bit thick, and Littlefinger probably relishes his chances to condescend to him due to his feelings for his wife.

I'm sure others have mentioned it, but doing stuff like saying character X doesn't get really fleshed out until book X really is a sizeable spoiler, particularly when it's one of the main players in an ongoing bloody conflict.   If the column wants to play loose on that front, that's certainly your prerogative, but if you guys are going to make a habit of it, I'd appreciate the heads up.  I'm really liking not knowing where any of this is going. 

Did we say something bad about Viserys? I loved that character/performance. So perfectly unlikable. And I think you're misunderstanding what we're saying about Sansa. In any case, our feelings are all coming from the perspective of having read the books. Which is also why our commentary may seem so negative. Make no mistake, this is my favorite thing on TV currently. I love it. But the fact that Rappe and I already know what is going to happen on the show doesn't leave much to talk about. We can't get sucked up in awesomeness of the story the way a newcomer can. And I guess this unfortunately puts us in the position to nitpick shit.

As for spoilers, Rappe and I are trying to be better about it. And I don't think we're spoiling anything new from what we already spoiled in previous discussions. In those cases I figure the cat is out of the bag. But I think it is good to stay on us about it. Honestly, I keep forgetting that talking about a character's future is a major spoiler. Our bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

I didn't mind the throne room scene because Ned's been established as being a bit thick,

 

 

I'm team Ned and I won't stand for that!  Man's in a lot of pain at that point, never wanted to be on the Throne and is having to deal with all manner of cunts fucking with his head when all he wants to be is up at Winterfell being left alone.

It's been said before but I don't think he's thick - he's just too standup a guy.  Man is honourable and strives to do the best by everyone.  True everyone runs rings around him in Kings Landing but that's just because he's not a political beast, not thick :)

Having said aall of that the portrayal of Littlefinger is weird.  No spoilers but there's a scene in 7 (which for other reasons is smoking hot) where he quite literally spells out his motivations.  He needs to be more subtle.  But it's done now so we'll see how it goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Miller 

Did we say something bad about Viserys? I loved that character/performance.

Hmm, you're correct. Sorry, I was just reading several reviews of this episode at once, and I guess I sort of got them blurred together in my head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Miller 

As for spoilers, Rappe and I are trying to be better about it. And I don't think we're spoiling anything new from what we already spoiled in previous discussions. In those cases I figure the cat is out of the bag. But I think it is good to stay on us about it. Honestly, I keep forgetting that talking about a character's future is a major spoiler. Our bad.

It's not a big deal, but when it gets as specific as saying "X is really the focus of book 3," well, that's at least 2 seasons in the future we're talking about, so it takes some wind out of the sails of the very personal blood feud he has going with another main character at the moment. 

I think you've otherwise been doing a a good job with it.   I mean, I've gathered from all the focus on Dany's character arc that she's not in any immediate danger, but as long as you don't map out the timeframe so specifically, it's all good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Bain 

I'm team Ned and I won't stand for that!  Man's in a lot of pain at that point, never wanted to be on the Throne and is having to deal with all manner of cunts fucking with his head when all he wants to be is up at Winterfell being left alone.

 

It's been said before but I don't think he's thick - he's just too standup a guy.  Man is honourable and strives to do the best by everyone.  True everyone runs rings around him in Kings Landing but that's just because he's not a political beast, not thick :)

 

I disagree.  I think the characterization has been that he's not nearly as quick-witted as the rest of the small council or the Lannisters, and his awareness of that feeds into his principled disgust with the backstabbing and subterfuge that accompanies the titular game.   His dismissal of Dany and Drogo as a threat of any kind seems particularly dense, even if we can write off his horribly rash decision on the throne as being in part a purposeful effort to piss off the king.
 

Although the reviews are technically good, as someone who hasn't read the books, I find the constant comparisons to be boring. I skipped whole paragraphs not because of spoilers (there aren't any) but because, and don't take this the wrong way, I don't care about your opinions on its success as an adaptation. Nothing forces me to read the reviews, so I'm not bitching, but I'm into the show and came in wanting to read the thoughts of CHUD staff concerning the show itself and nothing beyond it.

So far, the stuff that I have read feels more like something that would best be discussed among people that have read the book and float around in the spoiler thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

I disagree.  I think the characterization has been that he's not nearly as quick-witted as the rest of the small council or the Lannisters, and his awareness of that feeds into his principled disgust with the backstabbing and subterfuge that accompanies the titular game.   His dismissal of Dany and Drogo as a threat of any kind seems particularly dense, even if we can write off his horribly rash decision on the throne as being in part a purposeful effort to piss off the king.
 

interesting counter-point.  I don;t think it's that he dismissed them as any kind of threat, I think it's just that he doesn't go with slaughtering 'innocents' (although you could hardly call Viserys that).  Bear in mind that his Father and brother were killed by the Mad King so he has every reason to want revenge.  It seems to me he's just tired of the whole thing, and thinks Robert is being unreasonable in wanting to kill 'kids' (again this makes more sense in the book as I think Dany is 14 and cock wad is 17 or something).  I think this is especially true because it's assasination.  In the first Episode he makes a big point of telling Bran that it's him that has to enact the King's justice - not do it through an intermediary and he's probably appalled that Fat Bob is just 'kill them all'.

I thik his insistence when he was on the throne is also a reaction against Robert's... umm, uselessness as King.  He lets a lot of shit slide just because he's so in debt to the Lannisters and by turning a blind eye to the stuff that goes on causes suffering to the people.  That also calls back to when Robert went with Cersei's whole kill Sansa's wolf vibe.  Ned directly appealed to him and Robert just turned his back.  I think he's just trying to do what needs to be done, unencumbered by the chains that bind Robert (be that money or alcoholism).  So when the River people go 'it was the Mountain that Rides' his reaction is 'that's fucking enough'. 

I take your point but I still think it's his honour that binds him, rather than lack of nous.

Well, the thing about honor, it's simple.   So it makes a natural refuge for a simpleton when he's feeling outmatched by the maneuverings of smart folks. 

Not that I'm faulting the show for this.  I think it's an interesting move to make the most sympathetic character one who would obviously not be the best leader.

I also find the constant comparison to the books to be a little irritating.  It's the same reason I don't bother with the thread for the show since it's dominated with annoying comparisons to the book.  Even if they're not spoiling anything, I don't really want to know, and don't care how the characters or plots are presented in the books.  It seems exposure to the books has left certain expectations of the characters and the story, at the expense of judging it on it's own terms, but this is probably unavoidable.  It's obviously also why you guys are a little nit picky with this show.  Certainly, criticisms of facial expressions go way beyond me and appear overly critical.

I doubt the criticisms of Sansa or Littlefinger would come from someone unfamiliar with the books.  Littlefinger in particular doesn't appear to be mustache twirling at all.  And that scene where he is whispering in Ned's ear, well like Schwartz said, his character from the very beginning has been a smart-ass who delights in imparting information whenever possible.  Sansa is just a spoiled child, I doubt anyone who hasn't read the books would have a problem with this depiction.  In fact, when you consider the rest of Stark kids are so grounded, someone had to be a bit of prick, they are kids after all.

These reviews would probably connect more with people who have read the books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Well, the thing about honor, it's simple.   So it makes a natural refuge for a simpleton when he's feeling outmatched by the maneuverings of smart folks. 

 

Not that I'm faulting the show for this.  I think it's an interesting move to make the most sympathetic character one who would obviously not be the best leader.

simpleton is such a harsh word

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Well, the thing about honor, it's simple.   So it makes a natural refuge for a simpleton when he's feeling outmatched by the maneuverings of smart folks. 

 

Not that I'm faulting the show for this.  I think it's an interesting move to make the most sympathetic character one who would obviously not be the best leader.

The thing is, if Ned were actually the King, he'd be able to exercise his honor to his heart's content.  But he's not.  He may only be one step down on the totem-pole, but there are enough people hovering around the same level that can hem him up with the politicking.

Littlefinger doesn't bother me...he revels in demonstrating how much smarter he is than everyone around him, so his needling in the Throne room just struck me as him being a bit of an ass.

And don't feel alone, Prankster.  I like Sansa, too, but I completely understand why virtually everyone else seems to hate her.  I do agree with the reviewers that the writing has done her some disservice here.

And hell yes they've messed up with Bran so far.  I'm beginning to fear that in their seeming desire to "De-fantasize" as much as possible they're going to run into some serious problems later on.

And yeah, they need to budget up some actual extras or some CGI extras...whichever comes cheaper.  The hunting party was just laughable.  Even if the King broke off with his own little "sub group" I'd imagine we should still see other folks wandering in the background and such.  Funny thing is it's not like the don't -have- extras.  Just recycle some of the guards and retainers and hell...the people from the Eyrie, which looked like it at least had a full and mixed group of people in its' court.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Miller 

 In any case, our feelings are all coming from the perspective of having read the books. Which is also why our commentary may seem so negative. Make no mistake, this is my favorite thing on TV currently. I love it. But the fact that Rappe and I already know what is going to happen on the show doesn't leave much to talk about. We can't get sucked up in awesomeness of the story the way a newcomer can. And I guess this unfortunately puts us in the position to nitpick shit.

While I truly love 99% of the writings to come from all three of you guys - I think this very true point may be why these episode reviews aren't necessarily for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Bain 

 

interesting counter-point.  I don;t think it's that he dismissed them as any kind of threat, I think it's just that he doesn't go with slaughtering 'innocents' (although you could hardly call Viserys that).  Bear in mind that his Father and brother were killed by the Mad King so he has every reason to want revenge.  It seems to me he's just tired of the whole thing, and thinks Robert is being unreasonable in wanting to kill 'kids' (again this makes more sense in the book as I think Dany is 14 and cock wad is 17 or something).  I think this is especially true because it's assasination.  In the first Episode he makes a big point of telling Bran that it's him that has to enact the King's justice - not do it through an intermediary and he's probably appalled that Fat Bob is just 'kill them all'.

 

I thik his insistence when he was on the throne is also a reaction against Robert's... umm, uselessness as King.  He lets a lot of shit slide just because he's so in debt to the Lannisters and by turning a blind eye to the stuff that goes on causes suffering to the people.  That also calls back to when Robert went with Cersei's whole kill Sansa's wolf vibe.  Ned directly appealed to him and Robert just turned his back.  I think he's just trying to do what needs to be done, unencumbered by the chains that bind Robert (be that money or alcoholism).  So when the River people go 'it was the Mountain that Rides' his reaction is 'that's fucking enough'. 

 

I take your point but I still think it's his honour that binds him, rather than lack of nous.

 

What he said. All of it.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Well, the thing about honor, it's simple.   So it makes a natural refuge for a simpleton when he's feeling outmatched by the maneuverings of smart folks. 

 

Not that I'm faulting the show for this.  I think it's an interesting move to make the most sympathetic character one who would obviously not be the best leader.

I just flat-out couldn't disagree more - but then I guess I like to think of myself as an honourable guy and not a simpleton, so I may be bringing my own baggage to the table.

 

I just don't see Ned as being stupid or lacking in brains - he just has this crazy notion that being a vile scheming two-faced cheating backstabbing asshole is a bad thing and should be avoided. That a mans honour is all he has - "the gift he gives to himself" as its called in Rob Roy.

Frankly, if I could go back I think I'd want to do the tag team very blatantly from the perspective of having read the books. As is I feel like we're trapped between two worlds, and Rappe and I are having to hold back our honest criticism to sorta pretend like we don't know where things are going. And as is often pointed out, we're not doing a great job of that either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

While I truly love 99% of the writings to come from all three of you guys - I think this very true point may be why these episode reviews aren't necessarily for me.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Miller 

Frankly, if I could go back I think I'd want to do the tag team very blatantly from the perspective of having read the books. As is I feel like we're trapped between two worlds, and Rappe and I are having to hold back our honest criticism to sorta pretend like we don't know where things are going. And as is often pointed out, we're not doing a great job of that either.

 

Not a knock on you guys at all - you're right, you and Ms Rappe really are betwixt and between with where you've tried to place yourselves - maybe just throw caution to the wind and write reviews from the point of view you already have - as fans of the books?