Are damsels in distress automatically sexist?

You've got the right idea, I think. Basically *how* the damsel gets in distress is more important to that question than the fact that she is. Technically, Zhang Ziyi's character in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a damsel in distress when she gets kidnapped by Dark Cloud. And yet it never registers, because she's a force to be reckoned with the entire time she's in the desert.

Willie Scott's a sorry excuse for a female character as a whole, only because of how practically helpless she is, and at least even then, she still gets to be in charge of her own sexuality for a brief, shining moment.  Even if she hadn't been kidnapped, she would be terrible.

Like all sexist ideas, it's mostly bothersome because it's so predictable and tired. Mostly because many films make the Spider-Man mistake, which is, we're going to spend the first two acts sketching this character in, and at the end we'll have her scream for help in front of a green screen while the hero has all the fun. It's boring.

What Gabe said. And in truth I think even when the writers try show how savvy they are by making the woman all spunky or whatever, it still comes off as sexist because It's a symptom of women almost always playing second fiddle to the guys... "Lets give the lead something to do by putting the woman - who, lets face it, noone gives a shit about - in distress."

Kate Capshaw's Willie Scott, gets all kinds of Hate, for being annoying and a damsel in distress.  I...Enjoyed her character, in Temple Of Doom.  Not all characters have to be more than one dimensional.  The film was set in...1938!  Willie Scott, is...Supposed to be a Damsel In Distress!  The Indiana Jones films are about the...Hero!  It is not a re-invention of 40's era serials, just Spielberg and Lucas' version of them.  Who cares if a damsel in distress is sexist anyway.  Not everything has to be politically correct.

The Spiderman movies are a great example. In Spiderman 2 Mary Jane is yet again the damsel in distress, but the role is subverted as she talks back and logically reasons with Dr. Octopus that she should be freed. One of Spiderman 3's many faults, however, is that MJ is the DiD once again and does nothing to free herself or fight back or even help the hero. Not sexist so much as lazy screenwriting.

I like how Casino Royale turned the formula on its head by combining the DiD with another stalwart: the femme fatale. Bond chases after the villains to save Vesper, and is even tortured for her (as he hears her screaming in the next room), and later finds out she was duping him all along.

Watched The Searchers recently, and thought it a fun twist that John Wayne's Ethan was attempting to "save" his niece from the Comanches not by freeing her but by killing her.

Look, not all women are as badass as Ripley, Sarah Conner, or even the Queen from 300.  Hell, not all men are as badass as Wolverine or James Bond.  The thing that bothers me is that when a weak man is onscreen, it's portrayed as a joke, and he'll probably end up being useful in some way by film's end.  When a weak woman is onscreen, there's no joke about it, and no chance for redemption.  And have you noticed that when a strong man is portrayed in a film, there's no comment, but when we see a badass chick, there's shock and awe galore?  That's because it's automatically assumed that women are going to be weak because that is how society views us.  We're a nuisance, we nag, we're the ball and chain.   Of course we're not gonna have the sense to avoid being kidnapped!

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Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 

Look, not all women are as badass as Ripley, Sarah Conner, or even the Queen from 300.  Hell, not all men are as badass as Wolverine or James Bond.  The thing that bothers me is that when a weak man is onscreen, it's portrayed as a joke, and he'll probably end up being useful in some way by film's end.  When a weak woman is onscreen, there's no joke about it, and no chance for redemption.  And have you noticed that when a strong man is portrayed in a film, there's no comment, but when we see a badass chick, there's shock and awe galore?  That's because it's automatically assumed that women are going to be weak because that is how society views us.  We're a nuisance, we nag, we're the ball and chain.   Of course we're not gonna have the sense to avoid being kidnapped!

Couldn't it be argued that this is more a result of physicality than gender? Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue there isn't a level of a sexism here, but there's also a level of reality. It's not like Jay Barachel or Justin Long walks on screen next to Natalie Portman and people automatically assume they're going to be the hero simply by virtue of being male. Hugh Jackman is assumed to be the badass hero because he's built like Hugh Jackman. Are audiences really surprised when Rhona Mitra or Zoe Bell kicks someone's ass? They carry themselves like ass kickers, just like Jackman. If it's automatically assumed that women are going to be physically weak, it's because more often than not in simple movie visual language women are going to look weaker based on body type. Adrien Brody isn't credible as a badass until he bulks up in Predators, etc.

There was a discussion in a thread some time ago that took the "men with tits" trope to task.  I found that to be a fascinating discussion.  It's the question of being completely gender-blind or really writing rich characters.  I think there was even some debate about examples that are generally considered highly (Ripley, Sarah Conner).  Sometimes, femininity is taken to be a flaw when female characters go 'bad-ass'.  Tarantino was brought up often as someone who writes tough female characters without their femininity being compromised.  

At first glance I thought this thread was asking if damsels in distress are automatically sexier. Could have been a great one, you guys.

They were going for something very specific with Willie Scott and it just didn't work. I can't tell if it's the script that fails there or just Capshaw. Maybe a different actress could have pulled that off. Hell, I can imagine a version of that story where she's the point of view character. Regardless, it was a hell of a bad way to follow Marion Ravenwood.

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Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

There was a discussion in a thread some time ago that took the "men with tits" trope to task.  I found that to be a fascinating discussion.  It's the question of being completely gender-blind or really writing rich characters.  I think there was even some debate about examples that are generally considered highly (Ripley, Sarah Conner).  Sometimes, femininity is taken to be a flaw when female characters go 'bad-ass'.  Tarantino was brought up often as someone who writes tough female characters without their femininity being compromised.  

Sarah Connor, yes. Ripley, not so much. Especially with Alien 3's uncomfortable focus on Ripley's femininity being stripped from her. I seem to remember some argument about that being a possible factor into its failure.

Is the damsels in distress a male or a female fantasy? I would say to some degree it both, but it may be more a female, then a male.

It's a bit of both.  Men want to be heroes, women want to be with a hero.  I doubt women long to be hung from a high place to lure in said hero, but whatever.

I'm reminded of the song "The Simple Joys of Maidenhood" from the musical Camelot.  Guenevere (Julie Andrews) sings a humorous lament about how, having been betrothed to Arthur (and man she hasn't met), she's being robbed of the joy of having men compete and die for the honor of rescuing her.  The song is brilliant in that it reinforces Guenevere's DID fantasy of wanting to be rescued while ridiculing the outdated convention of DID at the same time.

Thanks for bumping this thread.  I had just been thinking of it last night as I watched 30 Minutes or Less.

SPOILERS ARE ON THEIR WAY:

There wasn't much meat on anything in the movie to begin with, so I suppose she's in good company.  But still...

Reading these comments makes me appreciate even more how Hayley Atwell's character was handled in Captain America.

She held her own and was never turned into a damsel in distress for lazy plot conventions.