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The Muppet Movie

post #1 of 38
6/23/11 at 6:45am
Thread Starter 

(Before anyone jumps down my throat, yes, I searched for previous threads about this movie. I found nothing. Feel free to direct me to previous threads if you find them)

 

This was oddly never one of the Muppet films I watched in childhood; I was more of a Christmas Carol/Treasure Island and Dark Crystal/Labyrinth lad (I also saw Muppets Take Manhattan many moons ago). After seeing it for the first time recently... yeah, it's fucking GREAT. The Muppeteering remains some of the best, most soulful puppet work in film history, it's still funny as hell, the songs are great, and there's just so much JOY radiating out of the screen. I've learned elsewhere that it was actually a pretty stressful, grueling shoot, but you honestly can't tell. Laundry list!:

 

-Steve Whitmire has done a great job with Kermit over the past 20 years... but nothing can beat Jim Henson's wistful, friendly, and sometimes sarcastic portrayal of the little green frog. The scene where Kermit wrestles with what to do now at the campfire is still legitimately inspiring, and that's largely in part to Henson's performance, both voice and puppetry. Likewise, Frank Oz is indestructible as Miss Piggy, Fozzie, Animal, and Sam the Eagle.

 

-I love how gleefully the film destroys the fourth wall (much like anything else Muppets-related), especially when the Electric Mayhem comes to the rescue because "it says so in the script you left us!" Or the great scene where the film breaks and the Swedish Chef has to step in: "Der film is okey-dokey!"

 

-As awesome as the Muppets are here, the humans are equally great. Charles Durning makes for an eminently hissable villain in Doc Hopper, while Austin Pendleton does some fine work as Hopper's sympathetic sidekick Max. The flood of celebrity cameos is great too, with the obvious highlights being Steve Martin's comically obnoxious waiter, Mel Brooks' crazy Professor Krassman (there's a couple times in that scene where Charles Durning is clearly trying to hold in his laughter), Dom DeLuise in the beginning, and Orson Welles at the end; he may only get one line, but damn it, he only needs one line.

 

-The Paul Williams songs are great too, a mix of bouncy and funny ("Movin' Right Along", "Can You Picture That?") and surprisingly touching ("The Rainbow Connection", "I'm Going To Go Back There Someday"). Williams also pops up in the film as the El Sleezo piano player.

 

This is just one of those movies I could keep going on and on about, so what are your thoughts?

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post #2 of 38
6/23/11 at 7:28am

It's still the textbook definition of a perfect film. Every joke works. The cameos are blatant, but never distracting. The songs get you to every emotion they aim for. And it's a brand of honest, earned optimism you just do not see on screen.

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post #3 of 38
6/23/11 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

It's still the textbook definition of a perfect film. Every joke works. The cameos are blatant, but never distracting. The songs get you to every emotion they aim for. And it's a brand of honest, earned optimism you just do not see on screen.

 

"Optimism" seems to be a key quality in Henson's work, from the Muppets to Fraggle Rock, hell, even Dark Crystal and Labyrinth are ultimately positive and optimistic stories. They're sneaky and subversive, yes, but ultimately hopeful. It's sad that only the best of, say, Disney or Ghibli evoke that kind of positivity these days.

 

Incidentally, Justin, what's your own history with the Muppets? I came to the more acclaimed stuff like this and The Muppet Show later in life, as I grew up more on the post-Henson death works like Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, Muppets Tonight (which actually holds up fairly well), and (ugh) Muppets from Space.

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post #4 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:07am

Like every American kid with any sort of good breeding, my mom had me watching Sesame Street as soon I had the motor control to hold my own head up straight. Labyrinth came out when I was 4, and I wanted to see it like crazy, but my mom wouldn't take me, since it looked too scary. I watched the living shit out of Muppet Babies, though I have no idea how that holds up these days. They used to show The Muppet Show in reruns on TNT every weeknight for a few years. I was fucking religious about that.

 

I didn't see the movie until I was maybe 7 or 8, but my mom had the soundtrack on 8-track. I wore it down to the point where the tape broke, apparently.

 

Another thing I love about the movie is every year I'd watch it, and another joke would make perfect sense. Part of it is just me being slow on the uptake occasionally--that Myth/Miss thing threw me off for YEARS--but you can literally watch it at any age growing up, and get something out of it. Thats still amazing.

 

Shit, the last one was maybe about 3 years ago when this finally clicked for me:

 

"It's the man with the badge! The cops! The Po-lice! The fuzz! The P.I--"

"Don't. You. DARE."

"....wouldn't think of it."

 

 

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post #5 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:08am

Everything about this film is perfect I still sing moving right along to myself sometimes when driving my car (what???).  i jsut hope the new film lives up to this kinds of magic.

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post #6 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

Like every American kid with any sort of good breeding, my mom had me watching Sesame Street as soon I had the motor control to hold my own head up straight. Labyrinth came out when I was 4, and I wanted to see it like crazy, but my mom wouldn't take me, since it looked too scary. I watched the living shit out of Muppet Babies, though I have no idea how that holds up these days. They used to show The Muppet Show in reruns on TNT every weeknight for a few years. I was fucking religious about that.

 

I didn't see the movie until I was maybe 7 or 8, but my mom had the soundtrack on 8-track. I wore it down to the point where the tape broke, apparently.

 

Another thing I love about the movie is every year I'd watch it, and another joke would make perfect sense. Part of it is just me being slow on the uptake occasionally--that Myth/Miss thing threw me off for YEARS--but you can literally watch it at any age growing up, and get something out of it. Thats still amazing.

 

Shit, the last one was maybe about 3 years ago when this finally clicked for me:

 

"It's the man with the badge! The cops! The Po-lice! The fuzz! The P.I--"

"Don't. You. DARE."

"....wouldn't think of it."

 

 

 

*smacks head* How did I forget about Sesame Street and Muppet Babies? I moved towards the former after growing out of Barney (which happened pretty damn fast), and watched the latter religiously on Nickelodeon. Big Bird's cameo in this movie still delights my inner 5 year-old to no end.

 

Did you watch Fraggle Rock much? I only saw it here and there when they re-ran it on other channels, but remember liking it a good deal.
 

 

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post #7 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:29am

I got cable just as Fraggle Rock was done with HBO, so I didn't see nearly as much of that as I should've, but what I saw, i adored. One of my favorite toys as a kid was a Happy Meal toy of Wendell driving a carrot car, with mushrooms for wheels. That thing saw more playtime than my Hot Wheels. The girlfriend has the whole series. That marathon will happen sooner rather than later.

 

That Big Bird cameo is still brilliant, by the way. It's an adult joke and portrayal of Big Bird without betraying any part of him being associated with children. That's an intelligence and awareness that the Shreks of the world just don't get.

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post #8 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

I got cable just as Fraggle Rock was done with HBO, so I didn't see nearly as much of that as I should've, but what I saw, i adored. One of my favorite toys as a kid was a Happy Meal toy of Wendell driving a carrot car, with mushrooms for wheels. That thing saw more playtime than my Hot Wheels. The girlfriend has the whole series. That marathon will happen sooner rather than later.

 

That Big Bird cameo is still brilliant, by the way. It's an adult joke and portrayal of Big Bird without betraying any part of him being associated with children. That's an intelligence and awareness that the Shreks of the world just don't get.


Ah, I see. Good luck with that marathon. And yeah, the Big Bird cameo indeed works on several levels: the "hey, it's Big Bird!" level, his cheery attitude, and the double joke about Sesame Street.

 

Incidentally, should I see The Great Muppet Caper? I've heard it's a much more standard offering after the brilliance of this film, but any film where Charles Grodin plays a villain in lust with Miss Piggy can't be all bad, can it?

 

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post #9 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:52am

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post One of my favorite toys as a kid was a Happy Meal toy of Wendell driving a carrot car, with mushrooms for wheels.


Whoa!  I have that toy, as well.  Forgot about it!

 

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post #10 of 38
6/23/11 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Savage View Post

Everything about this film is perfect I still sing moving right along to myself sometimes when driving my car (what???).  i jsut hope the new film lives up to this kinds of magic.


"Movin Right Along" is the textbook definition of the perfect driving song. 
 

 

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post #11 of 38
6/23/11 at 10:37am

I have high hopes for the new movie, but I know in my heart of hearts that it will never beat the originals.  The new puppeteers/voice actors just don't have the same heart as Henson and crew had.  It's probably because they're trying to do an impression instead of working with characters they've created themselves, but...  I don't know, even on the level of the puppeteering, they just don't seem to be quite as "aware" of how the characters are coming across, or as in tune with the character's personality as they should be...

 

Anyway, I have much love for the Muppets.  My siblings and I watched all of the Henson stuff as much as we could growing up, and I still have a strong sentimentality toward the movies and shows.

 

In regards to your question Chris Spider, The Great Muppet Caper was my least favorite of the Muppet movies as I was growing up.  I just didn't get a lot of it.  I find it much funnier these days.  And Happiness Hotel is a great song. 

 

Also, Charles Grodin lip-synching a love ballad to Miss Piggy is classic.

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post #12 of 38
6/23/11 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shunderson View Post

I have high hopes for the new movie, but I know in my heart of hearts that it will never beat the originals.  The new puppeteers/voice actors just don't have the same heart as Henson and crew had.  It's probably because they're trying to do an impression instead of working with characters they've created themselves, but...  I don't know, even on the level of the puppeteering, they just don't seem to be quite as "aware" of how the characters are coming across, or as in tune with the character's personality as they should be...

 

Anyway, I have much love for the Muppets.  My siblings and I watched all of the Henson stuff as much as we could growing up, and I still have a strong sentimentality toward the movies and shows.

 

In regards to your question Chris Spider, The Great Muppet Caper was my least favorite of the Muppet movies as I was growing up.  I just didn't get a lot of it.  I find it much funnier these days.  And Happiness Hotel is a great song. 

 

Also, Charles Grodin lip-synching a love ballad to Miss Piggy is classic.


I would argue that the "new guys" have really been working with these characters for a while; Steve Whitmire has been doing Kermit for almost 20 years, for instance. And Dave Goelz still does Gonzo. Are they equal to the originals? No, but they still do a fine job, in my opinion.

 

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post #13 of 38
6/23/11 at 12:17pm

As soon as Rain Dog shows up, don't mind us, we'll be at El Sleezo's bar hugging and having a drink.

 

This movie is arguably my favorite of all time. And it's not childhood nostalgia goggles at work (despite being a child of the 70s/80s and raised on Sesame St, The Muppet Show, Fraggle Rock, and Henson's Creature SHop creations). My whole life, Gonzo's daring weirdo has been my favorite (who doesn't want to be the guy who takes chances and shows his true colors without fear?), but Kermit's very specific arc in TMM is the one I relate to the most. Following your dreams, with all the bumpy roads, guilt, friends/family, and risk and reward that goes along with it. It's hilarious. It's loaded with heart. And it's proof that puppets can exist away from the stage and idiot box. It's perfect.

 

And it's Wembley, not Wendell, you amateurs. ;)

 

tumblr_kzc9lwVIOA1qb3mmfo1_500.jpg

 

"They don't look like Presbyterians to me..."

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post #14 of 38
6/23/11 at 12:33pm
Thread Starter 

Ah, had a feeling you'd be showing up sooner or later, Darkmite. What are your thoughts on the other Muppet movies such as Caper, Manhattan, Christmas Carol, and Treasure Island?

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post #15 of 38
6/23/11 at 12:59pm

The Great Muppet Caper is actually kind of my favorite. I like it because instead of the Muppets searching for fame like in The Muppet Movie or The Muppets Take Manhattan, it feels like the Muppets are actors playing roles, similar to Muppet Christmas Carol. It probably has my favorite batch of guest stars too, Grodin is hilarious and Jack Warden steals the show early on. I really need to see Muppet Treasure Island next. 

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post #16 of 38
6/23/11 at 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shunderson View Post

 

In regards to your question Chris Spider, The Great Muppet Caper was my least favorite of the Muppet movies as I was growing up.  I just didn't get a lot of it.  I find it much funnier these days.  And Happiness Hotel is a great song. 

 

But...but it had Miss Piggy crashing through a stain-glass window on a motorcycle!  Even as a 4-year old, I knew that was badass.

 

Also, the "Baseball Diamond"!  Get it?
 

 

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post #17 of 38
6/23/11 at 5:20pm

Did any of you watch The Electric Company? It was a staple of mine along with Sesame Street.

 

So awesome in the fact that it has Morgan Freeman and Spiderman in it.

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post #18 of 38
6/23/11 at 5:32pm

Quite simply, this film is a part of my dna.

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post #19 of 38
6/23/11 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post

Did any of you watch The Electric Company? It was a staple of mine along with Sesame Street.

 

So awesome in the fact that it has Morgan Freeman and Spiderman in it.

 

Sadly no, I'm too young for that one. Didn't the live-action Spider-Man segments apparently suck ass, though?
 

 

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post #20 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post

Ah, had a feeling you'd be showing up sooner or later, Darkmite. What are your thoughts on the other Muppet movies such as Caper, Manhattan, Christmas Carol, and Treasure Island?


I'm a Henson fanatic, so everything post-death (for me) can't hold a candle to TMM. TREASURE and CAROL are nice Muppety twists on classic tales and Caine and Curry bring it without a doubt, but I always prefer the Muppet flicks where they play themselves and are the focus. Those are the movies with the most heart. I really think they should have just lampooned a genre or two instead of straight adaptations, but whatever. And this is a tiny nitpick, but there are so many classic ancillary Muppet Show characters that should be used as background characters and those 2 drop the ball there IMO. I feel like they just grab any old puppet out of drawers sometimes for those crowd scenes (weird complaint I know).

 

As far as CAPER goes... love it. It's 2nd to TMM for me. Even if it lacks continuity. It's got that lived-in "real world" look that the first has. The Muppets just happen to be living in it. And it's a terrific send up to classic Hollywood type films. MANHATTAN's cute, love the simple Broadway-style plot, the Muppet Babies intro, etc. One nitpick ... Something about Miss Piggy's 80s perm bugs the crap out of me. I know she's fashionable, but it (along with the neony colors) tends to date it for me.

 

SPACE? Glad that Gonzo finally gets the spotlight. Some great gags. Pepe's a fun addition to the core group. A Josh Charles cameo? Does anyone (other than DEAD POET'S SOCIETY fanatics) know who that is?

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post #21 of 38
6/23/11 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post

As far as CAPER goes... love it. It's 2nd to TMM for me. Even if it lacks continuity. It's got that lived-in "real world" look that the first has. The Muppets just happen to be living in it. And it's a terrific send up to classic Hollywood type films. 



...and lets not forget 'lovestruck' Charles Grodin as our villain...

 

300px-GMC-Piggy-and-Nicky.jpg

 

...so good.

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post #22 of 38
6/24/11 at 5:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post




I'm a Henson fanatic, so everything post-death (for me) can't hold a candle to TMM. TREASURE and CAROL are nice Muppety twists on classic tales and Caine and Curry bring it without a doubt, but I always prefer the Muppet flicks where they play themselves and are the focus. Those are the movies with the most heart. I really think they should have just lampooned a genre or two instead of straight adaptations, but whatever. And this is a tiny nitpick, but there are so many classic ancillary Muppet Show characters that should be used as background characters and those 2 drop the ball there IMO. I feel like they just grab any old puppet out of drawers sometimes for those crowd scenes (weird complaint I know).

 

As far as CAPER goes... love it. It's 2nd to TMM for me. Even if it lacks continuity. It's got that lived-in "real world" look that the first has. The Muppets just happen to be living in it. And it's a terrific send up to classic Hollywood type films. MANHATTAN's cute, love the simple Broadway-style plot, the Muppet Babies intro, etc. One nitpick ... Something about Miss Piggy's 80s perm bugs the crap out of me. I know she's fashionable, but it (along with the neony colors) tends to date it for me.

 

SPACE? Glad that Gonzo finally gets the spotlight. Some great gags. Pepe's a fun addition to the core group. A Josh Charles cameo? Does anyone (other than DEAD POET'S SOCIETY fanatics) know who that is?


Eh, Space is still probably the worst for me, though I do love the appearances by Jeffrey Tambor, Hulk Hogan, and Dr. Van Neuter. And no, I'm afraid I'm unaware of Josh Charles.

 

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post #23 of 38
6/24/11 at 6:35am

Since this has dissolved (improved?) into a Muppet catch-all discussion, you know what doesn't get enough love?  A Muppet Family Christmas from 1987.  The Muppet Show muppets head to Fozzy's mother's house for the holidays, not realizing that she had planned to spend Christmas lying on the beach in Malibu.  Consequently, Fozzy's mom has rented her house to Doc and Sprocket from Fraggle Rock.  We get cameos from the Sesame Street crew and Robin manages to find Fraggles living in the basement.  They're all there and it's a blast!

 

 

Come to think of it, being a Christmas fanatic, I pretty much love all of Henson's Yuletide efforts: Emmet Otter's Jugband Christmas, The Christmas Toy, Muppet Christmas Carol...

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post #24 of 38
6/24/11 at 6:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post

Since this has dissolved (improved?) into a Muppet catch-all discussion, you know what doesn't get enough love?  A Muppet Family Christmas from 1987.  The Muppet Show muppets head to Fozzy's mother's house for the holidays, not realizing that she had planned to spend Christmas lying on the beach in Malibu.  Consequently, Fozzy's mom has rented her house to Doc and Sprocket from Fraggle Rock.  We get cameos from the Sesame Street crew and Robin manages to find Fraggles living in the basement.  They're all there and it's a blast!

 

 

Come to think of it, being a Christmas fanatic, I pretty much love all of Henson's Yuletide efforts: Emmet Otter's Jugband Christmas, The Christmas Toy, Muppet Christmas Carol...


I literally just watched that yesterday; my favorite part is a tie between Jim Henson's cameo at the end and Swedish Chef nearly having a heart attack when he sees Big Bird.

 

And yeah, this has "improved" into a catch-all discussion, I'd say.

 

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post #25 of 38
6/24/11 at 7:51am

Pepe is by far the best of the "new" charaters.  The best bits in any of the new films involve him.  Stand outs are trying to seduce Joan Cusack and convicing Gonzo to build him a Jacuzzi

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post #26 of 38
6/24/11 at 7:03pm
Thread Starter 

What are everyone's favorite cameos and Muppet Show guest stars? I'll have to think about mine, to be honest.

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post #27 of 38
6/24/11 at 7:21pm

RIP Peter Falk. Great cameo in Great Muppet Caper. 

 

Peterfalk.jpg

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post #28 of 38
6/24/11 at 9:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post

What are everyone's favorite cameos and Muppet Show guest stars? I'll have to think about mine, to be honest.



Gotta go with either Steve Martin or John Cleese personally.

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post #29 of 38
6/25/11 at 1:40am

 Not a movie but Pearce Bronsnan on the Muppets Tonight, dressed as a giant Prawn still makes me smile.

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post #30 of 38
6/25/11 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 

Yeah, Muppets Tonight actually had some pretty good guests, like Brosnan, George Takei, John Goodman, and Jason Alexander. Hell, even Garth Brooks was funny since they had him doing Fiddler on the Roof. As far as the Muppet Show goes, Steve Martin and John Cleese's appearances are of course legendary, the Star Wars episode with Mark Hamill, C-3PO and R2-D2 is great, and I liked some of the weirder guests they had in the first season like Charles Aznavour, Vincent Price, and Mummenschanz.

 

As far as movie cameos, any in the first movie are great, though Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy's is bittersweet since it was their last filmed appearance (and the film is dedicated to Bergen). The only bit I can remember from Great Muppet Caper is this terrific exchange between Oscar the Grouch and former Muppet Show guest Peter Ustinov:

 

Ustinov: What are you doing here?

Oscar: A very brief cameo.

Ustinov: (sadly) Me too.

 

Oh, and another great "joke you don't get till you're older" from this movie is "You don't go to Bombay, India to become a movie star! You go where we're going, to Hollywood!" "Sure, if you wanna do it the easy way!"

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post #31 of 38
6/25/11 at 11:48am

I was disappointed by the cameos in "The Muppet Movie". I thought Mel Brooks and Steve Martin weren't funny at all, which was really surprising considering they were both close to the primes of their careers when they made their appearances. It's one of the reasons I like "The Muppets Take Manhattan" more. James Coco's cameo was a highlight of that movie.

 

I don't know much about him and have never seen him in any other movie, but his scene where he sickens Rowlf with his baby talk to his dog while condescending to Rowlf as a dog was priceless. I'm surprised how underrated "The Muppets Take Manhattan" seems to be here. I've never seen "The Great Muppet Caper", but I think "The Muppets Take Manhattan" is far superior to "The Muppet Movie" or the treasure island and Christmas Carol movies. Really my only objection to it is (as someone mentioned earlier), Piggy's hairstyle is sort of unsightly. Any movie where that's the biggest complaint that can be made has to be pretty damn good.

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post #32 of 38
6/25/11 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naisu Baddi View Post

I was disappointed by the cameos in "The Muppet Movie". I thought Mel Brooks and Steve Martin weren't funny at all, which was really surprising considering they were both close to the primes of their careers when they made their appearances. It's one of the reasons I like "The Muppets Take Manhattan" more. James Coco's cameo was a highlight of that movie.

 

I don't know much about him and have never seen him in any other movie, but his scene where he sickens Rowlf with his baby talk to his dog while condescending to Rowlf as a dog was priceless. I'm surprised how underrated "The Muppets Take Manhattan" seems to be here. I've never seen "The Great Muppet Caper", but I think "The Muppets Take Manhattan" is far superior to "The Muppet Movie" or the treasure island and Christmas Carol movies. Really my only objection to it is (as someone mentioned earlier), Piggy's hairstyle is sort of unsightly. Any movie where that's the biggest complaint that can be made has to be pretty damn good.


Eh, opinions are opinions. My main problem with Manhattan is that it feels more... ordinary than even the "adaptation" films; there's less of the savvy, self-aware feeling the Muppets have at their best, and it just feels like a standard "struggling artists" story with the Muppets slapped onto it. And Kermit's amnesia is an utterly lazy story device. There are still some great moments, though: the montage of the other Muppets at unsavory jobs, the sequence that inspired Muppet Babies, the aforementioned cameo by James Coco as well as Gregory Hines and Dabney Coleman, and the utterly heartbreaking "Saying Goodbye" song.

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post #33 of 38
6/25/11 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 

I've started rewatching The Muppet Show as well, and one thing I always liked about it is the feeling that utter chaos could break out at any moment. Obviously, this feeling is not as easy to replicate in feature films, but this film does manage to recapture it to some degree.

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post #34 of 38
6/27/11 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naisu Baddi View Post

I was disappointed by the cameos in "The Muppet Movie". I thought Mel Brooks and Steve Martin weren't funny at all,

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

 

Plus Milton Berle as the car salesman. James Coburn as the owner of El Sleezo. Madeline Kahn & Tell Savalas. Paul Williams (wink wink) as the piano player. Pryor, Hope, Orson, Dom D, Cloris Leachman, etc. All memorable. Just listing them makes me want to pop it in.

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post #35 of 38
6/27/11 at 2:25pm

If you say so. To be honest, I don't remember them that well. I do remember that Mel Brooks was some kind of mad scientist who somehow got tricked into making himself croak like a frog. Maybe if I saw that as a kid, I would think it's funny, but seeing it as an adult, I was annoyed by its just childish silliness. Wasn't Orson Welles only in the movie for like 30 seconds? I thought the camera just did a close-up of him smiling, and that's all. Cute, but nothing amazing. Like The Three Stooges appearing in one shot of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" without saying anything. Cameos don't really matter, though. The plot is more important. "The Muppets Take Manhattan" had mostly forgettable cameos too, but its plot construction worked better for me.

 

Cliché as it may have been, the whole 'gang having to band together to put on a great show' plot satisfied me more. By splitting up the gang, it gave each a chance to shine in their own story/environment before reuniting at the end (Fozzy trying to bond with bears, Gonzo becoming a stuntman, etc). It also benefited from the wonderful running gag of Piggy's gradually increasing jealousy as she spies on Kermit becoming close with his lady friend, and ended on a very poignant note with the wedding.

 

The road trip plot of "The Muppet Movie" was fine. I don't hate it. I just thought the hijinx in it weren't as funny and as sweet as they might have been, and the end was not quite as moving as Kermit and Piggy tying the knot. I really think "The Muppets Take Manhattan" was the pinnacle of their movie career. It was the last one with Henson, a perfect send-off for him (in which he gets to play Kermit as being more clever and ambitious than ever before), and the affection for the characters in it is just tremendous.

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post #36 of 38
6/27/11 at 2:58pm
Thread Starter 

Well, I find Brooks' cameo to be funny because he completely throws himself into it as a performer, and the resulting comic energy is quite funny indeed, to me at least. You're right that story is more important than cameos, but guest stars have been a part of the Muppets since the beginning, and as a result the first three movies have the abundance of big stars appearing in small roles, and the strength of those cameos can help the humor quotient. Welles' cameo actually impacts the plot, as he bellows for his secretary to give the Muppets the "Standard Rich and Famous" contract that will make their dreams come true. It's short, but funny.

 

You make some good points about Manhattan, and I do still think it's a good movie. But for me, there are two scenes that ultimately "make" The Muppet Movie for me. The first (and I'm sure Rain Dog and Darkmite will agree) is the one-two punch campfire scene. First we have the haunting, beautiful song "I'm Going to Go Back There Someday". The song itself is great, but add in Dave Goelz's soulful performance (both voice and puppet) as Gonzo, and you have magic. The next part of the scene where Kermit wrestles with his conscience is one of the most powerful "follow your dreams!" scenes in film history. Again, the performance here is key; you can hear and see such sadness in Henson's Kermit, and then such optimism as he realizes that "I promised me."

 

The other scene is the climactic showdown with Doc Hopper. I like that Kermit doesn't really think Hopper's a bad man (even if we, the audience, disagree), and asks him straight out who he's going to share his dream with, because if you don't have anyone to share it with, then what's the point? The scene's also funny and thrilling as Hopper subverts our expectations, Giant Animal saves the day, and Max lets out a whoop of joy even as he's running for his life.

 

Aside from the "Saying Goodbye" song, Manhattan doesn't really have any scenes like that for me. It's just kind of sweet and fluffy, and I guess I prefer my Muppets with a little more, uh, bite.

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post #37 of 38
6/28/11 at 7:09am

Chris has got it.

 

The campfire scene alone blows away anything in any Muppet movie following IMO. It's a crossroads for the group. It's introspective. It's poignant. It's revelatory. And if you're a creative type or someone who has had it tough following a dream, like me, it's HIGHLY relatable.

 

Like the Broadway show they're trying to put on, MANHATTAN's plot is fairly straightforward and fluffy and it does focus on following a dream. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't have the gravitas of TMM's driving (and real) emotional core. It's almost the Broadway adaptation of TMM. Plus, Kermit finding others who long for that same dream and assembling what would be the Muppet Show core has more resonance for me than knowing them all since they were babies.

 

The road-trip angle (discovering oneself on a quest for something else) speaks truer to me as well.

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post #38 of 38
6/28/11 at 7:18am
Thread Starter 

Thank you, sir! I will say, though, that the scene in Muppet Christmas Carol where Future-Kermit tries to reassure his family that they'll see Tiny Tim again someday ("Life is full of meetings and partings") comes close to that level of emotion, as it's clear the scene is also referring to the then-recent deaths of Jim Henson and Richard Hunt.

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