A Dance With Dragons SPOILER Discussion Thread

Cannot wait to read this!

I hope this comes out digitally. I love having series of books on my reader and don't want to buy it twice.

CAN I PLEASE REQUEST THAT EVERYONE ALLOW SPACE AT THE TOP SO NO ONE ACCIDENTALLY READS SOMETHING ON THE MAIN PAGE?  KIND OF LIKE THIS? 

Your cooperation is much appreciated.  You have no idea how hard I have to avert my eyes at that Breaking Bad Season 4 thread on the main page while I try to catch up. 

Can.

Not.

Wait.

I'ma tear thru this muthafucka in a day if I can, lol.  Waited 6 long years to find out what's up with Jon, Danny, and Tyrion!!!!

Also I know this is a spoiler thread but can we hide some DWD spoilers in spoiler text because I'm too weak to stay out of this thread until I read the book?

Also, kind of bracing myself for another FFC experience of setting up the pieces for the end game.   Hope I'm wrong or the next book comes out soon after this one.

Ebook has been successfully downloaded. Thank God I am on my summer break. Ereader says 1093 pages. Probably 40 of that will be the appendix.  The only real downside to my ereader is that I cannot see the maps all that well.

See you on the other side!

I dive in.

I might be seeing Martin talk on Thursday. I'll let you know how that goes, and what kind of people show up.

I won't have time to read this today but I still downloaded it to my Kindle as soon as I got into work. Can't wait!

Strangely, been a daily CHUD visitor and lurker here for over a decade.  And finally, I post. 

Simon West, you've been waiting far longer than 6 years to find out what happens with Tyrion, Daenereys and Jon.  You've been waiting 11 years since A storm of Swords was released, when these characters last saw the light of day. 

Got through the first 30 or so (digital) pages on my subway commute to work this morning.  Enjoyed the prologue just fine, but quite happy to be in the middle of a Tyrion chapter now. Freaking finally.

About 70 pages in and what a relief it is to be reading POV chapters from characters that are actually interesting for a change.   This really feels like the true follow up to Storm of Swords.

Feast really picked up as Cersei spiraled further and further.  The last 200 or so pages of that book were quite a good read.

I think that's true of all of Martin's books.   The last 200 pages really bring it home.   I don't regret reading AFFC and it was entertaining but it was kind of a slog at times especially the Dorne, Brienne, and Iron Islands chapters.    I'm not too far into the new one but it is really well done so far.  

I didn't have much of a problem with the Dorne/Iron Islands stuff (though I never felt compelled to keep reading).  But the Brienne chapters really were a slog.  A quest to find someone is really hurt when you know where the target is, yet it takes the searcher 150-odd pages and even by the end they're not even close.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

I didn't have much of a problem with the Dorne/Iron Islands stuff (though I never felt compelled to keep reading).  But the Brienne chapters really were a slog.  A quest to find someone is really hurt when you know where the target is, yet it takes the searcher 150-odd pages and even by the end they're not even close.

No kidding. The fact that Brienne was on a wild goose chase the whole book made her sections not just dull but outright frustrating.

I've only read the first three chapters of ADWD so far. Making Tyrion, Daeny, and Jon Snow the POV characters for the first three chapters seems like Martin throwing a giant bone to long time fans.

The Ygritte callback also got an 'ooh' out of me too.

110 pages in.  Jon just

Woah.

I'm on page 188 and I'm really digging this book so far.   Plot-wise, I'm not sure it goes any faster than AFFC but when you're following characters that are interesting, it almost doesn't matter.   Major Spoilers below....

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Nope, you're not.  I definitley think that's who Coldhands is.  The character was too built up in the first book not to pop back up at some point.

Saw George RR Martin at a Barnes and Noble with about 1000 other people yesterday. He was much more cheerful and elfin than I expected, kind of like an avuncular grampa. He seemed to have a very good sense of humor, said fuck like half a dozen times, and talked at length about eating. He said Bran was his least favorite to write, because he's a kid. He talked about adapting Blackwater and said, very optimistically, that they'd figured out how to crack it and they weren't worried about the budget.

I really hope that Bolton guy gets what is coming to him. He's so damn evil.

Lots o' space...

I finished the book today, I'm not sure if I liked it.  I wish it had more of Bran's story, his was the one I found most interesting. Which is funny, considering the post above me. Ha. Followed by Arya, who is also not in it much.

Is Bran's

how the reader is going to end up finding out Jon's Mom and all that? He's suddenly a flashback machine!

I need to get the fuck out of this thread.   Damn you speed readers.   DAMN YOU ALL!!!

I have also finished the book...

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How is he going to wrap this up in the next book? Isn't that book going to be released next year?  None of the characters are where you expect them to be at this point in the story.

As for Arya

As for Jon Stark

Speaking of Varys

Which leads me to Tyrion

but then Cersei

Of course, if I talk about one queen, I need to talk about the other

Finally,   I have got more, but I am tired of putting it in spoiler tags. :D

There are 2 more books, not one, but I dread him extending it to 3...

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I finished it last night. I enjoyed it better than Feast, but it's pretty apparent now where he went wrong. The first three books consist of disparate POV characters that weave together to tell a coherent story. The POV's are important and feature characters that experience growth and development in addition to functioning as a window into the events of the story. The POV characters may well die, but their presence and death serves a purpose, and is shocking if it happens because we've got to know these people.

Starting with Feast and continuing through Dance that is no longer the case. Gone is the clean and elegant system of providing us with POV characters who are actual characters developing and changing as the story unfolds. Instead we get POV characters that function entirely as info-dumps. Areo Hatoa isn't there for one chapter because we give a shit about his story. He's there because the author needs to convey one bit of into, and he can't be bothered to find a way to do it. Barristan Selmy isn't featured as a POV character because the author wants to tell us his tale and use that tale as a way to unveil the plot; no Selmy is featured as a POV character after 90% of the book is done for two chapters because the author has no other way to convey the information he wants to convey. And the truly ironic part of all of that is that unlike the boring, wheel-spinning Dany chapters his replaced, the Selmy POV's are actually interesting. Had Martin written Dance they same way the first books were written with Selmy as an actual real POV character from the start replacing Dany on a lot of the Mereen chapters the book would have been much better served. It would have remained consistent with the first three books, given us interesting insights into an interesting character, and presented the plot to us as we watched that character develop and reveal himself. 

Worst is the Quentyn Martell chapters. He's a boring, lifeless character doing boring things for four chapters before he dies a pointless, yeah-I'm-dropping-this-plot-thread death. Eddard's death matters because we've got to know him, and it's a pivotal plot event. The same is true of the Red Wedding deaths, and Joffrey. Martell on the other hand isn't anyone we give a shit about. Aside from the events of the last page or three of his last POV chapter would anyone have noticed had they not been included? And those events could easily have been handled half a dozen ways.

There's also what feels like a significant amount of ret-conning and/or writing to respond to critics/fans. It's pretty clear that Tyrion's acrobatics when mentioned off-handedly during his intro scene in Game are a mistake, something Martin forgot to change. It's entirely inconsistent with everything we've seen of Tyrion since . . . yet Martin decides to try and fix that mistake by suddenly throwing a bit about Tyrion being a trained tumbler at us. It's clumsy. We also get new mis-directs about Jon's parentage, including  possible death, all of which read like "oh balls, they figured out my Rhaegar-Lyanna twist!". I really hope he's not pulling a Hawk/Captain Atom/Extant. The very nature of greyscale as a disease changes, and we get a new character in Aegon whose very existance seems entirely to contradict Varys plans for Dany/Viserys, and pretty much every single member of the Night's Watch grabs the idiot baton simply to advance the plot (forgiving rapists? Cool! Wait, that dude was a wildling farmer who never hurt a fly? We refuse to associate as such, even knowing that doing so will make him die and come back as a wight. Derp.)

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the book. The Victarion chapters were great, as was the lone Jaimie chapter. I liked most of the stuff north of the Neck quite a bit, too. I'm sure I'll pick up the next books on day of release, and probably re-read this one at least once before they drop. I'm just dissapointed that the guy who wrote the first three books seems to no longer be writing.

Not done yet so I ain't reading this thread, but I just finished Davos IV.

I'm about 400 pages in and am guessing that nothing is going to happen in this book to advance the overall plot.

Finished. I'm the rare bird that really liked Feast. I liked how the Faith was a central theme throughout until it all came around to bite Cersei in the ass at the end. I liked the insight in to the Iron Islands culture from the different POVs. I liked the Dorne stuff.  I liked the Littlefinger stuff. I loved the Jaimie stuff. I just really liked the book.

I can't say I liked this one as well. Try as I might, I can't get invested in the Slaver's Bay story line and that seemed to make up the majority of the book. I was thrilled to pieces when the last few hundred pages hit and some of the Feast POV came back.

I was disappointed, but I still found it compelling enough to keep reading.

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This is probably my second favorite book of the series, behind Storm of Swords.  I wasn't bored with a single chapter, and I thought everything was set up nicely for the end book.

I loved Jon's storyline, and the ending of it really threw me for a loop.  I guess next time we see him he's gonna be Azhor Ahai come again.

Dany's story was good too, but she really needs a good councellor with her.  Marrying that one guy was a horrible idea and she should have seen it.

Tyrion's story started off really dark, but by the end of the book he was back to his old self.  I can't wait for him to team up with Danny.

Barriston Selmy was pure awesome in this book.

Quenten Martell - we barely knew ye.  Too bad you got melted.

I can't believe I felt bad for Theon.  The Bolton's are some fucked up people.

Wyman Manderly totally ruled this book.  What kind of guy would feed Frey Pies to the Bolton's and Freys?  lol.  Incredible.

I liked how only the first 500 pages covered the Feast timeline and the rest of the book was all new stuff.  I felt the story was really advancing.  So I wonder what happened with Jamie and Brienne?  Seeing Varys pop up at the end was great.  The whole time I was reading I was like "Where the hell is Varys?"  And what an entrance he made at the end of the book.  lol.  I was honestly shocked that Kevan got killed, along with Pycelle.

Best scene in the whole book:  The execution of Janos Slynt.  Holy crap was that awesome.

I could go on and on, but I want to re-read the book and digest it more.

I couldn't enjoy the Janos Slynt thing that much because I thought "hey, twice before we've had a Stark execute someone early on in a book". 

Man, the Martell's can't catch a break can they? I'd love it if all eight of the Sand Snakes are built up like they'll enact some awesome vengeance only to die right away. 

SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Parts I liked:

Jon Snow always remebering the "You know nothing, Jon Snow" really liked how Jon's character turns out

Barristan's character was a bad ass the whole book, specially in his POV chapter

I was suprised that Martin actually made me feel sorry for Theon, I hope all the Bolton and his bastard die slow deaths

Davos wasnt as boring as in FFC's in my opinion

Jamie's chapter

Danny wipping Drogan I think it was into submisson, I felt she should of had more control over her dragons

love Bran's story and cant wait to see how that plays out

I liked how much ass the dragons kicked the few times they got the chance

Varys killing Kevan=Epic

Cersei's walk of shame

Tyrion's wit, as always

Victorian's POV's

Val is my favorite female char other than Arya

Arya was a total badd ass as always and I was sad that she only got 2 chapters

Coldhands (who I think is benjen stark)

The Areo Hotah i think his name was, was pretty kewl seeing his POV

Parts I didn't like

Pretty much all of Daenery's chapters, while I like the character I dont like the way her story is playing out, I feel the last Targaryen should be more of a baddass and a lot smarter too, seriously that sellsword, comon

How Jon died and his decison to go south

Tyrion never reached Daenery's who gods know could have usen his wits

Hated almost everything about Dario i think its spelled and his role in the book, I disagree completely that she would be drawn to a man like that

The random apperance of Aegon and Connington

How little Arya showed up(my fav char)

The lack of importance the Direwolves played through the whole series, particularly that of Nymeria

and pretty much the way he replaced the importance of characters who have lived thru his first 4 books(an impressive feat haha) with new random characters who seem too sudden,

All in all it just felt like another author from when I read the first 3 books, and parts of the 4th, I will keep with the series but I am sad to say I am dissapointed

O yeah and pretty much how he has shifted the improtance of the book from Westeros to Pretty much all the other places i dont care to look up their spelling, I think he should of used the other places as a support for the story but focused on Westeros mainly that Danny didnt choose to get stranded there making it so now we are following two diff stories almost. and thats about it for now

O yeah and I was SERIOUSLY hoping Val and Jon would hook up some way or another, she's a total badd ass and so is he, and badassist atract other badassist, it is known

Would you guys kindly remember to block out the first couple of lines of your post?  Either hit the "enter" key a few times or preface it with the old "SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER" warning.  I've had a couple smallish details ruined just by scanning down the New Threads page.  Thanks for the courtesy!

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Originally Posted by Mattioli 

Would you guys kindly remember to block out the first couple of lines of your post?  Either hit the "enter" key a few times or preface it with the old "SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER" warning.  I've had a couple smallish details ruined just by scanning down the New Threads page.  Thanks for the courtesy!

I second this.  

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So, I've been skipping back through the book and re-reading some stuff.  The final Dany chapter, where she comes across the Dothraki scout...  I'm thinking that this is all leading up to Danny getting back to her roots by leading a kahlisar and away from "learning to rule."  It seems to me she's more of a conqueror than a ruler.  I keep remembering Maester Aemon's saying about "fire consumes, but cold preserves," and how Dany is all fire and her talent is warfare, but she needs the cold (or "ice") counter-aspect to rule effectively.

Also, really enjoyed how Young Griff (Aegon) listened to Tyrion and how he decided to take his advice and invade Westeros so he doesn't come to Dany as a beggar, but brings something of value to the table.  It seems that Targareans have a real streak of competence to them when it comes to warfare.

I heard an interesting rumor that Varys may actually be some type of Targarean as an offshoot of the Blackfyres, and he's committed to restoring the Targareans to the throne because he's in some way related to them.  Not sure how much truth there is to that theory, but its an interesting one.

Also, now that its been revealed that Mance did not have the Horn of Joramun, I'm thinking its that cracked horn Jon found among the dragonglass cache that he gave to Sam.  Kinda like a "Holy Grail" type thing, where instead of a big, fancy horn, its a simple, practical thing with magic powers.

I'm also wondering about the truth of Ramsay Bolton's letter.  Do you think he really killed Stannis?  I'm guessing not.  I'm hoping that Stannis discovered Karstark's betrayal and somehow used that to his advantage, and when Bolton and his force came, the Manderly's somehow defected to Stannis and was able to crush Bolton's host.  But Stannis's men were in such poor shape, who knows how that played out?  They were only 3 days away from Winterfell, and its possible Bolton's host of Northmen smashed them, but I'm holding out hope its another one of Martin's famous feints.

I was hoping we were gonna get more than just one chapter of Milesandra as well, but we pretty much got the "Jon is Azor Ahai" prophesy from her chapter which tells us how Jon is going to return to life.  I'm just hoping the next book gets Jon, Dany, and Tyrion together.  I would love to see those three interact.

O yeah sorry bout the lack of spaces in my second post

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Just finished the book and what a vast improvement over AFFC.   I was a little miffed about Dany spending all her time in Mereen but it looks like Martin was finally able to untie that knot through a Dragon Ex Machina.   Here's hoping she's finally in Westeros by the first third of the next book.   As for Jon, I hope we're not done with him and that Melisendre saves his life in some way.   That being said, I wouldn't put it past Martin to have actually killed him off.   It follows the theme of the books which seems to be if you follow your heart over your brain, then you're fucked.   My theory is that the letter was faked and used as a way to have Jon killed by his own men.  

I'm thinking the next book will be taking that 5 year jump as everyone seems to be in a place for that now.   We'll soon see.   Over all, a great return to form that makes me hopeful the next books will stick the landing.

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Anyone pick up that quick passage stating that one of the Targaryens basically had some sort of Primae Noctis with Tywin's wife, adding to the theory that Tyrion is one of the 3 dragon heads?

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Finished the book. My favorite part was the Jon chapters. I could read a whole book composed solely of Commander Snow's efforts on the wall. However, his decision to leave the wall at the end doesn't fit with his character at all. I mean, look at his track record:

Father is arrested and accused of being a traitor: stays on wall

Father gets executed: stays on wall

Brother goes to war: stays on wall

Little brothers get killed by Theon: stays on wall

Robb gets killed by one of his own bannermen while a guest at a wedding: stays on wall

His little sisters get married off to the very people who destroyed his family: stays on wall

Ramsay Snow sends him a letter that calls him names: OH ITS ON

Why not just read the letter to the wildings and let them go at it? I'm sure they'd be capable of fucking shit up and rescuing Mance without him. I guess Martin is trying to show that it's not always easy to know what the most honourable course of action is, but Jon's choice at the end still seems sudden and inconsistent.

I was sorry to see Kevan bite it. He was one of the few characters who had his shit together. It's because of him that I was kind of coming around to the idea of King Tommen. Sure he's still a kid, but if he was raised with the right people around him he could still be a good king and bring back some kind of peace. Of course, he (and by 'he' I don't really mean Tommen but the power circle around him) would need to find a way to reconcile the north, and Dorne seems determined to stir shit up any way they can...so yeah, I guess stability was never in the cards for Tommen's reign, even if Kevan hadn't been murdered. It's just I feel kind of bad for the kid, and I don't want to see him become a head on a spike just to make room for Dany/Aegon/Stannis on the throne.

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Just finished it today and I agree in that I didn't get Jon's decision at the end at all, for all the reasons already mentioned.  Totally left me confused for the rest of the book.  He's even told in the letter that Bolton no longer has "Arya" so what's his reason for wanting to go after Bolton.  Also, I think he must survive to become Azor Ahai - and didn't Martin say we'd find out more about Jon's parentage in this book??

Rest of the book was very so-so.  Other than seeing Cersei get shamed more and the wall parts, it was really kind of a dud.  Have to put it below Feast, by quite a bit.

eta - like the Bran parts as well, but feel sad for him :(

A STORM OF

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-- So . . .  how exactly did Brienne escape?  Of all the dangling plot threads, I figured at least this one would have been resolved. 

-- Man, Quentyn Martell has got to be the saddest sack of this entire series.    His storyline was a 900-page 'OOPS'. 

-- Agree with most folks that the Jon segments were the best.  Makes me wonder if this is story is Martin's subtle dig at bipartisanship. 

-- In a series full of nasty, hateful characters, Ramsey Bolton is extra special despicable, isn't he?  He needs a slow, juicy death. 

-- I've got to hand it to Martin: he briefly made me feel sorry for both Theon and Cersei, of all people. 

--- Needed more Jamie and Arya.  And where the fuck was Zombie Catelyn?   However, this time we are 100% Sansa-free.  That alone puts this one a little above FEAST. 

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Originally Posted by Ratty 

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-- So . . .  how exactly did Brienne escape?  Of all the dangling plot threads, I figured at least this one would have been resolved. 

 

Maybe she did end up betraying Jaime?