A Dance With Dragons SPOILER Discussion Thread - Page 2

That's about the only viable theory, I suppose.  Seems wildly out of character for her, though, not to mention incredibly undramatic to leave that betrayal off-screen. 
 

 

600 pages in and I'm loving this.  The Theon chapters especially.

 

Seems to me it'd be out of character for Brienne to let Pod die just because she made an oath to uphold another oath she made to the person hanging her. Not to mention the fact that oaths conflicting with oaths and real life consequences seems to be a theme when it comes to Jamie. And I guess a case could be made that perhaps not the betrayal itself but the decision was on-screen (that one word she said while being hanged in AFFC). 

 

Either way, when we have a respite from fighting to superintelligent cockroaches that will be surely roaming the earth by the time the next book comes out, I'm sure (read: hopeful) the Brienne/Jamie chapters will milk that betrayal well enough, particularly with all the time we've read them thinking of each other. I like the idea of, after all that, watching them in a much more complicated antagonistic position. 

 

And, to echo The Dark Shape's comment, it does blow my mind that it's the Theon chapters, of all fucking people, I enjoyed the most. 
 

 

Anyone want to extrapolate (fanwank) how things will go from what we just read?

 

 

If you have an antagonist like Ramsey Bolton, I'm sure even Joffrey can get some sympathy from a reader.   Who am I kidding?  Ramsey would be the guy I'd root for.

 

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Martin seems to have an annoying habit of taking characters I don't like and having them get their comeuppance from even bigger assholes.

 

Theon from Ramsay and Cersei from the Septon, can a good guy get a pound of flesh please?  Though, admittedly, Jon killing Slynt went a very long way towards that.  I suppose it's not realistic to hope for Tyrion roaming Westeros dispencing bloody justice to the wicked.

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I finished the book a couple of days ago and have been turning it around in my head since then. I definitely like it more than AFFC. I don't know what book people were reading if they're saying that the plot didn't move forward at all in this book. It was kind of apparent to me when Martin finished off what he had left over from his original fourth book and moved into this one.

Tyrion was great, as always. I loved the couple of Bran chapters and would it be too much to ask for some more Arya? Davos was interesting and I'll give it up to Martin for making me actually sympathize with Theon. I'm glad he also made mention of Rikkon and it seems he'll be back in the next book. I don't know why, maybe because of the HBO show, but it seems that RIkkon is the one Stark that's always left out.

I couldn't stand Danys for the majority of the book until she went dragon flying, but then we're left off with her back to being as naive/annoying as she'd been through most of the book. I'm sorry but her continuously saying over and over again, "I'm a dragon! Don't go poking the dragon! Roar," and then not doing shit was pathetic. It made me think of Ben Stiller in one of his movies (they all blend together with me nowadays) and/or our current US President repeatedly stating that he's going to lead and then letting himself either get outmaneuvered or played by Republicans (sorry for injecting politics). I guess Martin really wanted the readers to understand that for all of Danys accomplishments, she's still a fucking kid who doesn't know shit.

I'm interested a bit in Cersei but only because of what Varys said and how he's playing her like a fiddle. It was good to see her brought down a peg with the walk back to the castle and it was good to see a character not giving a fuck about the nobles in the same way they don't give a fuck about the commoners.

Lastly, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Don't tell me Jon Snow is dead. He was my favorite character but he was really thick-headed sometimes throughout this book. I can understand all his actions but you would think that he would be a little more concerned when Ghost starts freaking out. I thought he blew it off too nonchalantly. I also get why he finally decided to go and try to rescue "Arya". I put it down as he was at his breaking point when it finally came to losing all of his family. I just wish he spoke this aloud to his men so he wouldn't end up playing Caesar there at the end. It does make me wonder about the red witch and what's gonna happen with her since Jon looks to be dead now (I recognize the prophecy but you never know with Martin) and Stannis as well. I never like characters that act like they know everything and throw it in other characters faces. Martin likes killing off characters people become connected to so if the prophecy is true, I wonder how long until, and how, Jon comes back. Hell, maybe he survives.

With the way Martin kicked up a notch the magic/supernatural aspect of the books with this one, I do wonder how it's going to be handled on HBO (should the show get that far).

Jon assumed Ghost was freaking because of the giant wildliing boar.

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A lot of plots moved forward.  But my biggest complaint about this book was the way two armed conflicts were built up but not resolved "onscreen."  Stannis marches on Winterfell with a Badass Northman Army to attack the Right Bastard Bolton.  And the battle gets called on account of snow.  Realistic?  Probably.  Satisfying?  Absolutely not.  And then we get the Bastard's letter stating that the battle has already happened?  I realize the letter probably contains a lot of lies meant to provoke Jon and the Queen.  But you can't build up a battle like that only to have it happen offscreen.   Which brings me to the Dany chapters.  A massive assortment of slavers and sellswords are laying siege to Meereen while the Harpy slavers within Meereen are murdering Dany's guards.  To preserve peace, Dany marries a guy who ends up being in league with the Harpy who then promptly tries to murder her.  War is inevitable.  Then Dany jumps on her dragon and flies away.  Last thing we see of Meereen is Selmy (co-MVP of the book) preparing for the battle in Dany's absence.  And the book ends.  After over 1000 pages, no battle to retake Winterfell, no battle at Mereen.  Is GRRM trying to be mindful of HBO's budget constraints while writing now?

For all the fanboy ranting about Martin needing an editor, word is he wrote those battles (or at least the one in Winterfell) and his editor persuaded him to cut it for time. Could make one hell of an opening next time though. 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

True.  It would start Winds of Winter off with a bang.  I think Bolton's letter lets Martin have his cake and eat it too.  Stannis is a great character (rigid view of black and white in a very gray world) and I don't think Martin is done with him.  But he also wanted to provide some provocation for Jon and the Queensmen to act to get things rolling on the Wall.  I'm definitely curious to see how that gets resolved.  As for Meereen, I can see the battle raging when Khal Jhaqo's horsemen come sweeping in with Dany and her dragon lighting people up from the sky.

 

 

To be fair, it's hardly only "fanboys" who offer up this critique.

 

Finished it tonight. Need to sleep on it.
 

What an exhilarating, frustrating, depressing, and ultimately satisfying book. Exhilarating to be back in Westeros, with an amazing cast of characters and the richest world-building this side of Tolkien. Frustrating, because it seemed that every step forward resulted in two steps back for virtually every POV character. Depressing because, well, the damn thing is so full of torture, death, starvation, cruelty and evil that sometimes you'd dread to turn the page. Satisfying because it's fucking Westeros, and whether or not I like how things are developing, or where the chess pieces end up when all is said and done, or the umpteenth description of plate-and-mail or onion soup with leeks, it's still Martin, and the man can weave a yarn like few others.

You pretty much stole the words right out of my mouth. Absolutely LOVED this book, probably my fave of the series.

Just finished this. It's got some serious flaws, and suffers from the same structural sloppiness as AFFC, but it's a big improvement. It is indeed kind of crazy that Theon's chapters are the most gripping. On the other hand, I don't really get the enthusiasm for the Cersei-gets-humiliated chapter. Well, I do, it's what people wanted to see, but still, it seemed kind of obvious and perfunctory. (Why the hell wasn't that in AFFC?)

 

I'd say the series is back on track, inasmuch as it was ever off track (I didn't hate AFFC), even if there's still a bit of messiness, like the lack of the big Winterfell battle.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

After a long delay due to work, I finally finished the damn book. 

 

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I'll go against the grain: I liked the decision not to show the Winterfell battle for the sheer gut punch that was the letter.  Also, fuckin' Ramsay.  Joffrey who?  I made the mistake of reading Jon's final chapter in a very crowded Panera, and I had to make a real effort not to publicly freak out.  Ghost being nervous immediately reminded me of Grey Wind, but I still wasn't prepared for what happened.  Assuming Jon dies and Melisandre brings him back, what do you suppose that would do to his connection with Ghost?

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I don't think Jaime is dead. Or at least, not anymore. Probably executed and given the Kiss of Fire like Brienne, Catlyn and Belric were.

 

Please tell me GRRM didn't actually kill Stannis! He's my favorite king! (Not that I'm happy about Jon either).

 

Speaking of which, way to go, Night's Watch! You have an army of the dead coming out of those caves in the North and to help you defend the Wall you are working with wildmen whose only loyalty to you was through the Lord Commander YOU JUST KILLED!

 

Davos chapters are getting to be one of my favorites (Tyrion can never be supplanted). How is it a former smuggler is turning out to be one of the most honorable characters in saga? If Stannis survives he needs to retain him as Hand of the King.

 

After Davos chapters come the Cersei ones. Hate her with a passion and watching with glee as she sets herself for a fall (Sorry, Kevan, your not interrupting that trainwreck!)

What makes you think...

 

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...that Brienne had the kiss of life?

 

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Wasn't she hanged by Lady Stoneheart? And if so, how else would she come back? INMB

Pod was dangling from the rope.  None of their necks were broken by the drop.

In fact, I don't believe there was any drop.  They were lifted off their feet by the ropes around their necks.  The goal was to strangle, not to snap (I suspect).

 

One way or the other, dead is dead.

Except she didn't die.  She said whatever she said and they cut her down.

Maybe, but I don't remember that being said in the books. The last thing I remember was her saying what she said but still being hung. Your scenario is definitely possible but I'm leaning towards mine given her appearance and manner when she meets Jaime again.

Of course it wasn't said in the books.  A Feast for Crows ends with her saying the word, and she's in about half a page of A Dance with Dragons.  Plus, from what we know of the kiss, if Brienne's alive, then Catelyn's gone.  Beric died for Catelyn to come back.

And now Catelyn's dead again. I can't imagine she wanted to stay around with her children dead and being as she was, revenge or no.

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That strikes me as a fundamental misread.  Catelyn's gone while Lady Stoneheart's here.  And from what we've seen, Stoneheart is nothing more than a machine for hatred and vengeance.  I don't think she'll stop because her children have, ostensibly, died.  I think she'll keep on keepin' on until she's revenged the Starks on every Lannister and Lannister supporter.  Cat, for example, would not have been so quick to hang Brienne.
 

 

That would be awful writing on Martin's part, considering how big her reveal at the end of A Storm of Swords was and subsequent actions in A Feast for Crows are.  I would wager a very, very large sum of money that you're reading the entire situation wrong.

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While we're on the subject, is anyone else REALLY looking forward to the inevitable Lady Stoneheart/Jon Snow confrontation? (Assuming of course Jon Snow is brought back to life...which would make the confrontation even MORE awesome). 

 

I'm also greatly looking forward to Lady Stoneheart confronting Littlefinger. 

 

"Cat! You're looking....well..." 

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You're forgetting...our boy GRRM loves surprises. Besides, I really think it explains Brienne's demeanor, although another explanation could be she's planning on trading Jaime for Pod's life.

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What demeanor?  She knows she's betraying him.  There's nothing in the text to really support what you're suggesting here.

Alright, I finally finished this. It's not good guys, it's really not. Apparently after the excellent SoS, GRRM got lost and started expanding outwards instead of forwards. Very little plot was achieved in this book. Tyrion? Way to make him a character I wanted to skip, instead of a character I loved. Was there anything Tyrion did the entire 959 pages that affected the plot in any way? 

 

Dany had been boring since book one, but this took her boring-ness to new heights. I really don't care who she lusts after. Shit is in this book just to tie up loose ends. I haven't re-read the first few books in awhile, but I certainly don't remember characters popping up for one, or two, or three POV chapters just to get across exposition. Davos, who I love, was totally wasted. His entire point was to let us know he's going after Rickon.

 

Look at where we were at the beginning of the book, then look where we are at the end. Cersei had lost power and was waiting for trial. Cersei is powerless and waiting for trial. Dany was in Mereen doing  jackshit. Dany is still in almost Mereen, hopefully about to do more than jackshit. Victarion was going after Dany. Victarion is still going after Dany. Dorne was secretly plotting to join with the Targaryens and overthrown the Lannisters. Dorne is still secretly plotting to join with the Targaryens and overthrown the Lannisters. That maester from Oldtown was going after Dany. Evidently he still is. Quentyn was going after Dany. Giant dead end. Arya was training with the temple in Braavos. Arya is still training with the temple in Braavos. I can't believe this book took this long to write. Evidently GRRM knows the end of the series, but is struggling with how to get us from here to there.

 

The Epilogue. Oh God that was awful. At least the semi-twist in AFFC was set up from earlier. Cersei is bitten by her own dog - that is, all the bad decisions she's made come back to result in her accused and imprisoned. Varys wasn't mentioned the entire book, then suddenly becomes a Bond-ian supervillain who explains his plan to his dying opponent, AND has an army of dagger wielding children that could have easily been set up earlier in the book (a mere comment on how some new policy had baseborn children serving in the castle, or anything. Varys didn't need kids to kill Kevan.)

 

I'm disappointed, but will certainly gobble up the next book. This world is too detailed, and I am too involved, to not overlook a few lesser tomes. 

Besides sending Aegon to Westeros, thereby kicking off another Targaryen invasion?

 

Yes, he was.

 

I understand your frustration, but a number of your issues aren't particularly fair considering this is pretty much the same story as A Feast for Crows.  Cersei begins this book and ends it waiting for trial, yes... which makes up all of two chapters.  Victarion has two chapters.  There are two Dorne chapters.  It's not like you're being forced to read hundreds of pages.  They're just extensions of the AFFC stories.

 

I realize many of my gripes can be counteracted, literally, but I don't find any satisfaction in it. Yeah, Tyrion sent Griff Jr. to Westeros - which could have been covered in one chapter.

 

 

Varys was probably mentioned, but I don't remember him. Why? I'm not super involved in this world, but the first three books drew me in. Why do I find myself drifting away? I thought AFFC was the worst book out of the first four. I read it when it came out, and then reread it for the first time just this Summer. I liked it much more the second time through - because of the expansion of previous worlds we knew very little about. Maybe in the future I'll feel the same way about DoD, but for the present it feels like 959 pages that could have been reduced by 800.

I forgot to address it, but I'm more than willing to admit Varys was mentioned during some point in the book, and I just don't remember it. However, I'm looking for a build up that will lead to a satisfying pay off, not a mere mention that is used a a TOPSECRETSUPERTWIST

I would call that improvement, as my first read-through of AFFC made me think it was an 800 page book that should be 400!

 

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You mean besides her getting hanged?

Because resurrecting her corpse, thus ending Catelyn's storyline, is totally more likely than just cutting the rope.

 

Yeah, seriously, Nighttrap, just let it go.  Given that we're years away from Winds of Winter, I can't say you're categorically wrong.

 

 

But, yeah, you're categorically wrong.

And you can say that when you can prove it...hopefully soon. Thankfully I just got into the series this year so I didn't have to endure the nine years of waiting. Please George lets not have another decade for the next one!

I'm posting this without reading any of the other posts.

 

All I really want to know is whether I can jump directly to the Jaime, Cersei and Brienne chapters without spoiling the rest of the book. I'd really like to know how their stories turned out.