Lambs versus Fincher

I think it's debateable which is the better movie, but I prefer Se7en. That movie screwed with my head days after seeing it. One of my top 10 horror films, and yes, I consider it horror.

And I agree. EVERYTIME I see it, it fucks with my head. It IS that powerful.

- Fixxxer

Each film is a classic in its own way, but the main reason Se7en is more powerful in my mind is due to the lackluster sequel/prequel that haunt Lambs now. I weep at the thought of a future sequel to Se7en. Please Hollywood, leave it alone.

I agree wholeheartidly with Ryno. "Lambs" is good, but it doesn't hold a candle to "Se7en".
The picture has a unique look ( often ripped-off), incredible moments of intimacy AND pure terror, and a sweet credit sequence (see above rip-off quote).
A cheese ass sequel would be bad, but nothing could tarnish this masterpiece...

"What's in the box?"

The music is Bach's "Air on the G String"

Eventhough I feel it's a bit overrated, you must include HENRY: PORTRAIT OF A SERIAL KILLER as a top 1990's serial killer film ...

I don't feel it's fair to think less of SILENCE OF THE LAMBS because of the lousy ( IMHO ) sequels, I mean, I still think SE7EN is effective even after seeing K PAX

It's tough to compare the films, both are great, and both have great performances all 'round ... If I were thrown in a well and forced to choose, I think I'd have to go with Clairce and Buffalo Bill eventhough the end of SE7EN is perfect ...

On a related note, anyone ever see RESURRECTION with Christopther Lambert ??? ... A SE7EN rip of sorts, but well worth checking out ... Great underrated 90s serial killer film, along with the lesser BONE DADDY ( Rutger Hauer ) ...

SE7EN is an awesome film, and a great modern throwback to film noir. I think the design of it all does have a huge influence, but the atmosphere of the movie is just downright creepy. Every inch of casting is perfect too. I love Lambs as well, although I think Manhunter is also on its level, but SE7EN for me is for me the best thriller of the 90s.

While Se7en was very good, I still feel that Silence of the Lambs is the greatest serial killer movie of the 90's. I don't buy the notion that Lambs is lessened by a bad sequel. Was Psycho lessened by several shitty sequels? Nope. I also sort of like the movie Hannibal as a romantic comedy. So there. There were a lot more things going on in Lambs and it had two wonderful maniacs for the price of one. When the Se7en killings start, you know there are going to be 6 more killings and that is all it will be about. Se7en had a great punch in the stomach ending but I remember watching Lambs for the first time. Lecter's escape, the cops raiding the wrong house, Clarice in the dungeon and Lecter stalking the soon to be eaten Chilton as the end credits roll all pack an impressive wallop. Se7en is all one note. Of course it is a gruesome and depressing note, so that is a good thing. The Se7en Platinum edition DVD is fantastic and well worth the double dip. Yeah, I bought the first flipper DVD of Se7en when that came out. I was more than somewhat pissed when I found out I had to get up to turn the goddamn thing over halfway through the movie.

Sorry, got to disagree with whoever said they liked Bone Daddy. It's HORRID.

And Rutger's looking even more fat and useless than Sensei Seagal these days.

I'll say this about Se7en. When I first saw the flick, I was amazed that a movie could make me think about it 24 hours for the next 3 days. Then I see Fight Club, and again, I'm thinking about the movie 3 days later. That Finch' is the man.

But seriously, Se7en to me, isn't just an entertaining movie. It's almost like a school lesson in humanity. I almost can't blame John Doe for the acts he committed. ALMOST. I see what he did in the movie, and my first reaction is "my god, that is a sick, sick concept. What a vile piece of turd", but then I look at the world around me. Society is getting worse and worse. Like John Doe said about the female victim, she HAD a choice. Sure, he was fucked up, but he didn't kill her. This is the kind of society we live in, where a woman would rather kill herself than live disfigured?

Again, I look at the world around me. Could I blame her for taking her life? We live in a cruel society, whether you think so or not. Does a prostitue deserve to die? I don't think so...but John Doe's statements stuck with me, and made me think about it. I don't think anyone innocent deserves death, but how innocent is a prostitute when she is spreading STD's like HIV?

I don't agree that the idea of what John Doe is right, but I think that John Doe's purpose was to bring a light to what a shitty society we humans can be sometimes. In a world where human life is taken over a few dollars, or people are murdered because they were mean to the nerd in high school, I can only wonder how far off from being good, were John's intensions. Did John have some valid points? Maybe he did and went about them the wrong way, but either way, I see John Doe and I think about what a wake-up call he is.

Maybe I went too deep into this, but this is how much of a powerful effective movie Se7en is to me. There aren't many horror films that really make me think consistantly about them a week after seeing them, but Se7en is one of them.

- Fixxxer

Eventhough I just watched BONE DADDY again on HBO or Cinemax and thought it was a little lame and talky on second viewing, I still think it's worth checking out ... and while we're talkin' cheezy serial killer films, how about a double feature of BONE DADDY and JILL THE RIPPER w/ Dolph Lundgren ??? ...

In my own strange way, I'd totally be up for that ...

... thinking t would be fun to post a pic of Dolph ( ? ), I just did a search for "Jill The Ripper" at google ... what I got was a guaranteed nightmare 2night: <img src="http://www.casebook.org/images/pearcey.jpg" alt="" />

... scariest fuckin' thing I've seen since Jocelyn Wildenstein ...

While I love Seven (the Paltrow/Freemen scene is great and the scene with Freeman alone in his room with the knife also is great), I believe Silence is the best serial killer movie of the 90's. You can't beat the relationship between Clarice and Hannibal (or the performances themselves). Just a notch above Seven in my book.

I think Seven rocks. While Lambs was wonderful in its own right it plunged too deep into the world of law enforcement for my comfort. I'm not very interested in forensics and stuff. Lambs does have its good points but lets face it, David Fincher rocks!

Chalk up another vote for Seven.

Saving the appearance of the bad guy for much later in the film works very well for it. Most thrillers, including Lambs, abandon the hero's viewpoint repeatedly to see the killer do his/her thing, and that often seems awkward. It creates another problem in that the bad guy needs to be pretty horrific for the film to stand up to repeated viewings without seeming hammy. Silence wags around two bad guys throughout the film, and they're both a little wacky.
Seven approaches its subject more from the horror film angle than the standard thriller angle, dwelling on grue, frustration, hopelessness, and inhumanity. There aren't many detective stories that do that. It gives the film a lot more weight.
And it looks better, too.

To me, Seven has all the feeling of a grand old gothic giallo as well...but I think tha's just a great marketing gimick that the story then builds on so expertly.

The difference is eesentially that while Silence... if taken from the pages of real life (the commentary on the Criterion disc makes it plain that, while working in fiction and abbreviating processes and protocol, Harris is a hardcore FBI honorary, and so much in the film is traceable to real life cases) Seven is a more overt commentary on the state of a nation that causes those real life crimes to occur.

Necessarily more pulpy than Silence...'s less stylised approach, I find that Seven's trump card is to root it's genesis not in real life but in similar works of high art that mine the same dreadful flaws of humanity that Silence...'s true crime-inspired headlines bear witness too (Dante, Milton etc etc). It takes on an intensely (though obvious) metaphorical quality that almost preserves it from face value comparison with heavy weight contenders like Silence Of The Lambs.

Spacey's rantings ansd ideas then become at once terrifying and hilariously overplayed. Yet all the time retaining the gravity of all good satire (and it can be taken as a grossly satirical right-wing polemic) - it's so near the truth, though totally hyperbolic, as to be uncomfortable to an audience.

It's easy for an audience to sit there and gasp and morally smite the actions of a confused transexual wannabe as he toys with fat girls and at Lector twiddling his imaginary moustache so wonderfully. It's safe for us. Scary to think about, but ultimately a good vs evil fight to the death.

Seven though, goes far beyond what would normally be the tragic achilles heel of the talking killer's "how I dunnit" speech and uses it brilliantly to turn the motives back on tha audience. We've all lauhged at the fat kid, guffawed at the mutton dressed as lamb posh lady, gritted our teeth in envy and pissed scorn on the rich guys taking our liberties for a buck and change. We've all done it. So has the person siting next to us.

Classic detective stories are wonderful examinations of society at large. But films like Seven and Henry: Portrait Of a Serial Killer seem to be probing deeper than that, They're examinations of people who are really just like us.

And that's scary.

Just curious, muncie, but what is "grue?" Is it a typo, or a word I'm unfamiliar with? I looked up "gruesome," and it said "from English dialect grow, grue to shiver." "Grue" was not listed, however.

Also, chalk up one more vote for Se7en. I think Lambs is terrific, but Se7en is just a better film all-around. There is so much more to it than just the "serial-killer vs. cop" story. Fincher finally came out blazing with this one.

[edited to fix quote]

Limey slang for guts and bleedy stuff . I s'pose.

Silence of the Lambs for me, all the way. Hopkins nailed it, this one time. A very sophisticated, surprisingly uncomfortable thriller for the mainstream blockbuster it was.

Seven is a good-looking but ultimately empty effort by comparison. However, I maintain that with the addition of one fairly obvious twist this movie could have been something special...[POSSIBLE SPOILERS]
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For most of the movie I was expecting Freeman's sensitive, despairing detective to be revealed as the crazed killer. This, I was hoping, would be Seven's redemptive moment.

Alas, it was somewhat disappointing then to see Kevin Spacey, especially so soon after The Usual Suspects, wheeled out as the rather uninteresting wackjob. It felt like Hollywood playing safe again. A failure of style over substance.

Yes, that's the way I'd always heard that word used before, and that's the way I meant it. But I'm completely puzzled now--I can't find it in any online dictionaries either. The more I think about it, the more I think it's probably something that came from Mad Magazine many years ago. If it really is a legitimate word, it's probably archaic. Sorry about that. I feel extra dumb.

But while I'm posting again, I'd just like to say that this is a great thread. Everyone's making really good points, and I'm really enjoying reading it.

Heh, okay, now I feel better.

grue derives from the scandinavian (we were raped and piledged by Vikings here in the UK remember) meaning "to shudder". Hence, grue-some. Terror inducing.

I guess it's use as a noun to signify gore is entirely apt.

Having not seen either film in some time, bear with me here ...

Strax, the points you bring up are very interesting, as usual ... However, one thing that no one has really touched on yet is the fact that sexuality, and sexual relationships, have a much bigger and more important role in SILENCE OF THE LAMBS ... In SE7EN, victims are chosen having nothing to do with their sexuality or gender, and the relationships between characters are caring, but "standard" ( for lack of a better term ) ... While there is no need to develop John Doe in a sexual light, Buffalo Bill and Lecter's characters are rife with sexual hang-ups, dysfunction and confusion ...

Yes, what is in all of us can be very scary, however, what is in the person next to you, that odd, unexpected or terrifying secret, THAT is also truly scary ... And that is why, for me, Buffalo Bill is the most terrifying of all mentioned ... The scene with him loading the couch into the van, and more so, the scene in which Clarice enters his home and is actually speaking with him, those are truly horrifying for me ..... We never see John Doe in a setting in which we, the viewer , could encounter him ( other than the rather scary moment he is posing as a photograper ... THAT is the scariest moment for me in retrospect ) ...

Had SILENCE been just Lecter, I wouldn't be saying any of this ... Hopkins was very good, but Lecter doesn't scare me ... Buffalo Bill, and his shuttered and secret life, scares the crap out of me ...

Not to completely derail this thread, but I just want to say thanks to those who cleared up my grammar query. It seems my dictionary was correct in attributing it to the word for "shiver" or "shudder."

And don't feel dumb, Muncie. I should feel dumb for not knowing the word. Also, you mentioned Groo, the Mad Magazine spin-off comic that I subscribed to as a kid! Therefore you can do no wrong in my eyes.

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