Sons of Anarchy season 4 - Page 11

I totally roger the stupidity of Trejo and his second having badges.  Are they 1) cartel guys working with the CIA or 2) are they US agents working WITH the cartel or are they undercover US agents pretending to be cartel agents.  Or is Trejo just playing Machete.  The badges seem to indicate 2.  But some of their actions indicate otherwise.  Probably just a "roll with it" detail, though.

As for the CIA, I totally get that.  That is an old movie/TV trope...agency dick waving and lack of communication.  I can totally buy the CIA swooping in to save their private war at that moment.  I'm sure there is a reason they want to be behind the scenes and all that.

I don't honestly care much about the CIA aspect.  It isn't like the CIA and SAMCRO will be friends and SAMCRO is "backed" by the CIA.  The CIA has all of the leverage (now).  SAMCRO is just a low level informant with a big brother (the cartel).  I presume that will generate significant stress next season between Jacks and the rest of the club.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

I was thinking myself that it doesn't seem like Sutter has had enough ideas to fill the number of season he's been doing. Heck, I originally thought the "Clay killed Jax's dad" storyline was going to be addressed in SEASON ONE! The stretching the show has always done with its plotlines has from day one been the main reason that SoA has been a "solid B" show for me rather than in the rarified air of "A" shows.

 

But "solid B" isn't an insult. I'd give most shows a "D" or worse. There's a lot of good stuff here, far more good than bad IMO. It's just that the bad isn't so small as to be possible to ignore.

 

Yep, agreed on both points though my guess is that it's not so much a lack of ideas, as Sutter's perceived need to stretch those key ideas out over seven seasons. I don't think his story fits a seven-season arc. It's not like The Wire, that had ideas and scope to burn over its five (Though to be fair I think that negatively comparing SOA to The Wire doesn't make sense after a point; these are vastly different shows in intent, theme and tone) In my perfect world, someone would've sat Sutter down before they even shot the pilot and said, "Okay, this biker epic of yours? You get three seasons, no more, no less. Three seasons, do EVERYTHING, and get out. No arguments, no renegotiations - three seasons" If that had been the gameplan, I think SOA would've been an all-time classic.

Instead we have Sutter dragging it out to fit seven seasons. I mean, most of S3 was a drawn-out baby chase that could've been summed up in one or two episodes (Or arguably have been jettisoned altogether)! A lot of the bad stuff is very much worth highlighting, but I think at the same time you have to take the show at face value and... Well, perhaps not exactly forgive its more prosaic aspects, but at least understand them in the context of the show they're trying to make. Sutter was very blunt in his blog post: this is a soap opera for men, and in those terms the narrative achieves what it's designed to. Of course, we as fans get frustrated because we see such potential in these characters for something tighter, grittier and more ruthless, and that potential is certainly there. However, that isn't what Sutter has created. I know it took me a while to get comfortable with that, but now like you I see way too much good in the show to let this stuff get to me too much. It's not that my standards dropped, more that I've become more willing to accept the show's soapier/pulpier/cheesier intentions while acknowledging the missteps.

Not that we give the bad stuff a total pass, you understand, but more that we criticize where it's due and not get too worked up about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by First Class 782 

I totally roger the stupidity of Trejo and his second having badges.  Are they 1) cartel guys working with the CIA or 2) are they US agents working WITH the cartel or are they undercover US agents pretending to be cartel agents.  Or is Trejo just playing Machete.  The badges seem to indicate 2.  But some of their actions indicate otherwise.  Probably just a "roll with it" detail, though.

It's weird because things like the Martinez character badly wanting to kill Laroy and his gang for working with a rival suggests they're cartel. But the badges would only make sense if they're agents of some kind. And if they were agents, it would also explain the Good Guys faces that Trejo and Martinez put on while explaining to Jax that they never intended to kill Tara but instead planned on placing her in protective custody (compare with the cartel killer hard looks they were giving rest of season).

Reading that Sutter link, I'm glad that at least he seems to know exactly what his show is. Despite all the fun Shield references within the show, I get the feeling he realizes that it is no The Shield, and never will be. Also even though Clay surviving wasn't exactly a huge surprise, it's good to know that Perlman will be sticking around for future seasons. Hunnam, Sagal, Siff, Hurst, etc are all pretty good actors but really Perlman is the only one who ever elevates the material above "adrenalized soap opera" and so his presence is vital. Well there's Coates too, but he was pretty much wasted this season.

 3 seasons would have been perfect.....beginning - middle - end.  Have it all mapped out ahead of time...no loose ends.

A lot of what's on TV could be better with this mini-series style format.

Although, given the nature of TV and the people running it, if a tv show is a big, monster hit...there will be pleading by "the suits" to continue it ad nauseam. 

that being said, I wouldn't mind one more season of Deadwood (to tie things up) and I am looking forward to more Arrested Development (crosses fingers)

I'm not sure that 3 seasons is all the show could've handled, because the cast and relationships are all so, so good that there is plenty of material to be mined there.  I'm also optimistic that when the end is in sight and Sutter no longer feels the need to strain to keep Opie and Jax and Clay at the same table, or to keep the club large and cohesive enough that fretting over it's fate in the abstract doesn't feel false*, we'll see some of the best stuff the show is capable of.  It depends how the next few years play out, but it could very well be that there was enough good story for 5 seasons.  Just not 7. 

Because deus ex aside, the show is repeating not just stock crime drama beats, but itself.  We've seen the FBI swoop in during the season finale and pull an informant out of an ATF fire with Zobelle.  We've seen Jax find out about Clay murdering part of Opie's family and deciding he has to sit on it for the good of the club.  We've seen Opie find out that Clay murdered someone he loves and being convinced to keep his peace.  We've seen Tara embrace her inner Old Lady before (although this was easily the best executed version of that arc).  We've even seen Jax working with the law behind the club's back, which although it was a very different dynamic that I disliked for its own reasons, was also pretty recent. 

The good thing about the finale is that even if it didn't come by it honestly, the new club dynamic they've set up is so different that next season will have to be quite a change from what's come before.  And honestly, it's hard not to be excited by it.  Sure, Jax taking the gavel had a certain tragic undertone to it if we're completely in his shoes, but I like the club as a whole more than I like him.  And having Jax, Opie and Chibs take up the leadership patches and Juice step up while the less sympathetic outlaws are pushed aside is about the best possible outcome for the club.  

*Something The Shield had a bit of trouble with toward the end.  They still wanted to The Team to be a thing that they could talk about and test Vic's loyalty to, but after a certain point it couldn't work as institution/ideal anymore because it was just Ronnie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd 

Wait, you didn't like when they killed Dutch? That was awesome.

I thought Jax and Tara banging with him the room was too over the top for me to take. Plus Dutch is awesome and I was disappointed to see him go. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

Uh, good for you?

 

I've never understood comments like this. It can't possibly add anything to the discussion, since you're not even watching. It sounds like cherrypicking comments to support your own decision then letting us know how smart you are (and how dumb we must be to still be watching).

 

For all you know, you'd have found dozens of hours of TV you'd love. But if patiently following threads on shows "you never got into", waiting for your, "A-HA!" moment of vindication is more entertaining than actually watching and discussing shows, more power to you. :)

I think you're vastly overestimating my motive here. I'm not trying to make anyone feel dumb or myself smart. And I'm not patiently following this thread either. I like to drop in on discussions about serialized crime shows to see how the narrative beats play out even if I'm not following them weekly. This one in particular because I think it was gaining some interesting buzz. It sounds to have dropped the ball and I voiced my surprise. Definitely wasn't intending to ruffle your feathers. 

Anyone bought this yet?

www.amazon.com/Songs-Anarchy-Music-Sons-Season/dp/B00631VJIC

Pros: That amazing Spanish language The Times They Are A-Changin, and Sagal's rather nice Preacher Man cover

Con: New improved House of the Rising Sun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

I'm not sure that 3 seasons is all the show could've handled, because the cast and relationships are all so, so good that there is plenty of material to be mined there.  I'm also optimistic that when the end is in sight and Sutter no longer feels the need to strain to keep Opie and Jax and Clay at the same table, or to keep the club large and cohesive enough that fretting over it's fate in the abstract doesn't feel false*, we'll see some of the best stuff the show is capable of. 

I definitely agree that the cast and characters have enough about them to sustain several seasons, but as you mentioned that character time kind of comes at the expense of dragging the story out. It going to be inteesting to see how Sutter handles Clay next season, as all story logic has pointed straight to him dying. Jax has the gavel, Opie is (Maybe) V.P. and we already see indications of what the other Sons feel about it. It already feels like that final stage of the story we've talked about, yet Clay's still alive and there's three seasons to go. With Clay demoted and disgraced, it'll be a case where Sutter either finds interesting new ways to take the club dynamic, or it'll just feel like the show really not wanting to put a full stop on the central conflict and commit to letting the story play out naturally.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

 

Although, given the nature of TV and the people running it, if a tv show is a big, monster hit...there will be pleading by "the suits" to continue it ad nauseam. 

 

that being said, I wouldn't mind one more season of Deadwood (to tie things up) and I am looking forward to more Arrested Development (crosses fingers)

Remember, Sutter wanted seven seasons from the start. While I'm sure the network is benefitting from the show lasting, there's also a cultural thing to consider. American TV has a tendency towards keeping shows running for as long as possible, and treating overall story arcs as being as flexible depending on how soon the showrunners want a story to conclude. Personally, I'm a fan of the British philosophy which stresses quality over quantity, though with American shows the success of their extended existence is based on the nature of the central arc or concept. SOA is a weird one in that regard - you have characters you could watch forever, with a story that is very clearly designed with a particular scope and doesn't necessarily suit a meandering approach. if this was just 'Fucking Awesome Bikers Being Awesome Weekly'I would still totally watch that. Weirdly, it's this epic story arc of Sutter's that creates a kind of conflict between enjoying these characters, yet wanting the bloody story to get on with it.

 

Sutter will have a meltdown if he ever listens to the latest Firewall & Iceberg podcast.

"The Duex ex machina of Romeo as CIA would be horrible in any genre".

"Sutter may think he's just making a pulpy soap opera but he fails at that too".

Those guys do get a bit snarky sometimes but I agree with most of their points.  Unfortunately they don't comment on the "critics are cunts, or maybe half-cunts" stuff but it's still a fun listen.

I've been mulling on it I think the excellent performances are enough to salvage the finale and the weaker plots of the season, like the ridiculous Charming Heights nonsense.  And I admit I am interested in what happens next.  The trouble is anytime something serious happens I'll  think nothing will come of it.   Look at season 2.  Gemma was gang-raped.  The consequences of that rippled through the season.  The episode where she told Clay and Jax was the best in the entire series.

The show has always been the pulpy soap opera Sutter claims it is, it's just that it hits such frequent and sustained highs where it transcends those bounds that when it reverts it's extra disappointing.  But also, being a soap excuses you from parts of logistic believability, not emotional believability.

I don't care that the club was involved in a 15 vehicle high speed gunfight on a crowded interstate that left at least one dead body in front of dozens of witnesses, which did not even appear to make the local news.  I do care that Opie ignores Jax's threat that he will kill him and shoots Clay, but gives up after Jax shoots him in the hand.  I don't care that the Sons didn't leave one guy behind to kill Zobelle at the end of season 2.  I care that Juice shrugged off murdering a fellow member who hadn't done anything wrong.

Of course there's a limit to the logistical stretching you can do too.  What's extra frustrating about this season is that I can think of a handful of minor tweaks that would make the nonsense go down smoother off the top of my head, but they couldn't do the really basic legwork to make the twists not insulting in their unbelievability.

It's a shame to see Sons not make any of the year-end best lists I've come across when the entire season up to the finale was widely well-reviewed (not least of which because it may drive Sutter completely insane, and I don't want to find out that the baddest gangster in Oakland who will be terrorizing the club moonlights as an online TV critic).  Just goes to show how big a shadow an ending casts over an entire story, despite how much writers like to talk about the journey being more important than the destination.

Not helping anything was "To Be" being followed so rapidly by the terrific Boardwalk Empire and Homeland finales, which without getting into spoilers for either, did exactly right the things that Sons did wrong in its conclusion.

I don't seem to recall Season 2 making anyone's list either. But yeah, that ending deflated rather than exploded the tension accumulated during the season. I didn't see Boardwalk making too many lists either, which is Grade A Bull Shit.

Boardwalk made the end of a couple, and the guys at Hitfix said they would have ranked it higher if they didn't have to make their lists before seeing the finale. 

It sucks that this season is going to go down in so many people's memories as a misfire, because 80% of it was really great.  And one poorly-executed twist soured so much of it.

If you could somehow excise the CIA twist and inject some balls into Clay's fate, this would have been the best season of the show by a fairly wide margin.

Of course you would also risk Perlman's fans acting the way Pitt's fans reacted to the Boardwalk finale.

I have an acquaintance who works on the Boardwalk set.  Their claim is that the initial story arc for the season was not to...

- SPOILER -

... have Pitt's character killed.  However, after his on-set drunkeness during season one's filming only got worse during the first have of season two's production, the producers made the call.  A shame, as I really enjoyed the character, but, as a benefit to viewers, it did make for a fantastic season ender.

You could even keep the big story points if they just put some more thought into having them play out believably.  For example:

Bring the IRA contact into the picture earlier in the season and establish his rapport with Clay/friction with Jax more concretely, so his refusal to work with anyone but the former doesn't feel so arbitrary.

Have the CIA only decide to work with Galindo after they wipe out the rival hit squads in Cali.  It makes a ton more sense for them to be backing the winner to clean up a mess that's already made than for them to have let a drug war be waged on American soil by unreliable proxies, all in service of this inane deal they masterminded from the start.  And they still end up shutting down RICO. 

Jax tells Opie "we need Clay, you have to trust me."  Opie responds, "Give me a reason."  The logical thing to do next would be to explain that Jax found out that Clay killed his father too and put out a hit on his wife.  So he has exactly the same reasons to want him dead, but the reasons he can't explain right now are still compelling enough to make him wait.  Instead, he just shakes his head. 

Have Juice kill Kozik instead of Miles, and pay some god damn attention to that fact.  That way his getting released by a lazy deus ex macchina has darker undertones to it, as he's forced to continue to live in the brotherhood he's betrayed, and his emotional turmoil is focused on a crime we saw him commit rather than a father that neither he/we haven't met.

I think if you change those things, you get all the pieces in the same place going into next year without logic and believability taking such a pounding.  And I do want to see where things go from here, as the new set up is intriguing.

I finally caught up to this show. Didn't know much about it, but got hooked on the 1st and 2nd season via Netflix.

The baby chase on the 3rd season was really getting on my nerves, but this season is getting into Lost levels of stupidity with characters acting too dumb and not being more curious about just what the hell is going on.

Hey Gemma's face looks like Jigsaw from the Punisher, ah no problem, just come minor husband/wife dispute.

Hey Opie, Clay and Tig got your wife killed. Well, all is forgiven as Clay says this season "that's history". This is a show were characters kill other people for much minor infractions.

Hey Opie, Clay killed your old man, but we can't kill him. I'll explain everything at the "right time".

Your wife is under threat of being assassinated by Mexican cartels, and the protection you provide? Overweight "prospects" to guard her!

"What does your birth certificate say" was that supposed to be intentionally funny?

The whole thing with the letters gets ridiculous once these characters realize that things like photocopiers (that make more than 1 copy) and scanners exist in this world.

When Trejo and company showed up, it was a bit comical, I thought the cartel accidentally had parked in the big federal law enforcement meetup and were going to ask what the hell was going on. The badges ... oh boy.

At least the finale does setup an interesting dynamic, when I think most people assumed Clay was a goner. The mechanics of how that happened were clumsy, but it should be interesting to see how this plays out.

Hey, Capitan, good to see you back around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica 

Hey Gemma's face looks like Jigsaw from the Punisher, ah no problem, just come minor husband/wife dispute.

Hey Opie, Clay and Tig got your wife killed. Well, all is forgiven as Clay says this season "that's history". This is a show were characters kill other people for much minor infractions.

Hey Opie, Clay killed your old man, but we can't kill him. I'll explain everything at the "right time".

Your wife is under threat of being assassinated by Mexican cartels, and the protection you provide? Overweight "prospects" to guard her!

"What does your birth certificate say" was that supposed to be intentionally funny?

The whole thing with the letters gets ridiculous once these characters realize that things like photocopiers (that make more than 1 copy) and scanners exist in this world.

 

When Trejo and company showed up, it was a bit comical, I thought the cartel accidentally had parked in the big federal law enforcement meetup and were going to ask what the hell was going on. The badges ... oh boy.

 

At least the finale does setup an interesting dynamic, when I think most people assumed Clay was a goner. The mechanics of how that happened were clumsy, but it should be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

If anything, I thought the Gemma beating was overblown.  Okay, I can see Jax freaking out because it's his mother and he's always a half step from blowing up on Clay, but for Tig to get all bent out of shape about it felt wrong for his overtly misogynistic character and the untrue to the world these guys live in. 

Jax's non-explanation to Opie was really terrible, particularly because there was an obvious way to make the case more effectively that he just...didn't.

The club's stretched rather thin throughout the last several episodes, with Bobby and Juice MIA and Miles and Kozick dead, so leaning on the prospects seems like the only viable option.  Don't mind that.

I think the birth certificate thing was meant to be, at least sorta, funny.

The letters thing was absurd, but I think a lot of us gave it a pass for awhile because it led to some interesting conflicts.  But given how finale limped away from so many of them, it has retroactively become that much more annoying.

Tig has always had a different relationship with Gemma than with other women. There are lots of small moments throughout the show that reveal this. He is very protective of her. "I hate it when mom and dad fight" wasn't just a really funny line.

Well, Season 3 was a mess the whole time but they stuck the landing and made the ending compelling.  Season 4 had a lot less misfires all season long but then wet the bed at the end which (as Schwartz mentions) makes some of the forgiveable bad steps during the season less forgiveable.  There's an enjoyable show in here but it's so uneven sometimes that it gets frustrating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple_72 

Tig has always had a different relationship with Gemma than with other women. There are lots of small moments throughout the show that reveal this. He is very protective of her. "I hate it when mom and dad fight" wasn't just a really funny line.

That's definitely true, and I can see him being a bit upset by it, but by the rules of the MC, Clay was well within his rights to handle his woman however he pleases.  It's not a turn-in-your-badge level of offense (again, by their standards), and Tig's disillusionment with Clay throughout the season was sketched too faintly for it to work as the final straw in that rift.  IMO

Quote:

Originally Posted by A-Pathetic 

Well, Season 3 was a mess the whole time but they stuck the landing and made the ending compelling.  Season 4 had a lot less misfires all season long but then wet the bed at the end which (as Schwartz mentions) makes some of the forgiveable bad steps during the season less forgiveable.  There's an enjoyable show in here but it's so uneven sometimes that it gets frustrating.

I will say that 4 was significantly stronger overall than 3, because it was better for 90% of its runtime.  Their strengths and weaknesses are inverted, but that doesn't mean they come out even in the end.

Gemma isn't just another old lady though, she's basically club royalty and den mother. And even if Tig was a stickler for the MC rules like Jax or Bobby (which I don't think he is), there's "handling your woman" and then there's beating the living shit out of her. He's feeling increasingly alienated by Clay, then he sees Gemma looking like she got run over by a truck, his emotional reaction does make sense. The point is that Tig is all about dirty deeds and going to Hell and back for his club brother, but even he has his limits. This is the same man who held a deep seated grudge for years over the love of a dog.

Schwartz you bring up some very valid points, I also thought about maybe these guys wouldn't be that outraged by seeing a wife/woman beaten like that (ex: Jax beating the porn actress ...), however she was just so disfigured it kind of seemed like it merited a little bit more curiosity from their part. But it's a valid point, these guys are not feminists at all of course :-)

It served its main purpose in driving Gemma and Unser, both of whom have less reason to bow to club protocol than the rest, to take action against Clay.  The problem was that at that point in the season, they didn't have time to really flesh out how it would ripple through the club given Jax and Tig's personal positions at that moment, so they mostly sidestep the issue that by their rules, Clay has every right to do what he did.  When you combine it with how the Juice storyline waffled on the club's racism, it becomes more problematic, because by halfway engaging with these issues, it seems like the show is whitewashing the troublesome aspects of the lifestyle.  Which is much different than simply ignoring them as dramatically inconvenient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica 

Schwartz you bring up some very valid points, I also thought about maybe these guys wouldn't be that outraged by seeing a wife/woman beaten like that (ex: Jax beating the porn actress ...), however she was just so disfigured it kind of seemed like it merited a little bit more curiosity from their part. But it's a valid point, these guys are not feminists at all of course :-)

Actually, speaking of the porn actress that got beat up by Jax, as I remember Bobby was quite disturbed by it, enough to bring it up and throw it in Jax's face that one time. I can imagine their dumb MC rules saying it's ok to slap your old lady as a last resort to keep her in line or whatever, but I'm thinking they draw the line at giving her the Elephant Man treatment. Also unless I'm mistaken they do have rules about "innocents" getting hurt.

And where exactly are these rules explained anyway? Specifically the ones about beating your wife and not having a black dad. Is there a detailed Sons of Anarchy FAQ or something?

Jimmy Smits, eh? That I like.