CAPTAIN AMERICA: The First Avenger - Post Release Thread - Page 9

Well, Watanabe is Japanese. I think it's important for the Mandarin to at the very least be Chinese, which seems like an odd complaint when the character is already so "racist," but the character is very specifically Chinese in nature, so it's pretty important to retain that.

I think you could do it so that the Mandarin is kind of a political revolutionary who wants to reinstate dynastic China, and when he flees the country, charged with treason or what have you for his beliefs, he stumbles across a downed alien (Skrull?) ship with the rings inside. He uses the power to overthrow the Chinese government (maybe covertly assisted by the US?) and then uses his power to start a war, accusing the US of imperialism (a valid accusation). It'd be a nice opportunity to work in some neo-colonial themes, and since the Iron Man movies have actually been fairly critical of US foreign and domestic policy, this would tie in pretty nicely with the political realism angle Black is such a fan of. Mandarin's Fu Manchu beard, elaborate dress, etc. could be explained as an aesthetic he deliberately invokes to situate himself in a certain period of Chinese history (and which Stark can jab at periodically, showing that the movie is at least aware of the stereotypical nature of the character).

But yeah, fucking fanwank over.

Mandarin's half Chinese half English actually.  I'm sure there's done of racial/historical stuff they could play around with.

No matter how well they realize him, there's no getting around the character's origins as a Yellow Peril, and a lot of people are never going to be OK with that. It's like Ebony, from the Spirit. The recent series did a decent job with him, but the character can't escape his own history. And I think there's an argument to be made that that kind of stuff SHOULD be left by the wayside, not "reclaimed". It's just that the world of comics is so insular and backwards-looking that it's hard to streamline characters.

As for Cap storming the beaches of Normandy--I actually feel like that stuff is more or less OK, because Cap was actually created during WWII by a guy who fought in it, which is about as much legitimacy as you can grant a fictional character. I can't imagine actual WWII vets having a problem with it, as long as you acknowledge that it was a team effort and not one awesome dude.

watched that extended ending, I love Nick Furrys answer to why Capo is alive 

"we don't know"

I figure they could change just about anything they needed to in making the Mandarin work on film. I don't have much knowledge of the character, to be honest, but I don't think there's any need to make him anywhere near as yellow peril-y as even, say, David Lo Pan. He's an Asian magician/warlord with alien rings. That seems like a base you can build a great villain from. 

And that's what I really want Iron Man 3 to have, a great villain and/or threat to Tony Stark. It seems like his arch nemesis in the comics would be a good place to start. So unless they wanna go Fin Fang Foom, I'd be starting my IM3 plotting with the Mandarin. But you know who probably knows better than me? Shane Black.

I feel like, aside from Yellow Menace concerns, it is going to be tough to name your movie's villain "The Mandarin" if you don't want to antagonize Chinese distributors, much less get your movie released there at all

It mightn't seem like a big deal to us (for the record I do think the name sounds cool), but I imagine for a Chinese person, it's could well be similar to how the native Americans feel when they see brands of automobile named after Indian peoples - "Jeep Grand Cherokee"

not to be that guy, but isn't this a Captain America thread.  Maybe it's time to start an Iron Man 3 Pre-Release Thread?

Visiting this again, this remains my favorite film of the summer. I think with the Cap - Carter romance and the Cap - Skull parallels, it actually brings some undercurrent and themes to a genre that all too often lacks them.

The Montage doesn't bother me for two reasons. 1) It's a good montage. You get an idea of what Cap and his squad are capable of, the brief glimpses of him doing his thing are convincing. A well-done cliche is still well done. 2) We get the full blown action sequence in the assault on the Hydra base. Too much action would start to get repetitive. How is Cap going to throw his shield to get out of this mess?!?

I bought the drinking scene as appropriate level of grief for Cap. I also like that it served the dual purpose of setting up his regenerative capability. I can see that the audience doesn't really feel the pain of Bucky's death, but it's clear that Cap does.

And the movie looks fantastic. While this commentary is pretty dry, I'm pretty impressed at how much of the set pieces were CGI. It's pretty seamless (except for the zipline on to the train... that's pretty bad).

The cast is just ridiculous. Chris Evans is fantastic in his role and he gives probably the sixth best performance in the movie.

Eh, it was exactly what I expected: A Joe Johnston Joint. With all the good and blah that brings to the table.

A few nice moments, some great ideas not properly realised or fleshed out and not enough action.

Yep, it's a Johnston film alright. Why anyone expected anything different is beyond me - but then some seem determined to pretend The Rocketeer is some unheralded unappreciated classic so I guess there are those that just like making excuses for the guy.

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Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

 

Yep, it's a Johnston film alright. Why anyone expected anything different is beyond me - but then some seem determined to pretend The Rocketeer is some unheralded unappreciated classic so I guess there are those that just like making excuses for the guy.

As one of those guys who loves The Rocketeer, I've gotta say that my appreciation for that film is sincere - I'm not pretending anything. It's not like Johnston's my brother-in-law or anything.

That said, I was really hoping Johnston just had a really small wheelhouse and would equal it with Captain America. I think he missed it by a bit.

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Originally Posted by Sherman Davies 

As one of those guys who loves The Rocketeer, I've gotta say that my appreciation for that film is sincere - I'm not pretending anything. It's not like Johnston's my brother-in-law or anything.

 

No no, I get that, I wasn't really clear. It just seems to me plenty of people give Rocketeer a pass for the concept and idea of it rather than the execution and actual film we're presented with, like most of Ole Joes ouvre.

Oh I dunno, minus another scene in the last act that could've fleshed out the big supporting players, I thought the execution here was pretty damn near perfect. And I'm not even a huge fan of The Rocketeer. But I am a pretty big Cap fan.

Ironically, I'd be happy if Marvel pulled a George Lucas and went back to make alterations on a home video re-release of these movies post-Avengers. If they put the modern-day Cap scene after the first round of animated credits, I would be pretty content with this movie overall. They should really do the same with The Incredible Hulk -- where it's more of a lost cause anyway -- but the final Tony Stark scene was always a really bizarre way to end that movie, especially when the scene prior would've worked so well. I mean, ending a movie about the Hulk with a massive close-up of Tony Stark's mug just irks me on every level.

Wasn't moving the Stark cameo up to before the credits in Incredible Hulk a last minute decision by the studio?  I could've sworn I read that somewhere.

The Stark scene at the end of The Incredible Hulk was poorly thought out. Fury tells Stark in IM2 that he's not wanted on the team, then Stark goes to Ross and says they're putting a team together? They had to ret-con the scene with 'The Consultant'.

I think Favreau mentioned on twitter that THE INCREDIBLE HULK happens after IM2 in the Marvel movie-universe, but he was probably making that up to cover up the inconsistency.  

That, and we probably give these things more thought than the filmmakers sometimes do. It was just nascent Avengers hype - "We're putting a team together."

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Originally Posted by Rando 

I think Favreau mentioned on twitter that THE INCREDIBLE HULK happens after IM2 in the Marvel movie-universe, but he was probably making that up to cover up the inconsistency.  

During the scene when Tony is talking to Nick Fury at the end of Iron Man 2, a news report on the Hulk battle at Betty's campus (halfway through The Incredible Hulk) is on the tv in the background. 

I just want to go to a movie theater and pay for a marathon that starts with Captain America, then Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, and then Thor, followed by THE AVENGERS. That's the chronology, right?

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Originally Posted by Gabe T 

I just want to go to a movie theater and pay for a marathon that starts with Captain America, then Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, and then Thor, followed by THE AVENGERS. That's the chronology, right?

IM2, Incredible Hulk, and Thor take place more or less concurrently. The events in IH are seen on the TV  during IM2, Agent Coulson takes off from IM2 to take part in Thor. I suppose you could watch all three simultaneously, but oh, the headaches.

If I were to edit all the Marvel films together into one ridiculous epic all in chronological order, it would be this:

Cap (skipping present day scenes) -> Opening credits of Incredible Hulk -> Iron Man -> Opening credits of Iron Man 2->Incredible Hulk up to the factory fight->Iron Man 2 to the birthday party->Thor up to his banishment from Asgard->Iron Man 2 to rooftop kiss->Hulk to campus fight->IM2 to Fury evaluation->Incredible Hulk to Days Without Incident->rest of Thor->Rest of IM2->Stark cameo in Hulk->Present day Cap scenes.

Thor really should be hacked up a bit more, with the Hopkins narrated history bit coming before Cap, but I'd prefer to keep the scenes of the individual films in the order they were in for those films.

You forgot to insert The Consultant and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer!?

What kind of half assed operation are you trying to pull?

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Originally Posted by Mike's Pants 

You forgot to insert The Consultant and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer!?

What kind of half assed operation are you trying to pull?

Can leave out A Funny Thing Happen on the Way to Thor's Hammer. The consultant was funny and actually had some good info on the Hulk situation, this one was just who cares? I mean I assumed a guy from Shield should be able to handle himself.

Thinking about this film I realised that it made me think of Captain America in a different way:

Reading the comics, I always felt that the Captain was always the most mature character in the room, and I always attributed that to his age and experience. Chris Evans' performance (and the plot) reminded me that Cap is really a guy in his 20's. His time on ice didn't account of his maturity: it was his experience in WWII and his leadership (of US troops and the Invaders) that made him seem more mature than other Marvel heroes, in the comics and on film.

Having now seen Green Lantern this movie seems 100 times better in comparison. It least this movie makes sense!

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

Having now seen Green Lantern this movie seems 100 times better in comparison. It least this movie makes sense!

Praising with faint damns. And also convincing me Green Lantern isn't even worth borrowing from the library.

Just watched this for the second time, and I'll be damned if this isn't one of the best Saturday morning movies I've ever watched. Just terrific.

Couldn't agree more. I'm watching it now.

I really think there are points where this film flirts with honest to God greatness. Both scenes between Erskine and Steve do so much heavy lifting in terms of character, Evans is brilliant but Tucci nearly walks away with the film.

And of course every word out of Weavings mouth is gold.  

Double Post

Tommy Lee Jones, man.  I heard about him being in this movie and my first thought was paycheque.  Instead his dry delivery KILLS every funny beat that comes his way.  Everything about this movie worked for me.

Absolutely. "He's making me cry!" had me snorting.

Mike's Pants, There are performances above the...good ones.  Tommy Lee Jones and Stanley Tucci were very good.  They pale in comparison to...Neal McDonough as Dum Dum Dugan, Chris Evans as Captain America and the...terrific performance of Hayley Atwell as Cap's...MAJOR Squeeze, the...Lovely Peggy Carter

I agree on Atwell. If that casting had gone wrong, I wouldn't have felt half as bad at the end when the two realise they won't see each other again. For me, it was one of the few romances in modern-day superhero movies that actually worked.

Hey buddy, spare $200? Looks like the maniacs at Hot Toys have done it again, with a mega-high-quality Red Skull action figure.

What a sculpt. You can practically hear Weaving's brow furrowing.

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Originally Posted by MrSaxon 

I agree on Atwell. If that casting had gone wrong, I wouldn't have felt half as bad at the end when the two realise they won't see each other again. For me, it was one of the few romances in modern-day superhero movies that actually worked.

It doesn't hurt that Atwell is pretty close to my ideal woman. I feel your pain, Steve.

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Originally Posted by duke fleed 

Mike's Pants, There are performances above the...good ones.  Tommy Lee Jones and Stanley Tucci were very good.  They pale in comparison to...Neal McDonough as Dum Dum Dugan, Chris Evans as Captain America and the...terrific performance of Hayley Atwell as Cap's...MAJOR Squeeze, the...Lovely Peggy Carter

I agree with Atwell too. I think the last scene where Carter finds the picture of skinny Steve was heartbreaking. She and Evans had a lovely chemistry.

I must say though Duke, I would have killed for more scenes of the Commandos. They were great but were more like extended cameos.

Mike's Pants, I have been reading the Adventures of Colonel Nick at a...FURYous pace since...Captain America threw his...Mighty Shield in theaters this summer.  Since then I have picked up...Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos, Marvel Masterworks Nick Fury Agent Of S.H.I.E.L.D. 1-3, and Nick Fury Vs S.H.I.E.L.D. as well!  I cannot get enough of Nick Fury (even the...Ultimate Nick) or Dum Dum Dugan!  There definitely has to be more of Dugan and the Commandos, even if it were a...dtv!

It's not a bad demonstration of Tommy Lee Jones's greatness, because it was a paycheck gig. He's said as much in (terse) interviews. But yeah, he's great in it.

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Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 

It doesn't hurt that Atwell is pretty close to my ideal woman. I feel your pain, Steve.

YES.

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Originally Posted by Freeman 

Tommy Lee Jones, man.  I heard about him being in this movie and my first thought was paycheque.  Instead his dry delivery KILLS every funny beat that comes his way.  Everything about this movie worked for me.

His delivery on "I wouldn't expect you to understand that, since you're a chorus girl" is so great.  He says it with absolutely no malice, which just makes it cut all the deeper.  He's phoning it in and being really obvious about it, but somehow he makes it work.

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Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 

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It doesn't hurt that Atwell is pretty close to my ideal woman. I feel your pain, Steve.

Amen, Brother Darkmite.  Atwell is every bit my ideal woman.

Rewatched recently and I do enjoy it. Of all the Marvels, I think it delivers the romance and the idealism. I love Iron Man, but he can be a bit jaded. Howling Commandos was too short and too montagey for me. I need more Neal McDonough's fabulously fake moustache killing Hydra.

I just watched this on DVD. I'm not really a huge superhero fan, which is why it took me so long to see it.

I don't really have any idea about Captain America. It's kind of interesting to watch a movie like this when you have no familiarity with the material. A lot of things seem kind of awkward and under explained. Like, why did Hugo Weaving's character have a red head? He got burnt? His head seemed pretty smooth if it was from being burnt. Also when they put Steve in the machine and he came out super strong, why did they decide to make him into a television mascot? They could have got any old actor for that. Why didn't they study him, or use him as proper soldier? It seemed kind of weird. What was that shining blue cube?

It was a space cube? I wasn't sure.

Actually there may have been some explanation for these things in the movie, but my attention was kind of wandering. I liked the beginning, when Steve was skinny. Skinny Steve was much more interesting than buff Steve. I could have watched a whole movie with Skinny Steve. He was cool. But after he became Captain America, and he went to war, things got kind of dull. The movie felt kind of lightweight and a bit awkward and silly. Hugo Weaving was not a very good villain. He was just an annoyed guy who blew up his own  place - another thing I didn't get - and ran away quite a lot. Steve's friend died but I didn't really care. 

But then, the movie turned around for me in the last 20 minutes. The scene with Captain America on the flying bomb was cool. It was kind of cool how Hugo Weaving got sucked up into space. And then when Captain America decided to sacrifice himself to save everyone, it was like Skinny Steve was back. The ending was pretty moving, especially when Carter found the photo of Skinny Steve. And then the very end when Steve wakes up in the 21st Century, that was pretty intriguing. No idea why they had the military base next to times square, but still. The last line was nice.

tldr; the beginning was good, the middle was a bit boring, but the end was good enough to almost make up for the middle. I kind of want to see the Avengers to see what happens to Steve. 

That would be the Cosmic Cube, aka the Tesseract. Also seen in "Thor", it provides a gateway to the Nine Realms of space. It was last seen in the possession of Loki at the end of "Thor", so expect to see a whole lot of it in "The Avengers".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockley 
. Like, why did Hugo Weaving's character have a red head? He got burnt? His head seemed pretty smooth if it was from being burnt. Also when they put Steve in the machine and he came out super strong, why did they decide to make him into a television mascot? They could have got any old actor for that. Why didn't they study him, or use him as proper soldier? It seemed kind of weird. 

 

What was that shining blue cube? It was a space cube? I wasn't sure.

It was the jewel of Odin's treasure room, per Weaving's scene at the beginning. An object of mythic power (and, if you've seen Thor, you gain the further understanding that Norse mythology is at least partly based on historical memory of a race of advanced beings that came to aid humanity). In the comics, it is known as the Cosmic Cube and it can do pretty much any thing. In the movies, it appears to be more of an energy source.

Also when they put Steve in the machine and he came out super strong, why did they decide to make him into a television mascot? They could have got any old actor for that. Why didn't they study him, or use him as proper soldier?

Tommy Lee Jones, presumably butthurt that his chosen soldier didn't get picked, and faced with the knowledge that Steve was unique, wanted to have him studied and perhaps replicated. The Senator, seeing the incredibly positive response gotten by Steve in the aftermath of the chase through NYC, wanted him to generate revenue from war bonds. Steve, obviously, did not want either of those things, but chose being an active participant rather than sitting in a lab.

Like, why did Hugo Weaving's character have a red head? He got burnt? His head seemed pretty smooth if it was from being burnt.

Because that's what happens in comic books when you're the bad guy and you use half finished technology to increase your own power and you're evil. No physiological reason is given other than 1) we know Schmidt was inherently bad and 2) the process wasn't yet perfected... notably, no vita-rays. 

Pretty sure Erskine mentioned that the process exaggerated existing qualities, which is why he wanted to go with Steve and why the Red Skull turned out so twisted.

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Originally Posted by Gabe T 

That would be the Cosmic Cube, aka the Tesseract. Also seen in "Thor", it provides a gateway to the Nine Realms of space. It was last seen in the possession of Loki at the end of "Thor", so expect to see a whole lot of it in "The Avengers".

Cosmic Cube. Noted. My uncanny deductions about its relation to space were on the money, it seems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeI 

Like, why did Hugo Weaving's character have a red head? He got burnt? His head seemed pretty smooth if it was from being burnt.

 

Because that's what happens in comic books when you're the bad guy and you use half finished technology to increase your own power and you're evil. No physiological reason is given other than 1) we know Schmidt was inherently bad and 2) the process wasn't yet perfected... notably, no vita-rays. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoolong 

Pretty sure Erskine mentioned that the process exaggerated existing qualities, which is why he wanted to go with Steve and why the Red Skull turned out so twisted.

Yeah, it just seemed odd how shiny and perfectly red his head was. But I guessed that's the way he was drawn in the comics.

There were some cool subtle effects going on there though; found this online:

Here's my idea for Cap 2. Cap sees what his country has become in the aftermath of 9/11. He fights against it and is declared an enemy combatant by the President who used 9/11 to hold onto power. Make the movie a allegory for for the Bush administration and draw parallels with the rise of the Nazi's after the Reichstag Fire. At the end of the movie, the President (played by Josh Brolin :D) pulls off a mask to reveal himself as Red Skull and that 9/11 was an inside job. Yeah, fanwank but it would make peoples heads fucking explode!

I'm going to watch this again soon in the Avenger leadup so I'll be looking for what you guys are mentioning as positives, but I just can't remember the film being anywhere near as much fun as you guys seem to think. It was light, it was fluffy, it had zero gravitas, the second half of the film felt like one long montage and I have trouble remembering specific plotpoints in the first place. There was nothing iconic here, nothing of weight - using an old school example, where was Captain Americas answer to some of the epic memorable moments in Batman '89? Where was his bat-jet-in-the-clouds or "come on you bastard, come to me"? Did his "with all my power, I couldn't save him" moment have the emotional weight of Donners Superman, or was it left empty and hollow, lost in a glorified montage?

I dunno, maybe theres been so many of these bastards now our standards have dipped, but I just felt this film was so sleight.

I'm looking forward to giving it another go tho, I'd like to find the charm in it you guys did. So far the closest I've come to really enjoying a non-Downey Marvel outing has been Thor - now that was a charming Marvel movie.

Whatever comes of Cap 2 (the screenwriters want to work in MODOK!), we had better AT LEAST get a tease of Red Skull returning for Cap 3.  I don't think we need a fullblown Revenge of the Red Skull flick for the second Cap movie.  Save that for Cap 3 or a Masters of Evil-esque Avengers 2.  Give some other villains a chance first............like Baron Zemo, the aforementioned MODOK, Batroc, etc.  Keep HYDRA intact with a new leader, but save Skull for the third entry.  Evans signed on for six films and has stated the intention is for him to do 3 Cap movies and 3 Avengers films.  Expand the universe of the character before returning to the well.