The Walking Dead Season 2 (AMC) - Page 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

I hate being called an apologist for the show, as if all the specific criticisms in this thread are being applied fairly, or not in the slightest bit nitpicky. Yeah, I agree in general terms that the writing on the show does not knock it out of the park but to use that as a trap door to bitch about every single perceived flaw is exhausting. Calling the show out for what it actually is (as opposed to what a bunch of fans perceive it should be) is not somehow settling for mediocrity. Just the tone of that premise-- to pigeonhole people into 2 camps of fanboy vs apologist -- is irritating.

 

Your post is sorta weird and contradictory. First, you admit the show has major flaws. Then you saw we should love it for what it is, not what we want it to be. 

I'm not expecting KING LEAR IN ZOMBIELAND. What I am expecting is good writing and plotting, which translates to good, consistent characterization (and well-done arcs for characters) as well as plotting which has a discernible purpose and moves the story forward. TWD is sadly lacking in these things; its good parts far outshine the sum, which is not good storytelling. If it had deeply compelling characters, we'd be more forgiving of the meandering, payoff-less plotting. If the events of the show unfurled with more energy and apparent smarts and planning, we could likely overlook bad and/or inconsistent characterization. But the show's consistently letting us down in both areas. 

Kirkman and Co. may have great intentions, but it seems very obvious they don't know what they're doing - or that they're so deaf and blind to criticism that they're determined to continue making the same mistakes over and over again.

Episode 7 had a lot of problems, but I was willing to forgive most of them because the show finally fucking gave us some decent dialogue, confrontations, and movement. But taken as part of the whole - both this specific season and the entire show broadcast so far - the problems are much noisier than the parts that work. My problems with the show don't stem from it not being the SHAWSHANK of zombie stories or what I think it "should" be. They stem from some very basic problems with the show's writing and overall direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

Your post is sorta weird and contradictory. First, you admit the show has major flaws. Then you saw we should love it for what it is, not what we want it to be. 

 

I'm not expecting KING LEAR IN ZOMBIELAND. What I am expecting is good writing and plotting, which translates to good, consistent characterization (and well-done arcs for characters) as well as plotting which has a discernible purpose and moves the story forward. TWD is sadly lacking in these things; its good parts far outshine the sum, which is not good storytelling. If it had deeply compelling characters, we'd be more forgiving of the meandering, payoff-less plotting. If the events of the show unfurled with more energy and apparent smarts and planning, we could likely overlook bad and/or inconsistent characterization. But the show's consistently letting us down in both areas. 

 

Kirkman and Co. may have great intentions, but it seems very obvious they don't know what they're doing - or that they're so deaf and blind to criticism that they're determined to continue making the same mistakes over and over again.

 

Episode 7 had a lot of problems, but I was willing to forgive most of them because the show finally fucking gave us some decent dialogue, confrontations, and movement. But taken as part of the whole - both this specific season and the entire show broadcast so far - the problems are much noisier than the parts that work. My problems with the show don't stem from it not being the SHAWSHANK of zombie stories or what I think it "should" be. They stem from some very basic problems with the show's writing and overall direction.

 

I'm not saying you should love it. Your words. I am saying that, at some point, if you're going to continue watching, maybe it would help to understand why you're compelled to watch and accept those things as potentially positive or that,*shudder* you "accept mediocrity." Wouldn't that make for a more rewarding viewing experience and smarter discussion? I'll admit part of my ranting in this thread is that I'm tired of the internet's general push towards unwarranted hyperbole. It is partly why I don't post in the forums as much anymore -- I see people falling into the same ol' discussion traps.

"If it had deeply compelling characters, we'd be more forgiving of the meandering, payoff-less plotting." Meandering? Yeah, I can accept that even if I generally liked where the story went. Payoff-less? That is objectively untrue. The whole point of all that wasted time and simmering conflict on Hershell's farm led to (what I believe to be) a gut-punch of an ending. You might not like the payoff but there was a definite purpose in how this half-season was structured. And that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about in my previous post. Everyone agrees the writing is flawed and then you use that accepted truth to make a claim that are not supported by the show. If you're going to complain about the show (and there are plenty of reasons to) then maybe it might help to stick to what is actually bad.

This show is great entertainment. Even haters can't stop watching and the few that decided to let go, still can't pull themselves away from the grip of TWD and so they hang around in forums, discussing aspects of a show they already stopped watching.

TWD FTW!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitches Leave 

This show is great entertainment.

Entertainment doesn't equal good. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitches Leave 

This show is great entertainment. Even haters can't stop watching and the few that decided to let go, still can't pull themselves away from the grip of TWD and so they hang around in forums, discussing aspects of a show they already stopped watching.

 

TWD FTW!

There's some truth to this. I've told myself at least three times this season I was done watching. Obviously, I'm waaaaay too good at lying to myself.

I'll settle with great entertainment now that Breaking Bad is on hold.

Edit: in response to ambler

I'm not afraid to admit that I like bitching about it. It's probably more fun than the actual watching the show part. It's more than enough to keep me watching, but then, my repeated refrain is 'Don't ask me! I still watch Dexter!'

On the other hand, I legitimately liked the last episode. But it's also too fun to mock the writing for Dale.

I don't hate the show, though I've become increasingly disappointed and frustrated with it this season. I actually loved and was a defender of most of the first season. The finale was a letdown that made me reevaluate some of what came before and ultimately soured me on the whole show slightly. Going into the second season I had tampered expectations but was hoping for improvement. I've kept watching because it still flirts with being really good, or at the very least still has the potential, but I'm not sure how motivated I'll be to keep watching when it comes back. But if I decide I'm totally over it I am not going to keep watching just for the sake of bitching, nor would I keep popping into the thread if I gave the show up. I admit it's unfair and reductive to paint fans of the show as apologists or fanboys, but that goes both ways. You can't dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as a nitpicky hater or contrarian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

Payoff-less? That is objectively untrue. The whole point of all that wasted time and simmering conflict on Hershell's farm led to (what I believe to be) a gut-punch of an ending. You might not like the payoff but there was a definite purpose in how this half-season was structured. And that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about in my previous post. Everyone agrees the writing is flawed and then you use that accepted truth to make a claim that are not supported by the show. If you're going to complain about the show (and there are plenty of reasons to) then maybe it might help to stick to what is actually bad.

That's one pay-off. And most peple have praised that. When the pay-off for two years' worth of tension over the Shane-Lori thing is Rick sighing and basically saying "okay"? THAT'S a lack of payoff. Or Merle. Or Lennie James' character.

If people think the farm stay felt too long maybe they should just quit now. The characters in this show will always end up being cooped up in some location for an extended period of time. It is too expensive to have a show with new locations everyday, and it was basically also what they did in the comic.

If I hadn't read the comic I'm not sure I would still be watching the show I must admit. But I'm so curious to see if the show will dare to go to some of the levels of insanity that the comic does (later on), that I'm eagerly awaiting its return every sunday.

Staying in one location isn't the problem. Staying in one location and nothing of note happening for four episodes, that's the problem. It took seven episodes for the Sophia payoff. That could've been done in three. They're wheelspinning. That might be due to the budget cuts, but still.

I didn't mind the Sophia thing lasting all 7 episodes and it did lead to a pretty satisfactory ending. It's not like every episode focused on the search for her, sure they mentioned her, but apart from the Darryl-centric episode, it wasn't about the actual searching for her.

No, it was about pretty much nothing of consequence. They're taking hours to tell stories that could be told in minutes. The character development is so minor it hurts. Seven episodes into the new series, and what's changed about the group? Sophia's dead. That's it.

I think Dan's phrase "flirts with being really good" neatly sums up my thoughts on the show. I don't think it's "great entertainment," but it has the potential to be great entertainment, which makes it so uniquely frustrating.

I'd say this is kind of a major thing. I haven't read the comic books, so not knowing where this leads allows me to focus on the terrible execution of some parts.

But should knowledge of the source material be necessary to enjoy the show?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

No, it was about pretty much nothing of consequence. They're taking hours to tell stories that could be told in minutes. The character development is so minor it hurts. Seven episodes into the new series, and what's changed about the group? Sophia's dead. That's it.

This.  Oh, and Glenn got laid.

I keep saying that this season is written like a high school student writing a paper that his teacher says has to be ten pages but he only has five pages of material. So the student then repeats what he has over and over again, worded a little different, until it gets to the page length required. It doesn't make the paper better, just longer. You can read my full post of grumbling here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

No, it was about pretty much nothing of consequence. They're taking hours to tell stories that could be told in minutes. The character development is so minor it hurts. Seven episodes into the new series, and what's changed about the group? Sophia's dead. That's it.

That's not entirely accurate. Shawn's character took some interesting turns, Andrea's a bit stronger (and more insufferable), and Carl now knows to stay away from deer. Daryl's now a mystical forest paladin, but I'm not quite sure why that happened, so let's call it a wash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor 

That's not entirely accurate. Shawn's character took some interesting turns, Andrea's a bit stronger (and more insufferable), and Carl now knows to stay away from deer. Daryl's now a mystical forest paladin, but I'm not quite sure why that happened, so let's call it a wash.

Yeah, what the fuck was the point of the Merle hallucination?...Daryl comes back like a sociopathic wilderbeast and then...nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

Yeah, what the fuck was the point of the Merle hallucination?

To give Rooker more screen time.  I'd argue it was one of the best decisions of the season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

That's one pay-off. And most peple have praised that. When the pay-off for two years' worth of tension over the Shane-Lori thing is Rick sighing and basically saying "okay"? THAT'S a lack of payoff. Or Merle. Or Lennie James' character.

 

Look, I'm assuming that those things (besides Lori's confession to Rick) are going to pay off. Especially since Kirkman basically excoriated Lindelof for the lack of payoff on LOST. If he doesn't deliver, it would be sloppy and really hypocritical. Wrt Rick's reaction to Lori telling him about Shane. I totally bought his reaction. Rick's a boy scout. For reasons I sorta can't fathom, he loves the shit out of her. In THAT world, her thinking he's dead and rushing to Shane is not the biggest of deals. I can believe that a zombie apocalypse have a way of dialing down the emotions on something like that, but that's just me.

And while some might think that they could've condensed the farm storyline down to 3 episodes, you might have a point, but I liked how the drawn out tension made the ending hit harder. And frankly, no one knows if condensing the plot would've helped. It might've made some of the eventual reactions leading to the situation ring hollow. Is T-Dog still  useless? Is Andrea frustrating because she lacks any real definition as a character? Sure. But I am reluctant to come in here and start telling everyone that the show would be sooo much better if it did X, Y & Z.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor 

That's not entirely accurate. Shawn's character took some interesting turns, Andrea's a bit stronger (and more insufferable), and Carl now knows to stay away from deer. Daryl's now a mystical forest paladin, but I'm not quite sure why that happened, so let's call it a wash.

Daryl's no paladin. He's a ranger.....you know, woodsy fighter type....not holy fighter type. Please keep your D and D classes straight.....
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

No, it was about pretty much nothing of consequence. They're taking hours to tell stories that could be told in minutes. The character development is so minor it hurts. Seven episodes into the new series, and what's changed about the group? Sophia's dead. That's it.

Again, not sure if this is hyperbole but I disagree. Darryl and Glenn are forming relationships and asserting themselves openly. Shane is in full-on Sith mode and barely keeping it together. Andrea is moving away from victim to cold sharpshooter. Dale, well, Dale's just Dale. Rick is being stretched further apart now that his plan to stay on the farm has blown up in his face. And Hershell has gone from benevolent doctor, to wary host, to flat-out broken. Again, this is not the most briskly paced or smoothly written show, but to say nothing has happened is misleading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

 Wrt Rick's reaction to Lori telling him about Shane. I totally bought his reaction. Rick's a boy scout. For reasons I sorta can't fathom, he loves the shit out of her. In THAT world, her thinking he's dead and rushing to Shane is not the biggest of deals. I can believe that a zombie apocalypse have a way of dialing down the emotions on something like that, but that's just me.

 

Yeah, I buy it too. My best friend steps in at the end of the world, when everyone thinks I'm dead, and does right by my wife and son? Hell, even if I'm not "okay" with it, I MAKE myself "okay" with it. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chavez 

Yeah, I buy it too. My best friend steps in at the end of the world, when everyone thinks I'm dead, and does right by my wife and son? Hell, even if I'm not "okay" with it, I MAKE myself "okay" with it. 

 

 

Plus, what are his other options?

Actually, other than trying to steal the farmer's daughter, in The Walking Dead's world, I'd be celibate. Crazy eyes or Idiot Gun Fetishist? Pass.

But while I still don't care for a few of the characters, they at least feel like actual characters this season. I could give a decent description of each without resorting to stereotypes.

Except T-Dog (T-Dawg? T-DDog for a Double Dose of Dullness?). Poor T-Dog. I expect him to borrow one of Otis' red shirts next episode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

Plus, what are his other options?

 

He COULD be dick-ish about it. 

But as I said before, it's probably one of those things where while he said "I know" - he may have DEFINITELY known, or he may have noticed Shane and Laurie were both off, and when she said it, it just clicked - "ah, I get it now." 

As it is, you're right - there aren't really any options, and I think that any reasonable person would probably swallow their pride given the circumstances they find themselves in. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

 

 Wrt Rick's reaction to Lori telling him about Shane. I totally bought his reaction. Rick's a boy scout. For reasons I sorta can't fathom, he loves the shit out of her. In THAT world, her thinking he's dead and rushing to Shane is not the biggest of deals.

 

 

If the show had good writing, we'd find out later he's not okay with it and was lying.  But somehow I doubt that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

If the show had good writing, we'd find out later he's not okay with it and was lying.  But somehow I doubt that.

 

Yeah, I don't think the issue is completely settled (its not like everything between Rick and Shane is hunky-dory), but even if he was quietly angry about the situation why would Rick blow up at Lori when specifically he asked for her to come clean about all secrets? Is that the Rick we've come to know? Could be he's that big of a boy scout or not. Not sure if I'm getting your point here, but I don't think it really reflects badly on the writers that the scene played out like it did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

 

And while some might think that they could've condensed the farm storyline down to 3 episodes, you might have a point, but I liked how the drawn out tension made the ending hit harder.

 

I guess this is where we differ. Drawing it out for 7 episodes completely removed any tension or dramatic impact for me, and it's not like Sophia was a well-developed, beloved character to begin with, so by the time the ending finally came it was not at all a gut punch. My reaction was "heh, cool, they went dark" but there wasn't a trace of "holy shit" to it. The little girl was little more than a distant, abstract concept in my mind by about episode 3.

The whole barn zombies showdown was a let down as well, but that could very well be a budgetary issue. You'd have expected that to turn into a total meltdown emergency situation and a big setpiece for the mid-season finale but it was just 20 seconds of bad CGI gunshot wounds while the characters stood in place mowing down all the zombies, without being in any real danger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

 

 

Yeah, I don't think the issue is completely settled (its not like everything between Rick and Shane is hunky-dory), but even if he was quietly angry about the situation why would Rick blow up at Lori when specifically he asked for her to come clean about all secrets? Is that the Rick we've come to know? Could be he's that big of a boy scout or not. Not sure if I'm getting your point here, but I don't think it really reflects badly on the writers that the scene played out like it did.

I dont have a problem with the way the scene played.  I'm saying if Ricky truly is okay with his wife banging his best friend not long after he was presumed dead, he's more of a boring character than I thought.  Who is this guy, Saint fucking Nick?  Those characters are boring (Superman).  I'd be pissed, even if I knew it was irrational...and in movies or TV if there is angry it needs to be shown somehow.  That's why I'm hoping (not expecting) something down the line with this.
 

He's Dudley-Do-Rick.

The moment when Glen looks to Maggie and Dale and they're both shaking their head either 'yes' or 'no' is downright laughable. I mean, what the fuck am I watching here? Is this a joke? 

On the other hand, I enjoyed the episode and found it totally satisfying.

"Head or gut, Shane?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Venture 

"Head or gut, Shane?"

Good one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

Yeah, what the fuck was the point of the Merle hallucination?.

Weren't people bitching that Daryl didn't appear to acknowledge the fact that the group and Rick were responsible for Merle locked up on a roof? This seemed to rectify it and it seems that Daryl will now be on Team Shane. Anyone notice him gleefully grabbing a gun from him as they went to shoot up the barn? They could've had him do this anyways without the other stuff and no one would've blinked, but now we have more little layers to it.

BIG spoiler that comic-fans will probably appreciate:

How about we not discuss that in here or talk around it? No way that it can not be alluded to without some people figuring it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus 

With the level of negativity in this thread you'd think we were all watching Heroes or something. :)

I don't think Heroes received the exacting attention to detail people are giving this show just to find yet one more thing to criticize. But, then again, I stopped watching and complaining after that terrible second season because I had better things to do with my time... 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navidson 

This seemed to rectify it and it seems that Daryl will now be on Team Shane.

Daryl shares Shane's philosophy towards walkers, but that's about it. No way are those two buddying up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

Daryl shares Shane's philosophy towards walkers, but that's about it. No way are those two buddying up.

Agreed. I don't see Daryl and Shane being besties any time soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navidson 

Anyone notice him gleefully grabbing a gun from him as they went to shoot up the barn?

He would've done that without the Merle hallucination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

The "walkers" name feels very Stephen King. I kind of like it as a tip-off that this thing is happening in its own pop-culture free universe.

It's not from King. The term  "walkers" was first used to describe zomibes in Romero's LAND OF THE DEAD (2005)..

I know it's not from King, it's just the kind of term King conjures up for his novels.

Dale~ What a busy-body, getting into everyone else's business! I think they should just tie him to a tree and let everyone walk by and smack the shit out of him!

And don't even get me started on Glenn..Mr. sieve-for-brains. If there's anything you want everybody to know, just tell Glenn and tell him to keep it to himself. Soon  the whole county will know about it in no time!

And when is something bad and final gonna happen to Carol? Her husband and daughter are gone and she's such a lame human who is not suddenly gonna go all Rambo like Andrea..she's walker-chow just waiting to happen. If this was Star Trek she'd be wearing a red jersey..

 Know what I'd like to see added? Talking walkers. Like in Return of the Living Dead. They don't need to recite shakespeare, just mumble a few words.

Bring on the next location to hold-up in...some place a lot less safe than the farm.

saw this interview....

Sam Witwer on 'Being Human,' a vampire and zombie?

few interesting ideas on what may have been in Darabont's Walking Dead

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

saw this interview....

 

Sam Witwer on 'Being Human,' a vampire and zombie?

 

few interesting ideas on what may have been in Darabont's Walking Dead

 

 

Yeah, I saw this last night on SpoilerTV and it got my blood boiling all over again about the whole situation. I really hope Frank comes out with the full story of what happened someday. It sounds like AMC were just cheap pricks and used Frank to get another hit show at bargain bin prices.  As Sam mentions here, most of the actors signed on for circus peanuts simply because they LOVE Frank and wanted to work with him to make something special.  Now Frank's gone and they're all stuck in their contracts for low pay and under miserable shooting conditions.  I'm seriously disappointed in AMC.

On the same token though, they bring us Mad Men and Breaking Bad, two of the best shows to come down the pike in recent years.  I've heard BB has had its' budget totally fucked with too, and it leaves me scratching my head.  If you have these great shows, wouldn't you want to give them MORE money so they can be even BETTER, which would ultimately raise AMC's stock and ad revenue and make them the player they so desperately want too be.

I feel for Frank, man.. I really do.  He's one of us, as Sam says.  AMC should be offering him millions of dollars, high class whores and anything else he could possibly want in order to keep him happy. Yet he keeps getting treated like shit by Hollywood. Guess it doesn't pay to be brilliant in this business, too many people feel threatened by it.  Having a guy like that putting out great material that makes others look like the mediocre-to-terrible shit that they really are.  Gotta keep the status quo, gotta appeal too the lowest common denominator! We can't have audiences demanding QUALITY out of their entertainment.. that would put at least half of these clowns out of jobs.

Yeah, I'm still bitter... sorry for the rant! :)

Wasn't the delay in the contracts for Mad Men because AMC wanted to also fuck with the budget?  Why must a studio fuck with an amazing product?  Is it the mentality that this show is making us so much money, we can cut corners, make it cheaper and make even MORE money?

It seems like AMC is only concerned with short-term profitability.

I know that one of the business models under consideration by most of the networks/producers of TV shows is syndication.

If you can reach the magical 100 episode/3 or 4 seasons, there is the possibility of a whole new revenue stream.( '30 Rock' and 'Always Sunny' are recent examples)

While it's true these aren't "easy to sell" half hour comedies, I would imagine that there would have to be a market out there for WD, MM or BB....even in edited forms.

Hell, aren't The Sopranos in some sort of syndication?

Frank emailed a guy on AICN to give more info on the story. Top left story on the homepage. Not going to link because I got shouted at the last time I linked a competitor.

Fuck that would have been a real season opener.