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The thing is that for as many people involved in this that actually have a reason to protest/riot there are a lot more that are just latching on and doing it because they can.
Thats what winds me up.
It started as one (peaceful) thing but it isn't like that anymore. Yes you can argue about mob mentality, the Durkheimian idea of a societal safety valve, the idea of dissafected youth rising up but this isn't that anymore (IMO).
Think this woman says it best (skip the entirely innapropriate ad before it)
And just to be British and put a dark humour slant on it, where the fuck are these guys when you need them???
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
says it all really
"It's good fun, hope it carries on, it's the Government's fault, conservatives, or whoever, I dunno..."
fucks sake.
I remember being chased down the street by a gang of 12 year olds when I lived in E&C (for the crime of coming out of the Tube at the wrong time)which was scary enough, I'd fucking hate to be there now.
Ah Borris, how i wish this was true....
http://geekability.tumblr.com/post/8700851155/a-man-named-boris
I remember when Devin was a regular contributor at least two long threads trying to justify downloading movies/music. Dozens, maybe hundreds, of posts. None ever convinced me that the phenomenon is anything more than a majority of people preferring to steal something rather than pay for it when there are (for practical purposes) no consequences.
When society no longer condemns stealing, and owners are no longer willing or able to defend their property (be it of the P.R. nightmare and legal technicalities of a Metallica-like lawsuit or the lack of a Second Amendment giving a store owner to right to shotgun blast a looter), theft becomes common. I see no more grand political statement in looting than in ripping the new Ke$ha single. To quote John Major (may be off slightly, it's been a while), "Society needs to do less understanding, and more condemning."
You missed my point. I don't think the people rioting are doing so as some sort of political statement. Rather, I think the rioting is indicative of a political context in which their actions have meaning. very different things.
On a related note, the video below has been making the rounds on the internet and to some degree remind me of the discussion going on here. This quite intelligent man starts speaking about the political context that surrounds these harrowing events and the reporter suggests that the man condones the violence (he doesn't) and then personally attacks his character. She has no understanding of his perspective at all. And unfortunately, many of us will never understand what the other is saying because we have fundamentally different experiences and perspectives.
I just don't see how people can think about an individuals' actions (looting a store or burning a building) independently of the socio-political context. I feel for the innocent people who are being victimized in the riots. But I also feel for the people who deem rioting as a means to an end. There's a fundamental disconnect between the rioters and the community that is being unfairly dismissed by merely stating that people are rioting just to riot. There hasn't been a riot of this scale for decades. There is something about this historical time and place that is affecting people and compelling them to do horrific acts. Ignoring that fact does a great disservice to everyone involved.
The problem is that he's putting overt political motivation behind these riots, whilst they're simply reactions to socio-political pressures. None of the rioters are out to change anything, they're simply co-ordinating to do damage and snatch as much stuff as they can. There's no central leadership, no ethics, no ethos, no driving force beyond simple want. I get that there are political factors which caused this, but I don't think the actions themselves are politically motivated.
Just watched that video - fuck me it's Darcus Howe - didn't recognise him without his beard.
And yeah you have to look at why this has happened but realistically what can you do? I think it boils down to the fact that there are just too many people in too small a space. Humanity from it's ancestry has lived in smaller groups and I just don't think we are psychologically equipped to live in our millions. Add to that a culture of rampant consumerism and promoting the ideal of looking good in the latest gear doesn't help, especially if you can't even afford a pint and a packet of fags.
There will be lectures on this in years to come but I can guarantee you no-one is going to learn anything from this.
I've just heard it's now kicking off in Canal Street in Manchester (Gay district of town) and this, now, is when it gets really scary, when it becomes about lashing out at minorities.
I'm lucky in that all my family and friends are OK (although I worry about my mates who live with their young daughter in a ground floor flat in Hammersmith) but this has the potential to become really nasty. If they don't get a lid on it there will be more deaths.
Yeah it seems like they pulled Police from other regions just as the stuff in London was dying down and the stuff around the country was kicking off. I'm genuinely shocked Bradford hasn't got itself embroiled in this, my shitstain of a city usually can't help itself when it comes to stuff like this.
Darcus is turning into Flavor Flav. Good on him for going off on that stupid newsreader though. Should have called her a cocoa shunter
Darcus is turning into Flavor Flav. Good on him for going off on that stupid newsreader though. Should have called her a cocoa shunter
"what's a cocoa shunter?"
Whether Darcus is right or wrong, I think we can agree she should have more respect for someone who "worked" on Brass Eye.
I've been working at Ealing Studios this week and I got caught up in this shit-storm. Its an absolute nightmare.
I've listened to all these idiots on the news, offering their opinions. They're all wrong. Darcus is right, but this is NOT what he's talking about. It started as that, it started as angry young people, fed up with the Police, but from the ground level, it mutated quickly. Greed had taken over, from what I can see on both sides.
The crux of all these problems, beyond societal-economic ones, is that people, on either end are suffering a frightening disconnect from reality. Everyone seems to be seeing the world through their phone cameras, seeing things in their minds eye as nothing real or tangible. Reality only exists within themselves and a small group, anything outside of that is not real. There's no repercussions. whether its middle class people filming it for personal gain (I've been seeing lots of HD well shot videos popping up on youtube and vimeo, editing and with a soundtrack & company tag) or the looters and thugs. Its a generation of sociopaths.
It's time to send in the cavalry
http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html
I'm sorry. People don't riot for three days just because they are stupid or its the cool thing to do. People are taking out their anger, frustration, boredom, what have you, on the community. Breaking, stealing, and burning stuff is an outlet for something. We just don't know what yet.
I'm gonna keep beating a dead horse: "Nothing 'mindless' about rioters"
Civil disturbances never have a single, simple meaning. When the Bastille was being stormed the thieves of Paris doubtless took advantage of the mayhem to rob houses and waylay unlucky revolutionaries. Sometimes the thieves were revolutionaries. Sometimes the revolutionaries were thieves. And it is reckless to start making confident claims about events that are spread across the country and that have many different elements. In Britain over the past few days there have been clashes between the police and young people. Crowds have set buildings, cars and buses on fire. Shops have been looted and passersby have been attacked. Only a fool would announce what it all means.
We can dispense with some mistakes, though. It is wrong to say that the riots are apolitical. The trouble began on Saturday night when protesters gathered at Tottenham police station to demand that the police explain the circumstances in which a local man, Mark Duggan, had been shot dead by the police. The death of a Londoner, another black Londoner, at the hands of the police has a gruesome significance. The police are employed to keep the peace and the police shot someone dead. This is a deeply political matter. Besides, it is conventional to say how much policing in London has changed since the Brixton riots of the early eighties - but not many people mouthing the conventional wisdom have much firsthand experience of being young and poor in Britain's inner cities.
More broadly, any breakdown of civil order is inescapably political. Quite large numbers of mostly young people have decided that, on balance, they want to take to the streets and attack the forces of law and order, damage property or steal goods. Their motives may differ - they are bound to differ. But their actions can only be understood adequately in political terms. While the recklessness of adrenaline has something to do with what is happening, the willingness to act is something to be explained. We should perhaps ask them what they were thinking before reaching for phrases like "mindless violence". We might actually learn something.
<more in link>
To begin with. But its not about that anymore.
Remove everything good about your life, a dead future, a government that hates you, no chance of a decent education or job, gang culture - Then add on top of that, a total disregard for the worth of products - but yet, being driven into a frenzy to own them, thanks to constant advertising. Entitlement, hopelessness, consumerism, disregard for human life, disregard for worth of things, a detachment from reality, a social disconnect from most people and the government, lack of respect for authority, lawlessness, greed, stupidity. All these things, crashing together, because there is no control and no consequences. That is whats happening right now. Its deep in the grain of an entire generation, built up and blown up.
These are kids, angry, but don't know WHY they're angry and they want things, some to sell, to make some money. That's not an excuse, and they are stupid, but they're stupid for a reason. They're stupid because they don't have a good education, because they come from very, very poor areas and the government doesn't support them, or their areas. They feel like an abandoned part of society. They're lashing out and taking things they want, because the opportunity has come - where they can, briefly, get away with it. You're then getting VERY few, very, very few, who are starting the fires - the most stupid ones. The rest are just stealing things, they would probably never be able to own. It makes perfect sense.
To begin with there was some ideology, but it fell away pretty fast. Its not just in London now too, its in Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol and others. These are places with the worst outlook. But these kids are just going mad, tearing the world apart and they can't explain why. They're attacking their own towns. Its stupid, stupid behavior.
Of course, with all things, its not that simple. Its never that simple. They're mindless yobs, but you have to understand, what has turned them into those mindless yobs. Society has made these kids like this. This whole situation is a Frankenstein's monster, lashing out at the country that made them.
I grew up in these places. I felt exactly the same way, but thanks to certain luck and advantages, I got away from it.
Um, Diva you're quite wrong about this.
These kids are attacking cheap supermarkets, and locally owned liquor stores, mugging local people from their local communities. People need to stop trying to ascribe political motives when there are none. Why aren't these kids attacking bankers and politicians?
Its opportunistic thuggery, and nothing else. These kids know the police is stretched too thin, and that they are too weak to stop them, so why not loot?
In fact, the Anarchists are squarely against the looting.
Yes Mark Duggan was killed, and there was a protest against this. But the riots that have followed this, have NOTHING to do with his death, they are just about STEALING.
This confirmed by confiscated blackberrys, which are full of messages of kids telling each other to meet up to STEAL GOODS. These messages have nothing about social justice, or revolution, because its NOT POLITICAL.
I'm sick and tired of people trying to justify and rationalise the acts of a group of thugs. Now, of course, if the UK had spent more time and money on the youths instead of wasting billions on American Wars, and bailing out fradulent bankers, the probability of this happening would be less. But lets stop pretending that these criminal acts are somehow grand political statements, they're not.
And I know you mean well Diva, but you're not here.
I had to run between burning cars and molotov cocktails being thrown at me, avoiding roads, blocked by gangs on bikes with knives. I had to hide in a pub, which was subsequently, burnt down.
It is no longer about Mark Duggan, its very vaguely about social injustice. These kids don't know why they're doing it. They couldn't explain it and it IS a minority of people, in each town. And an even smaller minority burning stuff up. Some of the people arrested turned out to be graphic designers, people from well off backgrounds, taking advantage of the situation to let out some steam. Its absolutely mental here.
I deplore senseless violence but to associate all that is happening with a criminal element or a casual embracing of violence out of sheer boredom is a huge fallacy. People can only be beaten, downtrodden, disenfranchised or eat shit for so long until they're given an opportunity to say "fuck it..I'm gonna burn it all down" and they embrace that. The problem is that these things once lit start to spiral out of control, with no purpose or guidance, until they become giant, chaotic shitstorms of mayhem that ravage innocent lives. America itself has a long history of rioting and you ever notice that you don't see rich white folk throwing shit through windows and burning down the Macy's? No, because there's no collective anger, no disenfranchisement, no feelings of despair, restlessness or lack of hope. Rioting in America has always been a reflection of anger on the part of the politically or economically maligned and oppressed. And it's always been prone to descending into that same sort of spiral of irrational violence that we're seeing in the U.K.
Basically I'm taking the Chris Rock Stance: I'm not saying that they should have done it but I understand.
The police in the UK are relatively very gentle. The reason the kids riot like this is because the majority of UK cops are not armed. You can see kids pelting cops with bottles and stones, while these same kids are looting and rioting, and the cops literally watch this and do nothing.
Now think if the same thing happened in NYC. Can you imagine what would happen to you if you threw a bottle or a brick at a NY cop? They'd execute you on the spot. At the very least, they'd beat your ass and thrown you in prison.
The cops in the UK are generally quite soft, and unarmed. They're also emasculated by their laws and potential litigation. But I think things are going to change. Although, Brits are still extremely opposed to having heavily armed police, its a Euro thing, apparently. They're still discussing the use of water cannons and plastic bullets. Heh.
A lot of Brits and Americans having heated debates on the guardian about whether or not owning guns is a good thing.
This one has been doing the rounds, jesus, poor kid.
"We'll stay open. If they steal some books they might learn something."
- Manchester Bookstore owner.
Ah, I miss living in old Blighty sometimes.
"We'll stay open. If they steal some books they might learn something."
- Manchester Bookstore owner.
Ah, I miss living in old Blighty sometimes.
Oh that quote is magical.
Sadly here is some before/after roll over pictures:
Stay safe UKChud.
The police in the UK are relatively very gentle. The reason the kids riot like this is because the majority of UK cops are not armed. You can see kids pelting cops with bottles and stones, while these same kids are looting and rioting, and the cops literally watch this and do nothing.
Now think if the same thing happened in NYC. Can you imagine what would happen to you if you threw a bottle or a brick at a NY cop? They'd execute you on the spot. At the very least, they'd beat your ass and thrown you in prison.
The cops in the UK are generally quite soft, and unarmed. They're also emasculated by their laws and potential litigation. But I think things are going to change. Although, Brits are still extremely opposed to having heavily armed police, its a Euro thing, apparently. They're still discussing the use of water cannons and plastic bullets. Heh.
A lot of Brits and Americans having heated debates on the guardian about whether or not owning guns is a good thing.
Cops in the US will execute (black) people on the spot for much less.
Cops in the US will execute (black) people on the spot for much less.
Yea, didn't they just riddle an eight year old black boy with bullets for running around with a water gun? Read it on Huffpo a week or two ago.
The Brit cops are hilariously soft and timid in comparison. Even though American cops kill lots of innocent ppl every year, the plus side is no one fucks with them either. Mostly, anyways.
If you have a brutally capitalistic dog eat dog society, you need a brutally effective police force to keep the inevitable malcontents in check. The UK police force is one for some idyllic Scandinavian country that has incredibly high levels of income distribution and effective social services for all. That's not the UK. The UK is far more like the US, only they have a pussy police force. Of course, the plus side to having such a police force is, not many people are killed. Only one person has died in four days in these riots. While in the LA riots of the 90s, over 50 people were killed in 6 days, which could only be quelled by a heavily armed national guard. Pros and cons.
And it was Thatcher who said there is no such thing as society. It was her government that started this " me first" bullshit. You reap what you sow.
Yea, didn't they just riddle an eight year old black boy with over a dozen bullets for running around with a water gun? Read it on Huffpo a week or two ago.
The Brit cops are hilariously soft and timid in comparison. Even though American cops kill lots of innocent ppl every year, the plus side is no one fucks with them either. Mostly, anyways.
Yeah I must agree. I've dealt with Melbourne cops before and I had a rather intense experience with Londons Met after spending a night in a cell as a much younger man (very long story - the cliff note version: I was mistaken for a dealer in a club), and the London coppers were positively quaint and cuddly compared to their compatriots in blue here in my hometown. They were the first cops I;d come across that weren't raging assholes frankly.
It's a shame that that's all going to end now in some ways.
During the last violence in Oakland, the community outreach centers (sponsored in part by City government & the Police) made a concerted effort to calm people's anger (this was after the Police officer who shot Oscar Grant was released from prison) and were quite successful at reducing what could have been a riot on this scale. In fact, in that instance, it became crystal clear that roving "Anarchists" had come into town to stir up trouble (this was widely reported in the Media prior, during and after the event), which further diffused local tensions.
All of which is to suggest that it's not just that US cops wantonly shoot up people who look like they might cause trouble.
From what I've read, in the UK they have standardized outreach centers which the locals ignore. And there is no word on whether the community leaders made any effort to dispel trouble prior to the protest, or indeed if they even had the profile within the community that would enable them to do so.
Guns are never the answer. Never.
SeanCe and Nabster, we're making the same point:
Originally Posted by Diva
I don't think the people rioting are doing so as some sort of political statement. Rather, I think the rioting is indicative of a political context in which their actions have meaning. very different things.
I just feel happy that we have the moral superiority of Rain Dog and the intellectual might of Diva in this thread.
And thank god we have your emotionally detached, vaguely superior snark to shepherd us through this thread and these dark times Spike.
Thank god for you.
classically maybe, but I think this is something new.
Now think if the same thing happened in NYC. Can you imagine what would happen to you if you threw a bottle or a brick at a NY cop? They'd execute you on the spot. At the very least, they'd beat your ass and thrown you in prison.
That's a little melodramatic. Cops take beat-downs all the time and never open fire. Sometimes no one even goes to jail.
SeanCe and Nabster, we're making the same point:
Right you are, I don't know how I missed that part.
Spike pretty much nails it here.
The problem is that he's putting overt political motivation behind these riots, whilst they're simply reactions to socio-political pressures. None of the rioters are out to change anything, they're simply co-ordinating to do damage and snatch as much stuff as they can. There's no central leadership, no ethics, no ethos, no driving force beyond simple want. I get that there are political factors which caused this, but I don't think the actions themselves are politically motivated.
I've just written up my thoughts on my blog. Which is something I've never done as its just a place for my photography. I doubt any of you care, but I think it sums up what I've been witnessing as of late.
http://mrseance.tumblr.com/post/riots
It also features a Frankenstein reference. Everyone loves Frankenstein.
The scale of the riots has nothing to do with the "toughness" of the police. Once people, in the thousands or tens of thousands decide "Fuck it, let's burn the place down" the police are pretty much screwed. Regardless of being armed or not. Their only option is some sort of containment and waiting it out. Because if anyone wants to play Rambo and bullets start flying you're risking all this turning Bloody Sunday into a pretty severe after school fight in comparison. No elected democratic government can or should order something like that.
Yeah what some people seem to be calling for seems much more suited to Bashar al-Assad than David Cameron.
4 Dead now.
The Croydon shooting, a 60 year old man trying to put out a fire and was roundly beaten by some fuckwits... And the 2 from the hit 'n' run with a 3rd person in a critical condition.
It's also worth noting that it was only last night the Police were told they could "do what they had to" to stop the rioters. With all the enquirers going on about corrupt officers in this country at the moment the Met is pretty much scared into inactivity,
And as someone who came from a really poor working class background I have never bought the idea that you are a product of society. People who join gangs and take up a life of crime are taking the easy route out pure and simple. The hard thing to do is knuckle down and get the hell out of there.
I do however think a lot of the dissatifaction is to do with the massive spending cuts and seemingly uncaring government we currently have. A bunch of ex Eaton boys cutting all the benifits and telling people they will have to tighten their belts while those in power sit pretty, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
I do however think a lot of the dissatifaction is to do with the massive spending cuts and seemingly uncaring government we currently have. A bunch of ex Eaton boys cutting all the benifits and telling people they will have to tighten their belts while those in power sit pretty, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
If anyone bothered remembering history anymore the situation would seem positively proverbial.
I grew up in Bradford, which whilst not the ghetto, was hardly a wellspring of economic prosperity. I work in Recruitment at the moment and one of my chief roles is looking into BME (Black and Minority Ethnicity) recruitment. Bradford has a massive variant of BME Communities, but that's never been properly represented by the public services. What I've found is that Communities, at least in Bradford, are insular and don't want to be a part of the bigger picture. It's one of the real struggles I have as part of a Healthcare Organisation, because we don't offer competitive pay and the benefits we do offer are in terms of security and pension. Trying to convince some disaffected kids to do a really hard job with the only positives being a decent pension and job security is a lot tougher than you'd think, especially when there are links within their own community to support them.
As such in Bradford we've got disparate communities which occasionally flare up into race riots (we've had three major ones in twenty years), but they're riots which are driven at least by an ideology and an intent.
All this shit is just disgusting, and I don't understand why it's really going on. But interviews like this isn't doing the cause of the 'rioters' any favours.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm
It's all so surreal. I feel as disconnected to London, Manchester and the like as I would if this was going on in Darfur or something.
Originally Posted by SeanCE
A society of something for nothing. There's no consequence, that's why you do it.
But this is exactly the sort of society that leftist politics create. Wealth distribution and class warfare not with an eye towards leveling the playing field but with an eye towards increased power in a status quo elite who know better how to live your life than you do. Then they bemoan the fact that people are disenfranchised. Earlier it was quoted that "society needs to do less understanding and more condemning", absolutely. If people just stopped putting up with thugs because, "if we only understand what they are thinking" then maybe this shit wouldn't escalate.
This is not acting out on power inequality, this is opportunism for opportunism's sake.
This isn't about right or left, because this is deeper. I suggest you read my blog post I posted above to get a real idea of these kids.
People are a product of individual personality traits and environmental factors. Holding environmental factors constant, some people will strive to succeed, some will not care, most will flounder at mediocrity. On the flip side, holding personality traits constant, some environmental contexts are supportive and nurturing, others are downright oppressive, and most are somewhere in between. To say that just because one grew up in poverty and made it out ok, doesn't mean that everyone will. There are a whole host of things that interact to shape who people are and their experiences. There will always be examples of people who came from meager beginnings who have gone on to do great things. But when you look at the numbers on a broader, societal level - there are larges groups of people who do not/cannot change their position in society and this number is greater than what one would expect based on mere personality. Saying people who fail just didn't work hard enough suggests this world is a meritocracy, when it is anything but.
Spike, there is a ton of social justice research that shows you cannot just put an organization in a community and expect it to work without putting in the time and effort to ensure that it is something the community had a part in shaping, community leaders endorse, and with social support systems are in place. It's true, they don't want to be part of the "bigger picture" because the bigger picture has treated them like second class citizens. Most minority communities do not trust mainstream communities and will not want to participate in programs that they think will not have their best interests at heart. I'm really interested in what kinds of "links" in the community there are. What kinds of support is there to engage people in something that seems so foreign to their current daily experience?
But this is exactly the sort of society that leftist politics create. Wealth distribution and class warfare not with an eye towards leveling the playing field but with an eye towards increased power in a status quo elite who know better how to live your life than you do. Then they bemoan the fact that people are disenfranchised. Earlier it was quoted that "society needs to do less understanding and more condemning", absolutely. If people just stopped putting up with thugs because, "if we only understand what they are thinking" then maybe this shit wouldn't escalate.
This is not acting out on power inequality, this is opportunism for opportunism's sake.
It doesn't make sense to worry about what "they are thinking" because that implies that there are individual motives driving this. When riots happen on this large a scale, its more important to understand what is happening on a group (societal) level.
All this shit is just disgusting, and I don't understand why it's really going on. But interviews like this isn't doing the cause of the 'rioters' any favours.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm
It's all so surreal. I feel as disconnected to London, Manchester and the like as I would if this was going on in Darfur or something.
There is no "cause" at this point assuming there was one to begin with. It's unfocused rage combined with a visceral lust for violence that is normally muted on scales we're witnessing in England by societal pressures.
It’s a little off-topic Diva, but I think one of the things that you might not understand is that the history of Black and Indian immigrants doesn’t have a clear analogy to the history of African-Americans. Most immigrants from Black communities came here in the 1950s and were from former colonies.
They were essentially welcomed into the country with open arms because Britain had a crippling labour shortage, as such tensions between Black and White communities spring from a different place than tensions between White Americans and African Americans (in Britain the tension has always been most fuelled by economic concerns, with racism being piled on top of a fear of losing your job to a more abled foreigner). In terms of community building it’s probably wiser to equate English Blacks and Asian with Russian Immigrants to America, who created Russianised communities where they landed in New York.
I think Spike is right on that. I don't know many Americans who understand at all what is going on here. Its a very messy situation, but this isn't about race anymore. This is just about taking shit, because they can get away with it.
I think its vital you all listen to this on ground interview with the Kids in Manchester. Its insane. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm
So it's not about race. It's about class.
It's about those good for nothing blacks. It's about those lazy poors. It's about those thieving Albanians. It's about those medieval Muslims. It's about those bastard anarchists. It's about those traitorous Irish. It's about those ungrateful plebes. Its about those usurping Greens and Blues. Its about those heretic protestants. It's about those (expletive) others.
Or it's about the fucking white man. It's about those thieving rich. It's about those racist Greeks. It's about those corrupt Westerners. It's about the evil establishment. It's about the English oppressors. It's about those fat patricians. It's about that insane Emperor. It's about those corrupt Catholics.
Or its about finally getting away with it, the way you think everyone else is.
