Mad Men Season 5

Sat next to Kiernan Shipka (Sally Draper) at a Johnny Rockets at the Grove in West Hollywood over the weekend, very nice girl. I can't wait for this season to start..damn

"The Suitcase" was easily the best episode of television I saw last year, and maybe the peak performances on the series for both Hamm and Moss. Any word on how far in the future S5 is set after S4? I imagine Don and his new bride will still be in their newlywed phase.

Yeah, when I saw "The Suitcase" last year I instantly became aware that I was watching one of the best if not THE best episode of the series thus far.  It was fantastic.

Can't wait till next March.

Is that the one where Don freaks out when he sees those guys in the hallway and confesses everything to his girlfriend (at the time)?  Great episode.

So what's everyone's take on the whole surprise wedding thing at the end of last season?  I see it as Don frantically running from the possibility of having a real, honest relationship (with a woman who actually knows who he is), and trying to recreate the situation he had with Betty during the first three seasons (kids, a nice house, and a seemingly ideal young trophy wife who idealizes him and has no knowledge of his sordid past).  The very sort of relationship he was NEVER happy in before, hence all his philandering...

It'll most likely fail.

Thanks to Netflix, you people will have to put up with some of my ramblings in this season's thread.

As someone who just powered through the series as a complete n00b, it's been a genuine pleasure to read (and yes, sometimes skim), through  four seasons of Chewer comments. You guys are awesome.

Well, I think she might stand for a bit more than just a placeholder to make the other women look better.  I don't recall ever thinking "Dang, Joan was just a total bitch to Peggy.  But at least she's not as bad as Betty!"

My wife and I just finished rewatching season 4 as well, thanks to Netflix.  I'm in the minority among the Betty Draper/Francis sympathizers.  Is she a complete wacko?  Yes.  A terrible mother?  Hell yes.  But are we given hints and reasons as to why she behaves the way she does?  I think so, and I think they make perfect sense.  Smarter (and more... interested) people than I have posted on this topic.  There was a really nice article linked in the thread for Season 4, just a few posts from the last, I believe.  I'm too lazy to actually find the link for you.  Sorry.

Anyway, Betty's mom was screwy and cruel.  Don was the poster child for the unfaithful husband.  (and I think Betty knew it far earlier than she ever allowed herself to realize.  I like to think that the hand spasms she experienced in the first season was a physical manifestation of her frustrations, born out of the signs that Don was cheating that she was forcing herself to ignore.)   During most of the events you mentioned that Don was 'there for Betty,' he also had a mistress on the side.

And Betty didn't become more childlike after their divorce.  She's pretty much always behaved like a child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAIRUS 



I shit you not, but I just watched this episode, doing a season marathon (ugh season 5 get here soon). Great episode.

Watching it all back to back, there's a LOT of foreshadowing, and little callbacks. This is my first time watching season 4 again, and while I initially thought it was a slightly weaker season, there is so much more to love in it and a lot more intricacies that can be missed.

I do miss some of the old cast from the 1st 3 seasons, but the main people that matter made it through.

That said, I HATE HATE HATE Betty.

Every character in the show has some sort of flaw, or something not to like about them. All the guys cheat on their wives at some point, and show some selfish sides, some that even get one's hidden brother killed. Then there are their strengths that make them cheer for them, mostly their idealism and charisma. Pete Campbell seemed like a selfish prick till he manned up at the end of season 3. Don, well we love seeing him kicking ass, winning accounts, caring for his loved ones (I think he does love them when he does) and Joan being a progressive woman who stands up for her self.

Betty on the other hand has had no arc except downward and is utterly selfish. She has no redeeming qualities at all. She is the pawn and is a terrible mother.

In the early seasons, she played up the simpleton housewife angle, possibly gaining some sympathy. Don is an excellent provider, but he does cheat on her. So yes, early on, she has some sort forgiveness. Then she starts to stand up to Don about sleeping with the comedian's wife. Okay that's good, makes sense. It's only she goes into a child like state, has temper tantrums and really doesn't do anything about it.

Then she has another baby, and Don seems to really care for her and wanting to be there for her. Instead of moving forward like Peggy, she just returns to Don. Her Dad dies, and she is stressed. Don is there for her. The president dies, she freaks out, and Don is still there for her. When she finds out about Don's past, we think she will be there for him, and she just wants to hurt him really bad, even wanting him dead (she mentions to Henry). She stays out late, is very very hard on Sally, and once again tempers fly. She is the definition of passive aggressive.

Look, I understand she got treated bad by Don, and left him for a valid reason. Thing is, what actual positive things does she do? Peggy seems to a girl who is fighting her way through a male dominated society, as is Joan. Even side characters like the season 1 mall owner daughter seemed progressive. Hell even the season 3 teacher was caring. Betty on the other hand just wants total attention and likes spending Dons money.

Don't get me started on the day when she left her kids with Don and then decided to fuck a random guy in a bar. Don's flings are a little more than flings, they seem to have some sort of relationship and meaning. Yes even the hooker at season 4, a lot like his real mom. Betty goes after Henry because he might be like her father, and is more experienced? Thing is, while there are hints, we don't know for certain.

All I know, she seems to be the scape goat, and just serves as the counter point to make Joan and Betty or any other woman on the show look a lot better.

I've never hated Betty.  I just feel sorry for her.

I have to say that I disagree with you SAIRUS, respectively.  I think your pure hatred for her blinds you from her complexities as a character and what she represents.

Betty has always been treated like a child.  Gene always treated her that way.  He called her his little princess still as a grown adult, married, with two children.  He always patronizing her, telling her he was taking care of her, so she never grew up and learned how to take care of herself as a proper adult(let alone raising three kids).  That's why she married Don.  Because he was going to take care of her. But he treated her like a child also, despite being a completely different man than her father.  And that's what she represents.  The woman who has been crushed into submission by the male hegemony in her life, so she struggles to assert herself, acting out foolishly and childlike.  So who does she go for comfort?  Who can she she look up to? Her mother of course, but she was a cruel, cold-hearted shrew of a woman.  But that doesn't stop Betty from viewing her as a role model though.  She doesn't have anyone else.  No wonder she's a shitty mother.  Then, she leaves Don for Henry, incapable of being out on her own.  At least Henry treats her more as an adult (On a personal note: I've always disliked Henry personally. I only began to really respect him after he told Betty "No ones ever on your side.").

Betty only represents one part of the main "triangle" of early feminist archetypes in the 60's.

You say that Joan is "a progressive woman who stands up for her self" but I'm not sure I agree with that either.  Yes, she does stand up for herself, I'll give you that, and she is capable of being independent, but she is the woman who has gotten where she is because of her looks.  She asserts her power with her body and sexuality because it's the only thing she knows how to use and she uses them very well I might add.  Compare her to Peggy who really represents the strong progressive independent woman who is actually asserting power in her male dominated career with her own merit, yet everyone still thinks she slept with Don to get where she is.

Anyway. I'd love to go through your whole post right now beat by beat and break down those scenes you mentioned because I read them completely different than you.  But I got work early tomorrow.  And the school semester.  I'll do it sometime in the future.

So no. I don't hate Betty.  I feel sorry for her.  Because I have empathy.  Most people really don't have it.  They think they do, but they don't, they confuse it with sympathy.  And empathy is far under appreciated in our culture in the U.S.  Its why we hate the poor and each other.  And its why our politics are so fucked up.  That and a bunch of self-righteous religious evangelical anti-government neoconservative activists.

Heh didn't realize that Season 5 hadn't begun yet. I ripped through seasons 1-4 over the last few months.

RE: Betty. I feel sorry for her, but it's sort of like the old arguments about the causes of crime. Yes, I know many criminals come from broken homes, don't have the opportunities in life etc etc. But that doesn't stop one from loathing individual criminals and their acts.

And that is how I look at Betty. I recognize all the points made by Hank, but it's hard for me to watch Betty in Mad Men. She is literally like a 5 year old girl in a woman's body. She walks around slumping her shoulders, the way she holds a cigarette in her mouth, etc are just disturbing. And when she cheats on Don, or mistreats her children, there is a deliberateness about it. While Don cheats out of weakness, or need to escape, Betty cheats for revenge. I think that is why people hate Betty so much.

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby While Don cheats out of weakness, or need to escape, Betty cheats for revenge. I think that is why people hate Betty so much.

Put that in the dictionary next to "double standard."

I am pulling this from one of the other, older threads, but this is still the best defense of Betty Draper. It completely changed my mind on her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteboy Jones 

Put that in the dictionary next to "double standard."

A-fucking-men.  Don's the kind of guy who can neglect his family, then come home and be the conquering hero.  Don would've been driven crazy if he had to stay locked up in the house with the kids.  He would have just left them, frankly.  Betty fails at a lot of things, she's snobby and petty and ignorant and short tempered.  And worst of all she developed a cruel streak to her daughter.  But she is fundamentally constricted in a way Don is not.  You can see that she wasn't always so awful a mother.  You can see it pretty clearly in season one, actually.

I think Betty is less a character and more of a symbol. Betty is the American housewife of that era, her plight is nearly universal.

In the begining she presents as a woman to be envied, beautiful, well to do, a doting husband, adorable child.  But Betty's reality is that even though she has achieved all that society at the time has told her to achieve, she is powerless and miserable. She has no arc, because she has no where to go. She tries to return to modeling, finds out that was only a manipulation to gain her husband as a client. She becomes an ardent Kennedy supporter (as many suburban housewives did, showing how they were to become a powerful political force when before they were expected to vote as their husbands told them). She has another baby, because that is another way a women could hopefully find some meaning and happiness. She eventually devolves into a vindictive shrew, but really what alternatives did she have?

Betty followed all the rules, she was the prettiest, the most graceful, landed the best man (or so she thought) and ended up miserable. It is commentary of the American dream of that era. When people are rendered powerless and irrelevant, they get mean. When they conform to societal expectations and are rewarded with pain and degradation, they rebel against those expectations. Is Betty a good wife? Hell no, nor is Don a good husband. But I think the point is that neither could be expected to live up to their end of the bargain given the time and power relationships between men and women at that time. The whole system was set up to turn men into philadering dickheads and women into insufferable bitches.

edit: Mr. Tyres, just read that link, thanks for that, remarkably well put.

Sure there's a psychological thing at play here where anyone that stands in the path of the protagonist (Don) getting what he wants is going to naturally be rooted against. But for me personally, I've never viewed Betty negatively because of how she has treated Don. He deserves it. It's everyone else she has dealt with that has shown the character to be unworthy of defense. Betty's treatment of her own children is despicable. Her interaction with the neighbor boy is just plain creepy. Knowing her history and realizing that she is an infantalized adult  doesn't change that. She's a pure antagonist.

It's also important to note the difference between an unlikable character and an uninteresting one. Just because a character is so terrible that you wish her kids would live with their alcoholic, workaholic womanizing father, doesn't mean the character makes you want to fast forward past their scenes. As a supporting character, she continues to add something to the show. I'm just not sure the character or the actress can carry storylines any more.

One thing that has been settled: her other roles have shown that January Jones was a fortuitous bit of casting: they found an actress who could only play one thing, but that one thing was exactly what they needed.

That's for the link!  I couldn't agree more with her sentiments about Betty.

There's no question what Betty has become, which is a miserable, angry, often cruel person.  I don't think anyone feels she's likable at this point. But there was also a gradual decline, and a clear path that led her there.  It's the almost personal feelings of animosity towards her that I don't get.  I bristle when she is hurtful to Sally, but I also bristle when Roger's a racist, or Ken is a homophobe.  It doesn't go beyond that.  If anything, I have more sympathy for Betty because I know that what many women went through back then was a real tragedy.  Can't say the same for the Rogers of the world.  And although she's in an emotional place that is much darker and more relentless than the other characters, (Roger is still capable of charming the audience), I trust the writers will find a way to re-humanize her before it's all said and done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 
 Her interaction with the neighbor boy is just plain creepy. 

See, I always felt the creepiness there was only going one way, and that was straight from the little kid. I don't think I've ever want a child to catch a bullet as much as that serial killer in training. Him making Sally his replacement Betty was some straight up Vertigo shit.

So we have Pete being forgiven for raping the neighbour's au pair. We understand Joan for marrying a man after he raped her. We get Don lying through his teeth and fucking everything with a pulse. But Betty is irredeemable.

Pete tried to be someone he clearly wasn't cut up to be (Don) and in his cluelessness did something horrible. Joan was too fixated in scoring a good husband and escaping spinsterhood so she chose to ignore something that should have made her run the opposite direction. And Don, well books could be written about why Don does as he does. But Betty who for years has been cheated upon, patronized, belittled, spied upon, denied her every feeble attempt at self actualization, well, her we can't understand. Because she gets on our nerves. 

I think there is something to be said for that, though. I'd go as far as saying that for the most part, Betty has had the moral upper-hand over Don and nearly everyone else on the show, but that doesn't change the fact that I find her somewhat annoying to watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Clark 

 

See, I always felt the creepiness there was only going one way, and that was straight from the little kid. I don't think I've ever want a child to catch a bullet as much as that serial killer in training. Him making Sally his replacement Betty was some straight up Vertigo shit.

People's reading of the Glenn stuff always bothered me.

While it may have developed into something petulant and infantile on Betty's part, it started out with her trying to be nice to the boy, being flattered by his crush rather than being dismissive about it.  And then, that scene in the parking lot, when Glenn says he's not allowed to talk to her, for me that is one of the saddest scenes in the series.  Betty feels so utterly alone at that point that she has to try to seek some tiny bit of comfort in the slightly strange neighborhood kid who had a crush on her.  For anyone to see something like that and think Betty is inappropriate or creepy... I just don't get it.

I like imagining the process of casting Glenn. Weiner's sitting at home, mulling it over: "man, I just need to find a really fucking creepy little imp..." *glances at the corner, where his son is, I dunno, de-limbing action figures* "Bingo."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteboy Jones 

Put that in the dictionary next to "double standard."

Well I'm not a Don Draper fan. In fact, I find it hard to find any characters I really like in Mad Men. But I think the difference between Don and Betty is like being in a crowded bar and having a guy bump into and spilling his drink all over you because he's drunk. Versus: a guy throwing a drink in your face because he hates you and wants you dead. When Betty is cruel to someone, she always seems to be very personal about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

There's no question what Betty has become, which is a miserable, angry, often cruel person.  I don't think anyone feels she's likable at this point. But there was also a gradual decline, and a clear path that led her there.  It's the almost personal feelings of animosity towards her that I don't get.  I bristle when she is hurtful to Sally, but I also bristle when Roger's a racist, or Ken is a homophobe.  It doesn't go beyond that.  If anything, I have more sympathy for Betty because I know that what many women went through back then was a real tragedy.  Can't say the same for the Rogers of the world.  And although she's in an emotional place that is much darker and more relentless than the other characters, (Roger is still capable of charming the audience), I trust the writers will find a way to re-humanize her before it's all said and done.

Agree about the gradual decline of Betty. Guys like Roger are adept at acting a part, and only occasionally (EG with the Japanese clients) do we see a crack in the facade. I also think Roger is a shallow character: he acquires things (like a 20 something wife) and then eventually discards them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

So we have Pete being forgiven for raping the neighbour's au pair. We understand Joan for marrying a man after he raped her. We get Don lying through his teeth and fucking everything with a pulse. But Betty is irredeemable.

 

Pete tried to be someone he clearly wasn't cut up to be (Don) and in his cluelessness did something horrible. Joan was too fixated in scoring a good husband and escaping spinsterhood so she chose to ignore something that should have made her run the opposite direction. And Don, well books could be written about why Don does as he does. But Betty who for years has been cheated upon, patronized, belittled, spied upon, denied her every feeble attempt at self actualization, well, her we can't understand. Because she gets on our nerves. 

Why are you assuming that I and (I guess) everyone else on this board thing these things? Except for Betty (as portrayed in the show) getting on my nerves. I'm guilty as charged on that.

I really hope AMC puts together an extended "what's happened since you last saw Mad Men" clip summary online before the season premiere.  I have no clue what the hell is going on, given that the last episode I saw was over a year and a half ago (more or less right?)

As pretty much a non-fan after seeing the first 3 seasons, I was going to give up on this show. Then I blind bought the 4th season from Amazon during the Black Friday sale, and I was actually surprised that I liked it for the most part. I'm still not completely won over by the show, but the 4th season was enough to keep my interest in it. Agree on the creepy scenes between Sally and junior Garland Green.

I wonder if Bert Cooper is just going to show back up at the office like nothing happened?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

Besides that, I wanna see how things go for Papa Pete. I didn't expect him to not weasel his way out of his marraige within two seasons, yet he's probably a lot more decent than Don as far as marriage goes. Shocking.

It's been mentioned here on the boards, and they even talk about it in the Season 3 commentaries: Pete and Trudy are the only real progressives on the show, and they're the only characters that have taken stock of themselves and made a conscious decision to try and be better people (though Pete can still be a prime asshole on occasion. The stuff with his father in law last season, for instance).

I agree about Pete and Trudy: It's like they"re Androids who are trying hard to fit into Human Society, but are able to stop and select what kind of people they really want to be. While all the other characters for the most part just do what they do.

Although I'd say Peggy is also self directed. She wants a career for her own Self Realization, rather than to just be "one of the boys".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

Besides that, I wanna see how things go for Papa Pete. I didn't expect him to not weasel his way out of his marraige within two seasons, yet he's probably a lot more decent than Don as far as marriage goes. Shocking.

When did Don rape a foreign nanny?

He essentially threatened to have her fired and deported if she didn't fuck him.

Pete is an ugly, unsympathetic character. He's an antagonist. He's useful to the story, but at the end of the show, I'd love for him to get hit by a bus. Ideally, the same bus that hit Betty Draper in the season 5 premiere!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

He essentially threatened to have her fired and deported if she didn't fuck him.

 

Pete is an ugly, unsympathetic character. He's an antagonist. He's useful to the story, but at the end of the show, I'd love for him to get hit by a bus. Ideally, the same bus that hit Betty Draper in the season 5 premiere!

Wait... Betty gets hit by a bus? WTF.. did I miss something or is this a metaphor?

got ya..haha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

He's a weasel for sure (which is why I like him), but an antagonist in the story? I don't see that.

At various points he's been holding Don's past over his head, impregnating Peggy and being a general dick to the characters under him.

He's  not the villain of the piece, but he is a rather negative character who frequently acts a roadblock to the other characters in the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

It's hope for the Betty haters.

Heh, yeah, no need for a spoiler tag.

It doesn't help that I've seen more of January Jones' work now, and realize for certain that Betty Draper isn't so much a role for her as it is the only thing she could possibly portray.

Originally Posted by Fafhrd  It's been mentioned here on the boards, and they even talk about it in the Season 3 commentaries: Pete and Trudy are the only real progressives on the show, and they're the only characters that have taken stock of themselves and made a conscious decision to try and be better people

Peggy Peggy Peggy Peggy Peggy Peggy Peggy

I think raping the au pair goes a bit beyond "prime asshole." And yes, that was totally rape, no matter what Kartheiser says. He played that brat on Angel, what does he know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

He's  not the villain of the piece, but he is a rather negative character who frequently acts a roadblock to the other characters in the show.

 

Minus Peggy and Sally, this description applies to pretty much every character on the show.  Not that it excuses anything Pete's done, just saying.

1 more week until 2 hours of Mad Men!

*hugs MoonBaseNick while jumping up and down and screeching*

It feels like this show has been off the air for five years.  This is some serious BBC shit.  

Spoilers! (Not really. Or ARE they?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fafhrd 

Spoilers! (Not really. Or ARE they?)

God I love Alison Brie. Would make love to her, allow her to make love to me, would allow her to make her gimp make love to me. Love! Her!

Orgy! It's nuts! Literally. 

Greatest joke:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres 

Weiner seems like a prick in every interview. 

Rimshot?

Weiner was surprisingly bearable in the Paleyfest panel for this that I went to a week back, despite wearing the worst outfit this side of a colorblind douchebag. Hamm was relentlessly charming, as were Slattery and Shipka. Pretty sure Staton and Kartheiser were drunk or something. January Jones still has the charisma of a rock, but she had a pink streak in her hair to distinguish herself from the mannequins at the Beverly Hills boutiques down the street, so there was that.