Mad Men Season 5 - Page 9

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Originally Posted by 3nnui 

One thing I am not sure I took in, what reaction did Megan hope to get from Peggy? She seemed obviously dissappointed from Peggy's seemingly sincere praise and acknowledgement. Maybe it's just the old, if this is as good as it gets......then fuck me. 

That's how I read it. Peggy's acting like (to continue her analogy) it's a game-winning homer in the 7th game of the World Series, while Megan's feeling like it's an RBI double in the first inning.

Even in Canada.

Basically, Megan just had the orange sherbet of the ad game.

Holy shit, I just figured out what all this season's allusions to violence are pointing towards...

Sally is going to turn into Travis Bickle!

The conversations between Roger and Sally were just amazing.  He was the only one there that treated her like an adult.

I hadn't watched a single episode of this until a month ago. I saw the Carousel scene, thought it was incredible and wanted to see the rest. I'd heard about Mad Men but figured that the 60's backdrop was just just there for a bunch of soap opera crap. I plowed through the first three seasons and it wasn't bad but the fourth and now fifth are not keeping my attention. I find the show meandering and aimless. Individual episodes don't really have a point and I haven't been impressed with any or the so-called "arcs" of the show (who is Don Draper, Cuban Missile crisis, will Don and Betty get divorced, the new agency etc). I always feel like everything is left hanging and it's frustrating. Characters and storylines come and go with no resolution or point. It also doesn't help that all of the characters are cunts in one way or another and I despise that fugly troll Elisabeth Moss, who plays Peggy, that the show unfortunately focuses too much attention on.

I find that this show holds no re-watchability nor have I felt compelled to revisit a single episode. So I think that my initial assessment of this being a glossy soap opera was correct. Now, I absolutely love the era that Mad Men takes place in and the fact that it's set in New York is a bonus but as a fan of the original Playhouse 90 and the works of Rod Serling and Paddy Chayefsky, I have to say that Mad Men leaves a lot to be desired. i just couldn't care less about any of these characters and wouldn't mind if they all ended up being massacred for my amusement. 

I'll endure until the end of this season but that's it for me. Coincidentally, I saw all four season for sale at a pawn shop the other day. Probably sold by someone who found nothing worth keeping. I know how that person feels. 

Fugly little troll? Elizabeth Moss? Surely you jest.  Or are blind.  

blind? no..just an idiot.

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Originally Posted by OMFGWTFBBQ 

 

I'll endure until the end of this season but that's it for me. Coincidentally, I saw all four season for sale at a pawn shop the other day. Probably sold by someone who found nothing worth keeping. I know how that person feels. 

Hahahaha. A bit of a flair for the over dramatic, no? And you complain that this show is a soap opera. 

Originally Posted by Bailey 

Holy shit that was Julia Ormond??

The top of her head, anyway.

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Originally Posted by 3nnui 

Seems that only Roger and Peter emerged relatively unscathed from this episode.

When they showed up to the ball and Creepy Pete walked up I exclaimed for him to "Stay away!" from Sally.

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Originally Posted by OMFGWTFBBQ 

I find that this show holds no re-watchability nor have I felt compelled to revisit a single episode. So I think that my initial assessment of this being a glossy soap opera was correct.

I've got news for ya: most shows are glossy soap operas, whether we want to admit it or not; the format all-but-demands it.

Calling a television show a "(glorified/high-end/____) soap opera" is like calling an indie film "pretentious".  I pretty much translate it to "I don't like this and I can't quite explain why."  I know it's possible for someone to provide enough context to indicate that they're using it correctly or at least know what they mean by it, but the day has yet to come.

Also, am I wrong to like the fact that the show doesn't wrap up "arcs" in neat little bows? Not that it's always bad when that happens (see, Breaking Bad) but in the case of Mad Men, it's more about character and tone than sweeping arcs. It also feels more realistic. 

Interesting insight:

http://badassdigest.com/2012/04/30/the-annotated-mad-men-on-shirley-temples-and-codfish-balls-and-sexualizing/

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Originally Posted by Mr Pretzel 

It's interesting that you mention Chayefsky and still don't get what this show is trying to do. And according to many people the show achieves a depth that isn't matched by most of the stuff that is produced in TV or film.
I get what you mean with your point about character arcs hanging in the air, the "soap opera effect". But that comes mostly from the serial format of the show. Not from lack of depth or characterizations. It seems that you can't read between the lines enough to appreciate all these details. Or maybe the "cuntness" of the characters (which is part of the point of this show) is too appalling to you to get involved.
I personally always saw MM like the TV-show version of "Death of a Salesman" (i know there are differences and DoaS is about a different theme, but still): The unraveling of facades.
edit:
The cuban missile crisis was not a story arc in the show. Is was a catalyst for some of the actual story arcs.
I mean, imagine how a lesser show would have dealt with this or Kennedys death.

 I don't see much "depth" here. What I see is a scattershot approach where the show is desperate to fill out it's season running time with pointless diversions (Don spending a month with that chick and then the blonde cripple) and non-sequitur's galore that go nowhere. There just isn't any driving force behind anything and each season they throw in some event that's supposed to ratchet up the drama (Cuban Crisis, Kennedy killed, Agency Closed) purely because "hey, it's the end of the season, we've got to make some noise!". All the little details of the era don't add up to anything. When I started watching MM, I really appreciated the slow burn approach but it's got to lead somewhere.

I don't think I've ever seen someone understand a show less. You should probably just not watch anymore, frankly I'm shocked you made it this far. Are you a masochist?

It's Creepy Thin Man. He's just trolling. 

This one feels a lot more like classic Mad Men than the last two episodes did. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed them -- but as far as the rather staid Mad Men goes, they were pretty unconventional. They really ratcheted up the tension, what with the violent and hallucinatory content that was simmering in them, but this lets things shift a little bit more back to a feeling of normalcy. As normal as these people get, I suppose.

It's hard to predict "what will happen" on Mad Men, because things don't really "happen" all that often -- at least in terms of the events, like breakups or deaths, that comprise the major plot points of most other shows. It's kind of like real life that way. And that's what boggles my mind about people who accuse this show of being a soap opera. The only thing in common between the two is a lack of plot momentum (clearly intentional, on Mad Men's part) and an emphasis on relationship drama, and while the character inconsistency on a soap opera is the result of undisciplined writing, here it's due more to an effort to imitate the simultaneously repetitive and yet constantly shifting nature of modern reality, particularly as these people would have experienced it.

Really?  I thought Signal 30 felt a lot like classic Mad Men myself. (Though I agree Mystery Date and Far Away Places felt fairly different.)

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

Really?  I thought Signal 30 felt a lot like classic Mad Men myself.

The Lane-Campbell fistfight is more what I was thinking of. That's pretty unprecedented, as far as this show goes, I think. And the undercurrent of violence... it's been there with Pete before, but I don't know if I ever felt the same broiling tension as I did during that episode. Maybe it's more my response that was out of the ordinary, rather than the episode itself.

There has been an undercurrent of violence this season that I think is somewhat unprecedented for the show. The fistfight, the quasi-violent nature of Don and Megan's first sex scene, the fever dreams, the backdrop of mass murders and rioting, the gory car accident films, Don tackling Megan and kicking the door in... I'm really wondering if it's leading anywhere. As someone else has pointed out, Pete's gun has been either shown or mentioned in just about every season so far. 

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Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

 As someone else has pointed out, Pete's gun has been either shown or mentioned in just about every season so far. 

We'll know we're in for trouble if one of the episodes includes this.

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Originally Posted by JMulder  And that's what boggles my mind about people who accuse this show of being a soap opera. The only thing in common between the two is a lack of plot momentum (clearly intentional, on Mad Men's part) and an emphasis on relationship drama, and while the character inconsistency on a soap opera is the result of undisciplined writing, here it's due more to an effort to imitate the simultaneously repetitive and yet constantly shifting nature of modern reality, particularly as these people would have experienced it.

I don't get this.  The hallmark of soap opera writing is that it's all hollow plot momentum, with nonsensical twists thrown out left and right. 

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Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

There has been an undercurrent of violence this season that I think is somewhat unprecedented for the show. The fistfight, the quasi-violent nature of Don and Megan's first sex scene, the fever dreams, the backdrop of mass murders and rioting, the gory car accident films, Don tackling Megan and kicking the door in... I'm really wondering if it's leading anywhere. As someone else has pointed out, Pete's gun has been either shown or mentioned in just about every season so far. 

The violence is certainly notched up, but don't forget the Lawn Mower Incident (from "guy walks into an Ad Agency") and Don' flashbacks to Korea and his Dad buying the farm (heh). Those were all "impersonal" in the sense that Don never actually saw any North Koreans (I think), and the Lawn Mower think was carelessness more than anything. Now we see characters acting violently vs reacting to violent situations.

Am I the only one who thinks the older generation of women in this show are all portrayed as embittered Harpies? Peggy's Mom and Sally's Step Grandmom are like freaking the Jason and Freddy Krueger of Motherhood. Sally and Peggy's reactions to them really bring home what the 60's are coming to be about, moreso than the occasional political stuff and the drugs.

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Originally Posted by Schwartz 

I don't get this.  The hallmark of soap opera writing is that it's all hollow plot momentum, with nonsensical twists thrown out left and right. 

Yeah, that's what I mean though. There's not much in common between that and Mad Men, even though people accuse it of soap opera-esque inconsistency. I mean, a soap opera artificially generates plot by manufacturing the same "major events" that Mad Men studiously avoids and even undermines, as it does with this episode's wedding proposal fakeout. They're only very superficially similar, is what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

Am I the only one who thinks the older generation of women in this show are all portrayed as embittered Harpies? Peggy's Mom and Sally's Stepmom are like freaking the Jason and Freddy Krueger of Motherhood.

Sally's stepmom is Megan... did you mean someone else?

He means her step grandmother.

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Originally Posted by JMulder 

 

Yeah, that's what I mean though. There's not much in common between that and Mad Men, even though people accuse it of soap opera-esque inconsistency. I mean, a soap opera artificially generates plot by manufacturing the same "major events" that Mad Men studiously avoids and even undermines, as it does with this episode's wedding proposal fakeout. They're only very superficially similar, is what I'm saying.

I don't even think they're superficially similar, but I'll quit belaboring the point now.

I thought they gave the step grandmother a little sympathy earlier this season.  She's an old crank, but she: A) Hates Betty, and B) Looks like the Mom from Goonies, so we're cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

Am I the only one who thinks the older generation of women in this show are all portrayed as embittered Harpies? Peggy's Mom and Sally's Stepmom are like freaking the Jason and Freddy Krueger of Motherhood.

This is true, and actually something I'd consider among the show's flaws. All these women are basically interchangeable -- Joan's mother is the exact same way. Perhaps it's period-accurate, and authentically portrays an actual generational clash... but it makes me think Weiner must have had a very domineering mother figure in his childhood or something, because it's like once you break fifty your only remaining option as a woman is to be pettily jealous of your daughters and sabotage their attempts at independence with rigid patriarchal dogma.

After this episode, and Megan's idea pretty much saving the company from losing Heinz.  I can see a bit of competition between Peggy and Megan.  Megan, being married to Don now has a bit more say and leverage, more so then Peggy could ever have. While Peggy on the other hand worked her ass off to get where she is today without sleeping with her boss is now watching Megan just pass her right by.

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Originally Posted by JMulder 

 

 

This is true, and actually something I'd consider among the show's flaws. All these women are basically interchangeable -- Joan's mother is the exact same way. Perhaps it's period-accurate, and authentically portrays an actual generational clash... but it makes me think Weiner must have had a very domineering mother figure in his childhood or something, because it's like once you break fifty your only remaining option as a woman is to be pettily jealous of your daughters and sabotage their attempts at independence with rigid patriarchal dogma.

I don't know, I'm not seeing it.

Peggy's mom watched her get impregnated and dumped and nearly destroy her life already; telling her to "get a cat" is harsh, but it very well might be the best thing. It's certainly defensible.

Sally's new Bluto has shown to be strict but caring, and certainly a step up from Betty.

Joan's mom is clearly who she got her hang-ups from, as the old lady was still blinded by Doc Handsome's perfect exterior. She's behind the times, but we can assume she's also taking care of the kid so joan can pursue her career.

These characters are all commonly used as antagonists or contrary viewpoints to the main characters, so it's natural for us to disagree with or even dislike them, but none of them strike me as particularly mean-spirited. Betty's still the reigning queen of bad mothers, although Megan's mom has come out of nowhere to move into second. 

I'm trying to see if there is any correlation between last week when Megan was gobbling up the orange sherbet and this week when her mom was gobbling up the whi...

Nah, probably nothing.

Well, I believe that Megan was being sarcastic and her mother was bei....... oh I see what you did there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick 

After this episode, and Megan's idea pretty much saving the company from losing Heinz.  I can see a bit of competition between Peggy and Megan.  Megan, being married to Don now has a bit more say and leverage, more so then Peggy could ever have. While Peggy on the other hand worked her ass off to get where she is today without sleeping with her boss is now watching Megan just pass her right by.

What I liked about the end of this episode, is that that situation is exactly what we -- and Megan -- were primed to expect as a reaction from Peggy. But Peggy's happiness for Megan's triumph was not just unexpected but far more genuine to Peggy's character (and much less "soap opera"). It was all the more delightful considering what a disappointing day Peggy'd just had (no proposal, although that wasn't ultimately bad news, and then the blowup with mom), readying us for more hurtful disappointment on her face. But I loved her cheery "Relax! You kicked ass!" talk to Megan. If anything, I can see this leading Peggy to see Megan as more of a colleague now, with even less workplace resentment, knowing now that Megan can do the job, and isn't just there by the grace of Don. I suspect Peggy likes having another capable woman sharing the office. There'll always be a sense of competition between copywriters, but both Megan and Peggy seem too modern to make it about competition between the two women just because they're the two women.

But I can see Megan hearing Peggy's "This is as good as this job gets" and thinking, "I certainly hope not."

Especially after her dad shit all over her workplace victory, calling her a sellout. Of all the reasons every tablemate had to stare off into middle distance in that shot, what he did to her I felt was the cruelest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMulder 

 

 

This is true, and actually something I'd consider among the show's flaws. All these women are basically interchangeable -- Joan's mother is the exact same way. Perhaps it's period-accurate, and authentically portrays an actual generational clash... but it makes me think Weiner must have had a very domineering mother figure in his childhood or something, because it's like once you break fifty your only remaining option as a woman is to be pettily jealous of your daughters and sabotage their attempts at independence with rigid patriarchal dogma.

Maybe, but in that last episode we saw Roger's ex-wife, who's close to their age, and she had mellowed considerably. Perhaps because she's divorced and away from her soul-crushing marriage?

She's mellow as long as dirty teenagers aren't disrupting the order of things.

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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson 

But I can see Megan hearing Peggy's "This is as good as this job gets" and thinking, "I certainly hope not."

Yes, between this and her father's disappointment, I could see Megan developing an arc where she is successful at the job and quits anyway after remaining dissatisfied.  For all the romanticizing of the "creatives" in the agency, the show rarely seems to acknowledge that there are higher forms of expression the artistically-inclined could be aspiring to.  Kosgrove sort of does so, but he's so mellow and well-adjusted that I sort of forget he's in the show even right after an episode that features him heavily.

Gee, Megan's dad you miserable wet blanket, no wonder your wife is blowing dudes in the next room. There were a lot of people getting where they "wanted" only to find out it wasn't exactly what they did want.

That sure was a last minute reversal of the episode's taste. That nonetheless led to a hell of a closing shot.

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

He means her step grandmother.

Yep fixed!

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Originally Posted by Farsight 

 

 

I don't know, I'm not seeing it.

 

Peggy's mom watched her get impregnated and dumped and nearly destroy her life already; telling her to "get a cat" is harsh, but it very well might be the best thing. It's certainly defensible.

 

Sally's new Bluto has shown to be strict but caring, and certainly a step up from Betty.

 

Joan's mom is clearly who she got her hang-ups from, as the old lady was still blinded by Doc Handsome's perfect exterior. She's behind the times, but we can assume she's also taking care of the kid so joan can pursue her career.

 

These characters are all commonly used as antagonists or contrary viewpoints to the main characters, so it's natural for us to disagree with or even dislike them, but none of them strike me as particularly mean-spirited. Betty's still the reigning queen of bad mothers, although Megan's mom has come out of nowhere to move into second. 

Peggy was not "nearly destroyed"; in fact I'd argue that the experience of having and giving up the baby served to liberate her from her Mom's soul crushing ways. I DO have some sympathy for Peg's mom this episode however: her daughter had to have known what her reaction would be to the "happy news".

Sally's Bluto kindly told a 9 year old girl the charming story of how her Dad kicked her in the ass, so hard she flew across the room, for no reason other than to make the point that life sucks and all she should expect is to receive random ass kickings. Wonderful.

Joan and her Mother have the most complicated relationship in the show. Some hostility but they understand each other too. And they can actually communicate with one another.

Megan's mom and Dad are equally bad and it's a wonder Megan turned out so well. Actually I'd say the Dad is more of an asshole. He's got that hot to trot wife and he runs around with a Grad student (assuming that's not his wife's wishful thinking: maybe he's totally celebate!).

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Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 

Peggy was not "nearly destroyed"; in fact I'd argue that the experience of having and giving up the baby served to liberate her from her Mom's soul crushing ways.

I dunno man, she looked pretty rough when Don made his "this didn't happen, and you'll be surprised after a while how much this didn't happen" speech. 

I think Don's support in and out of the office, and her life there, probably would have resulted in that without the baby. It seemed to me the whole situation with the baby put her near a very dark place. 

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Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 

Sally's Bluto kindly told a 9 year old girl the charming story of how her Dad kicked her in the ass, so hard she flew across the room, for no reason other than to make the point that life sucks and all she should expect is to receive random ass kickings. Wonderful.

That wasn't the only point of that story. She was also making Sally aware of the difference between being strict and being cruel. After that, Sally read that newspaper and ran to her for comfort and protection. I can't imagine her doing that with Betty.

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Originally Posted by Chavez 

 

 

I dunno man, she looked pretty rough when Don made his "this didn't happen, and you'll be surprised after a while how much this didn't happen" speech. 

 

 

I think Don's support in and out of the office, and her life there, probably would have resulted in that without the baby. It seemed to me the whole situation with the baby put her near a very dark place. 

Precisely. Don's line (or Dick's to be more accurate) was the moment where he saved her from a very different fate. She was a young, naive girl when she arrived at the agency. Pete exploited that like the predator he is (we've seen it three times now) and nearly derailed her future. Don's line wasn't just advice on how to cope, it was support and understanding from A Man and The Boss, without which it's impossible for me to imagine her character finding her way back into that office.

Of course, as far as we know, Peggy's mom is less aware of the details, but intimately aware of the mistake her daughter has already made when it comes to men.

Yeah, she was committed after a nervous breakdown after the baby. Don and work pulled her out of it, and her family's been trying to push her back to that point with Catholic Guilt ever since.

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Originally Posted by Farsight 

She was a young, naive girl when she arrived at the agency. Pete exploited that like the predator he is (we've seen it three times now) and nearly derailed her future. Don's line wasn't just advice on how to cope, it was support and understanding from A Man and The Boss, without which it's impossible for me to imagine her character finding her way back into that office.

Don helped her along, but he didn't save her. And Peggy's affair with Pete contributed to her breakdown, but Pete didn't cause it. In both cases she made her own choices (to engage in the affair, and to leave the mental hospital). I think it's very patronizing towards the character to take both those choices away from her. She may have been naive and young but she had, and continues to have, autonomy. 

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Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

 

 

Don helped her along, but he didn't save her. And Peggy's affair with Pete contributed to her breakdown, but Pete didn't cause it. In both cases she made her own choices (to engage in the affair, and to leave the mental hospital). I think it's very patronizing towards the character to take both those choices away from her. She may have been naive and young but she had, and continues to have, autonomy. 

Both things can be true. As I said, she made a mistake with Pete. Being 'saved' by someone doesn't take away the credit for all of one's future accomplishments. But Pete and Don -were- in the position of 'patron' over Peggy, in terms of life experience and rank within the firm. They had the power to strongly influence her life, and both did.

Calling Don's visit to Peggy at her lowest point anything less than 'saving' her does a disservice to the scene and the impact it had on the characters' relationship.