THIS WILL TEAR YOUR SOUL APART - Page 2

No, I'm dismissive of people who take themselves and their favorite franchises too seriously, and I say that as both a Hellraiser fan and a Batman fan. I didn't mean to imply that ALL Hellraiser fans are self-serious.

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

No, I'm dismissive of people who take themselves and their favorite franchises too seriously, and I say that as both a Hellraiser fan and a Batman fan.

Yeah, there's been dismissive of people who take stuff too seriously and then there's building an entire arguement around 'well, if they don't like it they're too serious'. But whatever, I just know if I wrote something like that I'd have a dozen people jumping down my throat for it.

The Dark Shape is correct. HELL ON EARTH isn't batshit. It's rote.

If anything, HELLBOUND is the one that's batshit. And gloriously so.

I wasn't building an entire argument about anything, just amusing myself with the idea of gothy teenagers getting all mad when CD cenobite shows up because it "shits on the mythology" or whatever. Disliking the movie because it is (admittedly) bad is perfectly acceptable.

I don't know that 3 qualifies as rote. For all its flaws (which are rather all-consuming), I don't think it can be considered mechanical repetition of 1 and 2, given that it has humans getting turned into retarded cenobites.

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Originally Posted by zak chase 

The Dark Shape is correct. HELL ON EARTH isn't batshit. It's rote.

 

If anything, HELLBOUND is the one that's batshit. And gloriously so.

Yep.  C'mon, people, let's glorify Hellbound -- the film that ends with the lead character tearing off another character's skin, then smiling a perfectly white smile as happy music plays!

I love Hellbound.  So so nuts.

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Originally Posted by Joshua Miller 

I don't know that 3 qualifies as rote. For all its flaws (which are rather all-consuming), I don't think it can be considered mechanical repetition of 1 and 2, given that it has humans getting turned into retarded cenobites.

It's rote because it takes something that's legitimately a bit insane and turns it into a standard slasher flick. 
 

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

It's rote because it takes something that's legitimately a bit insane and turns it into a standard slasher flick. 
 

Well, I guess we're getting into semantics then. Cause I can't think of a standard slasher flick that bears resemblance to HELLRAISER 3. But I understand why y'all are arguing its "rote" qualities. It is certainly a shift in tone and general attitude from 1 and 2, in particular as relates to Pinhead, trying to turn him into a Freddy or Jason superstar. 

The best thing about Hell On Earth are the scenes with Doug Bradley as Captain Elliott Spencer.  Bradley seemed to relish being about to appear on screen outside of the make-up and it really shows in the performance.  Hell On Earth is most definitely flawed, but it is still enjoyable.  Bloodline had some great ideas, but the film product as it exist today doesn't back them up.  It would be nice to get an actual director's cut some day, but I doubt that will ever happen.  That sucker was butchered just as much as Halloween 6.  Everyone shits on the Scott Derrikson (Exorcism of Emily Rose, Day The Earth Stood Still) directed Inferno, but I value it above almost all the sequels.  I honestly don't find too much wrong with the film and it seems far more in line with Barker's original idea for the franchise than the other sequels.  It doesn't have the creativity and energy of the originals, but it is a solid sequel.  I think most were pissed at the time because it made Pinhead a supporting character again, as opposed to being front & center like 3&4.  Hellseeker was a waste of a film and of Kirsty Cotton, from what I remember of it.  I can't remember much about Deader beyond the fact that I enjoyed it more than Part 6.

My current franchise ranking:

1. Hellbound

2. Hellraiser

3. Inferno

4. Hell On Earth

5. Bloodline

6. Deader

7. Hellseeker

I haven't seen Hellworld or (obviously) Revelations.  I plan to brave both when Josh gets around to doing his Franchise Me take on the series.  I haven't watched any of them in quite awhile, so the ranking might shift a bit........though I doubt it.

Anyway, this awful looking film was made so that the Weinsteins could retain the rights long enough to get their remake off the ground that Patrick Lussier & Todd Farmer are doing.................which seems to be going for a 2013 release.  It appears the duo are making Halloween 3 (2012) first (even though they haven't outright confirmed it).

What's really sad about Revelations isn't the fact that it was filmed in two weeks on a $300,000 budget.  What's sad is the fact that they didn't even bother to call Doug Bradley until two weeks before the shoot was scheduled to begin and offered him pennies to come back as Pinhead.  He saw the writing on the wall (shitty pay, shitty script, shitty production) and declined.

Wasn't there one DTV entry where Ashley Laurence returned as Kristy? I heard that one wan't that bad.

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Originally Posted by felix 

Wasn't there one DTV entry where Ashley Laurence returned as Kristy? I heard that one wan't that bad.

The sixth film, Hellseeker.  I remember it being rather dull and pretty much a complete waste of her much-anticipated return to the franchise.

Also, reading more on the proposed "remake", it seems like more of a reboot than anything.  Lussier & Farmer have no intention of outright remaking Clive's original film and are instead focusing on the mythology of the series.  I'm kinda wondering if it will be some sort of sequel.................at least to the original two films.

Hellseeker suffers from being too similar to its immediate predecessor, but it has a cool ending.

Here's my take on the 4 DTV sequels, ranked in order from good to bad, or bad to worse as it were:

INFERNO: You won't want to believe it while watching, but this is the best of them. Craig Sheffer is a charismatic void, but the story is pretty good, especially if you like JACOB'S LADDER as it is essentially the same story. Clearly did not start life as a Hellraiser sequel and had the elements of the franchise shoehorned in for financial reasons. Still, you could do worse.

HELLSEEKER: Pretty much the same movie as INFERNO, only they shoehorn Kirsty in this time, and she's barely in it. The Hellraiser elements seem a little more organic to the story, and it has entertainment value. Not great, but watchable. I wouldn't watch it right after INFERNO though cause it's too similar and might cause confusion.

HELLWORLD: This one is utterly ludicrous and wrong-headed, but fun for those reasons. Starring our new Superman, Henry Cavill, not acting very heroic. Lance Henriksen is the villain, and as a Lance fan I have to rate it better than last for that reason alone. Has a twist ending that'll make you want to smash your head against the wall because of it's stupidity.

DEADER: Duller. I can't even remember what happened in this it's so unremarkable. No longer hot Kari Whurer is in it with her bad plastic surgery face. Something about dead people coming back to life. Boooooooring.

Inferno's the best of the DTV sequels, but its weird Christian morality bend doesn't fit with the rest of the series.  As rankings go:

1. Hellbound

2. Hellraiser

3. Inferno

4. Hellseeker

5. Bloodline

6. Deader

7. Hellworld

8. Hell On Earth

9. Revelations

Even Barker is disowning REVEALATIONS.

"Hello, my friends. I want to put on record that the flic [sic] out there using the word Hellraiser is no fuckin' child of mine," he told his followers, adding in his own colorful way, "I have nothing to do with the fuckin' thing. If they claim its from the mind of Clive Barker,it's a lie. It's not even from my butt-hole."
 

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Originally Posted by felix 

Even Barker is disowning REVEALATIONS.

 

"Hello, my friends. I want to put on record that the flic [sic] out there using the word Hellraiser is no fuckin' child of mine," he told his followers, adding in his own colorful way, "I have nothing to do with the fuckin' thing. If they claim its from the mind of Clive Barker,it's a lie. It's not even from my butt-hole."
 

Barker weighs in with own 'Personal Continuity'! Hilarious. I mean, why isn't he taking an active role in any of this? I get that he can't get funding for shit (like his long-lost Tortured Souls film project) but after a certain point you gotta take some personal responsibility, correct? I don't believe his heart is in it.

Also, I had no idea there were so many shit DTV installments! Just knowing of their existence raises my esteem for Bloodlines. I should do a rewatch of 1-4 sometime soon... maybe I'll follow along with Franchise Me.

Hellraiser improved when it went DTV.  Inferno especially is far better than the two theatrical films that proceeded it.

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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape 

Hellraiser improved when it went DTV.  Inferno especially is far better than the two theatrical films that proceeded it.

100% agreed.  Hell, ranking-wise we almost seem in complete agreement.

Tommy Wiseau's HELLRAISER: THE ROOM

Gawd. That looks like a fan-film or daytime soap and the found footage element is overdone and now predictable as hell (and I love TROLL-HUNTER, CLOVERFIELD, and enjoyed PA).

That many HELL-RAISERS (the first 2 are awesome) and only 1 NIGHTBREED. Criminal.

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Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 
That many HELL-RAISERS (the first 2 are awesome) and only 1 NIGHTBREED. Criminal.

Agreed.  I keep hoping that once Clive is FINALLY finished writing The Scarlet Gospels that he turns his attention towards the Cabal sequel that he has always promised.......be it a novel, a film, or both.

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Originally Posted by S.D. Bob Plissken 

Agreed.  I keep hoping that once Clive is FINALLY finished writing The Scarlet Gospels that he turns his attention towards the Cabal sequel that he has always promised.......be it a novel, a film, or both.

 

CABAL was actually supposed to be the first of a trilogy. Just like what was planned for THE BOOKS OF THE ART. And then there is that GALILEE sequel. And, of course, THE SCARLET GOSPELS was expected years ago.

Long story short ... don't get your hopes up.

Man, I'm watching HELL ON EARTH right now thanks to the really crappy pan-and-scan version on Netflix, and I am just not on the same page as you guys. The movie is way over the top and totally goofy, but it is a million times more enjoyable than any of the DTV sequels, which are mostly drab and dull. If you honestly get more enjoyment out of watching DEADER than HELL ON EARTH, then I just don't understand you. The nightclub scene in HELL ON EARTH alone is better than DEADER, HELLSEEKER and HELLWORLD put together. I get why HOE (ha!) is a major disappointment after the admittedly superb HELLBOUND, but it's great goofy fun judged as a stand-alone film.

That said, that dream sequence/flashback with Doug Jones's human persona is truly irredeemable. 

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

I think I'm the only person alive who actually likes HELLRAISER: BLOODLINE and thinks the big reveal at the end is clever and a good capper to the series.

No you're not. I love the movie too, as well as the big reveal. I've never understood why it's hated so much.

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

Reasons I enjoy HELL ON EARTH: 1) The brunette is hot. 2) CD Cenobite is hilarious. 3. It is batshit and undoubtedly despised by self-serious Hellraiser fans.

Agreed on all counts. I can't stop laughing when camera-head cenobite says "READY FOR YOUR CLOSE UP, JOEY!?"

I do enjoy both Hell On Earth and Bloodline.  I prefer Inferno over both of them though.  None of the films past the fifth one are worth a damn.

Plus, HOE has Motorhead over the end credits with a song called "Hellraiser". HELL ON EARTH FTW.

Doesn't Armored Saint make an appearance in the film as well?

The issue I had with Bloodline is that it felt like one long extended exposition sequence.  It was like the (other) greatest hits of the timeline without telling one complete movie.  It wasn't terrible, but I had trouble getting involved in the story since it could only spend so much time on the three storylines and their characters.
 

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Originally Posted by Rene (Mr.Eko) 

No you're not. I love the movie too, as well as the big reveal. I've never understood why it's hated so much.

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Originally Posted by S.D. Bob Plissken 

Doesn't Armored Saint make an appearance in the film as well?

Yep.  They're performing in the club when it gets busted up, and the closing credits feature them covering "Hellraiser," from Ozzy Osbourne's No More Tears album.  The song isn't related to the character.

It's Motorhead covering the Ozzy song "Hellraiser" at the end. And Armored Saint aren't wearing their armor in the film. WTF!?

After some Youtube research, I stand corrected.  I consider myself a fan of the franchise, but I haven't bothered to watch the third installment since it was in theaters in '92.

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

Man, I'm watching HELL ON EARTH right now thanks to the really crappy pan-and-scan version on Netflix, and I am just not on the same page as you guys. The movie is way over the top and totally goofy, but it is a million times more enjoyable than any of the DTV sequels, which are mostly drab and dull. If you honestly get more enjoyment out of watching DEADER than HELL ON EARTH, then I just don't understand you. The nightclub scene in HELL ON EARTH alone is better than DEADER, HELLSEEKER and HELLWORLD put together. I get why HOE (ha!) is a major disappointment after the admittedly superb HELLBOUND, but it's great goofy fun judged as a stand-alone film.

It's crap, stand-alone or not.  Awful acting, silly plot.  Granted, I'm not much of an "it's so bad it's good!" kind of guy.  Bad is generally just bad.  (Except for "YOU BASTARD!  YOU INVADED MY MIND!"  That, admittedly, is pretty hilarious.)

Deader is better than Hell On Earth on account of the wicked chain rip.  And Inferno's better than Hell On Earth on just about every damn level other than 'it's a fun bad movie!'.

I'd prefer a good movie, but I'll take a so bad it's good movie over just bad or mediocre, and I don't think any of the Hellraiser movies after HELLBOUND rank above mediocre. For me, HOE has enough sheer ridiculous entertainment value to rate as so bad it's good. I don't expect to convince anyone of this however.

The closest comparison I could make is with FREDDY'S REVENGE in that it it so wrong-headed in every way but wildly entertaining nonetheless for all the wrong reasons.

Freddy's Revenge is sooooo much better than Hell On Earth.

Hell On Earth is so bad that the acting talents of Jadzia Dax are wasted in it.  That's right, Trekkies, I went there.

I will never get the hate for ANOES 2.  I flatout love the first four Nightmare films.  It's after Dream Master that the franchise went off the rails.

Back on topic, I think it speaks volumes about how much we all love the original Hellraiser films that this putrid DTV sequel already has two pages worth of comments.

If they had stopped at Dream Master, we wouldn't have the laugh riot that is Dream Child.  I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have a small boy revealing his powers with a Louie Armstrong impersonation and a benevolent ghost nun trapping a monster in her super womb like a Japanese hentai cartoon played in reverse.

I think HELL ON EARTH and INFERNO are both fucking terrible. Just in different ways. So there.

I'll give you that!

I just wish they had gone with Peter Jackson for the sixth entry.  Freddy's Dead is a horrible movie.

Speaking of FREDDY'S REVENGE, I'm watching BLOODLINE now and it stars the Meryl Streep lookalike beard girlfriend from that film! I had also forgotten that hateful child actor Courtland Mead was in this. Damn I wish Pinhead would kill him. Still, I maintain that it isn't as bad as it's rep. I can tell it was slashed to shit by Dimension.

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Originally Posted by S.D. Bob Plissken 

I will never get the hate for ANOES 2.  I flatout love the first four Nightmare films.  It's after Dream Master that the franchise went off the rails.

 

Back on topic, I think it speaks volumes about how much we all love the original Hellraiser films that this putrid DTV sequel already has two pages worth of comments.

I've been praising A Nightmare On Elm Street 2 for years. I genuinely believe it's a great movie that's the last time until New Nightmare that we saw the serious, non jokey, Fred Krueger. I don't understand the hate either. Sure the homosexual undertones are there, but that just adds unintentional hilarity to an otherwise straight up dark slasher movie. Take those elements out, and we have a creature who was once a man wanting to get back into this world to wreak havoc by way of possessing the body of the teenage boy who lives in his house. 

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Originally Posted by S.D. Bob Plissken 

I'll give you that!

 

I just wish they had gone with Peter Jackson for the sixth entry.  Freddy's Dead is a horrible movie.

Funny, I was just thinking about how much I love Freddy's Dead. All the Freddy movies really. A solid franchise all around. Surely I can't be the only one??

Freddy's Dead is the only one that I truly dislike, outside of the remake.

Anyway, like Hellraiser, ANOES is another franchise that is positively ripe for Franchise Me coverage.

EDIT - Apparently I own Hellseeker, though I have no recollection of buying it.  Interesting.  I'm glad that Netflix has Deader and Hellworld up on Instant (every entry but 1&2 are available, actually).  Hopefully they will still be there when Josh starts on the series on down the road.

Elm Street's the one long-running horror franchise where, as bad as it got, it was still entertaining.  Freddy's Dead is awful but I still couldn't help but laugh at Freddy killing a kid in a Nintendo game.  (I promise I bathed afterward.)

Freddy's Dead is infinitely easier to tolerate if you imagine there's a credit that says "Directed by Chuck Jones" at the beginning.

I started watching Hellraiser III on Instant in the middle of last night. Despite how truly awful the dialogue, performances, direction and cinematography were, I found myself immensely enjoying it. I know there's a really awesome movie in there somewhere. I forgot the subtext of the "Doc" producer character, and how his sole motivation to be so kind to the female reporter is because he desperately wants to fuck her. Pinhead is sadly laughable as well; the one-liners and all. Really, really poor. Too bad the first two aren't available for instant viewing, as those are the ones I really want to revisit. I don't think it's a coincidence the two best films (by far) are being withheld by Netflix. 

When Pinhead's trapped in the block of stone and basically talking at Kevin Berhardt the commentary track has Anthony Hickox almost losing his mind over 'this Shakespearan dialogue....I just love this Shakespearean dialogue'. It's definitely one of my favourite bits of the commentary because Hickox comes across as both adorably goofy and kind of dumb as a post.

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Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

Too bad the first two aren't available for instant viewing, as those are the ones I really want to revisit. I don't think it's a coincidence the two best films (by far) are being withheld by Netflix. 

That's just Netflix telling everyone that they should be ashamed for not owning the first two films!

All kidding aside, I will concede that Freddy's Dead has enough entertaining bits to keep it from being a complete waste.

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

It's Motorhead covering the Ozzy song "Hellraiser" at the end. And Armored Saint aren't wearing their armor in the film. WTF!?

Is it really a cover when you co-wrote the song though? It's always sounded much more like a Motorhead song than an Ozzy song anyway.

Hellraiser 3's problem isn't just that it goes against all the established mythology of the previous two films, it's that it's really dull. If you're going to have Pinhead go on a massacre at least make it more exciting than what we got here. The only really great moment he gets is his 'Jesus wept' line.

Conceptually, I don't have a problem with an unleashed Pinhead going on a rampage.  It is the execution that is the problem.  He was separated from his human side at the end of Hellbound, stripping him of what helped temper his more demonic desires.  The film is about trying to reconnect the spirit of Captain Elliott with the Pinhead cenobite.  It is an intriguing premise that the film itself fails to back up.  What could have truly been "hell on earth" just turns into him spouting oneliners while creating goofy new cenobites.  It is entertaining in its own way, but definitely a wasted opportunity.

In terms of Revelations, I heard a few months ago from another site that the movie was the bottom of the barrel worst. After seeing the trailer today, they hit the nail on the head. This looks as bad as that Howling movie set in that Western town where most of the characters are actual residents of that town.

I've only seen the first movie in the long series but even as someone who is not familiar with the entire franchise, what an insult that movie is. I feel bad for all you Pinhead fans. And you can see it on the big screen soon!

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Originally Posted by S.D. Bob Plissken 

Conceptually, I don't have a problem with an unleashed Pinhead going on a rampage.  It is the execution that is the problem.  He was separated from his human side at the end of Hellbound, stripping him of what helped temper his more demonic desires.  The film is about trying to reconnect the spirit of Captain Elliott with the Pinhead cenobite.  It is an intriguing premise that the film itself fails to back up.  What could have truly been "hell on earth" just turns into him spouting oneliners while creating goofy new cenobites.  It is entertaining in its own way, but definitely a wasted opportunity.

I'll give the first four Hellraisers this, they had a consistent storyline, even maintaining a few of the same actors. Hell on Earth may not be great, but it has an incredible ending. The building's architecture being influenced by the Lament Configuration is a goose-bump inducing capper. Unfortunately it's ruined by the fourth movie that reveals it was all because of...bloodlines.

Seriously though, I do enjoy the fourth movie. It can't be faulted for being set in space, as it did it first before Leprechaun and Jason. It has an ambitious plot that attempts to investigate the tension between old world superstition and new world logic, but it doesn't quite hold together. There is an incredibly creepy moment when Merchant's wife rounds a corner to find Pinhead standing at the foot of the stairs next to her son.

As for "personal continuity", I'll take the comic book series written by Barker that eschewed Christian mythology all together in favor of the Cenobites vs. an Earth Mother spirit. That's the true sequel to Hellbound.