Homeland on Showtime - Page 4

NOW SHE WON'T REMEMBER THE CLUE!!!

Unbelieveable, I did not think they could make it worse after the midpoint fail in this episode but to pull a Fringe and go with amnesia as the starting point for next season is horrifying.

Really, those fucking writers have no ideas on how to sustain or make a show watchable or interesting...what a tremendous waste of time and talent. I stopped watching Fringe after they played the amnesia card in the season 2 opener. I am likely done with this as well.

Later.

Is there even a second season if Brody's vest worked during the first attempt?

Why not?

Yep, pretty weak.

Double post.

Another dozen episodes of crazy Carrie and her crazy accusations of Brody which nobody else will believe.  Why deviate from what works, right?  Right!?

Did you guys seriously think that this show was going to go into season two with Damian Lewis off the board? Yeah, Homeland could have made for a bitching miniseries, with tonight's episode serving as a thrilling ending wrapped in a nice, neat bow. And, admittedly, it could have been grand. And what we got -- loose threads, unanswered questions -- was arguably less great. But this is serialized TV, people. The show was renewed, based largely on the critical praise its two leads were reaping. Lewis wasn't going to get shot dead right before he flipped the switch. And I'm not about to start judging Homeland for what may or may not happen in season two.

What I'm trying to say is: I didn't hate this finale, and it could have been a lot, lot worse.

Oh, boy. But now I've gone ahead and read this interview with Howard Gordon and Alex Gansa, which includes this bit:

That's ... not good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zak chase 

Did you guys seriously think that this show was going to go into season two with Damian Lewis off the board? Yeah, Homeland could have made for a bitching miniseries, with tonight's episode serving as a thrilling ending wrapped in a nice, neat bow. And, admittedly, it could have been grand. And what we got -- loose threads, unanswered questions -- was arguably less great. But this is serialized TV, people. The show was renewed, based largely on the critical praise its two leads were reaping. Lewis wasn't going to get shot dead right before he flipped the switch. And I'm not about to start judging Homeland for what may or may not happen in season two.

 

What I'm trying to say is: I didn't hate this finale, and it could have been a lot, lot worse.

Actually it could of been a lot better, they could of run through the scenario with the daughter without the fail vest (which will be my new term for a show cop out, so and so donned their fail vest). But even the scenario of the daughter was weak, in that Brodie has been presented with that conflict all along and now all of a sudden he gets cold feet?  They could of had the VP taken to a different room to get the blood cleaned off, or even of had him be wounded. They then compound their mistake with the amnesia, sorry, 6-10 episodes of Carrie crying and almost remembering really dont sound appealing.
 

The best moments outside of the leads were the Vice President saying "Shit" to Elizabeth's corpse at his feet, and the Secretary of Defense saying "Another fuck-up" to the paper towel dispenser. I can't disagree with the criticisms here but it was tense as always leading up to the moment of waffling.

Nazir made the classic villain mistake of getting one henchman to kill another henchman, when he has a limited number of henchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

Actually it could of been a lot better, they could of run through the scenario with the daughter without the fail vest (which will be my new term for a show cop out, so and so donned their fail vest). But even the scenario of the daughter was weak, in that Brodie has been presented with that conflict all along and now all of a sudden he gets cold feet?  They could of had the VP taken to a different room to get the blood cleaned off, or even of had him be wounded.

I disagree. Had the vest just failed and that been it, that would have sucked. But, as presented, it was a device use to ratchet up the tension, nothing more. And you really think that the VP being taken to a different location would have been more dramatically effective than Lewis being talked down by his daughter, who's had a seed of doubt planted in her mind courtesy of Carrie? No fucking way.

Now this is 100 percent true. And if that happens, it'll kill the show. But for all we know, Gordon and Gansa will come to their senses and have Carrie remember everything by the end of the first hour.

BTW, I thought Nazir's plan to get Brody through the metal detector was very, very clever.

Really surprised at the hate.  I thought it was a really strong finale that managed to reset enough for next season to be recognizable as the same show, but change enough that this season's storylines didn't feel like wheel-spinning.  And as usual, Danes, Lewis and Patinkin were terrific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Really surprised at the hate.  I thought it was a really strong finale that managed to reset enough for next season to be recognizable as the same show, but change enough that this season's storylines didn't feel like wheel-spinning.  And as usual, Danes, Lewis and Patinkin were terrific.

Ditto. I thought it was electrifying, personally. 

edit - no pun intended.

I thought it was great...

Until the coda in the hospital, that is - the shock/amnesia treatment. That smacks of a poorly conceived cliffhanger shot after the series was renewed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperspace 

I thought it was great...

 

Until the coda in the hospital, that is - the shock/amnesia treatment. That smacks of a poorly conceived cliffhanger shot after the series was renewed.

My only real problem is what the shock treatment means for season two. I think it would have been much better had things gone like this:

Carrie decides to get the treatment. Saul tries to talk her out of it. She won't be swayed. A nurse pulls the bars up on her bed and starts to wheel her toward the appropriate section of the hospital. She thinks about Brody while she's being pushed down the hall. The flashbacks play. "Issa!" Carrie knows. "He knew him. Brody knew him." She bolts up in bed -- eyes wide and crackling -- and turns to the nurse. "Turn me the fuck around right now! I've got to get back to work." Credits.

Yeah I don't know how the shock therapy/ amnesia thing bodes for Season 2, but at this point it doesn't matter. Judging this season as a stand-alone whole, I found that moment to the final, sad cherry on top of the Carrie Got Fucked theme running throughout the second half of the season and nothing else really. Not any sort of gotcha cliff-hanger. Just the crashing note in Carrie's orchestra of losing. It was appropriately pathetic and haunting. 

I also don't read the ending as Brody flip-flopping again. I think he put aside his demons during the phone call with his daughter. He killed the loose cannon Walker (whom I shockingly felt quite a bit of sympathy for near the end) and he's leading on Nazir to bring him to justice down the line (or something). The way I see it, he embraces his role as a legislator and enacts change as a policy maker while trying to escape from / cover-up the events of the first season. I can easily see the rest of the series based around these actions. If the Shield has taught us anything, it's that you can get a lot of dramatic mileage from blowing your load in the first season and following those lines through to the end. 

Also, Saul is not a mole. It seems silly to have considered he was. He's just the awesome heart and soul of the series. 

AV Club sums up my feelings: 

Yeah, the amnesia card is always iffy, and may end up being a serious annoyance next year, but that's next year's problem to deal with, and it was about as plausible a scenario as I've ever seen that angle be played out (not that I know anything about actual electro-shock treatments, but at least they didn't just bonk her on the head and call it a day).

Honestly, I don't think they even needed to establish the shock treatment could result in memory loss to make it work.  I'm fine buying that she had the epiphany as the drugs kicked in, but it would be lost in the haze when she came to.  And given how thoroughly discredited Carrie has been, and that Brody didn't take his golden opportunity to blow up the guv'mint, it's not like she'll be able to convince anyone that no, seriously, this time she's super sure that he is totally a terrorist for realsies this time.  It would bother me if I felt like they had written themselves into a corner they couldn't get out of without making their characters forget stuff, but this didn't feel that way.

Thrilling and engaging, with a lot of directions, some good, some bad, that next season can go in. Having seen Game of Thrones, I was on edge during the whole bunker sequence. Yeah, I knew they weren't going to blow up Brody, but...well, wouldn't it have been great if they had? Tense as hell scene. And Lewis kills it. Absolutely, one hundred percent fucking kills it. That exchange between his daughter and him was just heartbreaking, you can see the emotional roller coaster he's going through in every inch of his face. While I know Bryan Cranson will win yet again, it's nice to see another contender up there along with him and Hamm. The daughter broke my heart, too. Just the way she kept saying 'Daddy' and 'dad' over and over again. So beautiful. She doesn't care that he came back strange, she just wants her dad back.

Yeah I'm kind of stunned at the disappointment here, I mean I know this show's not Breaking Bad, but for a moment it reached that show's level of tension.  It's kind of the restrained version of 24, and I'm fine with that.  Bunker scene was fantastic, and Danes has been a roller coaster.  I think her dealing with the aftermath of her therapy could lead to Memento levels of convoluted hijinks if we're lucky.

Oh it was great... I'm just bummed about the last 5 minutes which left a bad taste in my mouth.

So you missed the part where that was Carrie's phone that she had specifically set up to route the daughter's call through to the secret service?

Or you think that bunkers would be completely unreachable by anyone? Your criticism makes no sense.

It's really reaching to complain about episodes that haven't aired, been filmed, or even been written yet. For all you know, she'll remember in episode 1 of next season. Or not at all. But hey, you've got a head start just in case I suppose.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Really surprised at the hate.  I thought it was a really strong finale that managed to reset enough for next season to be recognizable as the same show, but change enough that this season's storylines didn't feel like wheel-spinning.  And as usual, Danes, Lewis and Patinkin were terrific.

Are you really? I expect it in every thread. Someone could make a show so good it caused spontaneous orgasms, and half the thread here would be complaints that the show didn't cuddle afterwards.

The terrorist plot to get Brody through security seemed quite clever. Brody actually flipping the switch was a good jolt (and the important part of that scene which the clucking people seem to be ignoring to focus on a realistic show not blowing up half the US government). Saul being unable to save Carrie or her job was unexpected and heartbreaking.

The net result of the season is that one 'hero' attempted to commit mass murder and the other had herself lobotomized. For anyone who thinks the show didn't amount to much, PLEASE DO NOT WATCH SEASON 2.

Sorry, I still think the fail vest is a cop out and that the amnesia card was cheap and stupid.

I think that labeling anyone who does not like something a hater and finishing with 'if you dont like it dont watch season 2' is just as silly as you accuse us 'haters' of being.

The problem I have with this show is it that it has skirted the boundry between soap opera and legitimate story all season.  For example, I really enjoyed the moral quandrey presented by Carrie's certitude that Brodie is a terrorist and the fundemental wrongness of her initial surveillance of Brodie.  Carrie subsequent romance with Brodie really took me out of the show, it reminded me I was watching a showtime series rather than something better.   The show has gone back and forth between presenting interesting characters, conflicts and issues....and cheaply wringing them for over the top emotional payoff.

I felt like in the finale, the show made its choice and devolved into soap opera complete with cheap cliff hanger (fail vest) and then fucking amnesia (which really is a cheap crutch the writers employ to rewind the plot rather than advance it). Brodies later choice to not detonate the bomb due to his daughter having a bad opinion of him could of been an interesting one, it could of naturally occured at the house when he was alone with the daughter and she could sense something was wrong. Brodie deciding not to wear the vest to the event would of been far more interesting to me, but I guess most viewers prefer the exciting will he or wont he press the button scene that was dragged on for 20 minutes.

I get the impression that the writers came up with a premise rather than having a real story to tell. They have extremely talented performers that are able to sell it, so that makes it watchable, but without Danes, Lewis and Patinkin really delivering, this show would be very easy to turn off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

Sorry, I still think the fail vest is a cop out and that the amnesia card was cheap and stupid.

 

I think that labeling anyone who does not like something a hater and finishing with 'if you dont like it dont watch season 2' is just as silly as you accuse us 'haters' of being.

 

The problem I have with this show is it that it has skirted the boundry between soap opera and legitimate story all season.  For example, I really enjoyed the moral quandrey presented by Carrie's certitude that Brodie is a terrorist and the fundemental wrongness of her initial surveillance of Brodie.  Carrie subsequent romance with Brodie really took me out of the show, it reminded me I was watching a showtime series rather than something better.   The show has gone back and forth between presenting interesting characters, conflicts and issues....and cheaply wringing them for over the top emotional payoff.

 

I felt like in the finale, the show made its choice and devolved into soap opera complete with cheap cliff hanger (fail vest) and then fucking amnesia (which really is a cheap crutch the writers employ to rewind the plot rather than advance it). Brodies later choice to not detonate the bomb due to his daughter having a bad opinion of him could of been an interesting one, it could of naturally occured at the house when he was alone with the daughter and she could sense something was wrong. Brodie deciding not to wear the vest to the event would of been far more interesting to me, but I guess most viewers prefer the exciting will he or wont he press the button scene that was dragged on for 20 minutes.

 

I get the impression that the writers came up with a premise rather than having a real story to tell. They have extremely talented performers that are able to sell it, so that makes it watchable, but without Danes, Lewis and Patinkin really delivering, this show would be very easy to turn off.

I agree with you on principle that amnesia is cheap and lazy and should basically be off limits to any serious writer, and that having Brody not blow up because of mechanical failure would be a cop out.  However, as you point out, it wasn't the mechanical failure that stopped him from going through with it, it was his relationship with his daughter (and I should add that the girl who played Dana did a pretty fantastic job in the finale as well as the core trio).  The vest not working initially only served to draw out the tension of the scene, which seems to have put you out for being melodramatic, but personally I want a bit of drama and suspense in my dramatic thriller.  It all hinged on the decisions of the characters.

The amnesia thing could end up sinking the second season, but here it's not a dealbreaker.  If they had drug her off kicking and screaming about how Brody knew the kid and then they shocked it out of her, that would be different, but its not as big a deal to walk back a momentary epiphany under the influence of anesthesia.

Yeah Schwartz, I guess it really comes down to personal taste. I know my wife and most of my friends find the stuff I like to be boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

 

I get the impression that the writers came up with a premise rather than having a real story to tell.

What I'm suggesting is that if I had such a negative reaction to a show, I wouldn't subject myself to more of it. 

I can't say I even understand where the quoted opinion comes from, but it sure doesn't sound like there's any chance you get anything positive out of a season 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 


I agree with you on principle that amnesia is cheap and lazy and should basically be off limits to any serious writer, and that having Brody not blow up because of mechanical failure would be a cop out.  However, as you point out, it wasn't the mechanical failure that stopped him from going through with it, it was his relationship with his daughter (and I should add that the girl who played Dana did a pretty fantastic job in the finale as well as the core trio).  The vest not working initially only served to draw out the tension of the scene, which seems to have put you out for being melodramatic, but personally I want a bit of drama and suspense in my dramatic thriller.  It all hinged on the decisions of the characters.

 

The amnesia thing could end up sinking the second season, but here it's not a dealbreaker.  If they had drug her off kicking and screaming about how Brody knew the kid and then they shocked it out of her, that would be different, but its not as big a deal to walk back a momentary epiphany under the influence of anesthesia.

The vest malfunctioning made sense after we saw him get manhandled by secret service while ushering him to safety. And as you said, it had no impact on the plot. Yet it had huge impact on the character, as along with the Walker resolution, it cemented Brody's resolve. When your main character attempts to slaughter a room full of people, calling that 'nothing' is just wrong.

As for the amnesia, you've nailed it. The amnesia taking away a detail that she only knew -because- of the process that caused her amnesia is hardly a major offense.

Anyways... I thought it was a pretty terrific finale. The hero is left in ruins, while the villains are in a stronger position than ever.

In the best "THIS IS NOT 24" turn... the mole was a complete non-factor and may not even exist. If this were 24, the CIA would've been blown up twice!

I believe the Emmys are judged based on a single episode. Assuming Homeland submits this episode for Damian Lewis, I'd give him an excellent chance to beat out Cranston this year.

Hey, at least they waited a whole season to play the amnesia card instead of just a third of it like in 24.

In terms of shows running today, I guess I'll have to classify Homeland as closer to Sons Of Anarchy than Boardwalk Empire and Breaking Bad. I'll keep watching because the actors are terrific but it's a shame seeing such lack of resolve.

Loved the finale but didn't like that they felt the need to have a cliffhanger at all.  My initial reaction to the Amnesia that is surely to come is negative but if I can watch 6 episodes of SOA chasing a child in Ireland to get to the good stuff I can watch the 2nd series of this.  An incredibly strong series 1 I hope the quality continues in the next series.

I like to think Saul setting off the metal detector was the writers' way of teasing the people behind that theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognizant 

I like to think Saul setting off the metal detector was the writers' way of teasing the people behind that theory.

I loved that little detail. That combined with Saul sicking the dogs on Carrie had me wondering... but I'm glad they didn't go there. Without Patinkin, I'm not sure this show would be as great as it is. I love his character.

I enjoyed the finale. I half expected Brody to blow himself up in the shitter. The tension was there at least.

The amnesia bit made me cringe. Mostly because of the expository dialogue from Saul, moments before. "What about the memory loss?" Cue realization of important detail. Cue memory loss. Argh. As long as they don't spend half of next season with Carrie starting over, I'll let it slide.

If they use it as a magic bullet to selectively wipe away facts for their own convenience, I'll be disappointed. But that's next season. For this season, memory loss is a legitimate side-effect for a known treatment for an ailment we've known she has all season. It's not her getting hit on the head and wandering the streets while terrorists hunt her (cough, 24, cough).

For me the important part was that she was so broken down by everything that she would voluntarily take that rather severe treatment in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight  It's not her getting hit on the head and wandering the streets while terrorists hunt her (cough, 24, cough).
 

Wow, did they really do this?  Makes me kind of glad I never got around to watching 24.

And that was in the first season of 24! I think we were a more forgiving lot of TV watchers back then. The quality of cable television this past decade has spoiled the shit out of us. 

The ending was a reset button,but it doesn't wipe out an excellent season of television. I don't agree that it's Breaking Bad quality, but I think it's fair to call it the best season of TV Showtime's ever produced, although maybe it just seems Peabody-worthy because I watched it after Dexter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

Wow, did they really do this?  Makes me kind of glad I never got around to watching 24.

And that's not the worst thing 24 ever did. Two words: cougar trap.

Anyone who watched the show will forever know that reference, and groan/guffaw out of reflex.

I don't think this was really a reset at all.  Okay, Brody is back to being a sleeper, but he's in a vastly different position and seems to have passed the point where carrying out an attack himself is a viable option.  But more significantly, our relationship to him as the audience has fundamentally changed from where it was before the finale, as we know what happened to him and understand his perspective better. 

Carrie is still the only one who suspects him, but she overplayed her hand hard enough to expose her disorder and get herself booted from intelligence circles.  Plus the way circumstances played out all but guarantee that not even Saul or Virgil will entertain her suspicions about Brody the second time around.  Plus Dana has seen and heard enough to start wondering about her dad's strange behavior.  All in all, next season we may be seeing the same game, but the positions of the main players have been altered sufficiently that it doesn't feel like nothing's happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight 

 

And that's not the worst thing 24 ever did. Two words: cougar trap.

 

Anyone who watched the show will forever know that reference, and groan/guffaw out of reflex.

I watched right up until that point.

Just saw the finale, really liked this show this season.  Its funny the thing worring me isn't so much the "will she remember" but, if she does would anyone listen anyway.

I mean I'm pretty sure more than one person could be named Aza (do I have the name right?).  Brody could easy say "he was a fellow prisioner who was killed a week after I first meet him" or "he was a guard who showed me mercy and died for it" or some story.  And because of Carrie's actions she wouldn't be listened to anyway.  What are they going to do, have her working outside the agency for a full season with Billings helping her?  She already accused Brody twice of being a terrorist, I doubt they go with "well third time is the charm".

The name is Issa. I only know that from reading other sites. I wonder if it's a reference to this guy.

"Reset" probably isn't the right word. I primarily meant that they used TV-mandated contrivance to keep the status quo, at least cast-wise. I definitely think the characters could go in a multitude of directions.

Everyone is great, but Danes deserves AWARDS. Loved her and her character. Hope she makes her way, somehow, back into the CIA. She has to, right? Pretty great of the show to have her, with absolutely everything against her, save the day. And she'll never know. Anyway, I thought the finale was fairly excellent. It would have been interesting if the show had allowed Brody to pull off the suicide bombing. But I'm certainly happy to have Lewis around next season. As for her head zap at the end. You have to at least appreciate her decision to go to that extreme. And I dug all of the scenes building up to it. But, yeah, I'd be disappointed if she is conveniently all forgetty next season.

I said it before, Danes and Lewis and Patinkin are phenomenal. Danes especially. It's just that I feel that there were many other more interesting ways to have them all along for the next season than the disconnected wire ex machina.

The wire thing didn't bother me that much, but having that AND the daughter's call stop him from going through with it were definitely a stretch, and probably would have annoyed me more if Lewis' performance hadn't been so good during that sequence.

What's the deal with the SD card video? Are we to assume he copped it off walker?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Bell 

What's the deal with the SD card video? Are we to assume he copped it off walker?

 

A potentially interesting plot thread for next season. That card represents the proof Carrie needs.

My guess is that Abu Nazir has the card and he's keeping it as blackmail material.   Also Carrie won't be back in the CIA but will probably be working with Saul in an unofficial capacity as an advisor.   He knows that despite her mental illness, that she's got the goods.   After all, she pieced together the motive of Nazir when she was off her meds.   Also I think  the catching Brody plot is going to take a back seat while another unrelated terrorist plot (either foriegn or domestic) brewing will take center stage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

I said it before, Danes and Lewis and Patinkin are phenomenal. Danes especially. It's just that I feel that there were many other more interesting ways to have them all along for the next season than the disconnected wire ex machina.

Odd usage of that cliche'd term. If you remove the bomb malfunctioning, you lose NOTHING plot-wise. The writers would just have jumped straight to the daughter calling him. Nothing changes. Nil ex machina. :)

Except that you lose the -extremely- important character moment of him actually flipping the switch. And you lose a lot very good scenes in between his first and second attempts.

dynamotv has the most likely course for next season, as Saul seemed pretty adamant that Carrie was done at the CIA, with the show avoiding the reset I expected: Saul blackmailing them to keep her aboard.

Yeah there's no way Carrie goes back to the CIA. I've been watching the show again with a friend and she mentions in the first episode that she's already been benched to what's essentially desk duty, anything that happened with regards to Brody gets her kicked out, even Saul mentions it to her sister that it's likely she won't be back. What's also neat about watching it again is watching Lewis' performance and seeing things a little differently - his meeting the VP in the first episode for example (Also a nice touch, at the BBQ he has he tells a story about meeting the VP and thinking he doesn't even know the guys name). I wonder just how much he knew going in. 

Here's where I stand on the Amnesia. I don't see it as a lazy plot device at all - but it is the ticking bomb that's going to set Carrie off again. Furthermore, who's to say what role it plays. The latter half of the season was about slowly fucking Carrie over, and that was just the final nail in that coffin. She goes for that therapy because she realises she's crazy, everyone (Including her) thinks Brody is innocent now, but they need to plant that moment of doubt in her because otherwise there won't be a Season 2. As with everything this show has done the decision is rooted in character. I don't think we're going to get six episodes of "There's something I really want to remember but I can't" but instead we'll have Carrie wrestling with the fact that she might have some information on Brody. That, to me, is more interesting than a Kim Bauer amnesia subplot. 

I have to disagree with the poster calling it a soap opera too, with regards to Brody and Carrie. The show actually does a very good job of explaining why these 2 characters would be drawn to one another. Their sex scene is a great example of that. Plus their weekend away leads to one of the best twists in the show (Where Carrie and Brody come clean about everything). 

As for the bomb failing to go off. Again it's important that we see that Brody was absolutely willing to go through with his mission. Further to that are the scenes post-bunker where he's visibly pissed off with the fact that he couldn't do it. As much as Season 2 will be about the conflict that Carrie has, it'll be about the conflict that Brody has. Talking to his daughter put a human face on what he was about to do, and the consequences of his actions. I have no doubt he's willing to commit to his cause, but it'll be a lot harder from here on out. 

The thing I love about Brodie's daughter being the reason he doesn't blow himself out of S2 is that Carrie was right - Dana is his Achilles Heel.

The AV Club's best feature returns.  Very interested to see what Gansa has to say about the finale, deus ex machinas and amnesia.