STEVE JOBS HAS PASSED AWAY - Page 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 

This is for every single person not named Princess Kate who posted a comment in this thread.  Kate's comments are not the problem.   Your non-stop back and forth with her bemoaning her posts have ruined more threads than I can count, and I am fucking sick of it.  Put her on ignore if you don't like her and leave it at that.  If you feel an uncontrollable urge to speak to her, do it via private message.  The rest of us don't want to see decent threads ruined by this shit.  A thread meant to be a discussion about Steve Jobs has degenerated into this fucked-up bullshit because of your never-failing desire to hop into the bear trap and complain when it snaps shut.    

 

Now shut the fuck up and lock this motherfucking thread. 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMulder 

But she is the reason why it degenerated into nothing. Everybody except her came into the thread with something real to say, but her responses alone mitigated everyone else's attempts to say anything. This is how Kate swallows up entire threads -- her idiocy is so tremendous that its maw just can't be avoided.

 

It doesn't make any sense to blame everyone else in the thread for ruining it when Kate is clearly and obviously to blame. Unless she's here to test everyone, in which case I personally will own up to failing the test a hundred times over if it means her disappearance.

You're new here, JMulder so just FYI: off topic complaining is against the NEW RULES. Technically, it's an offense that merits a time out. If I have broken the terms of service you can contact a mod. If I am expressing opinions you don't like, you cannot derail a thread to complain about me as an individual

Put me on ignore. Problem solved. It's astoundingly easy. Derailing, which you are now doing, is not OK

So anyway, this Jobs guy...

Ok well, first of all the degeneration of this thread isn't an affront to the memory of Steve Jobs. Even if it was, there are more than enough virtual shrines and half-assed eulogies going around to compensate for it. The issue at hand is that even putting Kate on ignore doesn't change anything, because there will always be people who don't have her on ignore who can't avoid responding to her posts. And then the thread gets derailed.

And that's totally understandable --  I mean, should literally everyone on the boards put Kate on ignore? Or should she get banned? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMulder 

Ok well, first of all the degeneration of this thread isn't an affront to the memory of Steve Jobs. Even if it was, there are more than enough virtual shrines and half-assed eulogies going around to compensate for it. The issue at hand is that even putting Kate on ignore doesn't change anything, because there will always be people who don't have her on ignore who can't avoid responding to her posts. And then the thread gets derailed.

 

And that's totally understandable --  I mean, should literally everyone on the boards put Kate on ignore? Or should she get banned? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

The mods have made the rules clear. It is easy to put someone on ignore, and people won't be banned unless they break the rules, which I have not. You however are currently breaking the rules with this off topic garbage

This is Steve's thread. Put me on ignore and grow up. For crying out loud

I'm still waiting for the Mac-nuts to respond to me calling Steve Jobs Ronald McDonald. 

*Rolls up sleeves, grits teeth*

Whoseattem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

I'm still waiting for the Mac-nuts to respond to me calling Steve Jobs Ronald McDonald. 

 

*Rolls up sleeves, grits teeth*

Whoseattem?

Everyone is entitled to their own take, and I found what you had to say about Jobs as a man personifying the brand to be quite interesting. So no worries

Kate, you're terrible at boxing. Throw me a punch, it's called discussion. Go on, I'll put my hands behind my back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Kate, you're terrible at boxing. Throw me a punch, it's called discussion. Go on, I'll put my hands behind my back.

I don't know if Ronald is the right comparison (since clowns and fast food are only vaguely connected), but Jobs was fastidious about image management, and you're right that the image he sought to project of himself was how he desired the APPLE brand to be seen. His life was carefully stage crafted, and that's what makes him such a fascinating figure. For the record, I don't think that's a bad thing. Leaders have done this through out history, but it's worth discussing as part of his greater legacy

Thanks for sharing 

::sneak attack counter punch::

Edit: in some ways, the DYSON guy from the vacuum commercials (I believe he holds a leadership position in the company) always struck me as a very Jobs like figure, in terms of how he talked about his products and his company. If you wanted to pick a slightly goofy Jobs analogy, that might be my choice

Do you not find that disturbing and manipulative? As obviously you've been drawn into it. 

The image sold is one that I find rather scary. People being aware of that manipulation, yet still falling into it shows a level of brainwashing that would make Scientologists proud.

The fact he was said to be a Buddhist is like some ironic joke on you all. Or he was completely delusional. Take your pick.

This is getting to be a theme lately. Ignore list, people. If you don't stop feeding her, I'll lock this.

Whats the difference between feeding and discussing? Because I'm just trying to use this thread to discuss with the people in it. I'm not going to just ignore somebody because they're a bit difficult. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Do you not find that disturbing and manipulative? As obviously you've been drawn into it. 

 

The image sold is one that I find rather scary. People being aware of that manipulation, yet still falling into it shows a level of brainwashing that would make Scientologists proud.

 

The fact he was said to be a Buddhist is like some ironic joke on you all. Or he was completely delusional. Take your pick.

 

 

Hey Sean,

Why would I find it disturbing? I believe in his values and his company, and so I am only grateful he was such a master at wielding his image in Apple's favor. In politics, in business, in everyday life, people all do this to one degree or another; project to the public their ideal self. That Jobs had a special gift for this, that he was able to do it for years on end with utter discipline, is exactly what allowed Apple to achieve what it has. If Jobs had nefarious ambitions, then obviously it would have been a different matter, but the man only built computers, not gulags

You're insisting on buying into the 'Philosophy' of Apple. However, my point is its all bullshit to make you think that. 

Its all a fabrication to trick idiots into blindly believing there is something deeper behind it, other than, say, selling a computer. 

Don't you feel in the least be silly for that? Every perception you have of Apple and Steve Jobs is carefully managed, none of it's true.

You're a strange paradox, because you seem to just follow along with their plan and act like their ideal, worshiping consumer, yet, you're aware you're being manipulated and don't mind, in fact, you even respect him for being able to bend your will so much towards buying, what is, on the whole, useless consumer electronics.

Crikey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Whats the difference between feeding and discussing? Because I'm just trying to use this thread to discuss with the people in it. I'm not going to just ignore somebody because they're a bit difficult. 

Because a discussion must be treated as such by both parties. Trust me when I say this, you're better off using the ignore function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 
 It's the cult of Apple I hate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Kate 
Deep down, in my very core, these are my feelings on Jobs and Gates, and I cannot see the purpose in sugar coating it.

Hmmmmm....
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 

This is for every single person not named Princess Kate who posted a comment in this thread.  Kate's comments are not the problem.   Your non-stop back and forth with her bemoaning her posts have ruined more threads than I can count, and I am fucking sick of it.  Put her on ignore if you don't like her and leave it at that.  If you feel an uncontrollable urge to speak to her, do it via private message.  The rest of us don't want to see decent threads ruined by this shit.  A thread meant to be a discussion about Steve Jobs has degenerated into this fucked-up bullshit because of your never-failing desire to hop into the bear trap and complain when it snaps shut. 

 

PK is a rapist.  The other Chewers are all short skirt wearing whores.  Got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 

 

Now shut the fuck up and lock this motherfucking thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

This is getting to be a theme lately. Ignore list, people. If you don't stop feeding her, I'll lock this.

So we lock the PK thread that was the safety valve to keep this from happening in individual threads yet no one understands why the individual threads go south.  Then we begin locking those threads.  Eventually there are no more threads because PK has infected them all. 

The goal of chemotherapy, as any good oncologist will tell you, is to kill the cancer before you kill the patient.  Seems like the patient is being forgotten about here.

Forget it I give up.

He's also an inventor, more so that Jobs ever was. Almost no vacuum cleaners use bags anymore. That's pretty impressive. 

Again, Jobs didn't invent the computer. Technically, the advancement that Apple made with the Apple II were made by Xerox who developed the first "Desktop" computer.

Was thinking about this last night and ALL I could come up with that's comparable as a figure head was Walt Disney.

OK, Disney bears his name but he has the same hallmarks, he was the charismatic man that pushed it, he was credited with changing animation and the motion picture industry (although he had to be trained to draw even a vaguely Mickey Mouse, he was greatly mourned on his death.

He also had an unsavoury darker side to him.

I honestly can't think of anyone other than a head of state that so represents the product they push.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Bain 

Was thinking about this last night and ALL I could come up with that's comparable as a figure head was Walt Disney.

OK, Disney bears his name but he has the same hallmarks, he was the charismatic man that pushed it, he was credited with changing animation and the motion picture industry (although he had to be trained to draw even a vaguely Mickey Mouse, he was greatly mourned on his death.

He also had an unsavoury darker side to him.

 

I honestly can't think of anyone other than a head of state that so represents the product they push.

This is a pretty decent comparison. Trying to dismiss Jobs for not personally handling the nuts and bolts of the designs and technological innovations is missing the point, and basically implies that no one in a leadership position is worth as much as the people they lead. His contribution was more in establishing a clearly defined attitude and philosophy towards technology, what it should be and how it could fit in people's lives. Of course Ives and co deserve plenty of credit for their designs and concepts, but ultimately if Jobs and Apple hadn't made the conscious decision to make attractive aesthetics and ease-of-use a priority in their products, starting from the very beginning, the consumer electronics landscape would most likely look very different right now.

The major 'i' products often weren't safe bets at all, quite often going against the grain of what their competitors were up to, but because they were confidently presented to the world in such fully-conceived forms and with such consistency it became more and more easy for people to get on board. Downplaying all that as just 'being good at marketing' is like saying a sports team manager who turned a struggling team around to win the championship was just 'good at organizing' and everyone should stop making a fuss cos it's the players who do all the work, right?

It'll be interesting to see if Apple will still manage to innovate and keep hold of the zietgeist without one decisive voice to rally behind, or if they'll mostly rest on their laurels from this point.

Just realised the irony of Jobs also having the major market share of Disney after the Pixar purchase.

Maybe Walts head wasn't frozen in a box as rumoured, but his brain put into the body of the young Steve Jobs....

Jobs was a businessman and knew what he had to do, build an identity, craft it and sell it as something other people want. 

His image was carefully handled, to the outside world they only knew what he wanted them to know. He might as well as been an entirely made up character, like Ronald McDonald, because anything you know of Jobs, anything you think you know of Jobs was processed and worked on by every aspect of the company, as much as the iPod or iPad.

You're not buying into Steve Jobs personal vision, you're buying into the Apple vision, which is made up of lots of businessmen who are likely at odds with the outlook on life, of much of their consumers. 

The trick was making you think Jobs was a god.

Basically he was the Wizard of Oz.

As with most people of this kind of status he probably is overhyped to some degree, but your own determination to strip all significance and personal vision from this guy doesn't seem a whole lot more realistic, and also doesn't seem in keeping with fact that by most accounts (including those of people who didn't like him) he was a ridiculously demanding control freak and obsessive perfectionist. Comparing the trajectory of Apple in the years with Jobs at the helm against the years where he wasn't kind of speaks for itself, I would've thought.

And for the record the one Apple product I currently own is a five year old iPod I bought second hand, so I'm not coming at this as an Appleite, just the perspective of someone who suspects Jobs probably was, in fact, a quite massively influential individual.

I'm not denying that he was important in the company, he obviously was, but the public persona that the Apple fans are bleeding their hearts over was probably about as real as a food mascot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

He's also an inventor, more so that Jobs ever was. Almost no vacuum cleaners use bags anymore. That's pretty impressive. 

 

Again, Jobs didn't invent the computer. Technically, the advancement that Apple made with the Apple II were made by Xerox who developed the first "Desktop" computer.

Steve Jobs is listed as inventor or co inventor on 317 patents

Well, if that's the case, I take back what I said. I still think he and Apple have you all on hook though.

Perhaps eventually, there's going to be a 'Silver Shamrock' type commercial that will activate you all for some boring, long winded purpose.

I've worked in patents. Co-inventor credits - even inventor credits - are a lot like executive producer credits. You might get one just for naming the product or employing the guy who did the work.

Interesting article comparing Jobs to a sculptor here:

http://www.macnn.com/articles/11/10/05/originally.published.when.jobs.resigned/

Incidentally, in the interest of starting a pissing contest, Dyson has more than 500 patents, usually as sole patent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glisten 

 

Interesting article comparing Jobs to a sculptor here:

 

http://www.macnn.com/articles/11/10/05/originally.published.when.jobs.resigned/

 

A fascinating article. Thank you so much for sharing. I am excited to learn Jobs was so heavily involved in the invention of glass technologies, as well as to hear the news that the APPLESHIP will be constructed using his unique glass concepts. I get the feeling that upon completion it's remarkable superstructure will become a pilgrimage for the APPLE faithful. The conceptual art I've seen is simply stunning. A vision for the future, one that has the potential to save this planet

You look at the old HP headquarters they took over, and then APPLE's plans for that same space, and then you must ask yourself whether you'd rather live in a PC landscape or a MacWorld
 

HP (all parking lots and asphalt, no animals remain and plants are long gone)

AFTER APPLE

Arcology technologies like we see here pioneered by Jobs and APPLE INC may well be humanity's last best hope for heading off the coming environmental apocalypse brought on by our continued degradation of the biosphere

Eh, I sort of prefer to broom up my debris anyway

APPLE ANNOUNCES MEMORIAL SERVICE FOR STEVE JOBS

Meanwhile, public memorials continue to dominate APPLE storefronts around the world:

I was reading the TIME MAGAZINE issue about Mr Jobs, and it had some good pieces about him and his legacy. "INVENTOR OF THE FUTURE", he's now being called

According to TIME writer Walter Isaacson, Jobs felt his quest to bring Apple Tech to the world was nothing less than a "matter of righteousness"

Consider this excerpt:

This man continues to awe me in a way no human alive on the planet today can

One more excerpt (and then you should really just go to TIME.com to read the rest):

Above photo taken two days ago, more than a week after Jobs death

TIME posits that Jobs will be remembered centuries into the future, which is a statement I've made myself many times

There have been those in this thread who suggest Jobs didn't live by his own philosophy, that his crusade was not a "matter of righteousness"

I would point them to this excerpt from Jobs 2010 private TOWN HALL for APPLE employees:

It is clear that to Jobs, those who sought to establish themselves as rivals to APPLE were not merely competitors, but a literal force of evil, one to be defeated for the good of all. There is now speculation that in the future, APPLE intends Siri to serve as the search engine of choice for the public, to take the war to Google on their own turf

And to close on a lighter, but no less awesome note (again from TIME)..

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

 

 

McNooj, what are you quoting from?

Community

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

Community

Thanks

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/10/stallman_glad_jobs_gone/

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Jobs was a businessman and knew what he had to do, build an identity, craft it and sell it as something other people want. 

 

His image was carefully handled, to the outside world they only knew what he wanted them to know. He might as well as been an entirely made up character, like Ronald McDonald, because anything you know of Jobs, anything you think you know of Jobs was processed and worked on by every aspect of the company, as much as the iPod or iPad.

 

You're not buying into Steve Jobs personal vision, you're buying into the Apple vision, which is made up of lots of businessmen who are likely at odds with the outlook on life, of much of their consumers. 

The trick was making you think Jobs was a god.

 

Basically he was the Wizard of Oz.

I don't agree with this at all.  His image wasn't carefully handled- it wasn't handled at all because Apple didn't talk about Steve Jobs.  And mostly Steve Jobs didn't talk about Steve Jobs either.  The only way I saw the man was how he presented himself in Keynotes.  And on that stage I've seen him happy, serious, insightful, dismissive, condescending, upset and short-tempered.  If Jobs image was as carefully managed as you think it was, Apple would have never let him on stage.  In fact, I think if you talk to most people who own Apple products who knew anything about Steve Jobs reputation as a person- the last thing they'd want to do is have a conversation with him.  He didn't like small talk from what I gather, and if he wasn't quickly interested in what you were saying, basically walked away.  I can admire the accomplishments of what Steve Jobs company did in the last 15 years.  Even more so if you know just how bad things were when he came back.  But I have no personal investment in the man.  I wish he was still around because I would loved to have seen where else he could have taken the company.

I don't doubt that there are Apple zealots out there, but if you look at Apple's growth over even the last 5 years, we're way past the point where you can say that Apple's products are succeeding on marketing to the "faithful" alone.  These tropes about people who buy Apple's products being brainwashed zombies are as tired as the one about Andriod fans being computer nerds who only steal software.

I buy Apple products because they work for me, and make it easier to do my job.  Whatever Steve's involvement in making that happen is the credit that I give him-- and that's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/10/stallman_glad_jobs_gone/

 

 

 

Stallman is an idiot.  Don't make me prove it by linking to the video where as he's giving a talk on stage he takes off his shoe and starts picking at his feet- then eats what he finds!

The thing about the walled garden analogy is that it makes no sense if I can move to another platform at any time, or the fact that I can put iTunes music onto non-Apple mp3 players, or that I can run iTunes on Windows machines, or that I can put non-iTunes music on my Apple products, or that I can plug non-Apple hardware into my mac.  It's a weird fantasy that people who dislike Apple have concocted to make themselves feel better about not owning a mac, or something... I dunno.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

I don't agree with this at all.  His image wasn't carefully handled- it wasn't handled at all because Apple didn't talk about Steve Jobs.  And mostly Steve Jobs didn't talk about Steve Jobs either. 

So true. I loved his famous statement on his health. A single slide with his blood pressure:

With that said, the careful control of information IS information management. Steve crafted his image by controlling every last detail of what the public knew about him

I conduct myself the same way, so I'm able to celebrate him for the same qualities that may turn others off. My mom gets annoyed with it but if you're talking at me and I can sense where you're going or have already heard enough to know what my response will be, I basically cut you off rather than listen to you needlessly draw out your point. I admire Steve for feeling, like I do, that anything else is only wasting your time and theirs

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

Stallman is an idiot.  Don't make me prove it by linking to the video where as he's giving a talk on stage he takes off his shoe and starts picking at his feet- then eats what he finds!

What.. the.. eff......

Exactly. You've summed up my own thoughts. The fact is that there are plenty of people who due to finances, circumstances or habit are unable or unwilling to make the jump to Mac. Their mind has been forced develop a coping technique in order to explain to themselves that somehow they don't really want the shiny tech that "just works". They need to tell themselves that APPLE users are not actually happy, healthy people who have found technology that improves their lives and is better than everything else out there, otherwise they'd be miserable! :(

EDIT: Not to harp on it, but it's what I was saying about Gates before. At some basic level, everyone wants to be an Apple person, it's just that not everyone can be. Some are destined to be outsiders,  and so need to believe the everyone else are all "zombies" in order to get through their day

PS Of course some people can make peace with the fact they can't afford a Mac but still support the company. I'm one of those people. I can't afford an iMac right now as much as I'd like one, but I don't cope by pretending they're somehow not amazing

(Obviously just MHO)

I don't agree with that.  There are just as many reasons for someone not to want to use Apple gear as there are for those that do.  Some of them are technical, some of them are financial, and some of them are social.

The only type of person that bothers me is the one who wouldn't never buy an Apple product.  Not for what it is or isn't, but simply because they think that it's only for people trying to be "cool" or "trendy" or whateverthefuck, and they don't want to be associated with that brand.  And that's nuts.  If you're personal identity is that tied up with the products that you buy, you've got other problems.

From my perspective, the whole meme of who an Apple customer is has been built up by Apple's competitors.  Apple's general marketing principal has always been, "it just works", and that has somehow been transformed by competitors as "Vain douchebags".  I don't feel superior to someone using a PC- I could give two shits what someone else is using, I just want a product that works well for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

I don't agree with that.  There are just as many reasons for someone not to want to use Apple gear as there are for those that do.  Some of them are technical, some of them are financial, and some of them are social.

 

The only type of person that bothers me is the one who wouldn't never buy an Apple product.  Not for what it is or isn't, but simply because they think that it's only for people trying to be "cool" or "trendy" or whateverthefuck, and they don't want to be associated with that brand.  And that's nuts.  If you're personal identity is that tied up with the products that you buy, you've got other problems.

 

From my perspective, the whole meme of who an Apple customer is has been built up by Apple's competitors.  Apple's general marketing principal has always been, "it just works", and that has somehow been transformed by competitors as "Vain douchebags".  I don't feel superior to someone using a PC- I could give two shits what someone else is using, I just want a product that works well for me.

Fair enough, I respect your point of view. I agree with much of what you say here, BTW
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

The only type of person that bothers me is the one who wouldn't never buy an Apple product.  

 

Why would that bother you?

An Apple product has never ever felt to me like something I needed. Ever. For example I find the ios type of design, this messy grid of icons all splayed willy nilly, bordering on garish. And for all of Apple's much admired industrial design I have never felt comfortable handling the iphone 4. As for "It just works" it only applies to people who haven't touched a PC since Windows ME. I work with computers for a living. Both Windows PCs and Apples. They both have the exact same amount of breakdowns, random bullshit and stupid, user confusing design decisions per user.

And there are ideological reasons. I do not want a central authority telling me what I can and can't do with the device I paid money to buy. What? You don't want this application on your OS because you decided you're not getting a big enough cut of the money I pay them for what they do? Fuck you, I'm out. Your new OS breaks my perfectly working up until yesterday device? Fuck you, I'm out.

It doesn't bother me that people don't buy Apple products.  It only bothers me that people wouldn't buy them for reasons other than usability- i.e. someone wouldn't buy and Apple product just because it's an Apple product.  I thought I made that perfectly clear, but obviously not.

"Messy grid of icons..." what other mobile interface is there?  Android and PalmOS both share the exact same basic layout- the method of multi-tasking (and up to iOS5, notifications) seems the primary differentiator.  Only WindowsPhone7 gets points for anything discernibly different.

As for reliability, obviously you have your experience, but it's certainly not mine.  I can count on one hand the number of hours in the last 10 years I've lost to system errors, and I can count on zero hands the hours I've spent worry about antivirus software or malware.  And beyond myself, both my parents and my uncle have moved over to Macs, and I never hear from them about tech support since they made the switch.  Yet I see my friends on Facebook constantly complaining about their Windows PC.  So the idea that Macs are more reliable and easy to maintain doesn't read as spin to me.

As for your ideological reasons, I hear you.  I went through this big argument last year about whether Apple was justified in charging a percentage of inApp purchases.  My personal feeling is that they do deserve a cut for curating and managing the store through which other business make money.  If a business doesn't need the exposure or marketing that the AppStore provides, then you can just use their web-facing store via Safari.  But NONE of the major players have left.  Apple backed off on some points and everyone is playing nicely now.  So what's the problem?

As for new OS breaking devices- what are you referring to?  iOS4 on iPhone 3G?

If you've had bad product experiences with Apple, then that's one thing.  But a blind anti-Apple stance is what annoys me, as it irks me about someone being dismissive about anything without having used it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

From my perspective, the whole meme of who an Apple customer is has been built up by Apple's competitors.  Apple's general marketing principal has always been, "it just works", and that has somehow been transformed by competitors as "Vain douchebags".

I'm sorry have you read any of the posts in this thread by PK?  Are you seriously trying to say that MS and now Google have shaped and are shaping my opinion of Apple users as cultists when nearly everyone of them I encounter acts almost exactly like her?  I will grant you that in meatspace the ones I know are significantly less creepy but they are no less douchey about their insistence on Apple being the superior platform in all respects when, as stelios rightly points out, for the past ten years everything that once made Macs great has been outdone in most every aspect of computing. 

And funnily enough it hasn't taken nearly as long for Google to outdo Apple in the smartphone arena.  The meteoric rise of Android vs. iOS compared to the sloth-like overtaking of Windows is probably to blame for much of the patent trolling and outright anti-capitalist agenda Apple has taken, especially against Samsung, of late.

*EDIT*  As to new iOS breaking devices, I have been reading plenty of stories of iOS5 crippling phones(4's) and 1st gen iPads.  iCloud doesn't seem to playing well with any devices and many, many people are talking about their iPad2 data being completely lost.

There's fundamentalists for everything, but I find it tough to believe that everyone you encounter is a die-hard mac-mac.  If you bought one 15 years ago you almost had to be, but these days they're far in the minority.  And they're embarrassing for everyone.  The only time I ever recommend Macs to people is if they're clearly having issues with their Windows experience.  I've done that several times, and those that decided to try and make the switch have thanked me for it.  But there's lot of people for whom Windows is the better choice, and I'd be the last person to tell them they're doing something wrong.

But regarding my point about MS or Google stoking the fires of Apple generalizations- I'd say absolutely.  Many of MS's recent TV campaigns have been direct defensive campaigns against Macs.  The laptop hunter ads specifically.  Which makes no sense.  When does the market leader by a WIDE margin worry about the 10% they don't have.

Google has the marketshare it has because it was able to swoop in and take  WinMobile AND Symbian's position in the marketplace as being the defacto mobile OSs.  Andriod is on everything from high end smartphones to $0 feature phones- and LOTS of them.   Andriod legitimately has it's advantages, and it's fans; but much of it's raw marketshare lays with that bottom end, with people who may not even know what OS their phone is running- it's just the phone the sales rep at Verizon or Sprint sold them.  So it's no surprise they have more raw marketshare than Apple, but just like in the PC business Apple never wanted to be the commodity player.  Though it will be interesting to see what happens with Apple leaving the iPhone 3GS in this year's lineup as a $0 with contract phone.  But let's make one thing clear, if you look at the numbers, Andriod is eating marketshare from WindowsMobile, RIM and Symbian-- everyone BUT Apple.

And I'm sorry, but if you want to paint Apple's gain in marketshare in the PC business from 4% 5 years ago to 13% today [not counting iPads] as anything but a resounding success, I don't understand how you measure success.  Especially when Apple's part of the market is the high end one-  where all the money is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm 

*EDIT*  As to new iOS breaking devices, I have been reading plenty of stories of iOS5 crippling phones(4's) and 1st gen iPads.  iCloud doesn't seem to playing well with any devices and many, many people are talking about their iPad2 data being completely lost.

 

Well it's running on both of mine without issue, unlike iOS4 on iPhone 3Gs which did slow them down.  And I don't even know how it's possible to loose all your data on an iOS device in an update, since a backup is a mandatory part of the process.  And even if something goes wrong you can restore the device and get back to exactly where you were.

Weird.  Shoot some links cause I find that totally confusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

There's fundamentalists for everything, but I find it tough to believe that everyone you encounter is a die-hard mac-mac.  If you bought one 15 years ago you almost had to be, but these days they're far in the minority.  And they're embarrassing for everyone.  The only time I ever recommend Macs to people is if they're clearly having issues with their Windows experience.  I've done that several times, and those that decided to try and make the switch have thanked me for it.  But there's lot of people for whom Windows is the better choice, and I'd be the last person to tell them they're doing something wrong.

 

But regarding my point about MS or Google stoking the fires of Apple generalizations- I'd say absolutely.  Many of MS's recent TV campaigns have been direct defensive campaigns against Macs.  The laptop hunter ads specifically.  Which makes no sense.  When does the market leader by a WIDE margin worry about the 10% they don't have.

 

Google has the marketshare it has because it was able to swoop in and take  WinMobile AND Symbian's position in the marketplace as being the defacto mobile OSs.  Andriod is on everything from high end smartphones to $0 feature phones- and LOTS of them.   Andriod legitimately has it's advantages, and it's fans; but much of it's raw marketshare lays with that bottom end, with people who may not even know what OS their phone is running- it's just the phone the sales rep at Verizon or Sprint sold them.  So it's no surprise they have more raw marketshare than Apple, but just like in the PC business Apple never wanted to be the commodity player.  Though it will be interesting to see what happens with Apple leaving the iPhone 3GS in this year's lineup as a $0 with contract phone.  But let's make one thing clear, if you look at the numbers, Andriod is eating marketshare from WindowsMobile, RIM and Symbian-- everyone BUT Apple.

 

And I'm sorry, but if you want to paint Apple's gain in marketshare in the PC business from 4% 5 years ago to 13% today [not counting iPads] as anything but a resounding success, I don't understand how you measure success.  Especially when Apple's part of the market is the high end one-  where all the money is.

I said nearly every Apple person I encounter is nuts, not every person.

You miss your own point completely by ignoring two things, the "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ad campaign and the fact that no such zealotry exists that I am aware of in the PC world. 

And, yes, Android isn't eating into Apple's marketshare but it is slowing it and will soon begin to eat away at it.  Much quicker than MS and the PC were able to which is my point as to why Apple has gone on such a litigious offensive.

And I wasn't really talking marketshare to begin with, I was talking about Apple users vain insistence that their platform is the best for various enterprises.  Those enterprises, mainly graphics heavy computing, filmmaking and music, have long been eclipsed by the ability of PC's to perform those functions better than their Mac counterparts.  Thus we return to the idiocy of Apple fanaticism despite your tangential arguments about money.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11thIndian 

Well it's running on both of mine without issue, unlike iOS4 on iPhone 3Gs which did slow them down.  And I don't even know how it's possible to loose all your data on an iOS device in an update, since a backup is a mandatory part of the process.  And even if something goes wrong you can restore the device and get back to exactly where you were.

 

Weird.  Shoot some links cause I find that totally confusing.

 

Error 3200 has been trending on Twitter for several days.  iPad users are complaining about how sluggish iOS5 is making their older hardware(mind you, this I see as normal and not something I am lumping in with what you quoted).  Multiple device users are reporting lost data when backups don't restore properly.  Twitter is awash with these complaints as are various tech boards.  Don't get me started on the various login issues and whatnot occuring with iCloud.

http://live.washingtonpost.com/should-i-upgrade-apple-ios5-111013.html

I'll give the mac/pc ads, which clearly were looking to grab Windows users frustrated by their experience- and it worked.  But to say there's no Windows zealotry baffles me.  The fact that you can't find a single Apple site where the forums aren't littered with Windows or Andriod trolls, regardless of the topic, is evidence of that.  This very thread is evidence of that.  

Well, going back to your original point, clearly there must still be some advantages for users, otherwise why would there still be a increasing curve on the trend towards switching?  As I mentioned, the larger Apple's marketshare grows, the less you can pin Apple's success on Fanboyism.  If these products weren't working for parents, grandparents, college student, creative professionals... surely the word would be out and the jig would be up.  After all, PCs are so much cheaper and do everything just as well!

3200 was all about bandwidth- too many people trying to update all at once.  I had my iPad 1 update fail and I had to do a full restore- but all my data was there in the mandatory backup, and iTunes walked me through the process clearly.  And the iCloud thing was a 2 hour outage.  It was fine on the day of, and it's been fine since.  You know as well as I do that everything on Twitter is either a "win" or "epic fail", when reality lies somewhere far between.

For someone who seems to spend so much time dipping into Apple related threads on CHUD badmouthing any announcement Apple makes, your comments about zealotry strike me as bizarrely ironic.

You mistake pointing out creepy cult-like behavior as zealotry for PC products.  I could give a shit who the dominant competitor is, I'll use whatever fits my needs.  But Apple users are sycophants.