Rewatching Buffy - Page 11

I think we've finally hit that point, the point that we've all silently been anticipating.  It's like knowing Draco was about to be in a car wreck and not being able to do anything about it...

Oh man, I'm flinching just remembering that moment as I read Draco react to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz 

Speaking of Emma Caufield, she was asked to be Star Buck on the BSG. For some reason she turned it down.

I cannot even begin to imagine what that would have looked like. We would have gotten a VERY different Kara Thrace from Caufield.

The long minutes following Buffy's discovery of the body to the arrival of the paramedics is some of the most heart-wrenching stuff I've seen on television.  That I felt like I was in that room myself is a credit to Joss Whedon, a credit to Sarah Michelle Gellar and a credit to anyone who helped capture that scene.

As the minutes passed by, I was only vaguely aware that I was still watching a conventional episode of television.  These characters were experiencing and reacting to a tragedy in real time and I was looking through a window.  There's no other possible way.

"Mom...mom...mommy?" is perhaps the most gut-wrenching line of all time. Breaks my heart every single time I watch that.

I'm really glad we're finally to this point, so that we can discuss what is, in my opinion, the finest episode ever aired on television.

I don't think it can be emphasized enough how good Gellar is in this episode. She's unbelievable, especially in that opening long take.

Unfortunately that episode hit me so close to home, that I'll never ever be able to watch it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomethingClever 

"Mom...mom...mommy?" is perhaps the most gut-wrenching line of all time. Breaks my heart every single time I watch that.

 

I'm really glad we're finally to this point, so that we can discuss what is, in my opinion, the finest episode ever aired on television.

 

I don't think it can be emphasized enough how good Gellar is in this episode. She's unbelievable, especially in that opening long take.

Michelle Trachtenberg is equally fantastic here.  I know that she has received some ridicule for her supposedly poor acting skills (at least back then when she was still starting out), but her "silent" reaction to Joyce's death, soft scribbling in the background, is heartbreaking.  The whole art class scene is just terrifically handled, as we first see Dawn in tears over rumors and work our way through the beginning of class until Buffy arrives.  There's a tension to those long moments, a knowledge of something that the character is still ignorant of, that makes us want to hold back ourselves...as if we could change a thing.

But everyone is great.  Every single frame is great.

I don't know if I could watch this in full again.  It's an amazing achievement, but it rings so true that it feels like something I'd only want to experience once.

Above all, I think what the episode gets so right about death is that feeling of "now what?" The lack of background music, the overall stillness of the episode, it just completely nails that sense that everybody wants to do something, but nobody knows what. You just want somebody to tell you what to do, to tell you how you're supposed to feel.

It's just an incredibly raw and realistic episode. It's a tremendous achievement, and it's a crime it didn't win tons of awards.

Of all the shows that would achieve what that episode did, it was a show called Buffy the fucking Vampire Slayer.  SOOOO many wonderful touches, the framing on the paramedic being aschew, Buffy's minor fantasy about everything magically turning out OK, and then the added pain that momentary comfort applies to reality...

 Emma Caufield was also great in that episode. Her lack of tact and not being used to interacting with humans was usually played for laughs. This time she just couldn't understand why Joyce was dead. It was a genuine reaction. I don't want to go into details, but the story line of Joyce's tumor hit close to home for me too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz 

 Emma Caufield was also great in that episode. Her lack of tact and not being used to interacting with humans was usually played for laughs. This time she just couldn't understand why Joyce was dead. It was a genuine reaction. I don't want to go into details, but the story line of Joyce's tumor hit close to me too.

Yeah that's the part that that I remember more than anything else, really powerful.

For me, it's the helpless petty details, like Xander getting a parking ticket or Willow freaking out that none of her clothes are serious enough.

And can we talk sometime about the various ways the show uses the weekly hard-cut to 'Executive Producer Joss Whedon'? This one's a killer. Harsh yet almost merciful.

Also should be mentioned: The horrified look on Buffy's face when she tells Giles "We're not supposed to move the body!"

Those first 10 minutes of the episode seriously make me just want to curl up in the fetal position for a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomethingClever 

Also should be mentioned: The horrified look on Buffy's face when she tells Giles "We're not supposed to move the body!"

 

Those first 10 minutes of the episode seriously make me just want to curl up in the fetal position for a while.

Especially because of the word body.  It's like she has a sudden, crashing revelation when that word escapes her mouth.

It's difficult to judge the following episode on its own merits.  How can it possibly reach the emotional heights of what came before?  You can't just ignore what happened in the previous episode, so you expect the episode to have the same quality of writing, an immediate reprisal of the emotions that Joss so perfectly captured, but at the same time the show needs to be eased back into its regular rhythm.  In that way, making the creature less of a "Monster of the Week" by tying into into Dawn's spell is smart.

Forever has a great number of moments that are as hard-hitting as The Body, and its ending is a real killer:  before Buffy can answer the door to see the revived Joyce (who we never see in full, providing no answer on how "successful" the spell was), Dawn tears the picture in half.  The door opens, and it's empty outside.

Credit where it's due:  Marti Noxon does a good job in recognizing that the show must go on while not robbing such a major death of its long-term emotional impact.  

I'm still not sure what to make of Ben, but I loved the exchange with his boss where he tries to excuse his two week absence and the boss says:

"Sure. You can also tell me that the dog ate your homework. Or maybe eating Twinkies made you do it. Or maybe, yeah, that there's really a wicked demonic creature living inside you that takes control of your body and forces you to do its bidding."

Two generically insulting guesses and one wildly specific one that hits the mark.

I liked Tara more than most, so seeing the aftermath of her scene with Glory was particularly hard to watch.  Willow running through the festivities, stumbling over the words to a spell to find Tara, and seeing what Glory did to her from a distance, helpless to clear the distance between them in time...

I can't help but feel that this will propel Willow's progression as a witch forward (ironically, something that Tara confessed to being frightened of), possibly in damaging ways.  Tara is not dead, but there doesn't seem to be a recovery from her mental state that wouldn't lead someone down the path into dark magic.

Spoke too soon.  Looks like we have Phoenix Willow.

Hmm.  Still processing the last two episodes of the season.  I have many positive things to say, but at the same time I found myself disappointed by certain things too.  A lot of the stuff at the end, concerning the Knights (really under-utilized), Ben and Glory in particular, seemed to have a "This is being made up on the spot" quality, and I found the resolution with Glory to be just a little flat.  However, I have to let all of this stew around in my mind for a while, because there's a lot of ambition packed into the final episodes and it deserves consideration.  This season has a lot of moments that, when they work, work really, really spectacularly well.

One thing's for certain:  I don't think Kramer quite pulled the performance off as this season's Big Bad.  I understand what they were going for with the character, but it never quite...clicked?  Faith was a deeper study in contrasting Buffy's qualities with another character and adversary.  I disagree with a lot of Buffy fans in that I really like Dawn, but I can definitely see why a lot of people can't stand Glory.

Strangely enough, the most immediate thought I've had is this:  when was Olaf's hammer established to be god-like?  Wasn't Olaf himself an enchanted human who simply became a strong, yet perfectly normal, troll?  His hammer was strong, but I never recall hearing the words "god-like" used before The Gift.  This bit about a Troll God and the hammer being a weapon of the gods rang false to me from what I remembered, although I might have missed that detail in the episode where he appears.

Then again, maybe I know they explained the hammer's origins in its introductory episode and I'm just blacking that out because seeing the Big Bad get whacked with a silly-looking prop was mighty unsatisfying.  Especially following the more ambitious melee on the tower.

No, you've got it right. The "Troll God Hammer" thing is one of the show's few irreconciled retcons.

How are you watching the show, by the way? DVD or download? One thing that bothers me about the Region 1 DVDs is that they omitted all the 'story so far' intros, and some of them were quite entertaining in their own right. In the original broadcast, "Sacrifice" opened with the usual Giles voice-over: "Previously, on Buffy the Vampire Slayer..." and then recapped the ENTIRE SERIES in an extended, increasingly frenetic montage. This clip finally surfaced as an easter egg on the Season 7 set so I can't be the only fan who complained of its absence-- is it on the streaming version?

Imagine Giles suffocating Riley. So powerful that would've been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead 

No, you've got it right. The "Troll God Hammer" thing is one of the show's few irreconciled retcons.

 

How are you watching the show, by the way? DVD or download? One thing that bothers me about the Region 1 DVDs is that they omitted all the 'story so far' intros, and some of them were quite entertaining in their own right. In the original broadcast, "Sacrifice" opened with the usual Giles voice-over: "Previously, on Buffy the Vampire Slayer..." and then recapped the ENTIRE SERIES in an extended, increasingly frenetic montage. This clip finally surfaced as an easter egg on the Season 7 set so I can't be the only fan who complained of its absence-- is it on the streaming version?

I also can't remember if Season 3's DVD had that hilarious 2 second recap of Harris Yulin telling Giles he's fired.

It did!

My mother passed in a similar manner 9 years ago.  If I put up a picture, it was uncanny how much she looked like Joyce (Sutherland).  I watched the episode for the first time earlier this year, and it was just haunting, and so realistic the silent, breathless confusing beginning.  Not being able to focus on what was going on and hearing but not really listening.  That episode will forever be considered one of the best hour longs I have ever seen, but I doubt I will ever watch it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior Strangely enough, the most immediate thought I've had is this:  when was Olaf's hammer established to be god-like?  Wasn't Olaf himself an enchanted human who simply became a strong, yet perfectly normal, troll?  His hammer was strong, but I never recall hearing the words "god-like" used before The Gift.  This bit about a Troll God and the hammer being a weapon of the gods rang false to me from what I remembered, although I might have missed that detail in the episode where he appears.

 

Then again, maybe I know they explained the hammer's origins in its introductory episode and I'm just blacking that out because seeing the Big Bad get whacked with a silly-looking prop was mighty unsatisfying.  Especially following the more ambitious melee on the tower.

I myself am also going thru the series and am in the same vicinity of episodes as you (although I already know the majority of the spoilers for the series).  I do agree that a little more info about the Troll hammer may have helped to fill in some blanks but I did wanna mention that in the episode where Spike agrees to join Dawn in burglarizing the Magic Shop, Spike attempts to steal the Hammer but changes his mind when he fails to be strong enough to lift it.  However, he makes some very brief joke about not wanting it anyway or something, when I felt like they could have dropped a little bit of exposition through his dialogue that would clarify the strength of the hammer.

I took a bit of a break from the marathon, but I'm starting the first few episodes of Season Six tonight.  I'm itching to see Once More With Feeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

I took a bit of a break from the marathon, but I'm starting the first few episodes of Season Six tonight.  I'm itching to see Once More With Feeling.

Steele yourself my friend. Emotionally I mean.

We'll be here when you need us...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Hmm.  Still processing the last two episodes of the season.  I have many positive things to say, but at the same time I found myself disappointed by certain things too.  A lot of the stuff at the end, concerning the Knights (really under-utilized), Ben and Glory in particular, seemed to have a "This is being made up on the spot" quality, and I found the resolution with Glory to be just a little flat.  However, I have to let all of this stew around in my mind for a while, because there's a lot of ambition packed into the final episodes and it deserves consideration.  This season has a lot of moments that, when they work, work really, really spectacularly well.

 

One thing's for certain:  I don't think Kramer quite pulled the performance off as this season's Big Bad.  I understand what they were going for with the character, but it never quite...clicked?  Faith was a deeper study in contrasting Buffy's qualities with another character and adversary.  I disagree with a lot of Buffy fans in that I really like Dawn, but I can definitely see why a lot of people can't stand Glory.

 

Strangely enough, the most immediate thought I've had is this:  when was Olaf's hammer established to be god-like?  Wasn't Olaf himself an enchanted human who simply became a strong, yet perfectly normal, troll?  His hammer was strong, but I never recall hearing the words "god-like" used before The Gift.  This bit about a Troll God and the hammer being a weapon of the gods rang false to me from what I remembered, although I might have missed that detail in the episode where he appears.

 

Then again, maybe I know they explained the hammer's origins in its introductory episode and I'm just blacking that out because seeing the Big Bad get whacked with a silly-looking prop was mighty unsatisfying.  Especially following the more ambitious melee on the tower.

I've never really gotten why people don't like Glory. I think she's plenty effective as a Big Bad for the season. Sure, Clare Kramer's performance isn't as Mayor-level good, but frankly, who is? She's a legitimately frightening foe for the whole season, they don't ever compromise the fact that she is able to beat Buffy to a pulp any time. In that final fight, they have to pull out every trick in the book to finally get the better of her, and it's a victory that feels earned. 

I absolutely love "The Gift". It's my second favorite episode of the series (behind the much-discussed "The Body"). Buffy's sacrificial death is set up really well throughout the course of the season. The establishing of Buffy and Dawn as sharing the same blood, that the monks made Dawn out of Buffy, and that "Death is her gift". There's the statement within the episode that "I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices I have to make...If Dawn dies, I'm done with it."

Then there's the fight with Glory, which also ties in elements from throughout the season.The Dagon Sphere (which you basically forget all about), the troll hammer (which isn't established as a "troll god", but it is established that the troll's power is in his hammer), the Buffy-bot, the Tara brain-drain. All those individual elements from throughout the season build up to Buffy finally being able to beat Glory.

Also, it's just full of great moments, both dramatic and humorous.

"Not exactly the St. Crispin's Day speech, was it?"

"We few, we happy few..."

"We band of buggered."

"Here to help. Wanna live."

"It's an omen! It's a higher power trying to tell me through bunnies that we're all gonna die! Oh god!"

It's a GREAT Giles episode too. From his confrontation with Buffy at the beginning ("Yes we bloody well are!") to, of course, the moment with Ben at the end ("she's not like us..." Just a great showcase for him.

And, of course:

She Saved the World

          A Lot

I understand where they were going with Glory, but she felt like such a missed opportunity to me, and Kramer became insufferable after her first few scenes.  It's like tin foil was being rubbed against my ears, which wasn't the case with the Mayor.  I never found her frightening for even a minute, and for the kick-ass concept of an other-dimensional hell god she became little more than an irksome Cordelia who was really quite strong.  The "stronger, more vain Buffy" concept just didn't work for an entire season's worth of antagonism, especially since the idea of duality was never effectively conveyed.  Add in the confused, half-assed mythology and she just crumbles as a credible Big Bad.  I think I would have liked her more if Kramer didn't annoy me so much, and not in a good way.

I've disagreed with the seeming consensus a few times (I like Dawn!), but Glory/Ben bored the hell out of me.

She doesn't ruin Season Five, but she is a bit of a disappointment.  Her being a god in her own right could have been explored in much more striking ways instead of a shoddy special effect and super-strength.  The Scooby Gang definitely had to struggle to defeat Glory, but I didn't find their conflict with her to be particularly interesting outside of the immediate danger to Dawn.

She's not as botched as Adam in Season Four, but like Adam Glory was consistently upstaged by the weekly threats this season.

So far, I think my ranking of the Big Bads would be (starting at 1 for the best and ending at 5 for the worst):

1)  The Mayor

2)  Angelus

3)  The Master

4)  Adam

5)  Glory

I still haven't figured out my so-called "Buffy Code" so far, since some seasons have proven to be difficult to judge, but I'm currently working on it.

I'm sure it's been said before, but Glory would have been a far better fit on Angel, in L.A., what with her whole struggling-actress vibe.

Glory kicks Adam and The Master's booties. So, so much.

Adam and The Master are better designed/realized, but the show does comparatively little with them. Glory's certainly not the best, but she at least has a ton of character.

The next two seasons will knock the three of them down further though. Especially when it comes to 6's last two episodes.

One of Spike's best scenes was after being tortured by Glory he still mocks her. "God of what? Bad home perms." "The Slayer is going to kick your lop sided ass back to whatever dimension that would take a cheap whorish God like you!"

Giles?  Giles?  Where are you going?!  Come back!!

I knew something was about to happen when Head was listed as a Special Guest Star.

All heroes need the mentor/father figure to step aside so they can shine.

Not when that figure is Anthony Head they don't.  Spike and Willow are going to have a lot of heavy-lifting to do in his absence.

Not to be a broken record, but Spike rules all!  Sorry, my favorite character, and his entire arc was earned.  More so than A's, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by kernel 

Not to be a broken record, but Spike rules all!  Sorry, my favorite character, and his entire arc was earned.  More so than A's, in my opinion.

Much as I love Spike (and man do I love Spike), I have some serious issues with how he was handled in the latter part of season 5 and throughout season 6. I won't get into it yet because Draco isn't there, but I think there are issues with regard to "what does it mean to have/not have a soul" that make his arc problematic.

Veteran Buffy watchers, at this point, I have one word for you: don't. Just... don't.

And you know what I'm talking about.

I wasn't initially supportive of how easily Buffy was brought back, but I have to amend my lack of support (at least for the time being, since everything could go sour soon) because I think the show has, at least up until episode five, managed to illustrate just how much of an affect the resurrection has had on Buffy.  She's thrust back into a matriarchal role and Flooded makes it clear that she's struggling to make that transition again.  I was wondering if the show would ever touch upon financial woes post-Joyce, given Buffy's unemployment, and this episode did that in a meaningful, dramatically satisfying way.

Willow's conversation with Giles, where his affection for her turns into a scathing rebuke of the forces she's invoked, also nicely sets up what looks to be a seasonal arc where the darker side of her magic manifests.  It's clear that the exhilaration of bringing Buffy back has also led her to shed some of the insecurities she has had about going further with magic, and I'm very curious to see where that takes her.

Okay, that construction site brawl was pretty awesome.  Some very fine choreography and fun little kills.

Also, if The Trio's plans continue to be so incredibly over-the-top, I think I might like them quite a bit.  They're surprisingly active.

Hahahaha, Jonathan's spell is my favorite by far.  His repeating series of events where Buffy has to sell the mummy hand completely intact to satisfy the customer - if she fails, the entire sequence restarts, leaving her increasingly more frustrated and, eventually, in tears - is, hands down, one of my favorite moments not just from the season, but out of the series as a whole.  What makes it is the guy who wants to know which candle out of two will be best for seducing his girlfriend (lemon vs. slug, with Buffy at first cheerfully recommending the lemon and then, a few unspecified repeats later, shoving the slug bottle at him forcefully - "She's not going to sleep with you anyway").

Forget all of the slowly deflating apocalyptic plots we've had with most Big Bads, The Trio bests them all.

"It's not like I don't already have plans.  "Great Pumpkin"'s on in twenty."

Halloween episode is quite fun and funny so far.  Loved Willow criticizing an adult in a stereotypical witch costume (stopping her suggestion about where the witch's broom might be found short when Dawn appears) and then doing a complete flip-flop when a cute little girl appears wearing similarly misguided attire.

Loved the Halloween episode.  I wasn't quite sure of having another situation be motivated by Dawn's teenaged antics, but the writing makes it work surprisingly well.  First off, establishing the old man as the "Monster of the Week" and then completely turning the tables when the two boys Dawn is with are revealed to be vampires genuinely took me by surprise (I took them as two idiots that would eventually try to take advantage of the girls and possibly get killed off).  Dawn, who still thinks of the boy she's been matched with as human, shares her first real kiss with him and, when Buffy comes to her "rescue", stakes him herself before she's turned.  Bravo to the writers for taking what could have been a generic threat and turning it completely into a sad, somewhat maturing moment for Dawn.

I don't know what's changed, but the one-on-one choreography for the small creature encounters has been noticeably more ambitious this season.  Buffy's fight with the vampire, using the car to her advantage, was legitimately thrilling.  And Giles displays some skills!  Well done all around.

I also have got done sour on Willow's abuse of her magic.  Tying those abuses this episode into conflict with Tara was smart.

Once More, With Feeling is next!

Awesome, I'm tempted to put that on and watch it again myself.

Wow.

Sweet is one of my favorite villains of all time.  Hinton Battle is amazing in that role.