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This is my problem with Kennedy. Willow loved Tara so much, her death made her want to end the world. Now she she is in a relationship with the first woman that show s an interest with her?! I get why Kennedy would have the hots for Willow. I would sell my soul for her. I don't get what Willow sees in her. She had magic and could be socially awkward in common with Tara. What do Kennedy and Willow have in common?
Not to mention shes underage right?
The First briefly "retreating" to allow for training sessions is awfully convenient.
The First briefly "retreating" to allow for training sessions is awfully convenient.
The First is just like any Bond villain. "I'm incredibly powerful and could kill you instantly! But I have a much more sinister plot which involves giving you plenty of time to regroup and defeat me! Muahaha!"
This is my problem with Kennedy. Willow loved Tara so much, her death made her want to end the world. Now she she is in a relationship with the first woman that show s an interest with her?! I get why Kennedy would have the hots for Willow. I would sell my soul for her. I don't get what Willow sees in her. She had magic and could be socially awkward in common with Tara. What do Kennedy and Willow have in common?
Pierced vajayjays?
They're both young, attractive lesbians neck deep in the physical fight against the incorporeal embodiment of evil in the world, for starters. And remember that Willow's like 20 and on the rebound. I had a relationship at that age that was based on the girl drinking Busch Light without complaint and not cracking her gum.
I'll admit that I really love Tara and Amber Benson is all kinds of awesome, so an inferior actress whose character has a flimsier reason for getting with Willow irks me. Like the Potentials themselves, the relationship feels too sudden and, from what I've heard, doesn't exactly develop to be any more interesting than it starts out as.
Someone on a Buffy message board I frequent made an observation that I agree with:
Quote:
It sucks that Kennedy undeservedly gets to be in a long-term relationship that doesn't seem like it's worthy of more than a few weeks at best. Like Riley, she's the opposite of a character's former love interest, but in Willow's case it's not treated like a rebound. Tara deserves better if she's going to be replaced by that.
You frequent a Buffy message board and are just watching the show for the first time now?
Mostly as a lurker. I've gone there a few times each day over the past few weeks to read up on specific discussions. It's much easier to moderate what I read (even though I'm now in the endgame) when specific threads are devoted to a season and its episodes, although my primary reason for going to a Buffy-specific board is that there's naturally more debate/discussion there. When I finish an episode, I like to read what others thought, arguments that were made between developments, etc.
By this point, I consider myself enough of a fan - or, rather, someone interested enough in the series - to do that.
Dawn being a Potential, which sadly does not come to pass after all, would have been a very strange but interesting development, allowing the writers to more tightly illustrate the empowerment theme without overstuffing the cast during their last show. Cut the Potential number down a bit, replace Kennedy with Dawn (whose willingness to join the fight and be part of Buffy's world has been fairly well-established, meaning that we would not have to deal with the generic leader type role that Kennedy fulfills), and we'd have a tighter season by this point.
I will give Felicia Day her due and say that Violet is the least annoying, although she's not really much of a character yet.
Dawn being a Potential, which sadly does not come to pass after all, would have been a very strange but interesting development, allowing the writers to more tightly illustrate the empowerment theme without overstuffing the cast during their last show. Cut the Potential number down a bit, replace Kennedy with Dawn (whose willingness to join the fight and be part of Buffy's world has been fairly well-established, meaning that we would not have to deal with the generic leader type role that Kennedy fulfills), and we'd have a tighter season by this point.
But then we'd miss my favorite Xander moment of the entire series where he essentially shows himself to be one of the shows truest heroes.
Dawn being a Potential, which sadly does not come to pass after all, would have been a very strange but interesting development, allowing the writers to more tightly illustrate the empowerment theme without overstuffing the cast during their last show. Cut the Potential number down a bit, replace Kennedy with Dawn (whose willingness to join the fight and be part of Buffy's world has been fairly well-established, meaning that we would not have to deal with the generic leader type role that Kennedy fulfills), and we'd have a tighter season by this point.
Yeah I kind of wished they would go somewhere similar but not a potential. Dawn was the key, a ball of energy so powerful that it could tear a rift in the fabric of space and time. When Willow was all bad ass she even mentioned that she could see the power and threatened to turn her back into it. So I always wished they had used that somehow. Given shes made of it maybe she should be able to tap into it and have some otherworldly superpowers. And maybe when Willow needs to draw from someone for a power source, instead of Kennedy maybe the powerful ball of energy.
Speaking of Dawn, I went back to the Season Seven premiere after reading a comment online and realized that, while it's very much Dawn-centric, it also feels like it could be the first episode in some kind of early Dawn spin-off, with Buffy dropping her off in a reduced capacity and giving her blessing to the three kids at the end. You're the lead now, kid.
Pretty neat to think of it as the "series that never was". Dawn's school adventures are ripe for fanfiction.
The emphasis on Dawn hitting the books in S7 made me think she was going to become (informally at least) a Watcher. I would have dug that.
It's kind of a shame that Dawn has become something of a background character (not entirely, since there are episodes where she is at the forefront like the fairly recent "Is she a Potential?" one), because Trachtenberg has improved quite a bit. She seems to have more of a quiet strength and has eased into the group, but the possibilities that they briefly play with (her kind of fulfilling Willow's former bookish/research role not really going anywhere, etc) are far much interesting than where she seems to be headed.
I've been reading some of Whedon's interviews and he has stated that, if they had more time, he would have liked to do more with Dawn. Michelle was apparently a bit disappointed that she never did get her love interest. I imagine we might have seen more of her with Buffy and definitely more school if they had a Season Eight. Hell, if Dawn hadn't been such a contentious character - something I'm sure Joss was aware of - they might have given her a spin-off to focus on those adventures. If they were more confident in the character being strong enough to anchor an independent show, I'm sure they would have tried to do more in the early episodes to establish Dawn's friends and school life.
Opinion is divided on the 'Season 8' comic (I think the first ten or twelve issues are superb), but Dawn gets a great 'grown-up' storyline there.
I've heard a lot of divided things about the comics, with some fans outright stating that they completely disregard what occurs in them. Personally, I'm not much of a comic person and associate the dialogue so much with the actors that reading it in print form pretty much has non-existent appeal to me. On the other hand, the writers had a lot of ambitions in the show that probably would have translated better into the less restricting comic form, so I might check the first few issues out someday.
The comics are not good, but they do a surprisingly good job of capturing the dialogue. If you want to check out just one, I'd recommend the (first? I gave up pretty quick) reappearance of Dracula.
Like Hammerhead said, Season 8 starts great but I find it ends in a trainwreck (I actually yelled "Forty issues for THIS?").
Season 9 seems to be doing the back-to-basics approach and I've heard better things.
Certainly, the comic form does allow the writers to put in all sorts of things that would have blown the FX budget on the show, some of which pay off spectacularly.
The comics are not good, but they do a surprisingly good job of capturing the dialogue. If you want to check out just one, I'd recommend the (first? I gave up pretty quick) reappearance of Dracula.
I was always wondering if Dracula would ever appear again after his non-defeat back in Season Five (his attempt to turn back into a misty incorporeal firm while Buffy was still standing right next to him always cracks me up when I think about it). I'll check out his issue later on to dip my toes into the water, at the very least.
Opinion is divided on the 'Season 8' comic (I think the first ten or twelve issues are superb), but Dawn gets a great 'grown-up' storyline there.
Dawn is undoubtedly the highlight of the Season 8 comics. They do a lot of great stuff with her.
I really loved probably the first half of the Season 8 stuff (everything through the Fray crossover arc), then it started to go downhill some, then it just dove straight off a cliff in the end.
I'd love to see Brian K. Vaughn and Whedon work together on something, be it a comic or a TV show. Vaughn does a really great job on his arc in Season 8, and Whedon similarly did a great job when he took over Vaughn's Runaways series. Seems like the two would just work really well together (also, I just love BKV's work)
As most people have already stated, the Season 8 comics start well enough before completely going over the edge into silly/stupid territory. The back-half has moments that work here and there, and I like the final issue quite a bit. Overall, though, the first half just isn't good enough to outweight the pretty awful second half.
As for Season 9, I have had pretty mixed emotions on it so far. I like the "back to basics" approach, but almost every character save Buffy and Spike has been pretty much in the background (at least for the first 8 issues I have read). Also, while I haven't read the newest issue yet, the last one gives me great fear that this season is also going to dive headlong into stupid territory with the revelation that
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)every appearance of Buffy since the first issue of the season has been a robot created by Andrew. Andrew also uploaded the newest Buffy-bot with all of Buffy's memories and feelings. This plotline was made even more idiotic by the fact that it appeared Buffy was pregnant. There was a very good issue of Buffy weighing the pros and cons of having a child and ultimately coming to the conclusion that she should have an abortion. It was the kind of mature, nuanced treatment of a "serious issue" that I always felt the show did so well. Then they throw all of that out the window for an absolutely idiotic plotline.
Still, the Angel and Faith series has been excellent thus far, so the Season hasn't been a total wash.
I was always wondering if Dracula would ever appear again after his non-defeat back in Season Five (his attempt to turn back into a misty incorporeal firm while Buffy was still standing right next to him always cracks me up when I think about it). I'll check out his issue later on to dip my toes into the water, at the very least.
The 'Season 8' Dracula appearance is actually a sequel to an earlier, but still post- Season 7, standalone comic. I'll see if I can dig up a link.
ETA: Actually, it's totally S7-spoilery. Later perhaps.
I really loved probably the first half of the Season 8 stuff (everything through the Fray crossover arc), then it started to go downhill some, then it just dove straight off a cliff in the end.
I agree with the sentiment here, but I don't think it nose-dived quite to the degree you did. S8 gets off to a great start, then hits a really big rough patch in the middle. The finale is bonkers and doesn't make a lot of sense, but I had fun with it. And the final issue is great in a Restless-like way.
S9's been pretty great (especially Angel & Faith).
This is why I hated the finale of the Buffy season 8 comic.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)There was a recurring theme in both Buffy and Angel, that a person could redeem themselves. When Angel killed Giles, they shit all over that theme.I was so pissed when I read that, I got how people could be so angry about the Star Wars prequels.
I meant to write this when you got to the finale of season 6. Xander's speech to Willow is his finest moment.
Are we done here? I enjoyed this thread. Any chance of carrying on with Angel, Draco?
Bumping this.
I'm super late to the party with Whedon. I was always aware of him, and I worshipped Firefly throughout college, but my enthusiasm for that has waned considerably in the years since. I always wrote off Buffy as a lame girly girl show (yeah, I was one of those assholes), but the one-two punch of Cabin in the Woods and The Avengers convinced me to actually sit down and give Buffy a chance. Really glad I did. I've been lagging way behind Draco and trying to avoid spoilers, so I've stayed out of the discussion, but reading through this thread has been a lot of fun.
I'm just cracking into season 7 now, so I'm still not caught up yet, but I had to jump in here and stand up for season 6, which I absolutely loved. Its hands down my favorite season so far, and its not really that close. I get the love for seasons 2 and 3 - I think Angelus and The Mayor (and Faith actually) are the strongest villains the show has had, and in terms of long-form storytelling, both seasons were immensely satisfying. I had fun with season 4, probably because of some excellent stand alone eps (Hush, Restless), and also because The Initiative stuff gave off a heavy Cabin in the Woods vibe. Season 5 was a lot of ups and downs for me - some stand alone episodes were fantastic (The Body destroyed me), but I found myself really bored with the Glory arc.
Season 6, to me, succeeded in a way that the previous 5 seasons did not - it managed to consistently find balance between the fantasy genre stuff and (for lack of a better word) 'gritty' real world stuff. The mentor / father figure leaving, financial woes, custody battles, grappling with addiction, etc - this stuff kept Buffy grounded in reality, in ways the previous seasons did not. The dark tone always feels earned, and never gimmicky, particularly with the way the show handles Buffy's resurrection, and how it leads to her relationship with Spike. Really effective. I wasn't crazy about The Trio as the big bad, but that ended up being brilliant misdirection anyway. Warren's demise is probably the biggest HOLY SHIT moment of the entire series, hands down. All that being said, I despise Hells Bells just as much as you guys, so there's that.
But still. Whats with all the season 6 hate?
But still. Whats with all the season 6 hate?
The short answer, at least as far as I'm concerned, was that it always felt to me that the plot was driving the characters, not the other way around. Giles leaving felt forced, Willow's magic abuse seemed out-of-character (and never worked for me as a plot), the villains were completely unthreatening (and jokey in a way that felt like they belonged on a lesser show), and contrivance and random chance (like Warren shooting Tara essentially on accident) drove too many major plot points. Buffy's best seasons were character-driven. This one was plot-driven.
I also think they really screwed up the dark/light balance. Every major cast member either did something terrible or had something terrible happen to them. There was no real lightness to go with all that, and so it stopped feeling like Buffy.
See, I'm hard on S6 because while it invokes these 'real world' issues it doesn't commit to them. Giles leaves? Giles comes back. Financial woes? The Doublemeat Palace (which I enjoyed) gets abandoned after something like three episodes, then Buffy gets a check for an undisclosed amount. Custody battle? We never hear from Social Services again.
Interesting that you didn't care for the Trio, then-- they're the embodiment of the real-world mundanity the season is claiming to explore.
ETA: Also, I really dislike the way Buffy's father is retconned as a deadbeat. I accept that there was no need to bring him in as a character, and that there may have been production issues of cast budget and/or actor availability, but following that wrenching scene way back in "Nightmares" we saw that Buffy's relationship with him in real life was a positive and loving one, and we're told she spent her summer vacation with him. What's supposed to have happened in the meantime?
See, I'm hard on S6 because while it invokes these 'real world' issues it doesn't commit to them. Giles leaves? Giles comes back. Financial woes? The Doublemeat Palace (which I enjoyed) gets abandoned after something like three episodes, then Buffy gets a check for an undisclosed amount. Custody battle? We never hear from Social Services again.
Interesting that you didn't care for the Trio, then-- they're the embodiment of the real-world mundanity the season is claiming to explore.
This is a fair point. Stuff gets dropped and the writers take a lot of shortcuts. The social services thing especially. I too enjoyed the Doublemeat Palace - what a delightfully bizarre Twin Peaksy episode - but it also gets dropped pretty quickly. At the same time, I don't know if I want to keep going back there each week either. I just liked that the show was even acknowledging this stuff in the first place.
As far as the Trio goes, they were fine for general mischief and goofiness (and really dated Star Wars banter - I think there was a midichlorian reference in there towards the end!), but underwhelming as the big bad for season 6. And in the end, they were mainly there to get the ball rolling with the Evil Willow stuff anyway, so I'm ok with them.
I'm thinking that I probably wouldn't have enjoyed the season nearly as much if everything before it been equally dour.
No argument. And if nerdy memory serves, the prop was an appropriately vintage Kenner figure, as opposed to the POTF Fett featured in that one ep of Newsradio.
I would totally have accepted the Doublemeat Palace as Buffy's new base of operations. Open all night, right?
See, I'm hard on S6 because while it invokes these 'real world' issues it doesn't commit to them. Giles leaves? Giles comes back. Financial woes? The Doublemeat Palace (which I enjoyed) gets abandoned after something like three episodes, then Buffy gets a check for an undisclosed amount. Custody battle? We never hear from Social Services again.
Interesting that you didn't care for the Trio, then-- they're the embodiment of the real-world mundanity the season is claiming to explore.
ETA: Also, I really dislike the way Buffy's father is retconned as a deadbeat. I accept that there was no need to bring him in as a character, and that there may have been production issues of cast budget and/or actor availability, but following that wrenching scene way back in "Nightmares" we saw that Buffy's relationship with him in real life was a positive and loving one, and we're told she spent her summer vacation with him. What's supposed to have happened in the meantime?
I never thought much about the deadbeat dad thing, but I think it could be explained by the introduction of Dawn. While nothing much changed in Sunnydale, the explanation that now Joyce had two daughters living with her the whole time and the dad was far away might've changed their outlook on him, or vice-versa, when reality was changed to accommodate. He became a deadbeat because it wasn't a one child family that split apart anymore. Single mother raising two daughters with minimal involvement from the father = deadbeat dad.
Finished up season 7 last week, and I kinda loved it. The First felt very appropriate for the big bad - kind of a greatest hits collection - and the addition of Fillion down the home stretch was just the icing on the cake. Great finale too, although I thought the way Whedon handled Anya's death was a bit clunky. Why wasn't anyone sad!? I get what he was going for, and I think he pretty much nails it later with Wash's death in Serenity, but here it didn't work for me. Still, minor squabble.
Now then: where do people stand on Angel? I've started it (last episode I saw was the first Buffy appearance) and I'm a little underwhelmed. So far, I'm getting a pretty conventional Monster of the Week vibe. I get that budget is probably an issue, so I won't fault them for stuff like re-using Sunnydale sets and trying to pass it off as LA, but why is Angel an awkward aspbergian nerd all of a sudden? Also, nothing against Doyle and Cordelia, but they really need to beef up the cast a bit as well.
EDIT: Spoiler tag not working, so I blacked out my giant spoiler. Didn't realize Draco wasn't finished. Sorry!
Now then: where do people stand on Angel? I've started it (last episode I saw was the first Buffy appearance) and I'm a little underwhelmed. So far, I'm getting a pretty conventional Monster of the Week vibe. I get that budget is probably an issue, so I won't fault them for stuff like re-using Sunnydale sets and trying to pass it off as LA, but why is Angel an awkward aspbergian nerd all of a sudden? Also, nothing against Doyle and Cordelia, but they really need to beef up the cast a bit as well.
It starts to kick major ass around episode 9. And like Buffy it hits it's stirde in S2
I should finish Season 7 soon. I became a little frustrated with it halfway through once the show made the cast much too large for its own good (I understand the thematic importance of the Potentials, but I could not hate the too-frequent Summers household scenes with them even more, especially since too much of the main cast - characters that I have come to love over the past six seasons - is left giving commentary from the couch as their screentime is robbed) and decided to put it on hold. I had some problems with Season 6, but the one thing it can't really be accused of is not giving the main cast the screentime it deserves, whether that time was ultimately, in your view, put to good use or not. Buffy just doesn't work as well when you add ten new personalities to the mix at what feels like the last minute - the dialogue and characterization that makes this show so unique just does not come across as well when it's spread between so many different people at the same time.
But yeah, will look into finishing the season.
Angel's first season has a lot of kinks to iron out. It picks up with the first major addition to the cast and the Faith crossover and is much more solid in season 2.
Now then: where do people stand on Angel? I've started it (last episode I saw was the first Buffy appearance) and I'm a little underwhelmed.
With the exception of backsliding in Season 4, I think there's a general consensus that each season is better than the last. Some people would argue that the show peaks in season 3 (I don't, though that's an excellent season of television), but the show starts off very clunky and gradually finds its footing.
That being said, Cordy's character arc is.... odd. I don't think it ever really worked, especially since her character - who's supposed to be 18-19 in the first season - seems to age about three years for every year on the show. And by age, I don't mean physically, just that Charisma Carpenter, who was about a decade older than her character, began to play her as a character closer to her actual age than as a teenager/college-age woman. And at some point the writers no longer seem to know what to do with her.
One other character, who you may not have gotten to, however, has one of the best character arcs I've ever seen depicted in any filmed medium.
It baffles me that people pick any season other than 5 as Angel's best. I mean, I understand on an intellectual level that individuals have varying opinion on the relatively quality of filmed entertainment and so forth, but I just don't see it.
I was going to plow forward regardless, but I'm glad to hear Angel hits its stride soon.
I'm sort of weird in that I really like Angel's first season. It's clunky in the way most Whedon first years are, but it has some episodes that I really love (I Will Remember You, Somnambulist, Five by Five, Sanctuary, Blind Date, and To Shanshu in L.A.). I also really dig City Of, as it's so eager to play with the conventions of the brooding detective story.
The thing to remember about Angel is that, generally speaking, it gets better as it goes, all the way to the end.
I'm sort of weird in that I really like Angel's first season. It's clunky in the way most Whedon first years are, but it has some episodes that I really love (I Will Remember You, Somnambulist, Five by Five, Sanctuary, Blind Date, and To Shanshu in L.A.). I also really dig City Of, as it's so eager to play with the conventions of the brooding detective story.
The thing to remember about Angel is that, generally speaking, it gets better as it goes, all the way to the end.
Completely agree. I will say 5 is the best but I really like the first season for the episodes you mentioned and for pure simplicity. It was before he had a son, or got too heavily involved with the powers that be.
With the exception of backsliding in Season 4, I think there's a general consensus that each season is better than the last. Some people would argue that the show peaks in season 3 (I don't, though that's an excellent season of television), but the show starts off very clunky and gradually finds its footing.
That being said, Cordy's character arc is.... odd. I don't think it ever really worked, especially since her character - who's supposed to be 18-19 in the first season - seems to age about three years for every year on the show. And by age, I don't mean physically, just that Charisma Carpenter, who was about a decade older than her character, began to play her as a character closer to her actual age than as a teenager/college-age woman. And at some point the writers no longer seem to know what to do with her.
One other character, who you may not have gotten to, however, has one of the best character arcs I've ever seen depicted in any filmed medium.
I agree with that. Although I would agree with the physical too but of course Angel didn't exactly look like an ageless vampire either. It just started to get really noticeable around the end. See im starting to think she just wasn't that great of an actress really. I think when she was playing Cordy as a stuck up selfish girl she seemed young because well...aren't all teenagers selfish and kind of awful? But then when she went to Angel her arc was to grow and become selfless. I don't think she understood how to play her age without the valley girl snobbery to fall back on.
But to be fair to her, complications arose with her pregnancy. Her and Joss had quite the falling out when she got pregnant and they had to scrap plans. Then when she returned he killed her off after he promised not to.
I agree with that. Although I would agree with the physical too but of course Angel didn't exactly look like an ageless vampire either.
Angel's aging adds a weird element to it. 1st season Buffy Angel being in love with a teenager seemed okay, at least at the time. Fifth season of his own show Angel being in love with a fifteen-year-old is incredibly creepy.
Angel's aging adds a weird element to it. 1st season Buffy Angel being in love with a teenager seemed okay, at least at the time. Fifth season of his own show Angel being in love with a fifteen-year-old is incredibly creepy.
If Boreanez kept in shape it wouldn't have been so odd. He let himself go for a male tv lead. If you look at him on Bones he is in much better shape.
S5 is the best. And not to build it up to much, but it has arguably the best finale of any show ever.
If I recall correctly, Boreanaz was dealing with a back injury at the time, hence the weight gain.
If I recall correctly, Boreanaz was dealing with a back injury at the time, hence the weight gain.
And heaven knows, in the category of "Whedon leading man who kinda let himself go," Boreanaz would be a well distant second these days.
Captain Tightpants indeed.
Willow's magic addication made sense to me. She was lacking self confidence in season 1, and season four's finale showed that she still had that problem. It made sense that she would use magic to make up for, unlike Tara who used it to help people.
I also hated Hell's Bells. I just want one happy relationship in the Buffyverse. I sure as hell wouldn't leave Anya at the altar!
Willow's magic addication made sense to me. She was lacking self confidence in season 1, and season four's finale showed that she still had that problem. It made sense that she would use magic to make up for, unlike Tara who used it to help people.
I think it was an idea that could have been done well, but wasn't. The trouble is that they had a great hook for it - power corrupts - that they avoided in favor of magic-as-drug-addiction, which came out of left field and never seemed true to character.
It also led to some truly awful episodes. The one where they're getting high in the back-alley drug dealer office or whatever was sub-afterschool special.
