2011-2012 NBA Season - Page 18

Yeah, The Decision TV thing was a spectacular PR miscalculation, but I have no problem with the way they went about forming their team. People didn't go this crazy when Boston formed their Big Three, which despite all protestations to the contrary was a very similar situation.

 

It really wasn't the same thing.  As I've said before,  Garnett and Allen (who the Celtics traded for in a pretty even deal) were the old guys who'd put in about a dozen years each with their respective teams, and who weren't winning titles on their own, chasing a ring.  Fans have never really begrudged superstars doing that.  Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Gary Payton, etc...

 

Way different than the two best free agents of a given class, both 26, joining up with another superstar all at once.  Especially when LeBron's Cavs were routinely highly seeded playoff teams who'd made it to the finals.  Not saying that Mo Williams and Sideshow Varajao were winning anything, but the perception was LeBron left a very good team (61 wins) to join a ready-made all-star team.  Contrast that with Boston's big 3 the year before.  The Celtics?  Well under .500.  The T-Wolves?  Well under .500.  The Supersonics?  Well under .500.

Why does the age matter? Why should Lebron have to wait 5-6 more years of futility in Cleveland before he's allowed to go to a better team (all the while hearing again and again that he isn't a "winner")?

 

And lets not pretend that the Boston big 3 were all washed up superstars ala Payton/Malone. Pierce has been an All-Star 5 times since the trade, Allen 3 times and Garnett 4.

 

Also, the only reason why Lebron's Cavs were routinely good teams was because Lebron is the best player in the world. The Cavs the year after Lebron were worse than the TWolves after Garnett and the Sonics after Allen. Again, why should Lebron be barred from moving to a good team simply because he's so, so good?

 

The real difference is that the Celtics traded for their stars, and the Heat signed theirs. The claim that they're less a "team" because of the way they were formed flies in the face of all the things people have written about what a great "team" the Celtics are (obviously they've been together a few years now, but this was around during year 1).

 

I'm ok if you dislike Lebron for the way he handled the decision, but I think it's ridiculous to fault him for leaving Cleveland and going to play with 2 other great players. Cleveland was a terribly built team, with awful supporting players and no cap space to make any significant moves. Why can't he leave for a better situation, and why would it have been any better if he had gone to Chicago or anywhere else?

No one's saying he shouldn't have been allowed to move to whatever team he wants.  The question is why do people not like the Heat; the answer is that they have all the hype with none of the history.  And it's not like the hype was thrust upon them; they had a big hand in setting expectations for themselves very high and now they have to deal with the fact that no one is super impressed with their performance.  That they have become identified with flopping and self-pitying reactions to failure doesn't help.

Stern is a smug jerk but good for him; Rome was looking to be provocative and he isn't used to someone returning serve.

Of course age matters.  If people thought LeBron was trying to get a ring before he called it a career, they'd be a lot more sympathetic than what the Heat presented themselves as; which was the new dynasty.

 

And yeah, the Cavs were so good because of LeBron, but they still were technically contenders with him.  Capable of producing the best record in the league.  The other teams weren't even making the playoffs with the rosters as they were comprised, so it's not like the fanbases felt like they were getting robbed of hope.  What LeBron did he did to a winning squad, in his hometown.  (The one he promised to bring a ring to.)

 

Obviously he had every right to do it, but from a fan's perspective it's different than the way Boston's big three came together.  (And let's not pretend that big three was as good as James, Wade, and Bosh on their own.  They also needed Rondo to emerge to be real contenders.)

 

The wife beating question is a poor analogy, because there's been NO speculation that Rome has beat his wife.

There have been years of speculation of the NBA being rigged.

It's a fair question, and Stern needs to answer it....even if he is tired of being asked.

I have a problem when a team has an announcement ceremony to say how awesome they will be.

I have a problem when when 3 amazing players can call each other and decide to team up and have an announcement ceremony, let alone one of them has a televised event of his decision.

I personally think Lebron is a talented player, probably the best, who doesn't have any heart. Did he take an easy way out? Yes. He didn't have to stay with his team, but previous big team franchises seemed to build their teams through hard work and leadership. I feel something similar would of been if Jordon called up Bird and Magic Johnson and decided to all play for the Bulls.

Did Rome expect Stern to say "Of course it is fixed!  We've been doing it for years!"?  

 

Even if there has been speculation, a conspiracy won't be uncovered via an interview with Stern.  Rome was just trying to make some noise out of pure self-promotion and Stern wouldn't let him.

Stern's not wrong that Rome has made a career out of sensationalism, but he also didn't have to come on his show.  Don't come on there and insult the man.

 

As for Rome's question, he didn't have to ask it, but he probably would have gotten some heat from his dumber fanbase if he hadn't.  Considering sports interviews are filled with questions whose answers are foregone conclusions, I don't see why Stern needed to get in a snit over it.

To be fair, Stern is usually a prick to nearly EVERYONE who interviews him (ask Dan Patrick about that.)  But let's not pretend that Rome was asking that question out of journalistic integrity; it was merely a continuation of the same stupid dog-whistle sports talk radio shtick that he has been using for the past 20 years.

I didn't say he was asking out of serious journalistic integrity.  I said he was asking to appease the dumber segment of his audience.  Stern should know that not talking about is worse than giving a canned answer.  These interviews are almost all canned answers anyway, so not mentioning it will just encourage the morons to claim they're avoiding the issue.  Not that it's a real issue, but it's perceived to be by a lot of people, and in PR perception is reality.  Considering the only reason Stern goes on these shows is for PR, he should not have let it bother him.

 

There are a lot of broken sarcasm detectors out there.....

 

At any rate, even if Rome was actually looking for an answer, there is no excuse for Stern to come out of the gates so butthurt about what is actually a reasonable topic.

 

Here's a stretch: Answer the question in a mature manner, expose it through logic for the weak faulty-logic conspiracy that it is.

 

Rome gave Stern a chance to do just that.

 

Unfortunately, Stern went on a bizarre character attack against Rome...and I'm not even talking about the ludicrous wife-beating remark.

 

Honestly, after seeing how Stern has handled this line of questioning over the years, it makes me more inclined to believe that he is hiding something.

 

Final note: Why is that if Simmons or any other journalist asks Stern about league conspiracies, it's a great interview...but if Rome does it, it's TMZ Land?

Probably because of this.

 

Woah!  Is that Simmons as in Bill Simmons?  They're basically in the same category.

 

People are jumping on Rome because they know that this is all shtick; Rome, Cowherd, Chris "Mad Dog" Russo and their like pull these shenanigans because they know it draws attention to their shows, not because they honestly think that they will gain any insight through an honest answer.

 

And please don't think that I agree with Stern's arrogance during interviews. I just hate shock jocks more.

 

EDIT:  And it is funny how that video is nearly 20 years old and it STILL encapsulates everything that Jim Rose is about.

it's a flopping thing. Miami is so talented, yet they resort to bush league tactics. I am a showtime Lakers fan, so always had love for Riles...but watching Miami try to act their way to victory just disgusts me.

Heat lose again, is their head coach gone?

Funny, Stern gave Rome exactly what he wanted: headlines. Not a smart move from a guy with a lawyer's background.

 

As for Lebron, he was not going to win in Cleveland. Jordan never won before Pippen emerged, and Cleveland never found even a destitute-man's Pippen. So Lebron picked his Pippen. If you put Jordan in the same situation, you think he'd stay with a team with a roster that bad and no titles? Throw in no Phil Jackson and a dick for an owner (an issue that almost drove Jordan away from Chicago even with the rings). 

 

And if you dislike Miami for flopping, then this finals is a no-win, because I've seen more flops from OKC (especially Harden) than anyone else this playoffs.

 

Jordan would have never, ever teamed up with, say, Magic Johnson.  He would have never teamed up with another player widely considered to be among the top 5 in the game.  Why?  Because he wanted to beat those guys.  Kobe was the same way.  Could he do it on his own?  No.  No player can.  Kobe needed Gasol and a crew of solid role players.  But Kobe drove Shaq out of town because he wanted to be the top dog, he wanted to show he could do it without the guy considered to be the most dominant player in the game.

Lebron bitched out.  Fans want to see competition not collusion among the best players in the league.

Of course LeBron could have won in Cleveland.  You're telling me you can't build a team via free agency?  Miami did.

 

(Plus, technically they could have drafted better.  The year after they drafted LeBron they could have had Al Jefferson.  A couple years later they only would have needed to trade up a few spots to grab Rondo.  A couple years after that they could have drafted Serge Ibaka.  Etc...)

 

You're right, the hype wasn't thrust upon them. However, it's no different than essentially any other contending team. If you asked the Spurs or the Lakers or the Bulls or the Celtics (etc.) what their goal was every year, they would say an NBA championship, and anything less is failure. That's the attitude of every team. Boston was certainly championship or bust, they had TV commercials about what the nickname of their new "Big Three" should be. Yes, at a giant press conference surrounded by adoring fans, Lebron said they would win a bunch of titles. News flash: players say crazy things ALL THE TIME. Rarely is it taken as seriously as it has been with the Heat.

 

They've become identified with flopping because people don't like them, not the other way around. It's an epidemic in the league, and there's no way you can convince me that Lebron flails and flops any more than Kobe, or argues calls any more than Duncan. It's everywhere, people just choose to see it where they want to and ignore it where they don't. It's basic bias confirmation.

 

 

Again, why should you have to wait for the end of your career to try and get one ring? Why is that acceptable, but it isn't acceptable to leave a franchise that has bungled basically every move since drafting you in order to go to a more talented team so you don't waste your prime toiling with terrible teammates?

 

Look, you can love who you want to love and hate who you want to hate, that's everyone's right as a fan. I'm just saying it's ridiculous and illogical. Again, that's everyone's right, but don't pretend it makes sense. I get hating The Decision, which was a huge PR blunder, but this whole "they didn't build the team the right way" is just silly.

 

Essentially what you're saying is, "because Lebron James is so good, he is not allowed to choose to go play with other really good players", which is dumb.

 

 

People make this case a lot. "Bird and Magic never would have decided to team up together." It's not at all the same though. All those guys played with multiple Hall of Famers. None of them needed to team up with other great players, because they had them on their team already. The best players Lebron played with in Cleveland were, in some order, Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. That's a far cry from your Pippens, McHales and Kareems.

 

 

The Heat have, so far, delivered in every playoff series but 1. They assembled a team and have made 2 consecutive NBA Finals', which is somehow being deemed a colossal failure, despite the fact that they still have an excellent chance to win this year. The only thing they have failed to do, to this point, is win a championship in their first year together, and they came pretty darn close to doing so. Both this year and last, they've been among the league's best defensive teams, despite not having good big men, because they rotate exceptionally well and James and Wade are the rare superstars who are great on both ends. They may not have an offense predicated on "unselfish ball movement" (though James is one of the most unselfish superstars in the league), but you know what else? They're also a WAY better offensive team than Boston.

 

Everybody likes to have a villain to root against, and if you want to hate the Heat, more power to you. Just don't pretend it makes much sense.

 

I'm not saying a player has to.  I'm saying that, from the fan's perspective, he let his city down in a way that 12 year vets on non-playoff making teams didn't when they went somewhere else.  It's not the same situation as Boston's big three because the perception is he gave up on a 61 win squad in the prime of his career (regardless of if he was the reason for 40 of those wins), whereas the perception for KG was "win one while you still can, you've given us your all in Minnesota and we're not anywhere close right now anyway."

 

And then he rubbed their noses in it.

My hate makes sense, and stop putting up straw men to argue otherwise.  Lebron, Wade and Bosh were "allowed" to go wherever they wanted, however they wanted.  Even ignoring how they went about it, what put a bad taste in peoples' mouths was the anti-competitive nature of the three teaming up.  It's the same reason everyone outside New York hates the Yankees, though it's even worse in this instance because Basketball is easily the most star-driven professional sport.

 

Again though, why is it somehow more acceptable if Lebron spends his whole prime toiling with worse teammates than Allen or KG had? The Cleveland organization had let Lebron down. They failed to build a decent team around him, and had completely squandered all their cap space. There was no way, short of a miracle, that the team was going to improve any time soon. Why is it wrong for Lebron to go somewhere else (again, outside of the way he chose to do it, which I agree was bad).

 

 

It's not at all the same as the Yankees. The Yankees have a massive competitive advantage because they have way more money to spend than everyone else and the MLB CBA allows them to take advantage of this. Basketball has a salary cap that largely prevents that particular type of competitive advantage, this is a situation where Miami happened to have enough cap space to sign two big stars. What you're objecting to here is not the same as the Yankees, what you seem to be objecting to is the fact that the players, not the franchise, made the decision, and I see no justification for that being a problem. Also, again, there is nothing more "anti-competitive" about this than Boston's Big Three.

Fuck LeBron and fuck the Heat. Dwayne Wade is a bitch.

 

1) Because it's not a foregone conclusion the supporting cast would always be that bad.

 

2) Because at the time nobody knew how much KG had left in the tank, and there's really no point trying to build from a sub-.500 team around a dude who might be done in 2-3 years.  LeBron's Cavs didn't have nearly as far to go to contend for a title with him on it as KG's team did with KG on it, and he had a minimum of 7-8 more years in him in which to win.  It's pretty easy for me to see why one fanbase would be fine with their player's move and the other sour.

It's not "wrong" in any sort of moral or legal sense for a star player in his prime to bail on his hometown squad when they are performing respectably (tastelessness of renting out an hour of primetime TV to rub it in aside).  But it's not illogical to have more respect for a star who wins by elevating a squad of role players or building up a franchise over time than one who does by jumping ship to a prefabbed superhero squad in one of the worst sports towns in the country.  And that's assuming they win the thing.

I'd want to mention my my "love" for Erik Spoelstra, and how this ties to Lebron.

Spoelstra might end up working in a Home Depot, because of terrible decision making on his part. Lebron, Wade, Bosh. 3 great players. Thing is, 3 wheels moving on a tricycle might be moving, and the tricycle will move. It might be a little haphazard, but it will move. Now when you have someone who can coordinate all three wheels to move together, you will have a movement in one particular direction. Now Spoelstra is supposed to be that guy, getting these 3 going together, running over everyone with his Miami Heat Tricycle of Doom. He isn't.

This also bringing it back around to the players. Are they just waiting for Spoelstra to start leading? Are they self centered enough they believe that they need Spoelstra to do his job properly so they can do theirs?

Now let me bring up the Van Gundy situation in Orlando. At what point should players call the shots over staff such as the coach? I believe never.


PS: Take a shot every time you see Erik Spoelstra with his hands on hips looking worried. I'll call the hospital at the end of the half.

 

1) After 7 years of astonishingly bad moves and bungled salary cap, I think it's pretty safe to say that Cleveland's front office was not going to provide much help. Maybe they would miraculously pluck a Chauncey Billups off the scrap heap, but those moves happen very rarely.

 

2) That's all well and good for Cavs fans. I can completely understand that Cavs fans might be pissed. Again, I don't think it's entirely logical to blame the guy, but for Cavs fans I can completely understand why they would hate Lebron. What I don't think makes sense is why everyone else hates him for it, as if he has somehow broken some higher law of basketball.

Other fans hate it for pretty much the same reasons Cavs fans hate it... just to a lesser degree.  All I am saying is, there was next to no animosity for what KG did, and to me it's easy to see why James' situation was different.  LeBron was better, a lot younger, and already on a team with 60+ wins.  Plus the Celtics had to get rid of the fifth pick in the draft to get Allen.  The point being the two "Big threes" and how each team acquired them are different enough to understand why some people would root against the Heat a heck of a lot more than Boston.

 

1) People don't have less respect for the Heat though, they hate them. For the sports public at large, it isn't about degrees of respect, it's about hate. People act as though the Heat have committed some heinous act by banding together, and so it is your responsibility as a basketball fan to root against them.

 

2) Plenty of guys go their whole careers trying to elevate squads of role players and building up a franchise and never do get enough help to win a title, and we label them "losers" and "choke artists". That's what KG was before going to Boston. That's the perception of Chris Webber and Karl Malone, and a host of other guys, and Lebron never had nearly as much help as any of them did. If you never do win a title (which is something that takes not just a great team, but a considerable amount of luck), then you don't get more respect, you go down as someone who couldn't quite make it. To me, it's silly to hate Lebron for going somewhere he had a better chance of winning (especially when all he's heard his entire career is that he couldn't win the big one). Saying "man, I kind of wish that Lebron had won a title in Cleveland, cause it's cool when a guy stays somewhere his whole career," sure, I get that. Rooting against the Heat at every turn because of it? You've lost me there.

 

Some fans like rooting against the big dog.  It's as legit a reason as rooting against the Yankees for signing the big free agents.  Maybe you don't do that, but as far as sports fan reasoning goes, it's consistent.

And by the way, even if LeBron did get dealt a worse hand than some other superstars; other than KG, and Shaq (who is far from beloved by many fans) has there been any title winning superstar in the last 30 years who didn't win them with his original team? Michael, Larry, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem, Dirk, Wade, Isiah, Kobe, etc...?  Even if it's not entirely fair, it's what decades of NBA fans have become used to.

SomethingClever, is this your first encounter with sports?  It's a solid 65% hate, almost all of it arbitrary.  Is it really more logical to hate a player for beating your team square on the court than for handling PR shit poorly or just kind of seeming like a douche?

I wrote an NBA blog for 3 years, I'm well aware of the ridiculous things sports fans will believe. I completely acknowledge that there is a ton of arbitrary hate in being a sports fan. I just think Miami is a particularly interesting case. It isn't some rivalry thing, or a "they've been on top for a long time, so nobody wants to see them win", or having more money than everyone else. Everyone outside of Miami hates them, and there's this narrative that they're the bad guys because they went about putting their team together in "the wrong way". I just think it's interesting, and I like poking at it. I also think it's interesting how it pertains to the perception of Lebron, who, as I've expressed before, I think has been unfairly maligned throughout his career.

There's a difference between picking a team to root against, and twisting everything a guy does into a hypocritical reason to bash him. I can root against New England without dissecting Tom Brady's every move looking for flaws. The criticism of Lebron veers into pettiness far too often for my tastes.

 

We'll never know who Jordan or Magic or Bird would've played with, because all three were fortunate enough to be picked by teams that would surround them with one or more HALL OF FAME teammates. It's easy to say they'd never go play with a player as good as Wade, when they already had guys as good as Wade on their team.

There's also the fact that the Cleveland scenario is a writ-large expression of the "not a closer" narrative.  Of course the guy who doesn't show up in the 4th quarter and doesn't want the ball with game on the line abandons a team that was getting to the finals and not winning to play with some stars who can carry him over the hump.

 

Talking about perception, not reality here.  But everything he's done plays into the narrative that he has the talent and ego of a Jordan or Magic, but lacks the heart or intangible whatever-the-fuck that actually gets the job done.  You can make a logical argument why he hasn't been able to deliver on the big stage at this point in his career, but again, it's sports.  If it makes intuitive sense it doesn't need to make sense-sense.

I don't mind Lebron leaving Cleveland. If he tried to elevate his game and inspire the people around him to be better, it would of been better. Okay so eventually enough is enough. Then he televises his decision. Then they give a WWF entrance to their Heat's big 3. Then he has trouble making change for a dollar*. No proper leadership. If you show off, better back it up.


*only 3 quarters.

It really is the culmination of a lot of things that makes me dislike the Heat. I was actually predisposed to liking the team as Riley will always be the coach whose team I grew up rooting for. I rooted for Dwayne Wade in the finals against Dallas the first time. It took a lot of things to make me actively dislike the Heat.

 

1. Not one, not two , not 3..........the arrogance shown in this moment will forever haunt that team (it helps that Barkely repeated that mantra every time he talked about the heat that first year).

2. Lebron's dissappearence in the Finals last year. After his act against Boston the preceding year, it is starting to look like a trend. This years amazing playoff performance can end this perception, but only if Lebron continues to have great games in the finals and possibly a couple of great 4th quarters.

3. Dwayne Wade breaking Kobe's nose in the all star game....seriously WTF is that? You trying to send a message about how hard you are now?  People killed Artest for the Harden elbow (deservedly so), Dwayne deserves some shit for this one.

4. The flopping is a step above everyone else, did you see Chalmers pretend to get hit in the throat and then fall to his knees and call timeout to try to sell it?  Was really funny when they showed the replay and they cut away reall quick and dropped it. I am glad Van Gundy has spoken out against flopping in general....but he still is under orders to protect the league and not make it look too bad....that is why you dont see that clip over and over. Lebron is a flopping machine. I especially loved the one against Indiana where he grabbed the other players arm, hit himself in the head with it, then threw up his arms ripping his own headband off in the process, stumbled around drunkenly and then berates the ref for not giving him a call. Lebron is so damn talented, and he resorts to those type of bush league tactics?  I know players flop, hell DFish has made a career out of it, but Miami's flopping is over the top.

 

All in all,  it is a combination of arrogance, entitlement and looking for the extra advantage from the refs that have soured me on this team.

 

2) You know his performance in that Boston series was no worse than Kobe's performance against Boston that same year, right? The difference is that Kobe had good enough teammates that the Lakers were able to win even though Kobe played poorly. So, despite the fact that they posted very similar numbers (Kobe scored a couple more points a game, Lebron shot a better percentage and had a shit-ton more assists) against the same team, Lebron gets labeled as a "choke artist" and Kobe gets a Finals MVP. It's all about perception.

 

3) Please. Wade reached over top of Kobe, made a play on the ball, and made sure to foul so that Kobe couldn't go up for the shot. It's no more malicious a foul than you'll see at least 5 times in any given game. Kobe happened to get caught in the nose, it happens. People killed Artest because he very clearly ran into Harden, knew he was there, cocked his elbow and slammed it back into Harden's head. It was malicious, dangerous, and had nothing to do with the game of basketball. Wade made a basketball play and Kobe happened to get hurt. Nobody made a big deal about it because it isn't a big deal.

 

4) Again, you're seeing what you want to see. I absolutely guarantee you that there's no way Lebron flops more than any other superstar. Are we forgetting how Kobe got suspended a few years back because his habit of throwing out his arms after jumpers looking for contact ended up smashing Manu in the face? Everyone is looking to get an advantage from the refs, and superstars know they can get calls if they contort their bodies, so they do so. This has always happened, will always happen, and Lebron and the Heat are no different. You look at anyone whose game involves getting a lot of FTs (Kobe, Manu, Harden, Wade, James, etc), and you're going to see a ton of flopping, because it works.

Not aimed at anyone in here, but among the general bar going public who watch/comment on sports, I equate Heat haters with Yankee and Cowboy fans: Bandwagon City.  Obviously all those groups have the real deal, but most of the ones I run into are the other kind.

Hating on a big dog in sports is a totally different thing than becoming a fan of same.

2) yep, Kobe did have a terrible game 7 against the Celtics, luckily his teammates picked him up. If the Lakers had lost that game Kobe would be getting killed. - but there is a difference, Kobe had produced time and time again in chamionship play. He did not shrink from the moment, he failed in the moment....two entirely different things. But again, he did enough to help his team win. Is Lebron a statisticly better player than Kobe? Yes, is Lebron a better athlete than Kobe? Hell yes. Is Lebron more of winner than Kobe? Not now, maybe down the road...but the clock is ticking.

 

3) Your correct, I should not of equated those two plays....Artest's has no place in basketball. Wade's play was in an all star game, if it was a playoff game.....them's the breaks, in an all star game it was completely out of place and Wade's response afterwards indicated a measure of intention in it. I am sure that I view things through my Laker purple glasses, but there it is.

 

4) I am seeing what I am seeing, yes there is flopping in the NBA, yes Kobe got technicals and even a suspension (if I remember it right) for flailing his limbs after shots. I also remember that Kobe's flailing was highlighted nightly on sportscenter and in other basketball media, whereas Lebron and the Heat's antics are swept under the rug, you can see in almost any heat game a collection of flops and acting that is unparallelled in the league.

 

Yeah.  I mean, isn't the idea of a bandwagon hater kind of an oxymoron?  You're "supposed" to hate bandwagon fans, and the teams they're on the bandwagon of.

Spoelsta's new job:

Wow, what a block by Ibaka. You can probably count the guys capable of blocking Lebron at the peak of his jump on one hand.

This has been one of the most amazing finals games I have ever seen. Battier is driving daggers into every Thunder rallly but the kids keep on coming.  Games like this are why I watch basketball.