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Luck - Page 2

post #51 of 104
2/7/12 at 1:32pm

There's something really effective about the gambling scenes. They're exciting and suspenseful, and despite the fact that I barely know these characters I genuinely want to see them win -- particularly Jerry and Kevin Dunn. It's weird to give a shit about TV characters that early in the game.

 

I'll totally own up to not knowing what at least half of the cast is saying half of the time, though. Ortiz or Nolte alone would be fine, but combined it renders huge chunks of the show nigh indecipherable.

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post #52 of 104
2/7/12 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 

Great second episode. 

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post #53 of 104
2/10/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotai View Post

BTW, according to PETA a couple of horses have died during the shooting of Luck, but if anyone thinks it was intentional on the part of the filmmakers, I truly doubt it. 


They had to be euthanized after breaking their legs, and the footage was used in the show. Intentional or not, it's unacceptable. I'm out.
 

 

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post #54 of 104
2/10/12 at 1:26pm
Thread Starter 

Where did you read the footage was used in the show?

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post #55 of 104
2/10/12 at 2:16pm

I spoke too soon, my bad -- well, according to an HBO spokesman at least:

 

"While the pilot of the show includes a scene in which a horse breaks its leg and has to be put down, HBO told The Observer that the scene did not include the animal that actually died, but was accomplished using a combination of “trained” movie horses and CGI. The other horse death happened while shooting the seventh episode of the show; both were injured during short race scenes, and not during stunts segments."

 

Still, it's unacceptable, to me, at least.

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post #56 of 104
2/10/12 at 2:40pm
I'm shocked that in this day and age they couldn't operate. Sure, they might not race again but at least they're alive.
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post #57 of 104
2/10/12 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluelouboyle View Post

I'm shocked that in this day and age they couldn't operate. Sure, they might not race again but at least they're alive.


I'm not a vet but a little google search brought this up....seems like a viable answer.

 

Quote:
With all of the medical advancements today, it is possible to fix a horses broken leg. It is very spendy and most people can not afford to have this done.

In the past, a horse that was unable to take weight on a leg for any appreciable period of time - such as that required for a fracture to heal - would have to be euthanised. This is because a horse is so heavy and its legs are so fragile. Horses are built for speed - their spindly legs must take close to half a ton of weight. When one of the legs is out of action, the others cannot hold up the horse's weight. It was usually considered more humane to euthanise the horse immediately than to allow it to suffer as one of its other legs broke or ruptured a tendon under the strain.

Modern technology has allowed a lot of broken bones to be repaired, however even if the bone is healed the horse will loose alot of muscle mass and become lame. It is not so much the ability to set the bone, but the ability to hold up the horse while it heals. Slings allow a lot of the horse's weight to be taken by pulleys on the roof. Some horses will not stand in a sling, and particularly highly-strung or temperamental horses may not be suitable candidates for rehabilitation, because they have to stay in a stable many horses become depressed, stressed and develop vices and often become depressed to a point where they stop eating.

The prognosis for a horse with a broken leg is generally good if the fracture is simple and the horse will accept treatment. There is usually permanent lameness and for this reason, horses are sometimes euthanised because it is more economical. A horse that has had a broken leg is no use for competition, only for light riding if that. If the break was a result of a congenital weakness it is no use for breeding either. A mare with severe lameness may not be able to carry a foal, and a stallion that is lame in one hind leg will not be able to stand to serve a mare. Jockey club only registers horses produced by live cover (artificial insemination is not allowed) so this is a problem for racehorses in particular. The huge costs involved to surgically repair a fracture and then rehabilitate the horse mean that it is financial suicide to attempt to save a horse with a fracture if you are not extremely wealthy.

Some fractures, such as compound fractures or fractures of more than one leg, still result in instant euthanasia. Since this question was asked shortly after Eight Belles was put down I will use her as an example. During the 2008 Kentucky Derby, Eight Belles fractured both front legs. She was euthanised because she could not stand while the legs were splinted. However, even if they had gotten her up it would have been far harder for her to be saved. Her front legs would have to have been held off the ground for over a month. The result would have been dubious - and the horse would have suffered immensely. This is why the sad decision to put a horse down is often made after it breaks a bone, as more often than not it is the more humane option.

 

that being said...I'm still somewhat torn.

I'm intrigued by the show and the culture surrounding horse racing and where the story will go but, I find horse racing to be a semi-cruel sport...and yet many of these horses are treated incredibly well...better than how some people are treated.

I don't think the animals were intentionally injured and I do know accidents do happen, but still....?

 

I also don't like idea of circus' or waterpark animals "performing" for people either. IMO, we would be better as a species if we didn't force them to do unnatural tricks for our amusement.  

 


Edited by VTRan - 2/10/12 at 3:12pm
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post #58 of 104
2/10/12 at 3:06pm

I wonder if anything like this happened during the shooting of War Horse? PETA's gotta be on the case.

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post #59 of 104
2/13/12 at 3:29pm

First episode aired last night here.  Very compelling.


Also, Massive Attack for the opening if I'm not mistaken - nice.

 

The leg break was quite brutal, and the direction of it being put down was unbelievably moving.  I'm, not surprised an actual horse was injured during the shooting of the show, they get injured all the time, and if it's leg is broken then that's that (unless it can still sire I suppose).  The Grand National has several deaths a year I believe.

 

I'm certainly not going to give up on the show for it.  Horseracing is brutal.  I believe Nolte intimated that the sire of one of the horses was killed deliberately and that seems about right.  Shergar springs to mind.

 

So as long as it doesn't tread the "we treat all animals ethically in horseracing" line, which I'm sure it won't, then I don't have any issues.  I'm pretty sure given the subject matter that all the horses on the show were exceptionally well treated, otherwise it's a massive lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

For the record I don't like horseracing, I never gamble, and I don't like animal exploitation in general (I refused to go on an elephant ride in Thailand, or go to a Tiger Show, and got stick for it, but fuck that shit) but the sad fact is it does happen, and me not watching a program about one aspect of it isn't going to change that.

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post #60 of 104
2/13/12 at 8:54pm

Next week looks like it will be a huge episode.  I love Gambon.

 

Also, while I like the Massive Effect song I am IN LOVE with the song that played in the previews/the end of each episode In Time by The Revolution and Rich File.  

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post #61 of 104
2/14/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisTheCheese View Post

Next week looks like it will be a huge episode.  I love Gambon.


 

Not sure that will be next week. They keep prefacing the previews with "This season on Luck". They've shown that Gambon clip at least twice now.

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post #62 of 104
2/20/12 at 7:39pm

When I first watched Deadwood, it was the 4th episode, "Here Comes A Man", where I realized I was going to watch this show until its end. I feel the same way about the 4th episode of Luck.

 

It seems that the horse controversy may have turned Chewers off from the show, but the horse-racing sequence in this episode is the best moment in TV this year until Mad Men and Breaking Bad come back on. This is magnificent television.

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post #63 of 104
2/21/12 at 6:38am

The sequence used one of my favorite pieces of movie music, On The Nature Of Daylight, last heard in Shutter Island.  It was a tremendous scene.

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post #64 of 104
2/22/12 at 1:25am

Some random thoughts...

 

I officially have a crush on Rosie.

 

Whenever the camera zooms in on a horse's legs during a race, I get uncomfortable and nervous, especially the slow-motion shots.

 

I am deeply disappointed in the sexual partners the fine-ass women on this show have chosen so far.

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post #65 of 104
2/24/12 at 12:20am

Yep, "Episode Four" is officially where the show finds its legs. All the characters and their respective conflicts just seemed to suddenly gel. I still think the cast is a little too big -- two scenes an episode with some of these characters just doesn't cut it -- but it's really a minor complaint, and a backhanded compliment at that since I'd actually like to get to know most of these guys better in the first place.

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post #66 of 104
2/27/12 at 10:26pm

This is a really strange, but interesting show.  I'm not quite sure what I think of it yet except that I like it.

Honest question: what is up with Milch and the antagonist/henchman platonic life-partners?  Swearengen/Dan and now Chester/Gus.  He's mining that dynamic for something.

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post #67 of 104
2/27/12 at 10:51pm

just had episode 3 and the trailer for episode 4 (Gambon!!).

 

Loving it.  Although I'm still struggling to get one word in ten from Nolte.  He's like Paul Whitehouse playing Rowley Birkin

 

"mumble, mumble, mumble, growl, mumble, mumble, AND THEN THEY BROKE HIS LEGS, mumble, mumble, mumble, growl, mumble"

 

but it's a small complaint as it does force me to pay attention.

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post #68 of 104
3/6/12 at 4:16pm

Man, this show is something else. I have no clue what's going on, but I can't help but watch. There is something captivating about it. 

 

Also: Ted Levine!

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post #69 of 104
3/14/12 at 4:29pm

Show's over guys :(

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post #70 of 104
3/14/12 at 4:33pm

HBO has suspended production on the second season due to the death of three horses.

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post #71 of 104
3/14/12 at 4:33pm

God damn. Was just about to start watching this on HBOGO. Looked like fantastically mature television. I've never seen a moment of the show but this is still a heart-breaker. 

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post #72 of 104
3/14/12 at 4:47pm

Goddamn this is terrible, but I am at the same time so glad to see the showrunners take responsibility for the deaths of the horses and acknowledge that their program is not more important than maintaining the humane treatment of these animals by the film industry. I'm surprisingly emotional about this. It's a really promising show that could've done to great places -- I especially hope Milch can get another show off the ground soon, and that the fantastic lesser-known actors in the cast have gotten enough exposure to fuel a little more time in the spotlight elsewhere.

 

Kudos to Milch and Mann for making the right decision. It really shows that the almost spiritual respect shown towards horses on the show is not simulated.

 

You'd think they could always try and make it into exclusively a casino gambling show, though. There's probably an even bigger market for something like that anyway. I guess Milch was adamant that it stay horse racing-centered, since his past involvement in that community is what drove his conceptualization of the show originally.

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post #73 of 104
3/14/12 at 4:55pm

Damn. This was becoming HBO's next great show. After this, I'm definitely eager to see another Milch / Mann collaboration.

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post #74 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:04pm

Lets hope Game of Thrones has better Luck with it's horses

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post #75 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel View Post

Lets hope Game of Thrones has better Luck with it's horses


No shit.  I'm guessing the handlers on that show just got super nervous.  

 

As for LUCK, there has to be more to this story than HBO is letting on.  Some higher-ups must have caught wind about less-than-ethical practices or something for them to just abruptly cancel the entire show.  Something that made them feel they would not be able to weather the PR storm.    

 

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post #76 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:23pm

From a link I read through Facebook, it sounds like PETA was putting on a lot of pressure.  Not sure if that means anything in Hollywood, but 3 horses dying like that has to be seen by some as a bad omen.

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post #77 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

From a link I read through Facebook, it sounds like PETA was putting on a lot of pressure.  Not sure if that means anything in Hollywood, but 3 horses dying like that has to be seen by some as a bad omen.

 

HBO has a ton of money sunk into the series.  I can't imagine they would toss all that aside unless they really thought they were at fault.  

 

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post #78 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:44pm

I can't imagine how so many horses are dying on this. If it was something like "War Horse" I could see it (with explosions and special effects). The horses on this show just run in a circle. Unless they're excessively older or something I don't see what the cause is.

 

In terms of the show itself, I definitely think it can survive. The actual racing sequences might take up 3 minutes out of every hour. If that. Of course Milch can be a stubborn bastard, so who knows?

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post #79 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:47pm
Thread Starter 

As I understood it, the show was moving to Las Vegas next season.  I can't imagine it would've been too hard to move the stories away from the racetrack  to around the poker table.

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post #80 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:50pm

well shit.

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post #81 of 104
3/14/12 at 5:53pm
Thread Starter 

Meanwhile, Mann moves onto his war photographer series for HBO, and Milch tries his Faulkner series.

 

Until Mann resurrects Miami Vice for HBO - with Josh Holloway as Crockett...

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post #82 of 104
3/14/12 at 6:52pm

Darn. Now we'll never know if Jason Gedrick was gonna win at poker, then lose at poker, then win, then lose, then lose again, then win. Then get cussed out by Kevin Dunn. Then lose at poker.

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post #83 of 104
3/14/12 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by levrock View Post

I can't imagine how so many horses are dying on this. If it was something like "War Horse" I could see it (with explosions and special effects). The horses on this show just run in a circle. Unless they're excessively older or something I don't see what the cause is.

 

In terms of the show itself, I definitely think it can survive. The actual racing sequences might take up 3 minutes out of every hour. If that. Of course Milch can be a stubborn bastard, so who knows?


I'm not familiar with horses but I think that race horses are pretty "high-strung"...perhaps they aren't used to being around so many people on a television set ??

 

 

a quick google...

 

Quote:

 

Breeding the Arabians with English horses created the Thoroughbred, which is used for racing and other sporting events. Hot blooded horses are known for their speed: with lighter bodies and a passion that outstrips other breeds, their quickness makes them ideal race horses. But the same fire that makes them fast makes them high strung or fiery tempered. Hotbloods, often likened to passionate human artists by those who understand their temperaments, can injure themselves in training or racing when their need for speed outpaces their bodies' capacity for endurance. Because they are high strung, hot blooded horses may also be injured when trying to escape from something frightening, when upset at being transported or when faced with a new situation.

 

http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/horses-hotbloods.shtml

 


Edited by VTRan - 3/14/12 at 7:07pm
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post #84 of 104
3/14/12 at 7:36pm
Michael Mann owns.
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post #85 of 104
3/15/12 at 2:41am

I thought they were just suspending all race filming while they investigate.  Not cancelling  the show.

 

Anyway, the horse didn't die during a race.  It died on the way to a stable. 

 

And to keep things in perspective, three horses died in ONE day earlier this week at the Cheltenham racing festival.

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post #86 of 104
3/15/12 at 6:30am

Never watched this, but I know that my father was into it.  I had to break the news to him, and he's pretty disappointed.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel View Post

Lets hope Game of Thrones has better Luck with it's horses

 

Fuck, I hope so.



 

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post #87 of 104
3/15/12 at 7:53am

The most recent death occurred off the track, when the horse was being walked back to its barn by a groom. It reared, fell backward, and injured its head. It's tragic, and possibly preventable with better tending (that groom is no doubt sick over this), but it also just happens, several times a year.

 

PETA's arguing elsewhere that they know, via necropsy reports and "caring whistleblowers," that one of the retired racehorses that died was so arthritic it hadn't raced in years, and the other was so sore it was juiced with massive cocktails of painkillers, muscle relaxants, and anti-inflammatories. But who knows whether that's bullshit; as horrible as that would be if true, I find it hard to trust the word of PETA these days. That the showrunners are so willing to shut down without protestation tells me their hearts are in the right place.

 

Anyway, it was a high-quality show and one of my favorite casts this year, but it was always a risky idea.

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post #88 of 104
3/15/12 at 9:09am

Putting aside the horse deaths for a moment...in some other things I have read, the ratings weren't very good for the show.

Now, I take any reported 'official' ratings with a huge grain of salt but outside of critics praising the show, I haven't really read/heard any viewer buzz about 'Luck'. Even here on the Chud Forums, there hasn't been a huge amount of "WOW, everyone needs to watch this show, it's amazing!!"

 

I watched the 1st episode of Luck and most of the 2nd, but it just kinda drifted away....the acting is great and the dialogue is well written but I just haven't been able to really identify with any of the characters. Perhaps this outlook is being shared by more of the viewing public and we're looking at more of a "John from Cincinnati" than "Deadwood" here.

 

Speaking of Deadwood, I didn't start watching Deadwood until the 3rd season was being broadcast....anyone know, was Deadwood a big hit for HBO right from the start or did it slowly catch on?

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post #89 of 104
3/15/12 at 4:55pm

Deadwood was never a big hit, since it was canceled after its third season. 

 

However, I do think Deadwood is easier to jump into than Luck because it has the surface-level trappings of a genre we're used to. Even as I was mesmerized by the show, Luck kept me baffled for large stretches as I tried to unscramble the horse racing jargon. Ultimately, though, I caught up (admittedly after rewatching the pilot), and I think it's pretty wonderful. 

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post #90 of 104
3/15/12 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluelouboyle View Post

And to keep things in perspective, three horses died in ONE day earlier this week at the Cheltenham racing festival.



Well sure, if that perspective is "that's still fucking awful".

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post #91 of 104
3/15/12 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 

I think Luck really picked up for folks with the introduction of Gambon as a clear villain.  But I will miss the four amigos - those guys were gold.

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post #92 of 104
3/15/12 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotai View Post

 But I will miss the four amigos - those guys were gold.



Yeah, they were the best. Especially Renzo.

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post #93 of 104
3/16/12 at 5:21pm

Bad news for Luck. Good news for HBO's new documentary series Horse Murder.

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post #94 of 104
3/16/12 at 8:05pm

To those who brought up Game of Thrones - had this happened to that series, a series far more compelling, popular, and money-making than Luck ever would or could be (at least to the general public), I doubt things would be the same. Luck had the makings of a largely indecipherable series that was never going to be a hit for HBO. I think this must have factored into HBO's decision making. 

 

If GoT killed a few horses, HBO would not have cancelled it, but rather cut down on the use of horses, CGI them, anything but cancel such a lucrative property. 

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post #95 of 104
3/16/12 at 11:50pm
No way you could CGI the horses in LUCK. It would look ridiculous.

And Raindog, my point was that horses die all the time at normal racetracks. Obviously it's awful, but it happens. A lot. There's no indication that this horse died because of the filming, if in fact they were filming at the time.
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post #96 of 104
3/19/12 at 3:54pm
Thread Starter 

This last episode was terrific.  Felt horrible as the body parts went into the Pacific.  Loved the mano a mano with Hoffman and Gambon.

 

Will miss this show a lot.

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post #97 of 104
3/19/12 at 5:23pm

Yeah, it sucks that this thing is getting cancelled just as its momentum was starting to build. I wonder how many episodes they shot of Season 2, and if we'll ever see any of them. Probably not. Guess it'll be a big insurance write off.

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post #98 of 104
3/21/12 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 

Terrific interview with Milch and Mann about the whole thing.

 

http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/michael-mann-david-milch-interview-luck-horses-cancellation.html

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post #99 of 104
3/25/12 at 10:27am
Thread Starter 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html?_r=1&hp

 

Great -and horrifying- article on racing in North America.  Puts things into context.

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post #100 of 104
3/27/12 at 8:21am

Anybody catch the finale? I thought it was wonderful. A shame that we won't get the chance to see the show continue. I'm convinced it would have only gotten better.

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