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M. Night Shyamalan...no seriously

post #1 of 105
Thread Starter 

I remember seeing The Sixth Sense and being deeply impressed, not by the movie necessarily, but by the very obvious imprint by it's director and writer.


That was the year before I moved to Los Angeles to pursue filmmaking.  I'd only started seriously studying directors about 3 years earlier.  I loved movies but I was mostly a Hollywood movie fan, independent films and the influence of the filmmaker was new stuff to me so it was exciting.  I remember meeting Eduardo Sanchez at a screening of Blair Witch in Orlando.  It just felt really possible I could make it too.

And here was this new voice that not only impressed me, but showed that people of color could actually get a movie made with a decent budget without it being about their perceived culture (a hood film by a black director, a martial arts movie by an Asian, etc).  I'm black and I've never identified much with my "culture", though I do respect it.  Every time I would tell someone I wanted to be a filmmaker, they assumed Spike Lee was my idol or something.  That really annoyed the shit out of me because I don't like limitations being placed on me.  My idols were Spielberg, Lucas, and later Tarantino, the Coens and Soderbergh...I liked some of Lee's work, but felt he was a bit too militant in his perspective and obsessed with race relations.

Anyway, as I moved to LA I followed Shyamalan's career with great interest.  I didn't much care for Unbreakable (felt it was slow for the sake of being slow, and a little too dour), but I did recognize the skill that went into making a very good film...Shyamalan, wrote, shot and edited his movies very much unlike contemporary Hollywood was doing at that point...he was the anti-Michael Bay and that was thrilling.  I felt like he really GOT the nature of cinema, much like Hitchcock and Fellini and was using it to it's full potential.

Signs brought my faith back.  It's still one of the best and scariest times I've had in a theater.  When the alien walks across the alley in the kid's birthday video, I actually screamed, something I've never done before or since in a theater.  It has its flaws, but I feel it's the height of Night's directorial skill.  And when I was having trouble making it in Hollywood, I would go back to the well of Night, reading about him, watching behind the scenes, to renew my faith.

The Village was troubling...it's when the first signs that something was seriously wrong started to become apparent.  The movie was fine up until the ludicrous ending, which didn't work at all with the information the audience had at that point.  How could Night judge his ending (and as a result, the entire film) so poorly?  Every director has a misfire, several usually, so I shrugged it off and awaited the next release.

I honestly don't remember why I skipped Lady In The Water upon release.  I think it was probably because of the critical drumming the film took and I didn't want that coloring my reaction.  Plus I'd read the book The Man Who Heard Voices, which is kind of a scathing indictment of Night...but at the time I just enjoyed it as an in depth look at the film business and appreciated all it revealed about Night's process.

When I finally did see Lady, I was in shock.  I still, to this day, have not finished the movie.  It's too painful to watch.  Lady is not only a terrible film, it's an indication Night may have either been switched with a lesser talented double, or sold his soul to the devil to gain his success.  It's as if someone else made the movie.  Everything that was wrong with the ending of The Village, was spread through this entire movie.  Whole sequences were shot incompetently...angles were missing that would be standard for any other film.  I know Night likes to edit in camera like Spielberg and John Ford and Soderbergh, giving scenes more dramatic and emotional weight and nuance (a technique I agree with), but this time, he took it too far. 

 

I was one of Night's biggest champions before Lady.  I would defend him against "haters" out for blood, making fun of his name, calling him a hack.  I chalked it up to jealousy, racism, immaturity, whatever.  But I'd now seen the light.  Had these people seen something in Night I'd been ignoring for so long? 

 

I kind of stopped thinking about Night after the Lady fiasco, because it was too painful.  I know it sounds like I'm exaggerating, talking as if about some long lost love, but I do love movies, and I take my heroes very seriously.  If Spielberg ever nosedived this severely, I'd need to go to therapy.

 

Then The Happening...happened.  I didn't see it upon release, but I was able to see some of it on dvd. Again, I couldn't finish the movie.  I just couldn't.  It was not only bad, it was stupefyingly bad...it was as if Night had become completely tone deaf.  The performances were wretched, but all the actors are good to decent, so it had to be Night directing them into oblivion.

 

When Last Airbender came out I hadn't thought much about Night in years.  The only reason I wanted to see it was because my roommate's friend had a small part in it.  But she was eventually cut from the film.  I didn't think Night could get worse, but he did.  How, I have no idea.  It was as if he was willfully making a bad movie just to show people he could and have it still make hundreds of millions, which it did.  Every scene was laughable...beyond laughable, existentially humiliating to watch as a film of not only Night, but cinema.  It was a big budget Corman movie.

 

I honestly want answers as to what happened to this man.  What got to him?  Money?  Power?  Fame?  A double?  Is his head really so far up his ass that he can't spot a bad decision when he sees it?  I'd heard the theory of the artist inside a bubble, so off in his own world, he refuses to listen to reason and surrounds himself with yes men... mostly from George Lucas stories, but this was absurd. 

 

I've seen Night talk about filmmaking technique.  He knows his shit.  His career is not a fluke...you can't make his first three films on a fluke.  So I ask, again, what the fuck happened to this man?



 

post #2 of 105

Fascinating thread. 

 

Sixth Sense was obviously a very impressive beginning. Unbreakable was even better, more challenging and subtle (and at the same time not really subtle at all, but in that context it worked).

 

Signs is where we diverge. While I initially enjoyed it, upon revisiting it I find it difficult to get through. I think it's the faith angle. It just rings so false. Especially with Mel Gibson in the lead performance. 

 

The rest were garbage. Happening is so bad it's surreal. Never saw Lady in the Water but I heard he cast himself as a writer whose ideas save the universe. I think that probably sums up what went wrong with him. 

post #3 of 105

I didn't see Last Airbender, but wow, it's worse than The Happening? The Happening is one of the most stunningly bad movies I've seen in  the past decade, as if Ed Wood was given a huge budget. "It was just tiramisu!"

 

I got the sense that Airbender was just bad and inert, while The Happening is a Wiseau-esque personal statement that gives me guffaws from start to finish.

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

Quote:
Signs is where we diverge. While I initially enjoyed it, upon revisiting it I find it difficult to get through. I think it's the faith angle. It just rings so false. Especially with Mel Gibson in the lead performance. 

The faith angle was clunky, but didn't bother me. I was much more bothered by the fact that aliens killed by water would attack a planet that's 75% water.

post #4 of 105
I think it's a combination of ego and poor decisions. Who knows, maybe he also ran out of ideas. I also agree with you the the Village is actually a really good film up until the ending.

My best theory is that he spent a lot of time on first three films. I'm sure, like all aspiring filmmakers, he had several stories he was working on for multiple years before he was able to find someone to produce his genius script, the Sixth Sense. Yes I will stand by the statement. Watch the film again, there is NO fat in it, every detail is important, every scene is necessary, and every loose end is tied up. Ignore the "surprise" ending and the film would still be a complete, satisfying story.

Anyway I think he had a lot of time to sketch out Unbreakable, Signs and probably parts of the Village before he was being billed as the messiah of suspense by the media. By the time he got to the Village and tacked on that bad ending he was out of ideas and now with an ego so huge that he thought he was infallible (remember the Village did pretty well at the Box Office).

I think he forgot that hard work is what made his films & scripts good. Since then he has just instantly began producing every first draft he punched out certain that rewrites and outside opinions were unnecessary.

-edit

I do agree that Signs is a weak entry, but for some reason I still find it very watchable. I think its that the plot is still pretty sketchy, but the actually story (character arcs) and family unit worked and then when you add a strong cast it is easy to gloss over the thinly veiled Christian subtext. Though I'll admit it is harder now to overlook it because of all the shit Mel Gibson has said since.
post #5 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham View Post
I heard he cast himself as a writer whose ideas save the universe. I think that probably sums up what went wrong with him. 


Yeah, he did.  I can't remember how he justifies that choice in the book, but it reeks of self importance, and he's probably not even aware of it.  There's nothing wrong with a healthy ego, but even Tarantino had the good sense to stop casting himself in his movies for the sake of the movies themselves. 

 

So maybe his downfall is the result of being blinded by self importance, with people kissing his ass left and right and being the highest paid screenwriter in history, a title he still holds ($7 million for The Village script), and all the money and fame, blinding him so much he can no longer recognize a good idea from a bad one.

 

I remember Charlie Sheen saying that nothing can prepare you for fame.

post #6 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim K View Post

I think it's a combination of ego and poor decisions. Who knows, maybe he also ran out of ideas. I also agree with you the the Village is actually a really good film up until the ending.
My best theory is that he spent a lot of time on first three films. I'm sure, like all aspiring filmmakers, he had several stories he was working on for multiple years before he was able to find someone to produce his genius script, the Sixth Sense. Yes I will stand by the statement. Watch the film again, there is NO fat in it, every detail is important, every scene is necessary, and every loose end is tied up. Ignore the "surprise" ending and the film would still be a complete, satisfying story.
Anyway I think he had a lot of time to sketch out Unbreakable, Signs and probably parts of the Village before he was being billed as the messiah of suspense by the media. By the time he got to the Village and tacked on that bad ending he was out of ideas and now with an ego so huge that he thought he was infallible (remember the Village did pretty well at the Box Office).
I think he forgot that hard work is what made his films good and since then has just instantly began producing every first draft he punched out certain that rewrites and outside opinions were unnecessary.

 

Yes, I agree The Sixth Sense script is one of the best genre scripts ever written, right up there with Back To The Future.

 

But here's the thing, he did like 6 drafts of the Lady script...it said so in the book.  And Night seemed to work on it extremely hard.  He spoke of panic attacks and nightmares trying to get it right.  Even more interesting still, there is a moment in the book where Night questions the entire film, that there is some fatal flaw in it and that he's ignoring it.  But he he ignores the "voice" and continues on.
 

 

post #7 of 105
Then it's ego covering up his internal je ne sais quoi. I wouldn't call it a voice of reason, but the voice of doubt he chose to ignore rather than listen to like he did before.
post #8 of 105

I think it may be tied to his also being the writer of his films.  I have seen a great many novelists undergo a severe decline in quality over the years. Think of it like this.

 

An artist gets an idea or 3, starts developing them in his head, writing and re-writing, polishing and editing until they have something really really good. Then they finally break through and that work they have been developing for years becomes a huge success. Now that same artist has a deadline, they are expected to equal or surpass their previous work in a greatly diminished time frame. Usually the next work is something they had on the back burner (and something they have still put a lot of thought into)....that was Unbreakable to me, nice concept...and he expected to follow it up with sequels which never materialized due to the less than stellar box office performance of that film.

 

That brings us to Signs...which I hated, to be honest I actually prefer the village...but the same thing applies to both. He decided that the success of his films was tied to replicating his formula. He wanted each film to be a mystery and to give clues and shock the audience at the end with his twist. The problem is that the reason the twist worked in his first film was that the audience did not see it coming. After the second film, everyone knew the twist was coming so it had no impact.

 

At that point he was taking a lot of criticism and decided to write a fuck you to the critics....that was Lady in the Water. He decided some made up story he told his kids at bedtime was worthy of being a script because it came from his genius mind. That was the movie that made me give up on him, it was horrible on every level. Since then his career has been a train wreck. I never saw the Happening, but I gave Airbender a chance because it was a break from his formula and my kids liked the cartoon. All I can say is that it must of been one really depressing set. He took a perfectly viable and engaging property, some solid actors and made a movie more horrible than I imagined possible. It was a lifeless thing and was sad to see.

 

Now we have entered a new phase in his career. With the movie Devil, MNS has devolved into the worst type of parody of himself. He cant bring himself to break with his preachy moralism and ridiculous twists. Each new movie he makes is more embarassing than the last. I hope he gets some help, takes some time off and tries something new. He can no longer continue to beat that dead horse that was his formula.

 

edit: Heh, this is what I get for replying to an OP before reading the thread, Tim said it all and said it better.

 

post #9 of 105

M. Night's a strange one. I too was a major fan up till The Village, which was the point where the schtick started overtaking the actual stories.

 

I agree that a large part of his decline can be chalked down to rising ego/being overindulged/reacting badly to fame. Thinking about it however, It occurs to me that Sixth Sense, Unbreakable and Signs have one thing in common: simplicity of concept. The Sixth Sense is about a boy who is tormented by ghosts; Unbreakable is a modern superhero story, Signs a modern alien invasion movie. What made these films work was the fact that he took these simple and well-worn ideas, and put a spin on them that made them feel fresh. In Sixth Sense, the boy has to help the ghosts find rest. Unbreakable melds superhero origin story with domestic drama, while Signs reduces the alien invasion trope to the experiences of one family.

 

After this point, his storytelling style noticeably shifts to more outlandish subject matter with much larger scope. While The Village retains some of the character drama, now it's about an entire village at centre stage encountering events that encompass their entire world. The Happening, which ostensibly focusses on Mark Wahlberg, is more interested its huge-scale wacky plant apocalypse and how it effects its numerous quirky side-characters. Lady in the Water... Well, your guess is as good as mine. Another case of a bunch of forced quirky characters dealing with a blob of huge, fantasical ideas with little sense of focus.

 

I avoided The Last Airbender, probably because by then M. Night had frankly beaten the fan out of me for good. He strikes me as becoming increasingly in love with his own ideas, rather than using them as the hook from which to hang well-considered character drama, his initial strength. The actual characters feel increasingly gimmicky and shallow with each new film. This, coupled with his determination to shove The Big Twist Ending into every film he makes, has made his work feel increasingly forced. It's like he's too busy screaming, "LOOK EVERYONE! BEHOLD MY MASSIVE AND FERTILE IMAGINATION! LOOK, I'M BEING ORIGINAL!" to actually stop a second and figure out if these glorious little brain-piles actually make any sense.

 

And, the guy seems to have become a progressively bigger dickhead as the years have gone on. Combine that with too little contructive criticism at the most crucial stages, and you get one of genre film's biggest disappointments of the last decade. 

post #10 of 105

I was always under the impression this particular emperor had no clothes - at least in a storytelling capacity. This just seems to be the logical result of massive massive amounts of hubris and believing your own bullshit really.

post #11 of 105
Thread Starter 

Those are some great posts.  I do agree.  If you watch interviews with him, he has a very big ego and supreme confidence in himself and his ideas...which ironically is something you need to have to even survive the Hollywood meatgrinder.  It's that supreme confidence that got him to sell The Sixth Sense script for $3 million...he told his agent not to consider anything under $1 million, that it had to be shot in Philidelphia (in the contract), directed by him, etc. etc.  He did 17 drafts of that script before he sent it out.

 

The problem with the ego thing is it can be your achilles heel if you're not careful.  I also do think he should either start co-writing his scripts, or give the scripting duties to someone else.  Night is co-scripting the Will Smith sci-fi actioner with two other writers, so it seems we have progress.  Soderbergh scripted his first film, but smartly worked with writers after that.  I honestly think Shyamalan is a better director than writer...and can pull some great performances from actors, but I'm seriously questioning his judgement and ability to even do that at this point, seeing as how wretched the performances were in his later films.

 

 

post #12 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

I was always under the impression this particular emperor had no clothes - at least in a storytelling capacity. This just seems to be the logical result of massive massive amounts of hubris and believing your own bullshit really.


The Sixth Sense is great.  Unbreakable is okay, but not terrible.  And Signs is pretty damn good.  Honestly I think Night is super talented, I just think his judgement sucks and is what's ruining him.  He has some great ideas, but is so fixed in how to do them that he's not open to alternatives...he's even said in interviews he storyboards everything, which in itself is not a bad thing, but then he tries to do so much in one shot and kind of paints himself into a corner, because sometimes you need those choices in editing...pretty much 50% of the shots in the Unbreakable are oners (one shot)...that's insane.

post #13 of 105

The Sixth Sense is fun on the first watch, but I've always found the film to be massively over-rated personally. That's just a personal preference.

post #14 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

The Sixth Sense is fun on the first watch, but I've always found the film to be massively over-rated personally. That's just a personal preference.



Yeah, it doesn't have alot of rewatch value IMO, but not all great films do.  I think the twist ending is what kind of ruins it.

post #15 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post



Yeah, it doesn't have alot of rewatch value IMO, but not all great films do.  I think the twist ending is what kind of ruins it.



I think the twist ending gave everyone the idea it was much better than it actually was personally.

post #16 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

I think the twist ending gave everyone the idea it was much better than it actually was personally.



I wouldn't say that IMO. The film is very strong in terms of scares and tone, and I think could've stood alone without the twist ending - perhaps not as the classic it's hailed as, but certainly as a very strong 70s style horror. Ultimately, I think the film's heart is what has made it endure; the relationship between the kid and his mother, Willis's pain over what looks like a growing rift with his wife (Not to mention what we realize about portrayal after the Big Twist, and what she's actually been going through the whole time) It's a film with a lot of heart, and something MNS pulled off effortlessly in those first few films; nowadays he includes these character conflicts, but seems to have lost the ability to make them resonate. Case in point: Marky Mark's marital problems in The Happening, which was clearly shoehorned in when all MNS cared about was how exciting it'd be to watch people running away from the wind.

 

post #17 of 105

FYI, "The Sixth Sense" was his third film. His first was a low budget feature in which he starred as the lead (!?) called "Praying With Anger" and the second was a crappy family comedy called "Wide Awake" starring Rosie O'Donnell (?!) as a nun. It's actually kind of inspiring that he was able to re-invent himself after two under-performers.

 

I think any struggling director would really have to have a flawless sense of character not buy into all the accolades that were being dumped on him after "The Sixth Sense". When "Signs" came out, Newsweek put him on the cover calling him the New Spielberg (link: http://amzn.to/rRt36L ). Especially considering how young he was, he almost can't be blamed for buying into his own press. But, man, the fall was mighty. Best thing he could do is film a script he didn't write. He still has a pretty good eye for shooting, but is totally out of gas as a writer.

post #18 of 105

Yep, I was aware of those first couple of films. Linguistic fart on my part.

post #19 of 105

Eh, I'm not the guy for this thread probably, Shyamalan has struck me from day one as a pretentious low-rent Speilberg with delusions of grandeur - JJ Abrams without the savvy business acumen.

post #20 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

Eh, I'm not the guy for this thread probably, Shyamalan has struck me from day one as a pretentious low-rent Speilberg with delusions of grandeur - JJ Abrams without the savvy business acumen.



I think MNS had a lot of potential, but it was certainly those delusions of grandeur that fucked him in the end. If anything, I think he started fancying himself as more a modern-day Rod Serling which led him to focus more and more on big concepts and twist endings that out-twistied the last one. It was just ironic that he made his name by supplying genre fare with a focus on realism and character, a torch he dropped and which it could be argued was picked up by Christopher Nolan (Whose genre films piss larger amounts of litres on MNS's new stuff with each passing year)

post #21 of 105

Realism yes, I dunno about Nolan and character just yet. He strikes me more as being in Kubrick and Mannes cold and sterile camp than  he is in the Spielberg warm and fuzz funhouse.

 

Not a bad thing, but no, Nolans an heir to Kubrick, Manne and Scott long before The Beard in my opinion.

post #22 of 105

After Sixth Sense and Unbreakable, Shyamalan really disappointed me with Signs.  The whole movie, I just wasn't feeling it.  The tone was good, but the story was too convoluted for me and I never saw it again.  I never saw Lady in the Water or The Last Airbender, and The Happening was atrocious.  I've pretty much given up hope for any future projects of his.

 

However, I really liked The Village and I've never been quite sure of the specifics for why everyone hated the ending so much.  I didn't think it was magnificent or anything but I'd be interested for someone to explain their reasoning for why it's so universally disliked.

post #23 of 105

Yeah, I'm puzzled by the hate The Village's ending gets too. I genuinely like the twist & overall, I thought the film delivered. Opie's daughter was aces & I'd even rank it as M. Night's 3rd best film. Signs, however, is utter tripe. A painfully convoluted & illogical film. Why it gets a free pass, I'll never understand. "Swing away", my ass.

post #24 of 105

 

 

By the time The Village came around people were getting sick of the "having a Twist for a Twist's sake" thing I think. He failed to move forward when the audience was ready, then tried to make up for it with Lady in the Water by having it actually have "magic" behind the events - but it didn't help that he firstly framed it as a children's book (like he was dumbing down for an audience who didn't understand how clever he was) then planted himself in the center as a visionary writer (edit: or even worse, a man who won't be fully appreciated until after he's dead).

 

If the blind girl had stumbled out of the forest into something really startling and original, it would have earned some love. I didn't mind it at the time, but it makes it less interesting to go back and re-watch it. Anyone read any short stories/seen any twilight zones that could have made for a better ending/reveal?

 

 

 

 

post #25 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post

I didn't see Last Airbender, but wow, it's worse than The Happening? The Happening is one of the most stunningly bad movies I've seen in  the past decade, as if Ed Wood was given a huge budget. "It was just tiramisu!"

 


I actually have a soft spot for "The Happening".   I'm not sure if it was intentional or not (probably not), but the movie works on the same level as the "nature goes wild" movies of the 70's.   You know the ones where the bugs declare war on humanity or the spiders declare war on humanity, etc.    I'm not sure if it was the audience who didn't get the point or the director but as bad as The Happening is said to be, it works for me and keeps me entertained.

 

"The Last Airbender" by comparison is horrible on every level.   For one thing, the acting is atrocious.   That's the first thing that hits you.   I'm not using hyperbole when I say that you will find better acting in a High School production of Grease than you will here.   You really will.   The tone of the film is way off.   It's so freaking humorless and po faced from start to finish when it should be fun and light hearted like the cartoon.   And then there's the greatest line in the movie where our hero says in the middle of the battle: "Is there a place I can meditate?"    

 

I keep hoping Shyalaman will get his groove back because he's made some of my favorite movies of the last 15 years.   Maybe he'll wow us with his Will Smith project.   Fingers crossed.

 

post #26 of 105

The real mystery is how Shyamalan seems to consistently get some of my favorite work out of James Newton Howard even when the films are not so good.  It was through Shyamalan's work that I began paying attention to Howard's work at all.  

 

I can't disagree with the criticisms directed towards SIGNS, but the moment Howard's score kicks in, you'll lose me.  I am completely at the film's mercy.  I actually really enjoy the family dynamic in that movie too.  Strong performances in that one.

 

The Last Airbender.  Hahahahahahahaha... slowly floating rock.

875037_o.gif

post #27 of 105

SIGNS is where you realy begin to see M. Night The Director and M. Night The Writer diverge, because large portions of that film are just stunningly staged, scored, shot and acted. The cornfield sequences, the family dinner table, the opening scene with the dog are masterful. And the home video glimpse of the alien remains hair-raising to this day. I can still watch the film because of the high quality craft being put into its creation. But Lordy, that screenplay. Here's where his tendencies to try and outsmart his last film really start to torpedo him. There's no need to try and tie all the threads together here. Hess rediscovering his faith and love for his family should be an organic character growth, not a mechanical series of "gotcha!" moments. And that's without the nuttiness of the aforementioned "aliens invading a planet which can kill them instantly" and "God exists - but not for these alien types" stuff. It's pat, illogical and silly when it should be life-affirming, and that's an absolutely disastrous way to end a film because it flushes away all the good work that went into the set-up.

 

I think after THE VILLAGE, LITW was supposed to be this big return to form for him, and all the critics would acknowledge how wrong they were to knock his previous choices and he would reclaim his throne as Spielberg-In-Waiting. And then LITW was a beautiful-looking catastrophe, and it just broke him. The guy who made the flat, ugly dirges that are THE HAPPENING and AIRBENDER is not the guy who shot those first five films. He's lost all confidence in his visual storytelling skills, when in reality they were always his strongest (only?) attribute as a filmmaker.

post #28 of 105

I just can't suspend disbelief at the endings of his films. In "The Village", I just can't believe they would let a girl who has absolutely no knowledge of the outside world and more importantly, is completely blind, to somehow find her way to getting some antibiotics. Also, how was she supposedly to pay for it? Can someone remind me how she was supposed to deal with that or if that even came up?

 

You'd think one of the founders would have a set of modern clothes they could wear outside the town and could then they cold wander nonchalantly into the antibiotics shop and say "Excuse me, I'd like to buy some antibiotics, please ...".

 

Well, at least I guess this movie came out just in time, Google Maps has made it moot. "Hello, what's this then ...?"

 

As a point in advanced nitpickery, there was no way that the person who needed the antibiotics would have recovered just on oral tablets. He needed serious medical attention and probably surgical intervention at that point and probably at every point since he'd been stabbed.

post #29 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post

As a point in advanced nitpickery, there was no way that the person who needed the antibiotics would have recovered just on oral tablets. He needed serious medical attention and probably surgical intervention at that point and probably at every point since he'd been stabbed.

IIRC one of the "elders" was a pretty good doctor, maybe even a surgeon. Though I agree with you that they would have needed more than just the medicine.

Speaking of the Village, I still love the staging and the reveal of the stabbing scene. That slow look down and pull out of the knife is great. They say that being stabbed for the first time feels like getting punched and you don't know really what has happened until you see it. That scene played out that convention well.
post #30 of 105

Shame about Adrien Brody going full retard. What a spectacularly misjudged performance.

post #31 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim K View Post


IIRC one of the "elders" was a pretty good doctor, maybe even a surgeon. Though I agree with you that they would have needed more than just the medicine.
Speaking of the Village, I still love the staging and the reveal of the stabbing scene. That slow look down and pull out of the knife is great. They say that being stabbed for the first time feels like getting punched and you don't know really what has happened until you see it. That scene played out that convention well.


From my experience, surgeons often don't know that much about medicine (for us, when we say 'medicine', it's a separate division from 'surgery'). They're more about localised problems and removing them. The medical side of things was more my job. Disseminated systemic emergencies aren't really their thing and this would have been a disseminated case of septicaemia at this point. Mind you, this movie was hardly meant to be Gray's Anatomy (no, not the show).


Edited by Shan - 12/16/11 at 6:51am
post #32 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

I've seen Night talk about filmmaking technique.  He knows his shit.



This is undeniably true, but it takes more than technique, and to me the progression of his career has simply revealed what was always the case, which is that he's not the complete package he was initially made out to be, especially in the story department. I wouldn't go so far as to call his early success a total fluke but I tend to agree somewhat with Rain Dog that it's always been a little bit of the emperor's new clothes. And I do suspect that it's also a result of him buying into his own hype. I've been saying this for years, but what he needs to do to resuscitate his image and career is start directing other people's scripts, apply that technique to something a little different, something that's specifically outside his Twilight Zone-y wheelhouse. Unfortunately though it seems like he's still committed to the idea of being a brand, but we'll see. Looking at his IMDb page now it appears his next gig is a sci-fi film he didn't write, so there's a start.

 

post #33 of 105

I do just wanna add that I fucking love THE HAPPENING as a piece of endlessly entertaining so-bad-it's-good cinema. Any film where it appears the director told all the actors to play their parts as if they are child-like aliens who just arrived on earth and are attempting to mimic human behavior has a special place in my heart. I've only seen bits and pieces of LADY IN THE WATER so maybe that's a contender for this honor but THE HAPPENING just seems like M. Night slipping into full on self-parody.

post #34 of 105

Lots of people have said that he needs to direct stuff he didn't write for awhile, and that's true not just because he remains a strong visual stylist, but because having to approach other people's material from the outside may be the best thing for him as a writer.  Give him some perspective and time to develop an idea that he's passionate about into something that makes a modicum of sense.

post #35 of 105

No, THE HAPPENING is amazingly bad. It's the Sistine Chapel of terrible genre films. LITW is a crushing bore compared to it, simply because it gets too much right visually to be truly transcendent in its shonkiness. WIth THE HAPPENING Night apparently set out to ignore every possible film-making instinct he possesses. It's almost like a bizarre, misplaced "fuck you" to the critical response to LITW - in spite of his talents I don't think he understands cinema at all, and he genuinely thought that by doing the opposite of what he had done on his previous movies he would automatically produce a great brainless popcorn film to throw in the establishment's face.

post #36 of 105
Thread Starter 

Night's next film is the Will Smith sci-fi actioner 1000 A.E.  He took Gary Whitta's script and rewrote it to suit his "style".  Stephen Gaghan then came in and rewrote Shyamalan, so maybe we're in good hands.  The film shoots in February.  I think the studios at this point have stopped believing the hype and are forcing Night to be rewritten, which is a good thing. 

 

Night said he was horribly depressed after Unbreakable got bad reviews, so I can't image what the last several years have been like for him.  I kind of feel bad for the guy.  He didn't declare himself the next Spielberg, Hollywood did... and I honestly believe when you make a small film for $40 million and it grosses $670 million and you're nominated for best picture, best screenplay and best director and every single person in Hollywood is taking turns licking your testicles, that HAS to do something to your head.  Not to mention being offered every major property at that point, Superman, Harry Potter, Indy 4, etc etc...  That's an insane amount of success to deal with all in a single year.  Any normal human being would fall prey to something like that.

 

So with all that inflated self importance, of course he thought he was a filmmaking god and was given way too much control.  I do think the critical drumming he took for Lady seriously made him question his talent and it's possible he never recovered from that.

post #37 of 105

I liked a few of his movies well enough. It's a shame about the state of his career, but he absolutely brought it on himself. I've had someone who has been trying to get me to watch LADY IN THE WATER for years. Despite this person usually being a reliable barometer for film quality, I've not been able to bring myself to watch it, and nor do I think I ever will. I don't really care for anyone in the cast, and the reek of narcissism wafting off that project was more than enough to turn my stomach

 

His last films have been generally terrible, though occasionally there will be a well composed shot or a creepy moment that tells me that maybe the guy could get back on track if someone in a position of power strips him of whatever creative autonomy he still  has. The guy is his own worst enemy. He's no genius, he's not that clever, and he needs to understand his calling needs to be focused on gussying up the ideas of others, not bringing his own unique vision to the world


Edited by Princess Kate - 12/16/11 at 12:08pm
post #38 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

Night's next film is the Will Smith sci-fi actioner 1000 A.E.  He took Gary Whitta's script and rewrote it to suit his "style".  Stephen Gaghan then came in and rewrote Shyamalan, so maybe we're in good hands.  The film shoots in February.  I think the studios at this point have stopped believing the hype and are forcing Night to be rewritten, which is a good thing. 

 

Night said he was horribly depressed after Unbreakable got bad reviews, so I can't image what the last several years have been like for him.  I kind of feel bad for the guy.  He didn't declare himself the next Spielberg, Hollywood did... and I honestly believe when you make a small film for $40 million and it grosses $670 million and you're nominated for best picture, best screenplay and best director and every single person in Hollywood is taking turns licking your testicles, that HAS to do something to your head.  Not to mention being offered every major property at that point, Superman, Harry Potter, Indy 4, etc etc...  That's an insane amount of success to deal with all in a single year.  Any normal human being would fall prey to something like that.

 

So with all that inflated self importance, of course he thought he was a filmmaking god and was given way too much control.  I do think the critical drumming he took for Lady seriously made him question his talent and it's possible he never recovered from that.

Unfortunately films that are rewritten for Will Smith usually see a drop in quality from what was initially on the page. Smith is as hack-tastic an actor as there ever has been. I mean, Knight is a mess, but turning his script into another vehicle for Smith and his Big Willie Style isn't really much of an improvement
 

 

post #39 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post '
He's no genius, he's not that clever
 


It's nearly impossible to break into the film business, let alone make a blockbuster from a small character drama/horror movie, and then go on to make two movie fairly good movies that make alot of money.  You certainly need to be clever to pull that off.

 

post #40 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post

Unfortunately films that are rewritten for Will Smith usually see a drop in quality from what was initially on the page. Smith is as hack-tastic an actor as there ever has been. I mean, Knight is a mess, but turning his script into another vehicle for Smith and his Big Willie Style isn't really much of an improvement
 

 



Smith's done far, FAR more great work in his career than Night has.

post #41 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post

Unfortunately films that are rewritten for Will Smith usually see a drop in quality from what was initially on the page. Smith is as hack-tastic an actor as there ever has been. I mean, Knight is a mess, but turning his script into another vehicle for Smith and his Big Willie Style isn't really much of an improvement


Um, nearly every film has a drop in quality when they're rewritten, why you think Will Smith is some special case baffles me.  And Smith is a pretty good actors that turned in some stellar performances in Ali, Pursuit of Happyness and Six Degress of Separation.  He has talent, but he's a brand, and unfortunately focuses on films to keep that brand alive...like many of his fellow A-list actors.  Why you assume this will be a Big Willie style film, whatever that means, is strange to me.  You haven't read the script and I'm assuming you don't even know what it's about considering the premise sounds nothing like a Big Willie style film...which I'm now assuming is something like Bad Boys or Men In Black.

 

And you misspelled Night.

 

post #42 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post


It's nearly impossible to break into the film business, let alone make a blockbuster from a small character drama/horror movie, and then go on to make two movie fairly good movies that make alot of money.  You certainly need to be clever to pull that off.

 



Any good reading resources on how exactly Night managed to pull this feat off? Your story regarding his list of demands to his agent regarding the Sixth Sense screenplay was inspiring to say the least. And how did he get his first two features made? 

post #43 of 105


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post





Smith's done far, FAR more great work in his career than Night has.



 

Hrm??  SMITH was great in ALI. He's got undeniable charisma. He could be the greatest movie star of his generation... and yet he never takes risks. He plays it safe in the most unbearably toothless projects, often taking interesting ideas and getting them reworked for his unique "style" until they're no longer interesting (TONIGHT HE COMES, I AM LEGEND)

 

He is the last movie star. He could get ANYTHING green lit. When Cruise was on top, he worked with the best of the best and sought out challenge

 

Smith has been coasting on auto pilot for a decade. People were talking up his potential casting in DJANGO, and I could only shake my head and laugh. I knew Smith would NEVER go for it. A racially explosive drama? No way would Big Willie risk his white bread audience for even a second on a project like that

post #44 of 105

Smith is exceptionally good in I AM LEGEND. And I don't even like the movie.

post #45 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post


Um, nearly every film has a drop in quality when they're rewritten, why you think Will Smith is some special case baffles me. 

 

 

And you misspelled Night.

 



Because Smith could tell the studio to hire a writer with talent, and instead he gets everything toned down into a toothless mess full of his worn out hijinks. Read about what happened to TONIGHT HE COMES and I AM LEGEND after Smith got involved. Those were not studio dictated rewrites. That was Smith demanding that those scripts be changed to suit his style, and I'm sorry, but it's played out and obnoxious. I'm officially over the guy until he's ready to show up and act again

 

 

As for Knight/Night.. I'll try and remember the spelling next time,  though it would help my memory if he made movies that I cared about. As it is I think till this thread I'd not spent more than 10 seconds thinking about the guy this calendar year

 

 

PS Pursuit of Happyness is an offensive film in it's depiction of poverty and it's causes

post #46 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

Smith is exceptionally good in I AM LEGEND. And I don't even like the movie.



I agree... but the film is terrible, especially with the ending he apparently insisted on

post #47 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham View Post

 

Any good reading resources on how exactly Night managed to pull this feat off? Your story regarding his list of demands to his agent regarding the Sixth Sense screenplay was inspiring to say the least. And how did he get his first two features made? 

 


The book The Man Who Heard Voices is a must for an film fan, and it pretty much shows what went wrong, and all the people Night constantly ignored who tried to help him fix the movie...but he was having none of it.

His first film Praying With Anger was financed (750K budget) from his family and their doctor friends I believed.  It made $25,000 playing on like 3 screens in America or something.  Night, wrote, directed and acted in it.  I heard it's terrible.  Here's the opening

 

After going to NYU, Night wrote a little known script called Labor of Love, which ironically sold to Fox for exactly the budget of his first film, $750,000.  At that point he was in the film business as a writer.  He co-wrote Stuart Little and did some script work for Harvey Weinstein on She's All That. 

 

Miramax let Night direct his next script, Wide Awake, which is a terrible movie with good intentions.  Night had horrible battles with Harvey and Miramax over the movie.  It made $250,000 at the box office.  A total bomb.  I think that's the point where Night was at a crossroads with his career.  He said at that point he stopped trying to make indie films and write something like a genre movie like the films he loved, like Die Hard, Raiders, E.T., Poltergeist etc etc...so he wrote The Sixth Sense. 

 

Originally it was about a crime scene photographer who keeps seeing ghosts of the victims in his shots and starts seeing them in real life.  After 17 drafts it became the movie you know today.  Disney (Touchstone) bought the script for $3 million in a bidding war with half of Hollywood, and greenlit it without a rewrite and with Night as the director.  It was an incredible victory for him and probably kind of validated his sense of worth after the terrible battles on his last film.  I think maybe this is when it started to all go to his head.

 

Night said he demanded that his agent take no offers under a million dollars.  His agent at the time, Jeremy Zimmer of UTA (I don't think Night is with him anymore, I think he went to CAA and I believe CAA dumped him recently...ouch), said that Night had unusual conviction of the script and that's what made him slip it to an inside source at Disney and told the exec he needed to clear his schedule to read it.  I think the kind of conviction Night had is what carried him far in what is a very very difficult business to master.  So he's no fluke.  You really cannot get his level of success on a fluke.

post #48 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post





Because Smith could tell the studio to hire a writer with talent, and instead he gets everything toned down into a toothless mess full of his worn out hijinks. Read about what happened to TONIGHT HE COMES and I AM LEGEND after Smith got involved. Those were not studio dictated rewrites. That was Smith demanding that those scripts be changed to suit his style,


This happens with nearly every movie star, because stars are not writers, so of course their judgement sucks and they wanna keep their image.  The good movies come about because of the talented filmmakers who make the film their way regardless of the star.  Smith is no exception, so I found it weird you focused on him so much.

post #49 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post



I agree... but the film is terrible, especially with the ending he apparently insisted on



Terrible is exaggerating. The ending is terrible, for sure. But everything before Smith finds out he isn't alone (with the woman and kid) is actually pretty great.

post #50 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post



Terrible is exaggerating. The ending is terrible, for sure. But everything before Smith finds out he isn't alone (with the woman and kid) is actually pretty great.


 

I agree. I am just disgusted with his lack of effort when it comes to moving forward as an actor or challenging himself. Again, he could get ANYTHING greenlit. Instead we get MIIIB, HITCH, HANCOCK and now talk of "BAD BOYS THREE"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post


This happens with nearly every movie star, because stars are not writers, so of course their judgement sucks and they wanna keep their image.  The good movies come about because of the talented filmmakers who make the film their way regardless of the star.  Smith is no exception, so I found it weird you focused on him so much.



I focus on him because he's the top star in the world and his charisma burns more brightly than virtually anyone else. Again, I look at how Cruise handled his career when he was on top, and then I look at Smith, and all I see is a guy wasting his golden years for a paycheck. As a fan of cinema, it's really sad


Edited by Princess Kate - 12/16/11 at 12:03pm
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