so, there's a knock on the door...

THEY WERE JUST TRYING TO SAVE YOU, ASSHOLE!!!

I knew an ex Jehovah's Witness who moved to a new town and used to have great fun pointing out inaccuracies in the bible whenever people came calling.   He was an elder in the church before he left it was fun to watch.

I to am an ex JW so I just ask them why the world didn't end in the year 2000 like they told me it would.

Rock on, man.

They've never came around to my door, but ,when I worked fast food a few years back, one did give me a pamphlet through the drive-through window. It had people chilling with lions and sheep on the cover, because Jebus power apparently makes large, predatory felines your friend after sending everyone else to Hell or something...

Awesome. You get a rep. You should have gone full Bartlet and asked them if they support torturing adulterers with hot iron rods, caving in your kid's heads if they disrespect you, ETC

There was one morning I checked my mail and found a Jehovah's Witness pamphlet on my door. If I talked to them in person I would have told them I was a Scientologys and with all due respect don't believe in their  made up by Xenu religion.

I am good friends with a Witness. He's very cool with it and has never pressed anything on me but the whole thing baffles me.

He won't say Merry Christmas, he says have a nice festive period. 

He won't say Happy Birthday, he'll say congratulations. (We went to Hooters once and the waitress asked if it was his Birthday and he went white)

His family stopped watching Lost at Ab Aeterno, when a character suggested the Island was Hell.

And yet...

He is metal as fuck. Seriously as hardcore as anyone I have ever met. He plays in a band (with other witnesses) that routinely play Highway to Hell and the like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike's Pants 

I am good friends with a Witness. He's very cool with it and has never pressed anything on me but the whole thing baffles me.

 

He won't say Merry Christmas, he says have a nice festive period. 

 

He won't say Happy Birthday, he'll say congratulations. (We went to Hooters once and the waitress asked if it was his Birthday and he went white)

 

His family stopped watching Lost at Ab Aeterno, when a character suggested the Island was Hell.

 

And yet...

 

He is metal as fuck. Seriously as hardcore as anyone I have ever met. He plays in a band (with other witnesses) that routinely play Highway to Hell and the like.

See this intrigues me, because one of the reasons I left was due to the fact that the elders in my church thought all Metal was evil. I was told that my Iron Madien albums were the Devil trying to tempt me.

This is what happens when people start acting like characters from TV and Films. How absolutely repugnant. 

I don't agree with them, but I'm certainly not going to be a smart alec jerk to their face. It's fucking horrible. It's like sub-Whedon-Sorkin internet snark come to life. 

I'm no fan of the door-to-door types (Thankfully it seems a lot less prevalent here in Oz than it appears to be in the U.S.) but in my experience they tend to be well-meaning types who genuinely think they're doing the right thing. It's deluded, and I'm very much in the 'Believe whatever the hell you want but don't expect me to join you' camp, but more often than not their intentions are noble, at least through that particular lens they view the world. The way I've always seen it, you get the one chance I give anyone who wants me to fall in with their beliefs: the chance to hear me when I say I'm not interested, and be happy with that. They push any further, then they're fair game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

I say, bring on the Whedon/Sorkin snark.....I think the bible would be much more interesting if there was a Hunter S Thompson version.

Such an unpleasant, thoughtless view. This is why I hate the internet, it makes people think speaking to people like that in reality is good thing to do, or even funny. It's not. That Gervais quote is just a bullshit excuse for being rude. People come to my door from time to time, sometimes I'm busy or in a bad mood, but I still try to not be prick to them. I know I'm never going to change their mind, which is fine. Yes, they're at your door, in your space, preaching their stuff, but you can still be civil. In fact, I think a stern 'Fuck off' is nicer than a self inflated, pompous, smug exchange. 

I just don't answer the door unless I'm expecting someone.  I don't care if they can see me through the window ignoring them.  I'm not obligated to open the door for someone who's essentially evading my privacy.

I gotta say I didn't detect anything lacking in civility in the initial exchange.  Or any gratuitous Whedon-esque snark or whatever.  It seemed deliberately polite, pointed and reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

I can sorta get on board with this idea, but.....if I want to know about a religion, I'll search it out myself.

If you show up at my door trying to "spread the word", you've crossed that line and are fair game. 

 

Throughout history, a lot of silly/horrible things have been perpetrated by people supposedly having "noble intentions".

Maybe...just maybe, if someone stood up and called people out on how irrational their 'noble' beliefs are/were, there wouldn't be as much specious/vile crap in this world.

 

     

As far as the first part of your statement goes, it's your home and naturally your right to decide where the line is. I have no place challenging that, and  wouldn't want to.

The second part I have to say I don't agree with, but for wider philosophical reasons which I don't want to get too deep into for  risk of derailing the thread way past the original point, i.e. the privacy thing. But I do think it's kinda fucked to make these kinds of sweeping generalizations about religious people just because a few are arseholes. But, that seems to be the fashionable stance these days.

I'm entirely with VTRan on this. His response to these two people was extremely civil. He's not allowed to question their religion? Of course he is. He's not allowed to be impolite? Of course he is, though he wasn't.

There is nothing wrong with questioning religion. There's something wrong with not questioning religion. Religions are inherently irrational. That's why it's called faith. Irrational behavior should be questioned, not quietly accepted in the name of political correctness or some misunderstood desire to be 'polite' or 'tolerant'.

And what exactly are these 'fucked' sweeping generalizations about religion that VTRan made? That a lot of horrible things have been perpetrated throughout history in the name of religion? That's true. That a lot of the 'specious/vile crap' in the world today is caused by religion and the clashing of opposing religions? Again, true.

Religion is not above criticism. And if you choose to not keep your religion purely as a personal belief, you should be prepared to face this criticism.

It's not a matter about religion, its a matter of being a pompous dickhead and calling them out on things. "I know your faith more than you do, HAR! HAR! one ups sir!" It's a horrible by product of internet culture.

Well, somehow my Dad picked it up 20-odd years ago and he barely knows the 'net exists now, so...

They where there to tell him about the bible. He asked them a fairly basic question about said book that they should really know the answer to seeing as how it's pretty fundamental to their entire religion and way of life... and they didn't know the answer. They're trying to spread a religion that they themselves clearly haven't studied to any great degree despite presumably having devoted their lives to it. They should be held accountable. And they should be ashamed.

I'm no fan of missionary work. But if they knew their bible and religion -- had studied it to a considerable degree -- and had then decided to try to spread it, I'd at least have some respect for them. But not even knowing the fundamentals of the religion you're trying to spread? That's stupid and ignorant... and dare I say dangerous.

I'm talking about separating the person from the missionary. Their faith can fuck itself, I abhor it, but, because they're also a person, I'd never say that to their face. They, individually are not responsible for their faith and it's effect on the world. You can argue that, those individuals, make a mass and that is the problem, you could even argue, they themselves are victims of a system, but at that moment, one on one, that's not important. Its about not belittling them. I wouldn't want to do that to anyone, its bullying and unkind and ugly. Make fun of them after they leave, fine, but just showing of and making them look stupid? Horrid.

I just find it uncomfortable seeing people boasting about being quite unkind directly to someones face. 

Well, we are on the internet where it's expected.  

And as much as I really enjoyed your story (I am an easy mark for stories that put 'salesmen' down!), I see Sean's point.  

Did you actually close the door on their speechless faces?  Or was that a fun alteration of what actually happened?  If you were actually civil to them, I hope you said your goodbyes and gave them a chance to say goodbye or a 'thank for your time' as well.  If this was just about giving them a clear view of the gaps in their knowledge, a pleasant ending would be the way to cap it.  Shutting the door in their face after making them feel dumb would probably only end up taking away from their view of us heathens.  It just ends up pushing everyone to their own ends instead of trying to come together.

Actually, reading the opening post again, it's not clear, which denomination were they?

I've not been unkind, but if you're thinking that, I'm sorry. Maybe I read the post in the wrong tone, possibly the layout. But I think, always be civil to someone, even if they're a pain. That is until they turn out to be a horrible, shitty person, which, at that point, I think you're allowed to call them out. But this seemed to me as being about you showing off and looking better than them. 

I had a Sunday School teacher who was a dyed in the wool Southern Baptist who would have conversations with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses much like you purported to but he invited them in, sat down in his living room with them, had refreshments with them and had respectful back and forths and on two occasions managed to convert the people looking to convert him.  This gentleman, if he is still alive, would run rings around whatever knowledge of the Bible you feel you have both spiritually and intellectually.

Sean is perfectly right in his criticism of you and this thread.  The thread exists only because you felt the need to boast about your supposed intellectual superiority over your unwelcome visitors.  The thread serves as possible proof that you were most likely an uncouth cock to the people at your door.  You came running here to get validation for your most likely rude and asinine behavior to people who live in your community.  Your condescending tone only serves to bolster Sean's argument. 

*EDIT* And fer fucks sake learn how to use capitalization and generally learn to type like a human being.  And it should boggle your mind, not bottle.  Jesus Christ.

That's really quite horrible. They didn't know of other versions on the bible, so they're obviously ignorant, and rather than seeing that as something that, personally, makes me rather sad, you saw it as an opportunity to make yourself look big in front of them. 

Aaannd you have shitty movie tastes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrknudsen 

I'm entirely with VTRan on this. His response to these two people was extremely civil. He's not allowed to question their religion? Of course he is. He's not allowed to be impolite? Of course he is, though he wasn't.

 

There is nothing wrong with questioning religion. There's something wrong with not questioning religion. Religions are inherently irrational. That's why it's called faith. Irrational behavior should be questioned, not quietly accepted in the name of political correctness or some misunderstood desire to be 'polite' or 'tolerant'.

 

And what exactly are these 'fucked' sweeping generalizations about religion that VTRan made? That a lot of horrible things have been perpetrated throughout history in the name of religion? That's true. That a lot of the 'specious/vile crap' in the world today is caused by religion and the clashing of opposing religions? Again, true.

 

Religion is not above criticism. And if you choose to not keep your religion purely as a personal belief, you should be prepared to face this criticism.

I'm not talking about not questioning religion, and political correctness has nothing to do with it. It's about not acting just like the people you're decrying. Religious belief is irrational by nature? Sure. So are a lot of the things we cling to in life. Question them certainly, but make sure that you're doing so rationally yourself. Question religion on an intellectual level, just as you would any philosophy. But if we're talking about generalizations, well...

"if someone stood up and called people out on how irrational their 'noble' beliefs are/were, there wouldn't be as much specious/vile crap in this world"

"Irrational behavior should be questioned, not quietly accepted in the name of political correctness or some misunderstood desire to be 'polite' or 'tolerant'."

There's a couple. It's perfectly obvious that some of the horrific crap that goes on in the world, both nowadays and throughout history, has been brought about by religious people. But that's the key term: SOME. Other common causes - Politics, property, money, sex... what, are we going to poo-poo people for having those things too?

The language of those qoutes I've listed there, and they imply very strongly that religious faith is a negative thing that should be combatted - not questioned per se - and it's a very prevalent attitude which irritates me because it's a generalization that is just as irrational as anything the religious people have pulled.

I myself am an agnostic who was brought up Catholic, and while I've known plenty of religious areseholes I've also known a lot of genuinely good people who don't deserve to be labelled as mentally inferior, or as enemies. What YOU think is up to you. In VTran's case, this guy did show up on his doorstep and attempt to convert him, and he has every right to react however he sees fit; it's his house. Likewise, I personally don't agree with religious people trying to actively convert others. But if we're talking about 'calling people out' on how irrational their beliefs are, or when some of the more outspoken atheists out there bang on about how they want to put religious people right BY THE POWER OF REASON, all I see is someone else wanting to barge in and change someone's beliefs because they think they should have the same ones as them. There's really no difference, and I've always believed that atheists, having been historically used to criticism for their attitudes, should know better.

That is, the ones who do declare attitudes like the ones above. Not all atheists carry on like this, and Ialthough this is VTran's thread I'm not singling out VTran in any way (And again, I apologise if this is a derailment) but more the general attitude. I wholly agree that religion is not above criticism, but then again neither is atheism. Neither are 'wrong' in and of themselves, and any attempt to posit either as inherently bad speaks more to the accuser's sense of superiority than anything resembling actual reason.

I'm not a Christian, I don't remember even looking at a bible in over 2 decades and these are the ones I can think of (paraphrased):

Don't kill

Don't steal

Don't commit adultery

Don't covet your neighbour's goods

and something about not lying.

Honor thy mother and father.

Honor the one and true God.

Keep the Sabbath holy.

Do not bear false witness...

Whats that about a bear?

Obviously, just there's a lot more than being able to quote theology from memory, the question has to be asked, did you understand it (even the basics) when you read it in the first place? (As some of the following statements draw attention to).

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/biblesays.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz 

There was one morning I checked my mail and found a Jehovah's Witness pamphlet on my door. If I talked to them in person I would have told them I was a Scientologys and with all due respect don't believe in their  made up by Xenu religion.

Xenu's supposedly Scientologist's greatest enemy from what I understand. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Whats that about a bear?

I spelled it correctly, you snarky Whedon-jerk!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan 

Xenu's supposedly Scientologist's greatest enemy from what I understand. 

And all religions that are not Scientology were created by him in order to keep us trapped. JWs are the 'made up by Xenu' religion, not Scientology.

What Fafhrd wrote.

I can grant that it's a little smug to post this on the internet afterwards (not saying that's a particularly terrible thing btw).  I find the idea that this is worse than 'a stern 'fuck off' and closing the door in their faces kinda weird though.  I seriously doubt they'd see it that way.  It was probably one of the most interesting encounters all afternoon.

Personally I took the point of the thread to not be boasting about scoring a point but to point out that there's people walking around pamphleting for Jesus who can't name the ten commandments.  That blows my mind.  You could speculate that they were a bit tongue tied at being put on the spot I suppose.  Even so it means the rawest recruits are being sent out by whoever this is.  That's just cruel.  At least if they were in a group in the city or something they can get some support, decide their own level of engagement etc. (being a suspicious type, I'd say the method is to throw them in the deep end as that results in more angst and more desire for helpful corrective ministry at the end of the day).

Should get what church they are from next time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

I'm talking about separating the person from the missionary. Their faith can fuck itself, I abhor it, but, because they're also a person, I'd never say that to their face. They, individually are not responsible for their faith and it's effect on the world. You can argue that, those individuals, make a mass and that is the problem, you could even argue, they themselves are victims of a system, but at that moment, one on one, that's not important. Its about not belittling them. I wouldn't want to do that to anyone, its bullying and unkind and ugly. Make fun of them after they leave, fine, but just showing of and making them look stupid? Horrid.

separating the person from the missionary

They were there to tell him about the bible, not to make personal friends with him.

Their faith can fuck itself, I abhor it, but, because they're also a person, I'd never say that to their face.

And neither did VTRan. He asked them what the ten commandments were.

Its about not belittling them. I wouldn't want to do that to anyone, its bullying and unkind and ugly.

Again, he asked these people trying to sell him on the bible what the ten commandments were. What a bully!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workyticket 

[...]

But that's the key term: SOME. Other common causes - Politics, property, money, sex... what, are we going to poo-poo people for having those things too?

This thread is about religion. I don't see how going "there are other causes for bad things in the world too" changes that?

The language of those qoutes I've listed there, and they imply very strongly that religious faith is a negative thing that should be combatted - not questioned per se - and it's a very prevalent attitude which irritates me because it's a generalization that is just as irrational as anything the religious people have pulled.

This is my quote that you're refering to: "Irrational behavior should be questioned, not quietly accepted in the name of political correctness or some misunderstood desire to be 'polite' or 'tolerant'." So making a generalization that irrational behavior should be questioned is irriational behavior?

all I see is someone else wanting to barge in and change someone's beliefs because they think they should have the same ones as them.

Neither VTRan nor I are going door to door preaching scripture. We're responding to people doing that. Responding to people trying to sell their religion to us and not wanting any part of it is not the same as wanting to barge in and change someone's beliefs.

I wholly agree that religion is not above criticism, but then again neither is atheism.

Of course not. But, again, these people going from door to door trying to spread their belief weren't atheists. If you want to criticise atheism, knock yourself out!