so, there's a knock on the door... - Page 2

I think what Sean's referring to are more about the comments VTRan made about their 'bronze age mythologies' and 'ignorance' and the general tone of how he treated these guys. I agree that it was totally fair for him to ask them what the ten commandments were, because they damn well should know them already (Especially since telling him this kind of stuff is essentially why they were on his doorstep in the first place) It's the mocking tone of what he said, especially about their faith in general, is what Sean meant.

Yeah, 'iron age' would probably have been more accurate. No, but seriously, 'bronze age mythology' seems to be a somewhat precise description, especially if you're viewing it as an atheist and don't believe that the contents of the bible is fact. I don't see what's so wrong about that phrase. The term 'Greek mythology' is widely and often used without people getting up in arms about it or taking it as an insult. What's different here?

And these people didn't know the ten commandments when trying to sell the word of the bible. They were ignorant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrknudsen 

Yeah, 'iron age' would probably have been more accurate. No, but seriously, 'bronze age mythology' seems to be a somewhat precise description, especially if you're viewing it as an atheist and don't believe that the contents of the bible is fact. I don't see what's so wrong about that phrase. The term 'Greek mythology' is widely and often used without people getting up in arms about it or taking it as an insult. What's different here?

 

And these people didn't know the ten commandments when trying to sell the word of the bible. They were ignorant.

You're quibbling on semantics now, which was not the point of what I said. Bearing in mind that VTRan didn't specify which faith these guys were from, the Judaeo-Christian faiths are still thriving to this day regardless of which historical era they sprang from, and have undergone a massive amount of changes over the millennia.

Now, seen any Zeus worshippers lately? That's the most obvious difference that springs to mind. 

Also, the usage of 'ignorant' in this case is fairly open to interpretation. Strictly in terms of not being able to rattle off the ten commandments on the spot? Sure, you might have a basis to say that. The tone of the whole account, however, suggests a wider definition of the word which IMO is less defensible - but that part of it I think I went into in enough detail before.

As I said earlier, I'm loath to criticize VTRan specifically for his behaviour in that circumstance because it's his house (His wider attitude I addressed before, though) That said, I understand where Sean's coming from. Tone and general demeanour of an opinion says just as much as individual words taken at face value.

At least at this point, I can only say as far as I'm aware of what Sean means. I don't want to risk reinterpreting things into a form he didn't quite mean, as he's not around at the moment - so, this is the last I'll say about his comments. I was only pointing out that he wasn't just talking about VTRan asking them about the Ten Commandments per se.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workyticket 

You're quibbling on semantics now, which was not the point of what I said. Bearing in mind that VTRan didn't specify which faith these guys were from, the Judaeo-Christian faiths are still thriving to this day regardless of which historical era they sprang from, and have undergone a massive amount of changes over the millennia.

 

Now, seen any Zeus worshippers lately? That's the most obvious difference that springs to mind. 

I don't see what the status of the religion has to do with anything? As an atheist that doesn't believe in the religion he's talking about, I think VTRan is perfectly fine in referring to it as a 'mythology':

Quote:

my·thol·o·gy  (m-thl-j)

n. pl. my·thol·o·gies

1.

a. A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, deities, ancestors, and heroes.

b. A body of myths associated with an event, individual, or institution: "A new mythology, essential to the . . . American funeral rite, has grown up" (Jessica Mitford).

2. The field of scholarship dealing with the systematic collection and study of myths.

Quote:

myth  (mth)

n.

1.

a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.

b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.

2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.

3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.

4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" (Leon Wolff).

And I'm not 'quibbling on semantics'. You specifically had an issue with his phrasing. That's what I'm addressing.

The issue I'm having with all of this is that VTRan is approaching this from the point of view of an atheist (just like me), and so he's using wording and phrases that support this, i.e. 'mythology'. But simply because he's not using the more widely used words like 'religion' and 'faith' (the words also used by those believing in these religions), they're taken as him mocking it.

The Judaeo-Christian religion is based on events that occurred during the bronze/iron age some 2000 years ago. He didn't call it a 'disease' or 'insanity' or 'public psychosis' that some atheists derogatorily call it sometimes (and which I certainly don't agree with). He referred to it as a 'bronze age mythology'. Again, given the facts, that's an accurate descriptor.

I don't know what tone of voice VTRan said this in. He might have said it in a mocking tone of voice in an attempt to belittle them. I don't know. But the words and phrases he used are not incorrect, belittling or mocking.

As to the 'ignorance' thing. I took that as referring specifically to them not knowing the ten commandments. If he was calling them ignorant in general because of their religion, then that's certainly not something I agree with.

If you hold religion in special esteem and are easily offended when people question such beliefs, no need to read further:
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrknudsen 

Yeah, 'iron age' would probably have been more accurate. No, but seriously, 'bronze age mythology' seems to be a somewhat precise description, especially if you're viewing it as an atheist and don't believe that the contents of the bible is fact. I don't see what's so wrong about that phrase. The term 'Greek mythology' is widely and often used without people getting up in arms about it or taking it as an insult. What's different here?

 

And these people didn't know the ten commandments when trying to sell the word of the bible. They were ignorant.

I too refer to them as bronze age belief systems. It's important to put these absurd notions of ancient desert gods in their proper context

And BTW: I take offense to greek "mythology", and make sure I speak up when I hear it refered to as such. Part of our 9th grade honors english curriculum was a book of greek "myths", and I made sure to point out that the AP bible class wasn't called "Christian Mythology"

I am also on a bit of a personal quest to make sure that everyone take the idea of Alexander the Great's well documented godhood as seriously as they do figures like Jesus, a person who can not even be proven to have existed at all

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrknudsen 

 

 

The language of those qoutes I've listed there, and they imply very strongly that religious faith is a negative thing that should be combatted - not questioned per se - and it's a very prevalent attitude which irritates me because it's a generalization that is just as irrational as anything the religious people have pulled.

Religion IS a negative thing that should be combated with the full force and fury those who stand for reason and logic are able to muster against it

After a dark age, crusades, pedophile priests, the inquisition, ETC ETC ETC, I am more than ready to bring the war to religion's doorstep. I refuse to show deference to people with fairy tale belief structures. Religion is undeserving of either my respect OR my tolerance. To quote Bill Maher: why is believing in something without proof a virtue? Why is faith GOOD? The way to stamp religion out forever, to once and for all toss this nonsense in the dustbin of history, is to ensure that it is never again talked about with a straight face, that these silly notions are not given the time of day in the public square. It is paramount to turn religion and those who hold religious beliefs into figures of fun, worthy of scorn, pity and mockery. Just like in politics it's all in the language, and that's how we're going to turn the tide against this ancient barbarism: it's not "faith", it's delusion. It's not "prayer", it's talking to an imaginary friend

Had these religos turned up on my door they'd have gotten an ear full I'll tell you that. At Christmas dinner, I made sure even my own family heard about how Christians stole the holiday from pagans, like 20 other gods mysteriously share the same birthday, and how Jesus, if he existed at all, certainly has no connection with this time of year. I also added the egyptian god Horace to our table display, just to further denigrate and disrespect the monotheists and their one god

And this is where I bow out of this thread. I have no problem with people's personal beliefs, only when these beliefs are used as foundations of societies, hinder scientific progess, are forced onto non-believers or used to oppress people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrknudsen 

And this is where I bow out of this thread. I have no problem with people's personal beliefs, only when these beliefs are used as foundations of societies, hinder scientific progess, are forced onto non-believers or used to oppress people.

Amen

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

OK, I'm up and have some coffee in me.....

 

While there may be some here that think I was 'rude' or 'mocking' to these gentlemen, I wasn't.....at least not to the degree that some would like to think I was.

Did these 'salesmen' think I was rude...perhaps...but that could be due to the fact that I wasn't going to just sit, smile and swallow their sales pitch. 

 

As I previously mentioned, this isn't the first time that I have had religious people come to my door and I've learned that if I don't start out right away by controlling this type of dialogue, the 'salesmen' just have a tendency to ramble on about the wonders of their book. I would rather spend my time doing something else than listening to a salesman for a product that I have no interest in buying.

 

Now that being said, a sideways comparison if I may...

I ride motorcycles...sportbikes specifically...25+ years.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard guys come up with bullshit motorcycle stories about how fast their bikes or how they survived a crash without a scratch while going 150mph while wearing no gear. While it can be amusing at times to hear these stories, if some 25 yr old kid says that he went over 200 mph on his 600cc 'stock' motorcycle....I'm gonna tell him that he's 'full of shit' because I know what is and what is not possible with his particular bike....if he says he went 150mph...OK, that's possible.

Of note...for the most part, I've found a good deal of Harley owners to be the biggest bullshitters when it comes to the performance of their bikes....'loud' does not necessarily mean 'fast'. :-)

If I were to go into a car or bike dealership looking to buy, I would expect the salesmen that work there to have more than just a cursory knowledge of what they are selling. I've walked out of a dealership on more than occasion when the person that worked there didn't know what the fuck they were talking about.

 

anyway.....if you're a salesman, you better know your product AND be prepared to deal with the consequences of not knowing it.

 

 

See, I truly believe that had you made them feel mocked or unwelcome, you'd have done the world a favor. Religion already has a corrosive overwhelming presence in the public sphere. We live in an America where Presidential canidates get up on stage and slag off non believers as being unAmerican, suggesting they lack a moral compass. Anything that can be done to make people realize that their firmly held beliefs on ancient invisible overlords are best kept to themselves - lest people laugh at them - is a very good thing

Right, so everyone's fury in here about religion is coming across rather vulgar and if not, it's the kind of intellectual debates that happen when you're 16. As I said before, religion has done terrible things, its also, in the past, done great things. My point is that, whatever your feelings on it, between one person and another, there should be a fundamental understanding not to be rude, not talking about respect, just not being rude. I don't understand how difficult that is to grasp. You could have told them to just go away, but its the superiority and smug way in which you acted and then came on here, looking for attention. That is what I find most troubling. Obviously you thought you'd been clever and funny. Those two people, ignorant or whatever, are not responsible for the wider problems of religion. It's troubling to see people have that idea, your not going to change the world, or 'get back' for the terrible crimes of whatever religion for being a dick to someone and then bragging about it. The fact you said you'd done it to people before is worse. It's just an ugly act. That's all. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Right, so everyone's fury in here about religion is coming across rather vulgar and if not, it's the kind of intellectual debates that happen when you're 16. As I said before, religion has done terrible things, its also, in the past, done great things. My point is that, whatever your feelings on it, between one person and another, there should be a fundamental understanding not to be rude, not talking about respect, just not being rude. I don't understand how difficult that is to grasp. You could have told them to just go away, but its the superiority and smug way in which you acted and then came on here, looking for attention. That is what I find most troubling. Obviously you thought you'd been clever and funny. Those two people, ignorant or whatever, are not responsible for the wider problems of religion. It's troubling to see people have that idea, your not going to change the world, or 'get back' for the terrible crimes of whatever religion for being a dick to someone and then bragging about it. The fact you said you'd done it to people before is worse. It's just an ugly act. That's all. 

Name one

EDIT: Just to side with VTRAN for  a minute, I've been deliberately cold and icy with the mormon missionaries who started showing up at my job this past winter (I'll roll my eyes, sigh, glare, ETC). It's just a great feeling to give them the cold shoulder and watch their crocodile smiles fall away as they realize I stand in judgement on their faith. When they meet me, the message is clear: your gay hating nonsense isn't welcome in the bay state. Everyone should try it at least once! :)

Civilization. 

But again, you're missing the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Civillisation.

Tell me that's a joke

I'm not going to get into this with you, because it really doesn't matter in regards to the thread. But you're wrong if you don't realise that.

Kate, why did you change Sean's spelling of civilization?

Think that was me, spell check refusing to accept the other version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

Kate, why did you change Sean's spelling of civilization?

I didn't. I quoted it before he had time to edit his original post. My quoted version reflects his post before he changed it

Oh, my mistake.

But yeah, I think religion played a very necessary role in the rise of civillisation.  You can hate on religion all you want, but I don't think you can deny that.  The fact that it may be fabricated nonsense has nothing to do with whether or not it was useful in keeping humanity in check for its other realms to develop.

It's the act of bragging and being a jerk. I don't see how this is still continuing. You came looking to show off to people, because you thought you had been a smart arse to some people. The whole snowflake in an avalanche thing is total bullshit and not relevant to what I'm talking about. At any rate, we still don't even know what religion they were. 

Edit: Also, please stop using ellipsis, you're not fleed.

~ Bill Maher, from RELIGULOUS

Nope, still missing my point entirely.

Some people talk about 'religion' like it's some 'other', some disease people catch or a brainwashing of some kind, and this nefarious 'other' has done all these terrible things through history...

...it's just us people - it's all just us.

If it wasn't about religion, the great civilizations of the past would have risen, fought and fallen over something else.

Stop looking at the symptom like it's the cause.

Only because it makes it difficult to read. Use them, fine, but at least use the correct "..." number.

comment system ate my first reply.  It might turn up I dunno

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Right, so everyone's fury in here about religion is coming across rather vulgar and if not, it's the kind of intellectual debates that happen when you're 16. As I said before, religion has done terrible things, its also, in the past, done great things. My point is that, whatever your feelings on it, between one person and another, there should be a fundamental understanding not to be rude, not talking about respect, just not being rude. I don't understand how difficult that is to grasp. You could have told them to just go away, but its the superiority and smug way in which you acted and then came on here, looking for attention. That is what I find most troubling. Obviously you thought you'd been clever and funny. Those two people, ignorant or whatever, are not responsible for the wider problems of religion. It's troubling to see people have that idea, your not going to change the world, or 'get back' for the terrible crimes of whatever religion for being a dick to someone and then bragging about it. The fact you said you'd done it to people before is worse. It's just an ugly act. That's all. 

I don't want to harp on about this, being just some guy, but I just don't get it at all.  You seem to be operating on some sort of universal standard of rudeness we're all supposed to understand even if some don't respect it.  The problem is this doesn't exist and I'm pretty pleased it doesn't, to be frank.  There is no way that what took place in the OP is ruder than 'a stern fuck off' and sending them on their way.  None.  And that's not because of the internet's insidious influence or whatever, but because of the way I was brought up (reel at the uncultured ways I sprang from if you like).  I don't really understand separating rudeness from respect either, for that matter.  Seems like some standard of pure etiquette of the sort not seen since 1900-ish.  Since I don't know its arcane rules I'll have to take my lumps I guess.

The other thing is bragging and crowing victory on the internet, which seems to be the major source of outrage and judgement.  The thing is you've got to do a whole lot of second guessing of motivations in order to get there.  As we've seen, beating a couple of doorknockers on the ten commandments isn't especially clever.  No one's going to be impressed. It's more interesting that it happened.  So I wouldn't (and didn't) assume the post was trying to impress people and get kudos with its fly swatting achievements.  The question of how to treat doorknockers is also an interesting talking point, as I don't accept it's cut and dried.  Had we found out what would have happened if they'd got them all right, we might have something to work with.  As it stands I find most of he planks of your disgust wanting and unnecessary, is what I'm trying to say.  Explain it to me further if you want, but so far your apparent claim to righteousness on this isn't as clear cut as you seem to think.
 

That's actually a good question - VTRan, what would you have done if they'd gotten all ten?

Well, originally it was just an observation. Perhaps I was wrong, but I was just stating it. What I've been trying to clear up, was exactly what I meant. I still think, to me, its quite horrible. But I'm not being self righteous about this at all, I thought it was all rather light hearted.

Just to throw a little support Sean's way - I can understand the appeal of a good "gotcha", but what is it really going to achieve?  If you're looking to change these people's minds you've likely just achieved the opposite.  Be rude to someone, and they'll just want to prove you wrong that much more.  Of course, maybe you don't care and you just want them to leave you alone with the satisfaction that you embarrassed them a little.  In which case, you know, good one.

That's actually something I'm always interested in finding out. When I was younger, someone I knew who had studied ancient histories and theology thoroughly started out as a very devout christian, eager to understand more about their faith, but by the end of their course had totally turned against it. 

Edit: What were they anyway, we still haven't found that out. Or did it just not come up?

Sorry, it's a little late over here and I missed out a bit. It was someone I knew who was at university. Clarified. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

Oh, my mistake.

 

But yeah, I think religion played a very necessary role in the rise of civillisation.  You can hate on religion all you want, but I don't think you can deny that.  The fact that it may be fabricated nonsense has nothing to do with whether or not it was useful in keeping humanity in check for its other realms to develop.

Don't forget beer.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/04/0424_kurtbeer.html

Ohh after reading the title I thought this would end with a sex story or something, this is lame.

That's funny!  Because I was browsing through what was available on Netflix Instant and saw that there was a TV documentary on that very subject!

How Beer Saved the World!

As someone who largely stays away from alcohol (TEETOTALER!!!), this INFURIATES MEEEEE!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

That's funny!  Because I was browsing through what was available on Netflix Instant and saw that there was a TV documentary on that very subject!

 

How Beer Saved the World!

 

As someone who largely stays away from alcohol (TEETOTALER!!!), this INFURIATES MEEEEE!!!!

I don't drink at all either. Still, in this case it got us to where we are today, so that could only be a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt 

Ohh after reading the title I thought this would end with a sex story or something, this is lame.

I'm sure chances are good that further research will reveal some was involved somewhere along the way.

In trying to move this thread somewhere more interesting, has anyone had any frightening and/or strange encounters with door to door people of any kind, religious or salesmen? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

In trying to move this thread somewhere more interesting, has anyone had any frightening and/or strange encounters with door to door people of any kind, religious or salesmen? 

Dammit Sean, don't change the subject after I've spent all morning writing out my enormous, ultra-detailed retort!

Actually, fuck it. Why be that guy who re-derails. I did spend a month selling overseas phone plans just after I moved over to Oz - never again. NEVER again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workyticket 

Dammit Sean, don't change the subject after I've spent all morning writing out my enormous, ultra-detailed retort!

 

Actually, fuck it. Why be that guy who re-derails. I did spend a month selling overseas phone plans just after I moved over to Oz - never again. NEVER again.

 

Didja? I was a foxtel door-to-door guy. Lasted just under three months.

On the upside it taught me I could never be a salesman on account of actually having a soul and human emotions and not caring very much about money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

Didja? I was a foxtel door-to-door guy. Lasted just under three months.

 

On the upside it taught me I could never be a salesman on account of actually having a soul and human emotions and not caring very much about money.

Foxtel? I've been wanting to get rid of it for ages, it's just that my parents want to keep it. When I got to freeze it for a couple of months when they were away in 2011, it was the most productive period I had all year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan 

Foxtel? I've been wanting to get rid of it for ages, it's just that my parents want to keep it. When I got to freeze it for a couple of months when they were away in 2011, it was the most productive period I had all year.

I realized earlier this year that I was only paying for it so my ex and her best mate could watch the E! Channel - there wasn't a single thing on there that was 'must watch' for me - especially when Stewart and Colbert were on ABC2.

Nah, in the end I realized I was paying for it out of force of habit and not watching it. I aint made of money, $70 a month for nothin just didn't make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

Didja? I was a foxtel door-to-door guy. Lasted just under three months.

 

On the upside it taught me I could never be a salesman on account of actually having a soul and human emotions and not caring very much about money.

Yeah, I was flogging AAPT - well, working for some doggy, two-bit marketing company who had a contract with AAPT. I don't know what I was thinking, because I have not a jot of salesman in me, and having to disturb people to try and sell this bullshit was absolute hell. Worse still, it was in the middle of a hot spring in Perth and I was spending more in keeping hydrated than I was making from commissions (I was extremely shit at the job, something I hold as a point of pride). Even lasting a month was an act of sheer will.

Of course, what also helped convince me to quit was getting stoned with my boss on his insistence, and him admitting - completely at random, with no preceding conversation of the kind - that he found it hard maintaining relationships because he liked to choke women during sex.

That made quitting kinda easy.

"I am the one who re-rails!"

/WalterWhite
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE 

Well, originally it was just an observation. Perhaps I was wrong, but I was just stating it. What I've been trying to clear up, was exactly what I meant. I still think, to me, its quite horrible. But I'm not being self righteous about this at all, I thought it was all rather light hearted.

Well ok.  Chalk it up to the failings of text based communication.  You did break out the right sort of language to seem deeply offended there dude.  But, never mind.

Anyway, I've been virtually stalked by some JWs for over a year now.  Mainly because I'm too spineless to tell them to go away properly.  Yes this is a terrible personal failing.  Still it has been interesting to see that they're so earnest and optimistic they can completely ignore me being obviously disinterested and suspicious.

There's one main guy who is really interested in my prospects for salvation but he brings a cadre of different people to try and give me a talking to, including his wife, his dad and some other anonymous old guys.  From time to time there's been really raw kids with him and I'm fairly sure I'm seeing some sort of training regime in action, where third and fourth people just sort of stand there seeming to only observe the approach.  I picture them going back to the car to debrief tactics and stuff afterwards.

Saying they were stalking me isn't much of an exaggeration either. For a time they were so regular they knew my work schedule and would wait out the front for me to get home.  It became a bit of a crappily hilarious game of cat and mouse as I'd note down numberplates (they have so many different cars!) and do dummy runs by my house via different streets on the way home, just to check if they were there, call up house mates to scope any cars sitting out the front for shirt and tie dudes.

I haven't seen them all that often lately.  But I just know they're out there.  Waiting.  Watching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzman 

 

 

Anyway, I've been virtually stalked by some JWs for over a year now.  Mainly because I'm too spineless to tell them to go away properly.  Yes this is a terrible personal failing.  Still it has been interesting to see that they're so earnest and optimistic they can completely ignore me being obviously disinterested and suspicious.

 

There's one main guy who is really interested in my prospects for salvation but he brings a cadre of different people to try and give me a talking to, including his wife, his dad and some other anonymous old guys.  From time to time there's been really raw kids with him and I'm fairly sure I'm seeing some sort of training regime in action, where third and fourth people just sort of stand there seeming to only observe the approach.  I picture them going back to the car to debrief tactics and stuff afterwards.

Saying they were stalking me isn't much of an exaggeration either. For a time they were so regular they knew my work schedule and would wait out the front for me to get home.  It became a bit of a crappily hilarious game of cat and mouse as I'd note down numberplates (they have so many different cars!) and do dummy runs by my house via different streets on the way home, just to check if they were there, call up house mates to scope any cars sitting out the front for shirt and tie dudes.

 

I haven't seen them all that often lately.  But I just know they're out there.  Waiting.  Watching.

 

Well that's some amazingly creepy shit right there. On that I think we can all agree. Have you gone to the the police with all this? I mean, that's just completely wrong by anyone's standards.