Very true. It can result in very bad things occurring. Mostly to the face. Then you'll just end up playing with yourself, because you fucked up 2nd base.

 

 

Quoted because this is truth. You think it doesn't matter, but it does. A lot. Been in a relationship with the same girl for almost 5 years, and we're getting hitched, and if I don't open the door for her I still get THE STARE. Sometimes she also calls me on it and I open the door. It really is the little things. I open the car door for her, and she'll say "Wow!". Seriously.

 

 

It's not just you. I was paranoid about stuff like that for a very long time. I got laid at 18, but even after that, got to be careful. You don't want to be inside of a virus factory with a pretty face.

One more thing: when you take a girl out on a date, other men WILL try to steal her, usually by force. You'll want to be armed at all times. 

 

I'm co-signing this, and co-signing it in BLOOD.  My boyfriend makes a point out of doing this.  The first time I met his mother was at his place.  This was before we were together as a couple, just friends.  She drove over to pick up some things, and as soon as he heard her pull up outside his place, he ran out there to open her car door and hugged and kissed her.  I melted.   A man opening a door for a woman makes her feel like a million bucks.  Men just do not know what that does to us.

Chris, I agree with Harley that sometimes the whole concept of paying for the date being some kind of contract on sex can backfire in a huge way.  But just to give the other side of it, way back when I was 21 and dating there was a marked difference between those who paid for a date (especially if the guy asked for the date in the first place) and those who didn't.  It's not even the money, it's the difference in approach.  When it's innate, when it's just something a guy does with no fanfare and without bringing attention to it, it sets a guy apart from whomever else might be asking her out at the time.  Then again, if she says something about going dutch, just nod in acceptance and continue on with the night. 

 

As far as sex goes, Wayward has it exactly right.   And the opening of doors is a must.

 

I'm your age, Spider, so I don't think I'll give any advice or anything -- just a thought or two. I probably don't know any better than you about the dating world, when it comes down to it (although I kinda doubt anybody really knows any better than anybody, if you really get down to it. Dating is like shooting in the dark, I think). But in my limited dating experience, what works is to basically not take it too seriously, like other people have mentioned -- "it's all in good fun," "if something happens, it happens," etc.

 

It's also pretty important to be honest, which requires you to be self-deprecating, which will lead to the whole confidence thing. I think someone who can be honest with themselves and other people, about their flaws, spotty histories, etc., and can still find a way to still feel confident and humorous about it is on their way to being a legitimately charming person. Similarly, I think the worst advice here is to develop a "second persona" for dating. If you're ultra-shy it might help, but it's just skirting around the issue in the end. Even if she falls in love with that guy you're pretending to be... well, she'll be disappointed when she realizes it's not the actual you.

 

And if all else fails, SPIKE HER DRINK.

Blacky might be exaggerating this point a bit, Chris, but be prepared for cockblockers. Don't let these fuckos drag you down into their private hell. If some bag of douche starts hitting on your date, give the guy enough rope to hang himself rather than try to compete with him for who's the more insecure asshole. Don't let on that you're perturbed he's interrupting your pleasant evening. Keep your cool and simply fantasize about him ending up in some "Saw"-like contraption before the end of the night. He'll eventually get bored when she doesn't respond to his flirtations and move on to the next girl. Women see through this dickweeds.

 

Cockblockers can come in many forms: her ex-boyfriend, some male friend of hers who wants something more, or a random prick. You can always tell you're dealing with a cockblocker when he A) doesn't bother introducing himself to you within a minute or so of butting in on your date, B) focuses his attention entirely on her, C) holds up both ends of the conversation, and D) wears a gallon of cologne to mask that vinegary smell.

 

If I was out with my boyfriend and some douche was hitting on me and he didn't step in, I'd think, "Wow, he must not love me very much if he's alright with another man propositioning me right in front of him".  Yeah, you don't want to blow your top, but you don't want a woman feeling like you don't really care about her by letting some guy flirt with her right in front of you.

 

It's also a great chance to show off your protective skills, which make all women moist when deployed properly.  Remain dignified, but tell the guy that she's on a date with you and that you want to enjoy your time with her uninterrupted.

Quote:

 

I had the opposite happen to me, I was in a bar in Sydney and a woman started hitting on me, me being an oblivious and naive twit who got married at age 20, didn't even realise. It got to the point off her saying, "Can I buy you a drink", and me answering, "Oh no thanks I've got one all ready", still oblivious.

 

At this point my wife, who had been listening in and realised I didn't have a clue what was happening stepped in and said, "He's with me and you can go now". Yeah, she got some loving that night for that display of machimo.

As far as the confidence thing goes Chris, I guess you can look at it this way: the dreaded 'Friend Zone' is a very real thing that we've all come up against. Sometimes a woman will place you in that 'friend' category and your chances of anything romantic ever happening are basically nil.

 

Now in your case, the fact that you've been friends with her a while and she's said 'yes' to a date is a damned good start. It's a sign that she doesn't put you squarely in that bracket, and may never have. Of course, it's hardly a cast-iron guarantee of success, but the fact remains that she's at least open to considering you as a Person of Interest, dating-wise even though she's had time to put you in the 'Friends Only' box. That's not something that happens too often, and something you should feel confident about.

 

As for the date, everyone's given great advice. IMO, the most important thing you need to do is RELAX. Dating is a crapshoot at the best of times; just because there's a spark on the night doesn't mean they'll feel the same way the next day, and vice-versa. I've had women practically throw themselves on me and have lost interest by the next day, as well as ones who looked utterly bored during the first date but still want to go out with me again. Bottom line is, we're all changeable and prone to be driven by circumstances, and working too hard to 'impress' someone is often just a way to drive yourself nuts; the qualities a woman will find attractive in you will be the ones that are there innately, and while you can get short-term results from trying too hard or 'playing a role', the results are exactly that: short-term.

 

In your case she knows you already, so you don't have to worry about making that first impression - and like I said, if she knows your qualities and is still willing to try out a date after this long being friends, you can rest easy knowing that she sees something she likes; the question is going to be, does she find you sexually attractive? This date is her opportunity to work that out. Even if she ultimately decides the answer is 'no', the fact that she's willing to consider the question is a win. 

 

Just relax, hang out, and don't try and force anything. That question of  'Do I find him sexy?' will be bubbling away in her head, and if she does you've given the pair of you a situation where she can express it. She knows you already, so you have half the battle sorted. You're there, it's a date - you've given her the open door to act on it however she decides, so just take it easy and let her bring it up when she's ready. Think of it as an experiment you're both trying; you're putting on the 'dating' shoes and seeing if they fit.

 

Good luck with it and hey, if she says no you at least have the satisfaction of knowing you went for it. For years I was the archetypal 'Friend Zone resident pining from afar', and it's an awful thing to put yourself through. You had the balls to let your feelings be known, and whatever happens you should be proud of that.

These ladies KNOW THEIR SHIT. 

Ah, good point. Still, she's considering it which is still reason to be happy. From my experience, when you ask a friend out on a date and they don't want to consider you 'that way', you immediately know it because they look like they're turning themselves inside out right in front of you.  You've got her thinking about it, which means at the very least that it's opened up a lot of good possibilities.

There is nothing you can do about the friend zone. IMO, All the stuff about "getting out of it" is just the rejected male way of normalizing their experience of rejection and trying to transcend it. If a woman finds you attractive, you won't be in the friend zone. If she doesn't, you will. Trying to dodge around the friend zone, which is basically a way of trying to dodge around the possibility that a woman doesn't find you appealing romantically, is a way of focusing on how you adjust your presentation of yourself in order to ensure that she does, damn it -- or at least, that other women do in the future. And that's wrong, mainly because changing yourself after a rejection, while it can be healthy in some cases, is the definition of reactionary. Integrity of character is more important, and ultimately more attractive, than whatever the effect is of the "rules" one develops to "avoid" rejection by the opposite sex.

 

Those girls are morons.

Hater. 

 

They might be a bit...goofy, but some of those points had me nodding along. If you want to change your relationship with a woman, you have to change how she sees you.  If you're in the friend zone, she doesn't see you as a sexual being.  It IS possible to get out of the friend zone.  I was friends with my boyfriend before we made the leap to an intimate relationship.

 

I guess the key is that you say "how she sees you." In principle, you shouldn't have to adjust anything about yourself to conform to another person's standards of how you should be. There are reasonable limits on this, of course. But trying to be more sexy or more appealing in some pre-set way, according to the way you, or a general consensus, or a dating expert, or somebody, has determined is more attractive to the opposite sex is the very thing that makes a person unattractive. The eagerness to conform to someone else's definition of what's attractive, and then failing at it because it's not a personally determined thing, is what causes most men to not have confidence in themselves. The same probably goes for women, I imagine. I dunno, maybe that's too idealistic.

 

It's just that the urge to "get out of the friend zone," along with the advice those girls in your video were providing, strikes me as just another way to infantilize men and make them subject to female standards. A feminist might hate this opinion, but I think neither gender should be subject to the other -- under any circumstances. The ability to defy that concept, in an individual, is a huge part of what makes either gender attractive.

Well.....yeah....but it doesn't hurt to wear a nice suit every once in a while, does it? 

 

I agree that no one should have to completely change who they are in the pursuit of someone's heart.  All I'm saying is that if you stop acting like somebody's buddy and present yourself as a potential suitor, you never know what could happen.  You're still YOU, but the way that you act around a woman and the way that you treat a woman is what makes the difference between being her shopping buddy and being her boyfriend. 

 

Now stop making me feel bad for posting that video.

 

Sorry Harley, I wasn't trying to make you feel bad. I do agree with you that a lot of men present themselves as a pal rather than a potential suitor, as you adequately put it. But I think that's ultimately a confidence issue -- in the lack of a natural ability to find a position of some romantic leverage with women, men naturally resort to "just being friends" in order to retain a degree of closeness from which those romantic fantasies can be projected. My argument, I guess, is that they shouldn't have to resort to that. Men should find enough confidence in themselves just to accept that, when a woman finds you a friend, you should just accept it and move on to a woman that doesn't. Sticking around and subjecting yourself to her whims is just gonna make you more unattractive in the end -- to yourself as well as to other potential partners. Again, this probably applies to both genders, I would imagine.

This is true.  No woman wants to be with a man who has the romantic chutzpah of a chihuahua.  We want pit bulls.  I know women who have "just friends" guys who VERY CLEARLY want to be something more, and these women just laugh their asses off at having a guy at their beck and call.  It's the philosophy of, "If he never fully has me, then I'll always fully have him".   

 

But saying that all men should have that confidence...of course they should, but everyone, EVERYONE is fucking terrified of being burned by the flame of love, no matter how confident they are or appear to be.  No one wants to endure that awkward moment of being shot down.  And some guys do think that being friends first puts them at a unique advantage in terms of getting a woman.  It's smart in terms of doing reconnaissance work on her without her feeling weirded out, but it's stupid because by the time you make a move, she has a specific image in her head of you as her friend and nothing more.

This part of your post stands out to me: "No one wants to endure that awkward moment of being shot down." Those men who move into the friend zone, myth that it is, are those that are too nervous about rejection to put themselves in a position to sustain it. They become friends not because it is something they fall into -- they do so because it is a position which their insecurities naturally dictate they assume. I think men have to be willing to lose a friendship in order to realize its true possibilities romantically, if that's where they feel like going.

 

And for sure, Harley, you're absolutely right -- those women who keep men around for the purposes of personal ego-boosting are the worst females society is capable of producing. They rival the male douchebags who pretend to be interested in serious relationships, and have nearly mastered that act, in order to get laid. There is nothing but egotism about such people. But at the same time... not to get too fundamental about such things, but is it not human instinct to find your subordinates unattractive, regardless of gender? That assumption probably, when realized, breeds a lot of assholes. Finding someone who finds such concepts to be pathetic is the real hard game, in my books -- a lot of people are so entrenched in it that they are nearly non-relatable.

Jesus Christ Mulder, you sound like you need a new circle of friends mate.

Its neither better or worse Chris my good man, it's just the way you're rocking and rolling. Don't worry about what anyone else is doing, how much experience they have compared to you (be it competing suitors or potential ladies) or any of that comparitive bullshit. You're going at the pace that feels comfortable for you, you're still young and you've got the whole awesome world of fuckin and all the great that comes with that stretched out before you that you actually feel emotionally ready for.

 

You've missed nothing and have the best fun imaginable ahead of you. 

 

I suppose that if someone genuinely believes another person to be "beneath" them, then they find that person unattractive.  It is a genetic and societal thing to upgrade in terms of a mate--getting with someone who is your societal equal or superior in terms of looks, intelligence, economic class, etc.  It's why people get in a tizzy when they see a smokin' hot person with someone who wouldn't exactly be called red carpet material.

 

As far as going from friends to something more, here's my story.  I met the fella who is now my boyfriend during my freshman year of college.  We had mutual friends and we became pals through them.  I was with someone else and he was dating, too.  I was single by the start of my junior year, and spent more time with my friends, including him.  Group outings turned into hanging out one-on-one which turned into kissing on his front porch.  I guess it helped that we weren't so insanely close that he was my beck and call boy, but we were close enough that I felt comfortable with him.

 

Well thanks for making me feel like an idiot, Rain. Can always count on you for that!

 

Settle down princess, I was referring to this...

 

 

It shouldn't be that hard is what I was getting at - you seem like you may need to extend your friend circle is all.

 

...and I can always be counted on to make you feel like an idiot? Really?

Dating Tips/Advice?

If you're going to date, don't let your wife find out.

 

 

In all seriousness, I'd be happy to be in the friend zone right now, instead of the DOGHOUSE.

 

I can't believe I'm giving advice, because around your age, I was in the same boat!

IN THE BEGINNING....
Know what type of girl you want and what type of relationship you want. If you don't know, you'll probably date a lot and get fed up with things eventually, unless you don't mind 1 nighters. To each their own.

My advice is from what I do, and people got their own things, and interests. I tend to date initially, and can form an opinion fast if the relationship is a long one or not. When I was younger, I was more prone to shorter ones, but I'm getting old, and the liver isn't what it is, so I prefer druggi-err longer term. (Happily with someone for the last 1.5 years.

So I'm a more romantic, humor guy (don't worry I have a realistic side as well, I just know how to plan very well).

1. Be yourself, but impress her with what you want to impress her with.
   Trust me for years I went after certain types of girls, and eventually I found one who I could be myself around. Yes I found a girl that watches Arrested Development.
2. Sense of humor goes a long way.
   Helps her know you can relieve stress in different ways. Never be mean, but teasing can be fun (dead grandma jokes don't work). It's more to see her reaction to it.
3. Girls only dig buff guys - False, but True.
   Really you got to show that you can be organized. While a first date shouldn't be fancy, be enough that you don't smell like a foot. After dating and getting into a relationship, you can fart around her... ...maybe.
4. Reinforcement!!!!!!!!!
   Never do anything that leads to being idle or not talking!!!!! Like watching a movie! You want to do something active that reinforces each other, that leads to further discussion. Now of course if she is a Die Hard movie buff, promise that for another date. The key thing here is talking a lot. Say her name bitch-err just repeat her name a lot.
5. No kiss on the 1st date - for relationship building
   This helps me not worry about trying to jump in pants or what not on the 1st date. It also can make you look like a gentleman, and make the 2nd date a little more worth looking forward too. Also this applies to sexual things. Don't carry a condom in your wallet unless you hook up daily. Girl finds it... ...you're screwed (mostly).
6. Bad Dates kill your monkey
   Honestly dates should be a reflection of each other. 50/50 to be safe initially. It helps that you do know something about her before hand. You like sports? Do something sporty. She likes Italian? You know where dinner is. Oh and you're paying.
   

IN THE MIDDLE...

1. Increase the time you spend together
   May not be actively doing something, but just being there. Doing homework together, watching movies.
2. No kiss on the 1st date, but it's not the 1st date anymore!!!
   Umm don't practice on your sister. Step sister with no DNA in common*? Maaaaybe. Really umm I don't like giving advice on this.
   
   *Yes I know scientifically we all got a lot of DNA in common.
3. Damn the chamber is empty, got nothing for this bullet.
4. Cook the woman a meal for once!
   
   

IN THE END...

...if you're here. It doesn't end till death.


THE PREQUELS...

No this isn't stalking, but more recon about a girl before asking her out, so you have some intel on surprising her on the 1st date. Also some misc stuff.

1. Talk and pay attention. Repeat back stuff you're interested in. The quotient here of repeat backs is key to how much it will appear you have in common.
2. The thought is what matters. Flux between cheap gifts and expensive gifts. Being unique and creating things helps. (I write poems, copy if you wish, but my poems will always be better)
3. Never show you're bored in a situation, unless she is too.
4. You make a mistake once? GREAT, you learn from it. 2nd time? Your fault.

I dunno, I just spit balled most of these. I don't have a formula per say. These are just guidelines, but I'm flexible with them as well.

I've always been squeamish on this subject: watching someone who has no chance with a woman (I have a friend who does this quite often) make a complete ass of himself and not take a hint is... almost painful. We're on CHUD, so I'll put it this way: I can't even watch Ben Stiller movies. Don't be a Ben Stiller. Don't be limp-wristed. Don't let her walk all over you. Don't take advice from your idiot best friend and try to be a tough guy and walk all over HER. Don't do shit you wouldn't normally do, or say shit you wouldn't normally say, in an effort to advance to the next stage of dialogue or earn approval points. I've never understood it. What the hell is the point of a relationship where you have to fake it? I've never been able to convince myself that being with this woman, or that woman, is worth sacrificing me and my sense of self. I've tried it, you know. I've put this or that out of reach, hidden my penchant for face-melting profanity or my love for unhealthy food or the fact that my penis is inescapably average in size, but it's always left me feeling sour. 

 

So that's my major point of advice: be you. If it comes out you don't have a chance, accept it! No big deal. 

 

Now a little backstory: Just before my 21st birthday, I was pretty much where you're standing now. I'd had one "high school girlfriend" that never went anywhere beyond light petting, and I'd dated a catholic girl in college for a year and a half that amounted to little more. My dating experience was basically nil, as both were nuances of shared attraction discovered in the open. There was never much "asking out" involved. Very little physical activity to speak of. And you know... I don't regret it for a second. Could I have bagged chicks in high school and college? Probably. I was tall, well-spoken, musically talented. But it just didn't feel right. That's not where life took me, and it's not where it took you. Second-guessing your backstory might give you a scant bit of insight into why you are the way you are (which is certainly more complex than anyone could divine from a post on a movie forum), but ultimately it comes down to navel-gazing. 

 

Anyway, as I said, I was pretty much thrust into the world of dating in a sackcloth, shading my eyes from the bright light. All I knew was what I liked, and what I didn't. So that's my second bit of advice: listen to your heart and your brain equally. If one or the other is telling you the thing isn't going to work out... it isn't. And if it doesn't, then it wasn't for you, and bellyaching about it is only wasting more of your time.

 

It sounds horribly negative and offputting, doesn't it? But I guess that's my motto in the world of dating. You've got to be prepared to put some work in... and without a doubt you've got to be prepared to fail. And once that happens... it all opens up. It's heavily romanticized to the point of being nauseated that you're on a hunt for the love of your life, and you have to find her. The way I look at it... you're looking for the person who could grow into the love of your life. By all means, give a girl a chance! But at the same time, don't ignore a screaming warning that it isn't. going. to. work. out. If this girl doesn't call you back and say yes, sucks! You put a line out and didn't get a bite. Thankfully, you can cast it out again. 

 

And the light at the end of this tunnel of a post: even if you're thinking "Oh man, I'm a 21-year-old virgin with no dating experience", somewhere out there is a girl who is thinking "What I wouldn't give for a 21-year-old virgin with no dating experience", even if she's not thinking it in exactly those words. Every single person here posting about their relationship has things they perceive as faults, or things that give them pause. And their S/Os are with them anyway. 

 

Trust me, if WW puts up with my shit on a daily basis, the fact you're presumably a little late to the dating game doesn't mean a damn thing. 

And your awesomeness makes sense now.

 

You've got a keeper there sir - cherish her. ;)

Also, RE: opening doors:

 

You look like a gentleman. 

 

And there's the chance you'll see more people approaching at medium distance, so you can hold the door and force them into that awkward half-run when they realize you're doing it, which is always good for a quiet laugh.

Also, on the first date, be sure to bring along a ventriloquist dummy made in your own likeness.  Just in case.

And take a picture of yourself with your cock in its mouth to show her how sexually adventurous you are.

Then return the favor to show how well you can reciprocate!

JMulder knows his shit. Heed his words! 

 

I will add that it's important to emasculate the waiter throughout the dinner. If it's a girl, even better. Make lewd observations about her body and character. At the end of the evening, casually suggest a threesome to your date, regardless if the server is male or female. Test the waters, you know? I'll go ahead and incorporate some other advice and say use the ventriloquist dummy to bring up the menage a trois. 

 

And unless you want to look like a total pussy, never break eye contact. And I mean NEVER. For any reason. Just stare deep into her eyes. Avoid blinking if possible. 

Sorry to hear that, mate. Her loss. If anything, love is a lot more exciting when it comes from unexpected avenues. Going out with this girl you're already comfortable with would have been a bit too predictable. Go out and pick up a stranger. :)

Hey, you know what, you had the balls to ask her out, which is a massive, massive step. I used to be TERRIFIED of asking women out. Completely shit-scared. I actually had a panic attack one time right before asking a girl out because I was so stuck in my head that I couldn't just let go and say "Hey, let's hang out sometime". Now she and I are still good friends and both seeing other people, but I totally missed the boat on that one. Which sucks, because she's gorgeous and pretty awesome, but at the same time it's for the best as I was kind of a trainwreck at the time we met and I would have catastrophically screwed up with her.

 

It gets easier!

You can do it, Chris!

You'll have some lucky girl bouncing on your virgin cock in no time.  Keep the faith!

I know, but still.  She's out there.  You'll find her.  Don't stress it.

Ok, I'm going to be that guy, 'cause my brother and sister Chewers are just too damn polite. Please keep in mind that I went to a mixed co-ed high school/college of the arts when I was 14, and it was the seventies.

 

HOW DOES ANYONE MAKE IT TO 21 A VIRGIN?!?!?!?!

 

TMI time. When I was 14, my hormones were raging. So were most of my classmates, both male and female. That was the year I lost my virginity. But it wasn't to a horny gal at my hippy-dippy art school, it was to my first real crush in my small hometown in North Carolina, when I was on summer break. And it was GLORIOUS. But even at 14, she was hardly the first girl I'd made out with (I mean second base here). Spider, did you not go to any parties, dances, hang out in a Seven-Eleven parking lot, drink half a beer and honestly think you were plastered, any of that stuff? I know that since the 80's STDs and the Big One have put a kibosh on some aspects of casual sex, but I simply can't imagine just masturbating my way through ages 15-21. With all due respect to the (absolutely) terrific advice that's been administered in thread, you may have issues beyond shyness.

 

Let me add that I do not mean this in any sort of internet-tough-guy-I-was-getting-laid-while-you-were-in-diapers thing. I'm no George Clooney. I just can't imagine going through those formative years without female companionship.

/pushes up sleeves

 

Jacob......Sometimes it just happens. Some folks just never get around to it. Some folks genuinely wanted to wait till they met the one and make it mean something (or even wait till marriage. I've known a few folks like that). Sometimes the opportunity just doesn't arise, especially if you have high standards and live in a shitty area. Especially if you have high standards. Sometimes, having a penis (or a vagina) isn't the only requirement you're looking for. And for some, casual sex isn't their thing. 

 

/shrugs

 

It happens. Nothing to be too surprised about. 

I didn't really mean it as some sort of slag, that would be pretty Neanderthal of me. It's just that, speaking from personal anecdotal experience alone, I probably would have climbed a clock tower with a rifle had I still been a virgin at 21. But I'm divorced and childless at 50, if that's any compensation.

 

 

 

It's more common than you think.  It'll only be a big deal with your partner if you make it a big deal.  You're not socially inept or a freak.  You're just not sexually active.  No prob. 

I will never, to the end of my (rapidly approaching) days, understand why people have to impart Meaning to sex. It seems like such a weak construct. Like imparting Meaning to lunch.

 

And yet I'm a romantic. Go figure.

 

 

What's wrong with masturbation?

 

I think something WOULD be wrong if you're not yanking on your weiner during your teenage years, twenties, and shit, beyond that.

 

 

I say this as a romantic like, Jacob.