DC BARFS UP PLANS FOR WATCHMEN PREQUEL COMICS

So fucking awful. The creators involved are a very mixed bag (it's bizarre that the Silk Spectre book probably has the best creative team) but I'm not sure any of them have a hope in hell of getting anywhere near Moore and Gibbons' accomplishment. Plus, the fact that these are prequels means that either we'll suffer through something that tells us everything we already know, a la the Star Wars prequels, or it'll involve sure-to-be-painful retcons that will fuck up Watchmen.

Moore's quote there is dead on. This could not be a bigger sign that DC is coasting on past glories and has nothing new to offer.

This is actually happening. I always thought that luck would intervene and this whole misbegotten atrocity would get cancelled. Fuck this, fuck everything about it and fuck everyone involved in it. And fuck everyone who spends a cent on it.

After reading Azzarello's quote about getting the call from Dan Didio, I can't believe that he missed the opportunity to say "Raw shark... why would I want to write about...?"

Yeah, it's a crap idea, but they're getting heat from the parent company to exploit the living shit out of every property they have (and the fact that their only proven film property is wrapping up this year, with Snyder's Superman still an unknown quantity, is probably turning up the heat).

My biggest problem with the creative side of it is that I've never particularly thought there was anything compelling about the Watchmen characters outside of their interaction in that story. We've already seen the two big origin stories, and much of the important background for the others; the comic makes it pretty clear that the interim between those times and the events of Watchmen, was more or less business as usual.  They're really not characters: they're  placeholders for Moore's percption of the ills of superhero comic storytelling, and the world they reflect. So, they do what-- fight crime? Eh.

I'm curious enough to flip through the eventual collected editions at the bookstore, but can't see laying out coin.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

This is actually happening. I always thought that luck would intervene and this whole misbegotten atrocity would get cancelled. Fuck this, fuck everything about it and fuck everyone involved in it. And fuck everyone who spends a cent on it.

 

 

Well fuck me, I guess, because I'll be picking up at least the Ozymandias and Silk Spectre series.

And I still find it hilarious that people treat Watchmen as this sacred tome that should never be sullied by anything or anyone, I'm not even sure why but it just tickles me that this is the line. And Moore's indignation always confuses/irks me as I can't think of another comic book writer who's done as much work cannibalizing old stories to tell new ones as him.

Everyone has already voiced my opinions about Before Watchmen better than I could, so I'll just move on to the other portion of this whole project that bothers me.....

Having to listen to Alan Moore bitch about it for the next few years, particularly with pot-calling-the-kettle-black bits like this

“As far as I know,” he said, “there weren’t that many prequels or sequels to ‘Moby Dick.’ ”

Really Alan?  You really want to go THERE with this argument?  Here's my response:  League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Lost Girls.

If you want to bitch about the comics industry being creatively bankrupt, then by all means truck on.  If you are going to sit there and complain that someone is using your characters in a way you didn't intend.............then perhaps you shouldn't be doing the EXACT SAME THING with other authors works.  Doing so only makes you look like a moron.  Just sayin'.

Can't be any worse than "The New 52," amirite?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieCluster7 

And I still find it hilarious that people treat Watchmen as this sacred tome that should never be sullied by anything or anyone, I'm not even sure why but it just tickles me that this is the line.
 

They treat it as a sacred tome BECAUSE IT'S REALLY GOOD. And frankly, the response to this just highlights what a bunch of philistines superhero comics fans can be. It's like they honestly don't see the difference between Watchmen and a prequel crapped out by JMS. They're both "Watchmen", right? I mean, they've got the Watchmen logo on them and everything!

This is the fallout from an industry in which the property is more important than the creator. Watchmen was one of the few bulwarks against that. Now it's being strip-mined. THAT'S why I have a problem with it.

As for Moore, I agree his grumblings have tipped over into hypocrisy and that he ought to direct his rage a little better, but I do think there's a valid difference between someone using pre-existing characters for creative reasons, which is what Moore is doing in LoEG, and word coming down from a corporate tower that the Watchmen Franchise needs to start performing better financially, thus leading to further stories written by a bunch of hacks (and yes, the writing team they've assembled here is deeply mediocre. You'd think DC would try to pull out all the stops if they were going to follow up one of the pillars of their company, but it's like they just threw it out to whoever was outside the door when the decision came in.)

I'd venture the Darwyn Cooke Minutemen book has a chance of being good, simply because it looks to be set in a time far enough removed from Watchmen to have some room to be interesting.

But seeing the cover of the Comedian book just makes this look like such a bad, bad idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson 

I'd venture the Darwyn Cooke Minutemen book has a chance of being good, simply because it looks to be set in a time far enough removed from Watchmen to have some room to be interesting.

 

But seeing the cover of the Comedian book just makes this look like such a bad, bad idea.

This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

As for Moore, I agree his grumblings have tipped over into hypocrisy and that he ought to direct his rage a little better, but I do think there's a valid difference between someone using pre-existing characters for creative reasons, which is what Moore is doing in LoEG, and word coming down from a corporate tower that the Watchmen Franchise needs to start performing better financially, thus leading to further stories written by a bunch of hacks (and yes, the writing team they've assembled here is deeply mediocre.

There is definitely a difference between the two.  That said, Moore needs to watch his wording when he's making blanket statements like that.

The Crimson Corsair and even the Ozymandias book have a chance of being decent, because there are actually stories to be told there that weren't spelled out in Watchmen...and (coincidentally?) these are also the books being written by the one guy who was actually involved with Watchmen. And hey--Darwyn Cooke. Amanda Conner. I'm sure they can produce a high quality product.

But that's not really the point. I don't see anything you can say with these particular characters that you couldn't with original ones, or characters within the DCU, and Watchmen tells you everything you need to know about them. It's a brilliantly self-contained work. So basically these books aspire to being pointless.

Key Twitter Comments:

"The problem isn't that there's going to be more Watchmen material. The problem is that there's a perceived need for more material."

"I'm sure the Watchmen series will be just as good as all of DC's attempts to carry on the New Gods w/out Jack Kirby."

"All those creative talents put to work scraping the bottom of a 25 year old barrel. The future of comics, ladies and gents!"

"Sometimes you should just savor a satisfying meal instead of filling your face with crap in hopes of extending the experience."

"I'm sure that the Watchmen prequels will be decent enough comics, but so would *any* comics by those creators, and probably much better." (Which is rather kind.)

"DC should have announced the Watchmen Prequels by saying they released them 35 minutes ago."

"You gotta admit, prequels to a 12 issue run from 28 years ago steeped in 1970's & Cold War imagery is a great way to bring in new readers."

"We survived a decade of DC trying to incorporate Kingdom Come into the DCU. We can survive the two months before this nonsense fades away."

"Wake me when there's a Watchmen "squeakquel." That's something I'd pay cash money to experience."

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

I don't see anything you can say with these particular characters that you couldn't with original ones

cf. Leah Moore on Twitter: "Why not do NEW OGN's from the Before Watchmen creators? Use the budget to find the *next* Watchmen instead"

Well, we all know why, but she does rather echo your sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieCluster7 

 

Well fuck me, I guess, because I'll be picking up at least the Ozymandias and Silk Spectre series.

 

And I still find it hilarious that people treat Watchmen as this sacred tome that should never be sullied by anything or anyone, I'm not even sure why but it just tickles me that this is the line. And Moore's indignation always confuses/irks me as I can't think of another comic book writer who's done as much work cannibalizing old stories to tell new ones as him.

There is no line. And no Moore hero worship. He's a loon and can go fuck himself for all I care. It just pisses me off that the industry cannot leave a single successful property that hasn't been rebooted, sequelized, rebootqueled, retconed and prequeled to death. For all the idiocy surrounding mainstream comics we could always say "Hey, at least the Minutemen didn't travel in time in order to fight the Aliens." It was nice having a thing stay away from the bullshit and be self contained and as is.

But by all means, let's go along with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Key Twitter Comments:

 

"DC should have announced the Watchmen Prequels by saying they released them 35 minutes ago."

 

 

Ok, that was good.

The one thing that could have saved this entire project:

Golden opportunity lost, DC!

"BEFORE WATCHMEN: THE ADVENTURES OF THAT NEWSSTAND GUY"

At worst (or at best) it can be considered fanfic, as non-canonical as Watchmen Babies or that hilarious thing that went around when the film came out purporting to be an episode from a Watchmen cartoon.

Bottom line for me: the original graphic novel is still there on my shelf, unfucked-with. I may shake my head at the sensibility that led to this being a reality, but I can't get too worked up about it. The surprise, really, is that it took this long to happen.

Moore hasn't done himself many favors over the years. Just by being nicer about it, Neil Gaiman managed to get full approval rights from DC if they ever want to use any of the Endless again. Course, I wonder if that has to do with Gaiman being more of a crossover star author than Moore is; haven't seen any Moore novels hitting the NYT bestseller list. (I'm not saying Gaiman generates mo' money and is therefore awesomer; I'm saying DC/Warner might see it that way and consider it good business sense to keep Gaiman happy.)

Now watch what happens when Dave Sim dies, Cerebus (as per his wishes) enters public domain, and anyone with ink and paper can legally do Church & State Volume III.

So because I'm too lazy to scour any other forums besides this one, has some smug misguided individual dropped the inevitable "truth bomb" yet?

You know, "Hey, folks, hate to break it to you but Watchmen just ain't that great. It was an interesting product for its time but it simply has not aged well. Some of you bitch about Snyder's film but I'll tell you what, he actually nailed it and your disdain for that is what you should feel for the comic.  Nostalgia is just tainting your view of it. I'm actually looking forward to these. They may *gasp* be better than the originals!"

Could be worse. Could be "Watchmen vs. Predator."

At the very least, nobody's trying to say the Watchmen characters are part of the DCU now. We're not going to get Nite Owl hanging out with Green Lantern. Which I think is part of what Moore was originally afraid of. As it is, when Dennis O'Neil found a way to sleaze Rorschach into a Question story, it was juuuuust barely justified by the context (Vic Sage had read Watchmen and had a dream about Rorschach) and by the fact that Rorschach was Moore's redo of the Question.

What's interesting to me is that DC seems too scared to do a straight-up sequel, so they have to pussyfoot around and do this sort of "untold story" stuff. As it is, prequel stories will mess with everyone's idea of what's canon. Everyone has his or her own imagined backstory, and all of that will be contradicted or pinned down like dead butterflies by prequel stories. Whereas a sequel could just be ignored as an addendum, much like Godfather III. A prequel stands to piss more fans off than a sequel would, really.

Watch them sell well. And then wait for the crossovers.

For me, it's not about fucking with the originals, because of course these will be forgotten in a year. It's about how fucked up the comic book industry is, and how creativity is literally the last priority for them. This isn't going to damage Watchmen, but it's also not going to help superhero comics move to a healthier place. It's the equivalent of the endless stream of reboots and remakes coming out of Hollywood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

At the very least, nobody's trying to say the Watchmen characters are part of the DCU now.

Early days yet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

But that's not really the point. I don't see anything you can say with these particular characters that you couldn't with original ones, or characters within the DCU, and Watchmen tells you everything you need to know about them. It's a brilliantly self-contained work. So basically these books aspire to being pointless.

Isn't this the argument against the majority of prequels, sequels and reimaginings in Hollywood while we're at it? 

This problem isn't just in comics - this has bled across all corporate controlled entertainment as the majority of modern artistic expression is controlled by soulless executives who'd sooner be manufacturing washing machines than comics movies, books or music.

Commodification makes for a majority of shitty shitty art.

You guys are all high there's PLENTY of stories to explore in teh Watchman Universe:

How did Rorschach get his scarf?

How does NiteOwl make all his equipment? Does he really make it all himself?

The Silk Spectre.....lets' see ALL the details of her alternative lifestyle! In Color! Fuck it, 3D!

Did The Comedian ever actually do Stand-up? I see guest cameos by Richard Pryor, George Carlin and other hot comics!

We can get at least a 30 issue series of The Comedian killing JFK!

This is a GOLD MINE PEOPLE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradito 

Could be worse. Could be "Watchmen vs. Predator."

Actually some of the "..vs Predator" comics are pretty decent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

 

Bottom line for me: the original graphic novel is still there on my shelf, unfucked-with. I may shake my head at the sensibility that led to this being a reality, but I can't get too worked up about it. The surprise, really, is that it took this long to happen.

 

This pretty much sums up how I feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

For me, it's not about fucking with the originals, because of course these will be forgotten in a year. It's about how fucked up the comic book industry is, and how creativity is literally the last priority for them. This isn't going to damage Watchmen, but it's also not going to help superhero comics move to a healthier place. It's the equivalent of the endless stream of reboots and remakes coming out of Hollywood.

This made me think of it in a different light. As in, it is actually something to get annoyed about.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

You guys are all high there's PLENTY of stories to explore in teh Watchman Universe:

 

How did Rorschach get his scarf?

 

How does NiteOwl make all his equipment? Does he really make it all himself?

 

The Silk Spectre.....lets' see ALL the details of her alternative lifestyle! In Color! Fuck it, 3D!

 

Did The Comedian ever actually do Stand-up? I see guest cameos by Richard Pryor, George Carlin and other hot comics!

 

We can get at least a 30 issue series of The Comedian killing JFK!

 

This is a GOLD MINE PEOPLE!

And this made me laugh out loud (especially 'How did Rorscach get his scarf?')

See, if someone took The Watchmen and presented them in a completely different context like that, I wouldn't find it half as bad because at least then they wouldn't be trying to expand on a story that doesn't need expanding.

In other words, I'd buy the shit out of a Watchmen Babies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

Bottom line for me: the original graphic novel is still there on my shelf, unfucked-with. I may shake my head at the sensibility that led to this being a reality, but I can't get too worked up about it. The surprise, really, is that it took this long to happen.

 

Martin, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

I can almost smell JMS, Azzarello and co. sitting there, trying to work out how the sweet fuck they're going to actually do this. I can almost hear DC's execs ordering new yachts based on the astronomical profits that will most likely never come in. I can almost feel the internet suffering the birth pangs of a million new annoying memes. I can almost see the holy firestorm of geek rage that, when these dumb fucking things are released, will sweep over and flay us like the flames of the Ark lashed Indy and Marion.

Watchmen is one of the greatest comics ever made. This? This is just gonna be fucking funny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Key Twitter Comments:

 

"I'm sure the Watchmen series will be just as good as all of DC's attempts to carry on the New Gods w/out Jack Kirby."

 

I take direct offense for that one, simple because Simonson's run on "Orion" was fantastic.

They should expand Nite Owl's cast to really make the most of this. He should meet Nite Mite, his biggest fan from the 5th Dimension. Nite Owl could also join up with Nite Woman, Nite Girl, Nitewing and his sidekick Owl Boy.

WTF is the Rorschach prequel going to do? We already know his backstory. Will this be Rorschach: the Lost Years between adolescence and the early days of the Watchmen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Untitled 

They should expand Nite Owl's cast to really make the most of this. He should meet Nite Mite, his biggest fan from the 5th Dimension. Nite Owl could also join up with Nite Woman, Nite Girl, Nitewing and his sidekick Owl Boy.

Don't forget Ace the Nite-Hound!

No you have to be meta and edgy. The Nite-hound will be called Joker.

I just want to see Blot the Dog, Moore's joking reductio ad absurdum he floated in one interview or another about what DC would do with Rorschach.

Rorschach and his trusty Blot the Dog — I would read the fuck out of that and so would each and every one of you DO NOT EVEN FRONT.

In all seriousness, the only Rorschach comic that would truly matter would be written and drawn by Mr. Stephen J. Ditko.

I think this is a clear difference between the Levitz and Didio regimes. I don't expect any of these comics to be bad, but I expect them all to ultimately be unnecessary.

I do think we should be clear that the rights issue isn't directly about money on Moore's end. I think it's pretty clear that he and Gibbons did well financially through the deal they signed. DC's sold the hell out of the book, whoever got Watchmen in the science fiction book club back in the day is probably the unsung hero of Watchmen as a commercial success, they've been a rock steady publisher always paying their royalties on time, and they've taken good care of their book store sales. Probably the only one that could have offered as good a deal as DC was Marvel and they've never been really interested in promoting creator owned stuff over their own material. On a financial end, I don't think Moore and Gibbons could have done any better. And they could have done a lot worse like the mess that Miracleman turned out to be. Or Big Numbers.

But, it's clear that Moore felt DC didn't live up to their bargain. Perhaps he shouldn't feel that way, but that's largely irrelevant. To me that conflict isn't so much that Moore isn't benefiting sufficiently from DC owning the rights but that Moore simply feels that DC shouldn't benefit in any way.

Unfortunately for Moore, he signed a contract and contract's are very difficult to get out of. And Moore's never been interested in much of a compromise. So, ultimately Moore was offering DC nothing of value to the corporation while the corporation restrained itself from exploiting the Watchmen property due to Levitz's respect for Moore. Didio's never had a relationship with Moore, so it's not surprising that he simply has written off Moore as being irrelevant to DC's bottom line. That's where the disrespect lies, although I certainly understand why Moore saying for years that he'd never work for DC in any capacity might have backfired when DC finally said "we believe you".

The other thing about Moore's contract is that the rights to Watchmen were supposed to revert back to Moore and Gibbons once the book had been out of print for a year, and at that time, the idea of a comic book series staying in print in trade paperback form for decades was unheard of, so he and Gibbons would have had some realistic expectation of getting the property back.

Whether DC's subsequent publishing strategy for Watchmen was in any way a deliberate attempt to subvert that (as Moore believed), or whether they had simply stumbled on the property that, along with Dark Knight Returns, was going to essentially create the market for comic TPB's, is at this point moot. I tend to think the latter is more likely, but I can understand why Moore might not agree.

Moore and Gibbons were banking on comics, which had less than 10 years of history selling tpbs, not catching up to the rest of the publishing industry. Frankly, I interpret the position of the publishers as "we'll sell as many tpbs as we can, and when we can't sell any more at a profit, we'll turn the rights back over to you".

Which, for the vast majority of creators, is perfectly fine. The more copies that a publisher can sell, the more money in royalties the publisher pays. And, by all accounts, DC's been very, very good at selling WATCHMEN and have paid Moore and Gibbons an enormous amount in royalties. Financially the only comic publisher that could compete with what DC offered was probably Marvel and I doubt they would have done as good a job. The deal that Moore and Gibbons signed was very, very good for them purely on a monetary basis and about the best deal that anyone signed in the '80s. Well, other than Eastman & Laird.

If relations between DC and Alan Moore had remained cordial, the DC hasn't returned the characters issue would be a non-issue. But, DC corporate screwed with Moore & Gibbons over merchandise and there was an editorial falling out when DC wanted to introduce ratings without consulting the writers and artists, including Alan Moore.

To me this isn't so much about Moore & Gibbons feeling that they've been inadequately compensated, and I'm sure WATCHMEN royalties helped pay the bills while he was working on From Hell which due to Hollywood ultimately proved to be very financially beneficial to Moore, but rather Alan Moore seeing someone profit from his work that he'd rather not have profiting from his work. Which, frankly, came off as petty at times. Complaining about someone making a film years after you willingly sold the rights for someone to make a film isn't a legitimate beef, IMO.

Which is too bad, since I think Moore has a legitimate beef with BEFORE WATCHMEN. As potential rights holders, he should have some say in whether new stuff is added to WATCHMEN. And, if it's up to editorial snuff and consistent with his vision.

I don't know that Moore's issue was ever compensation (in dollar/pound/euro/whatever terms) so much as it was ownership. And, as you acknowledge, neither party involved could have foreseen the changed landscape that lay ahead.

In retrospect, Moore and Gibbons' expectations of eventually receiving control of their creation was unrealistic; at the time, it didn't appear so.

Moore totally should've written a shitty miniseries that didn't sell and wouldn't be reprinted over and over again. It's his own fault for writing an awesome game-changer.

...That's not a shot at anyone here. Just saying. It is a bit ironic that Moore created something that probably wouldn't even be on his personal top-ten list of stuff he's written, and it ended up being a perpetual pain in his balls. Plus when he dies it's gonna be "Alan Moore, writer of Watchmen..." I believe him when he says he doesn't even have a copy in the house.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

Moore totally should've written a shitty miniseries that didn't sell and wouldn't be reprinted over and over again. It's his own fault for writing an awesome game-changer.

 

...That's not a shot at anyone here. Just saying. It is a bit ironic that Moore created something that probably wouldn't even be on his personal top-ten list of stuff he's written, and it ended up being a perpetual pain in his balls. Plus when he dies it's gonna be "Alan Moore, writer of Watchmen..." I believe him when he says he doesn't even have a copy in the house.

Wonder how the Conan Doyle comparison would sit with him. Certainly they both seem to be strong believers in the supernatural, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

Moore totally should've written a shitty miniseries that didn't sell and wouldn't be reprinted over and over again. It's his own fault for writing an awesome game-changer.

 

...That's not a shot at anyone here. Just saying. It is a bit ironic that Moore created something that probably wouldn't even be on his personal top-ten list of stuff he's written, and it ended up being a perpetual pain in his balls. Plus when he dies it's gonna be "Alan Moore, writer of Watchmen..." I believe him when he says he doesn't even have a copy in the house.

Yeah, but there's also a good chance that Moore's house was paid for with Watchmen money. And that Watchmen money gave him the freedom to do From Hell and Lost Girls.

Leaving aside those ironies, I want to add that whether or not Moore's complaints of the past have been overblown or whether or not he's hypocritical with respect to other creators wishes, I fully back the p.o.v. that the Didio regime is being deliberately disrespectful to the wishes of one of the most important creators in DC's long history. For no real reason other than it suits the bottom line. There certainly are ways to explore, celebrate, and respond to the legacy of Watchmen without being crassly exploitive. The long simmering Morrison/Quitely Multiversity project being one way. One doesn't have to buy into Alan Moore, exploited as much as Siegel & Shuster myth to note that Before Watchmen is the triumph of bottom line corporate stripmining over creators rights and wishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradito 

Could be worse. Could be "Watchmen vs. Predator."

Congrats, you've just given them an idea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

Watch them sell well. And then wait for the crossovers.

Yep, and the above listed one will inevitably happen.  After all, Aliens & Predators have already battle Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, JLA, Wild CATS, Terminator, Magnus the Robot Fighter, Judge Dredd, Tarzen, The Darkness, Witchblade, etc................................Watchmen is inevitable!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love Machine 

Actually some of the "..vs Predator" comics are pretty decent.

 

This is true.

Jeb has already commented on this thread, but the rest of us Comic Chewers chime in...

http://www.chud.com/82448/thors-comic-column-23/

Alright, I know I've said it before, but are we all just going to pretend those Watchmen prequel games didn't happen? Because they happened people. I HAVE THE MENTAL SCARS TO PROVE IT. I guess the hub-bub is that it's comics, which make it worse? I don't know, I guess I sort of blew my load on the Watchmen movie controversy (a movie which I actually liked quite a bit), but the idea of DC or Marvel returning to ravage the corpse of one of their properties, even a really good one, at this point just seems...eh.

And I know it makes me a bad person, but I would totally read a Jason Aaron penned Watchmen comic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatoon 

Alright, I know I've said it before, but are we all just going to pretend those Watchmen prequel games didn't happen?

 

THANK YOU! People are all "WTF! Fucking with Watchmen" when they "fucked with Watchmen" in the FUCKING 80's AND NO ONE CARED!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

THANK YOU! People are all "WTF! Fucking with Watchmen" when they "fucked with Watchmen" in the FUCKING 80's AND NO ONE CARED!

Wait, are you talking about that pen and paper RPG? Because I'm talking about the Watchmen: The End is Nigh video-games from a few years back. Though now that you remind me...hey, there was a fucking Watchmen RPG in the 80s! What the fuck! That's like two different instances of prequelizing fuckery! Fuck!

Alan Moore was involved in the 80's RPG in a respectable capacity I think.