CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › Time for a new Matrix discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Time for a new Matrix discussion - Page 3

post #101 of 245

Jaysus, those are some fancy cookies.

post #102 of 245

We have stumbled upon the rarer form of nerd; rarer than that which seeks validation, or even that which claims that it's not seeking validation when it secretly is: the nerd who seeks invalidation.

 

We must be cautious.

post #103 of 245
I... am complicated.

But also simple.

Which makes me complicated!!!
post #104 of 245

YOU'RE A JOKE AND EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IS A LIE!

 

Am I doing this right? 

post #105 of 245

To be fair, after observing this pathetic species for a long time, I must say this: desperation isn't really perceived as desperation by the desperate. So while the Wachowskis might appear desperate to us if they do go back to The Matrix well, they might not actually be aware of their own desperation. Also, desperation breeds creativity more often than not, especially for the creatively gifted. While we'd love to paint such individuals as equanimous in the face of every possible outcome when their endeavors are released to the public, they might not be the Buddhist Zen monks we think they are and as such, might be motivated to turn to more reliable "cash cows" without realizing why they're doing so.

 

... Dammit, shouldn't have eaten those cookies.

post #106 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post
 

Jesus aren't you a joyless individual.

 

Have a cookie.

 

He's actually channeling me.

post #107 of 245

And if this is true, I'm sure the siblings at least have an interesting take.  And since they don't have the same kind of carte blanche they did after the first Matrix made them stars, the studio may force them to continually rewrite the script until it's perfect.  But that's assuming WB even cares about quality, which they probably don't.  The see "new Matrix films" and just greenlight it as long as it's 90 minutes or more...it could be all blank pages and they'd still greenlight it.

post #108 of 245

We won't be seeing any new Matrix movies with the Wachowskis involved.  Yes, they made money 10 years ago, but no studio executive could fail to see that diminishing returns had set in big time by the end of the series.  And nothing the Wachowskis have done since has done anything to make them appear more viable as commercial franchise helmers. 

 

Plus Revolutions, whatever its faults, was a very definitive ending to that particular story.  If the Wachs do have another idea, it's probably something pretty far removed and more esoteric than the kung fu epic stuff that got everyone to sit through the philosphising the first time around.

post #109 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora Vampiris View Post
 

desperation isn't really perceived as desperation by the desperate.

Spoken like somebody who has never been desperate. 

post #110 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

We won't be seeing any new Matrix movies with the Wachowskis involved.  Yes, they made money 10 years ago, but no studio executive could fail to see that diminishing returns had set in big time by the end of the series.  And nothing the Wachowskis have done since has done anything to make them appear more viable as commercial franchise helmers.

Which is a shame!  Because they HAVE done a lot of cool work. 

post #111 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

We won't be seeing any new Matrix movies with the Wachowskis involved.  

 

Studios are notoriously superstitious.  It's the reason M. Night Shyamalan kept getting films made, because the studios believed he may do it again...that is, generate lightning in a bottle like on The Sixth Sense, no matter how improbable and far fetched that may seem based on his dwindling talent.  But studios don't work on logic as much as people think.  If the siblings want to make new Matrix films, WB is going to let them direct it, because they may do it again (and it's only reason JA got greenlit).  While having someone else involved may seem practical, from the studios' perspective, it's actually worse, since those new filmmakers were not part of that original Matrix magic.  And original properties tend to scare studios, so having the original creators on board is like an insurance policy.

 

No, it doesn't make any sense, but it's Hollywood.

post #112 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

Spoken like somebody who has never been desperate. 

 

Of course not. I'm not like you people. I'm at the top of the food chain.

 

... Sarcasm.

post #113 of 245

I'm making it sound like I want the Wachowskis to fail, and I don't. They are daring filmmakers and I want them out there making movies. I just hope that of this happens, it is motivated by creative inspiration and not the need to have what might be wrongly perceived as a sure-fire success. 

post #114 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora Vampiris View Post
 

 

Of course not. I'm not like you people. I'm at the top of the food chain.

 

... Sarcasm.

Friend of mine can help you with that.

 

 

 

I was very, VERY unsold on them after the two Matrix sequels, and pretty much convinced they were dumb hacks.  But honestly they've done a lot of work I have genuinely embraced after the fact, so I guess the rambling, melodramatic bullshit sequels were just a fit of temporary insanity that has since leveled out? 

post #115 of 245

post #116 of 245

If I masturbate to that gif does that make it a paradox? 

post #117 of 245

You mean "when".

post #118 of 245

The answer would be, currently. 

post #119 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

The answer would be, currently. 
Warning: Open when done! (Click to show)

post #120 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
 

I'm making it sound like I want the Wachowskis to fail, and I don't. 

Certainly doesn't sound like it.

 

KILL THE SPEED RACER-DISSENTER. KILL THE WITCH!!!

post #121 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAIRUS View Post
  Warning: Open when done! (Click to show)


Annnnnnnd I'm finished.

post #122 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

The answer would be, currently. 

 

TWO DAYS LATER.....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 


Annnnnnnd I'm finished.

 

You should probably go to a hospital, Freeman. 

post #123 of 245
I didn't know Hermione had Tourette's.
post #124 of 245

Apparently this thread title needed to be a lot more specific. 

post #125 of 245
Carrie Anne Moss must be checking her phone about as often as any gal I've ever gone on a date with.
post #126 of 245

There's literally no fluid left in my body.  Oh God. 

post #127 of 245
Keep us posted, Freeman.
post #128 of 245

I'm going to give you guys all your own vials, Community style. 

post #129 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

There's literally no fluid left in my body.  Oh God. 

 

post #130 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

I'm going to give you guys all your own vials, Community style. 
Do I get a bunch of money if I ride your boat, leaving my best friend behind?

I'll do it.
post #131 of 245
bellucci-monica-matrix-6012.jpg
I like to see her cameo
Edited by dilla7 - 3/5/14 at 12:08pm
post #132 of 245

I'd like to see her camel toe.

post #133 of 245

Had a bit of a Matrix binge on the weekend. The first was on TCM so I watched the sequels, the animatrix* and played a bit of The Path of Neo (Man has that aged badly).

 

The first remains perfect and the sequels are what they are; entertaining action films. Reloaded works better than Revolutions. I was struck by how little time (Super Brawl excluded) is given to Neo and Smith in the third film. I think it was Ambler that said that Neo completing his arc in the first one was a mistake. I don't personally think it was a mistake but it's certainly detrimental here. He has no humanity here, say what you want about Reeves but he played Neo 1.0 with a sense of humor. He's not surfer dude Reeves but there is character there. In the sequels Reeves plays Neo with less emotion than the computer programs (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that was an intentional choice by him and the Wachowskis). He's not a man anymore he's just a weapon, so his inevitable sacrifice just has no resonance. Seeing Neo struggle with the knowledge that he has to die would add emotional weight to the climax, it's bizarre that it's glossed over.

 

Revolutions greatest sin is that it just isn't that fun (Hugo Weaving not withstanding). Removing the focus from Neo, Trinity and Smith is near catastrophic. What we're left is barely established characters and characters who were only established in Enter the Matrix. I don't care about Ghost or Zee's Rocket Launcher sidekick (Though I will say that Roland is unintentionally great "Goddamnit! He's outta his Goddamn mind, Goddamnit. GODDAMN!"). The original crew of the Nebuchadnezzar had so much more personality than these people. It's easy to say this after the fact but imagine if Dozer, Tank, Switch and Apock were in the seige of Zion. I was far more invested in Mouse than I was in The Kid. It makes for a bafflingly unengaging climax.

 

Having said all that it cannot be overstated how jawdropping Keanu Reeve's physical work in these films is. If I recall correctly he had little to no formal martial arts training before the first film. That considered, what he accomplishes in the Burley Brawl and The Chateau Fight is near inhuman. He makes it look powerful and graceful and effortless. When the Burley Brawl flicks to CGI it's jarring and hideous but it's disappointing because we're not watching Reeves, Weaving and the stunt team anymore. People give Reeves flack but my God that gorgeous motherfucker is professional.

 

 

*The Second Renaissance is comfortably the second best piece of Matrix media.


Edited by Mike's Pants - 3/11/14 at 6:39am
post #134 of 245
The point about resolving Neo's transition into the role and identity of the One too soon is an excellent one.

My chief gripes with the trilogy are (a) that they never raise the question of how human beings trust their senses in the real world, how they never wonder whether they might just be in a harsher version of the Matrix, set aside for those who need it; and (b) that the first film, in particular, never teases us with the possibility that the Matrix is the real world, that Neo might just be an ordinary white collar office worker who has been kidnapped by a modern day Symbionese Liberation Army, fed a heavy trip while he was hopped up on goofballs, and sent out to commit acts of terrorism. Either option could have added significant tension and both are practically handed to the Wachowskis with the plot that they've set up for themselves.
post #135 of 245

Those are some cool plot possibilities, Reasor. Wouldn't exactly make for a triumphant transition into the Rage Against The Machine song+credits though, hehe.

 

it's been a few years since I went through the later Invisibles issues, but I think they may have covered some of that territory as well. At least the heavy questioning of their own violent acts part.

 

If the Wachowskis ever made another Matrix, I would go apeshit. Bad Zion parts and crappy replacement Oracle aside, I love all the movies to death. I'd probably go back to full blown teenager movie anticipation mode (Reloaded came out when I was 18).

 

We pretty much have the next best thing with Jupiter Ascending, though. I can't concieve of any reason why they won't absolutely nail this movie. A new universe, new sci fi concepts, crazy mutant genetic hybrid creatures, the promise of slow mo gunfights, and maybe even some Matrix-worthy money shots? Plus, they've grown as dramatic directors with Cloud Atlas. It's my #1 for 2014 by a mile.

post #136 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Pants View Post
 

I think it was Ambler that said that Neo completing his arc in the first one was a mistake. I don't personally think it was a mistake but it's certainly detrimental here. 

 

post #137 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

The point about resolving Neo's transition into the role and identity of the One too soon is an excellent one.

 

To me it would be like Luke becoming a Jedi at the end of A New Hope...obviously Empire and Jedi wouldn't have nearly the same dramatic weight.

 

The first Matrix could've easily ended with Neo not totally resolving his Oneness, but showing enough skill to prove a formidable foe to Smith and the machines.  The thing that really makes it flounder to me is that at the end of Matrix 1, the threat is not really resolved (the machines still exist), yet Neo's central journey from schmoe to god as a dramatic element IS resolved.  To me, since he was linked to the machines in the sequels, his journey should've been linked as well, with him becoming SUPER NEO in the 3rd film, but also having to sacrifice himself with those new abilities.  The epic end Brawl with Smith would've been much more powerful IMO if Neo had JUST become THE ONE moments prior and was really primed to kick ass.  As it stand, that end brawl feels weightless and monotonous, because we've already seen Neo do that stuff.  I understand the Wachowski's probably didn't know whether or not they'd get to make sequels, so were probably hedging their bets, but it's not an excuse to me that matters.  I personally think they should've held back a little.

 

I've debated this already, so know others don't agree, and that's totally okay.

post #138 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post
 

 Wouldn't exactly make for a triumphant transition into the Rage Against The Machine song+credits though, hehe.

 

My God, the closing minute of that film does things to me. Whenever I'm watching it I always crank the volume up.

post #139 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

To me it would be like Luke becoming a Jedi at the end of A New Hope...obviously Empire and Jedi wouldn't have nearly the same dramatic weight.

The first Matrix could've easily ended with Neo not totally resolving his Oneness, but showing enough skill to prove a formidable foe to Smith and the machines.  The thing that really makes it flounder to me is that at the end of Matrix 1, the threat is not really resolved (the machines still exist), yet Neo's central journey from schmoe to god as a dramatic element IS resolved.  To me, since he was linked to the machines in the sequels, his journey should've been linked as well, with him becoming SUPER NEO in the 3rd film, but also having to sacrifice himself with those new abilities.  The epic end Brawl with Smith would've been much more powerful IMO if Neo had JUST become THE ONE moments prior and was really primed to kick ass.  As it stand, that end brawl feels weightless and monotonous, because we've already seen Neo do that stuff.  I understand the Wachowski's probably didn't know whether or not they'd get to make sequels, so were probably hedging their bets, but it's not an excuse to me that matters.  I personally think they should've held back a little.

I've debated this already, so know others don't agree, and that's totally okay.

I can't argue with that. I just feel it would rob the first of it's triumphant ending. The Matrix works as a self contained story, sure we don't get the details of how the humans triumphed against the machines but it ending with "Then Neo flew off and kicked all kinds of ass" is a satisfying conclusion, in my opinion at least.

Your alternative is great and improves Revolutions immensely but I think it would lessen the ending of the first.
post #140 of 245
I think the end fight in Revolutions has the point that while Neo is at his full powers, as is Smith, and they are essentially equals (due to Colonel Sanders balancing everything out). The power of choice and his own self sacrifice has more meaning because as opposed to Agent Smith, that is eventually bound by rules of programs, he can make a choice. That choice was to stop fighting.

The movies were never really about his powers, but his choices and what to do with them. Even at the beginning of Reloaded, he has all these powers, but he has no idea what to do with them. He has Morpheus singing his praises about being the savior, but he has no idea what to do really. So by the final film, he is gaining something all the more, the power to control his destiny and not believe in any of that fate crap (which ultimately Smith is bound to).
post #141 of 245

Just watch the Lego Movie why not?

post #142 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAIRUS View Post

I think the end fight in Revolutions has the point that while Neo is at his full powers, as is Smith, and they are essentially equals (due to Colonel Sanders balancing everything out). The power of choice and his own self sacrifice has more meaning because as opposed to Agent Smith, that is eventually bound by rules of programs, he can make a choice. That choice was to stop fighting.

The movies were never really about his powers, but his choices and what to do with them. Even at the beginning of Reloaded, he has all these powers, but he has no idea what to do with them. He has Morpheus singing his praises about being the savior, but he has no idea what to do really. So by the final film, he is gaining something all the more, the power to control his destiny and not believe in any of that fate crap (which ultimately Smith is bound to).

 

I understand the reasoning behind it, it's just not that compelling to me...or at least the way the Wachowskis presented it was not that compelling.  IMO there was a far more satisfying trilogy to be had if the Wachowskis had held back a little.  Essentially part 2 and 3 feels like alot of wheel spinning, because watching Keanu be confused for 2 movies while being a god is about as boring as it gets.

post #143 of 245
Boring, but BALLSY!!!
post #144 of 245

Oh I agree, I'm glad they took those chances because it doesn't happen often.  I just think they didn't put as much polish into thr sequel scripts as the first one, which they were forced to rewrite by the studio until it was perfect.

post #145 of 245

Oh most indubitably!!!

post #146 of 245

While I think the Wachowskis, being the talent that they are, could definitely have focused the sequels better (which I still love, but only revisit a few scenes overall, because when they work holy hell do they work) regardless, but in thinking of the time the first one was made. WB was greenlighting this brand new experimental cyberpunk anime kung fu movie, in English, starring Keanu 'Johnny Mnemonic' Reeves, the amount of risk-aversion in that risk must've been legendary. The only sci-fi movie ever getting a sequel that year was Star Wars, and that was because Star Wars. And this was the age before all of this sequelization and 'let's make a fucking trilogy' bullshit like nowadays, so I would bet the Wachowskis were told to tell it in one. And that one movie, my god, it's a benchmark. It works so well as a proto-typical savior story that I wouldn't change a single thing, certainly wouldn't leave the viewers wondering 'well, is he Jesus yet or what?'

 

I love the idea behind the sequels more than the total of them, that the One was just another form of control, that there had been others before Neo, it takes your Campbellian archetype and bombastically turns it on your head. Sure, you're special, but hey, we got an app for that, too. Add that I'm pretty sure most everyone inside the Matrix ends up dead at the very end (though I haven't watched in a while) and Revolutions takes on a much more sinister undertone beneath that rainbow. (Though I like to think maybe they all wake up...which might be worse...)

post #147 of 245
See I know I'm one of the few out there that is borderline fascinated at the ideas in the sequels more than their execution. If I'm going to watch one on a whim, it'll be the first one, but if it's time to have a discussion, lets whip out the sequels. They're a real tough chore to digest, but if you look deep enough, you'll find the answers. Thing is, you gotta spend a lot of time digging.

I think the same thing applies to The Dark Knight Rises.

Also what happened to Don Davis? His score just happened to click on (Navras from Revolutions btw). I remember at the time the soundtracks were amazing (still are to some extent).
post #148 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin View Post
 

 the amount of risk-aversion in that risk must've been legendary. The only sci-fi movie ever getting a sequel that year was Star Wars, and that was because Star Wars. And this was the age before all of this sequelization and 'let's make a fucking trilogy' bullshit like nowadays, so I would bet the Wachowskis were told to tell it in one. 

 

Actually sequel mania had been happening for quite a while before The Matrix.  And the Wachowski's let the studio know from the beginning it was a trilogy and they were receptive to that.  So there was always a plan in place.  The studio had alot of confidence in that script, and there is no doubt they were hoping for sequels because that means franchise which means a shit ton of money.  The decision to make Neo THE ONE at the end of the first Matrix was most likely the Wachowski's.  The studio only cared that it was a good movie.

post #149 of 245
Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that the Bros wanted to do only one sequel and possibly one prequel?
post #150 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAIRUS View Post

I think the same thing applies to The Dark Knight Rises.
 

ew no

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Franchises
CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › Time for a new Matrix discussion