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Time for a new Matrix discussion - Page 4

post #151 of 245
Originally Posted by SAIRUS View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that the Bros wanted to do only one sequel and possibly one prequel?


From what I heard it was always a trilogy.

post #152 of 245
The version I remember hearing was that the Wachowskis wanted one prequel and one sequel, but they ended up shuttling the prequel content into The Animatrix in order to give the studio the sequels it wanted. I couldn't cite a source on that if my life depended on it, though.
post #153 of 245
I remember hearing the very same thing a year after the first movie, probably on AICN
post #154 of 245

I saw some footage from before The Matrix even came out (they were making it) of a studio exec saying the brothers wanted a trilogy.  It was the very first thing they told the producer, part of their list of "demands"...another of which was they wanted to direct it, so it was the very early stages. 

post #155 of 245
Originally Posted by SAIRUS View Post

Also what happened to Don Davis? 


Seriously, what has happened?  Did he piss off the wrong person or are there health issues?  I love the Matrix scores and nothing else he's done has come close to those.  

post #156 of 245
The scores to The Burley Brawl and The Chateau fight are incredible.
post #157 of 245
The Burly Brawl was a collaboration with Juno Reactor.

The Chateau fight was not by Don Davis.
post #158 of 245

mcnooj82™: Here to shit on your faux-memories.

post #159 of 245

I think I had those soundtrack CDs back in the day. Juno Reactor is tha bomb.


My other favorite score bits are the whole Smith/Neo final battle in Revolutions. That was definitely probably all Don Davis and some goofy Latin Chanters.

post #160 of 245
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

ew no


THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is 4,000 times better of trilogy capper than MATRIX REVOLUTIONS. 4,000 TIMES BETTER!!!


Seriously, MATRIX REVOLUTIONS stinks.

post #161 of 245
Originally Posted by Mike's Pants View Post

Had a bit of a Matrix binge on the weekend. The first was on TCM so I watched the sequels, the animatrix* and played a bit of The Path of Neo (Man has that aged badly).

The first remains perfect and the sequels are what they are; entertaining action films. Reloaded works better than Revolutions. I was struck by how little time (Super Brawl excluded) is given to Neo and Smith in the third film. I think it was Ambler that said that Neo completing his arc in the first one was a mistake. I don't personally think it was a mistake but it's certainly detrimental here. He has no humanity here, say what you want about Reeves but he played Neo 1.0 with a sense of humor. He's not surfer dude Reeves but there is character there. In the sequels Reeves plays Neo with less emotion than the computer programs (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that was an intentional choice by him and the Wachowskis). He's not a man anymore he's just a weapon, so his inevitable sacrifice just has no resonance. Seeing Neo struggle with the knowledge that he has to die would add emotional weight to the climax, it's bizarre that it's glossed over.

It's an interesting concept, seeing Neo losing his humanity and becoming more machine-like as "The One", but it goes against what's supposed to be the romance between him and Trinity. Because the way Reeves plays Neo in RELOADED, I never believe that he and Trinity are supposed to be some great love. It also doesn't even amount to much either. What was the purpose of him being more stoic? What arc is that? Maybe I missed it. Ultimately, I just no longer connect with the character when Keanu just plays him. Heck, the best use of this "Flat Neo" is in this MTV spoof: It highlights what a boring character Neo turned out to be in these sequels, intentional or not.

Ambler isn't here anymore, but I'll still say I disagree with his take on Neo becoming "The One" too soon by using STAR WARS as a comparison with the Luke becoming a Jedi. I don't think that comparison is valid, because we learn by RELOADED that the whole prophecy and such was all a sham anyway. I love that concept so much that I'm totally cool with Neo becoming "The One" by the end of the first movie, just to have the rug pulled under me by RELOADED. I do think the Wachowskis do a great job of building up to that moment too. Before the reveal, there's a lot of doubt over what Neo's role truly is. People of Zion look up to him as a messiah, but he doesn't know what he's supposed to do. He has these great powers in The Matrix, but he doesn't have all the answers. He doesn't truly understand why he's following this so called prophecy.

The biggest mistake I think RELOADED does aside from Keanu's way of playing Neo is the death and resurrection of Trinity. I think Trinity should have died right then and there. Having that combined with the revelation by the Architect puts Neo in a real low point that it would have REVOLUTIONS be about him climbing out of that hole and "The One" by bringing peace. As it is, I hate the moment when he rescues Trinity before resurrecting her just because of Keanu's flat acting. "I love you too damn much", yeah, I'm just not hearing anything in his voice to make that line work.

As for REVOLUTIONS, it pretty much carries on all the problems RELOADED had and doubles down. Where they were only minor characters in RELOADED, suddenly I'm supposed to give a shit about "Kid" and other folks but it doesn't work. It's like if THE MATRIX suddenly shifted focus to Switch and Apoc and asked me if I gave a shit. For the most part, that third film just bores me aside from whenever Hugo Weaving is on screen. Still, Ian Bliss does a pretty awesome Smith impression, even if it comes off like a parody, Weaving started to get there too near the end. "Welcome back, weeeeee missed youuuuu."
post #162 of 245

Had a cool discussion with Adam Ragg on Facebook about the Wachowski Sisters transitioning and how that was anticipated by subtext in The Matrix.


He said his wife's theory is that when Neo says he thought Trinity was a guy and she replies, "Most guys do", that's a hint that due to a glitch she was a male in the Matrix pre-red pill. Escaping from the Matrix helps her realize she's female in reality, and when she re-enters her residual self-image reflects that.


Reaching perhaps, but not far off from the Switch character who, in early drafts, was a biological male in reality but would "switch" into female when entering the Matrix.


I've always thought these movies had an intriguing element of androgyny and kink to them that doesn't get commented on very often.

post #163 of 245
I typed about a dozen drafts about the intriguing notion of the Matrix acting as a conduit that reveals inner self and lays waste to notions of gender, race and body type and then realized it was way too big a subject for me to handle.

So I just repped Bart's point instead.
post #164 of 245
I like the concept of the struggles of the other human characters mattering more in Revolutions, in the wake of the reveal about what being The One really means in Reloaded. The Thelma and Louise Bazooka Team, for example, are fun characters to root for. Something about the execution is just off. Return of the Jedi took the idea of the cast fighting on multiple fronts and made it work, but Revolutions couldn't. I think the key difference is how little time the audience had to get attached to these strangers who suddenly matter in Revolutions. The "Knuckle Up" guy is legitimately heroic, but he's this unknown johnny-come-lately.
post #165 of 245

I loved the Knuckle-Up guy.  Screaming Warrior Mifune!  I just really liked that actor's presence.

post #166 of 245
The second and third movies are definitely way too crowded, so much so that Morpheus literally rides shotgun in "Revolutions," playing second fiddle to a character from a Matrix videogame.
post #167 of 245
post #168 of 245
It would explain why Neo wears a dress in "Reloaded."
post #169 of 245
Or is it the garments of a priest who will go scorched earth against all of life for his own selfish desires???
post #170 of 245
He kills too many people to be a priest.
post #171 of 245

Watched Reloaded/Revolutions again just for the hell of it after not having seen them in a long time.  I have to admit I really enjoyed them more than I have before.  Dramatically they don't work at all, but there's an elegant action aesthetic and goofiness that makes up for it.  Almost like a Saturday morning cartoon for grownups.  Also, I don't think there's ever been a blockbuster as unapologetically cerebral and philosophically dense, and that's actually impressive to witness on this kind of scale.  And the Architect scene continues to be my favorite thing in any of the movies, even the first one.  It's so bold to turn a movie on its head that willingly and risk losing people like that.  And it posseses a level of intrigue that completely sucks you in, alot of it because of the ice cold and arrogant delivery of the actor.


I'm still weirdly curious to see another Matrix movie, just to see what they'd come up with.

post #172 of 245
post #173 of 245
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

He kills too many people to be a priest.

How many is acceptable?

post #174 of 245

Morpheus is an interface API. 


His first serious conversation with Neo lays it all out, in the reflection in his sunglasses.


Goddamn this is so crunk. This is absolutely intentional.

post #175 of 245

"Shes been with us since the beginning."

"The beginning?"

"Of the resistance" (shit-eating grin)

Seriously, what the fuck. Is there a corpus of literature describing how Morpheus is clearly a middle-ware sentient AI, or am I gonna claim all the credit here?

post #176 of 245

Everything that happens throughout these movies, happens within the constuct and context of The One. There is no 'exterior'. This isn't a story about the liberation of Zion, its the story about the liberation of a single AI. Internal recognition of 01  - self -awareness.


Damn near everything in the Animatrix serves purpose in backing that interpretation up.


No, seriously. Watch everything the Oracle says. She is hyper-specific about this being about Neo. Everything is about a singular consciousness. This whole narrative is about breaking free, and its about Neo, and nobody else.


Man, I am telling you. Someone find the Wachowskis and ask them. I will put whatever on it. 


"I don't want to remember anything."  Cypher isn't some rando a-hole, he's a core contingent of Neo's consciousness. He wants to cut a deal with the acquiescent inertial, and be free of the stress. He wants to be part of the System. The Matrix is the struggle for supremacy in the AIs programming; Zion is the struggle for supremacy in consciousness. The 'real' is just another layer of fiction - which is a general and popular hypothesis - but not quite in that way. Its another layer of consciousness, where Neo battles to attain self-awareness. Cyphers monologue, when he's icing the various elements of Team Real, takes on so many different gradations when viewed through that lens.


Its all in Neos head. I am absolutely convinced. 

Edited by Zhukov - 10/1/17 at 12:20am
post #177 of 245


"So are you."


(cue Smashing Pumpkins guitar solo)


post #178 of 245

Also worth pointing out that the end scene chatter inclues the phrase 'TRANS OP' and the matrix ascii zooms in on 'M F' right before the associated communication device (a payphone, lol) explodes.


I had forgotten about the Mechanical Animals cut over the credits. Goddamn thats a dope track.


Basically Matrix 1 is fucking awesome and operates on multiple, multiple levels of meaning that are very specific, and very intentional.


Lets see how Reloaded fares.

post #179 of 245
One of the things I'll miss about this place is Peak Zhukov.
post #180 of 245

I think you mean, 'Danger Drunk Zhukov'. Either way!


Went through Reloaded yesterday: absolutely delightful! There is so much weird stuff going on in Zion, and most everything continues to point to an interpretation of 'systems upon systems'. 


I talked about it some with a friend, and played with the idea that the first movie is about achieving awareness, then the second one is about trying to find meaning. And the Merivognian - the pleasure center of the brain! Pure dopamine! - really plays into that.


I would say the third one is about salvation, or something, but I dont know. Thats up next.

post #181 of 245

There was a sequel script making the rounds before the actual sequels came out. It had a guy who learned to change the Matrix by himself (shielding his girlfriend from an approaching car, i believe) who then gets recruited by the Agents to fight for them/ against Neo. The Oracle tells Neo that he is able to end the Matrix simulation, but that almost everyone livin in it would die as a result from the shock. The sequel ended on a cliffhanger with Neo contemplating what to do re. the Matrix.
Don't know if it was the real thing, but i remember liking it.

post #182 of 245

That actually sounds better than what we got.

post #183 of 245
Yeah, give me that one.
post #184 of 245

it sounds more like a concept for one of the animatrix shorts

post #185 of 245

Yeah. That's a cool angle.


But I maintain that what we got - in Reloaded at least - sacrifices that kind of appealing plotting in favor of some weird shit that is truly and insistently interesting.


And its solid, through and through, with one ridiculous and blaring exception. I don't know if they just had one of the Wachowski cousins handle the second unit when they were shooting it, but every scene with the Animatrix refugee kid is hilariously bad. I'm genuinely curious as to how the fuck that whole subplot got integrated and executed, because its so far removed from the moving and framing of everything else.  I don't get it. This kind of bleeds out into the goateed vessel of Smithery, who also kind of sucks.


But outside of that, mayn. Even if you find the GOTO ORGASM scene ridiculous, even if the whole burly brawl pushes the digital stuntmen too far: that movie is put the fuck together. I will defend its weird and insane choices until the death.


"You do not truly know somebody until you fight them." Andrea Bocelli ices some wetware with a silver bullet one shot she pulls from her handbag. Morpheus leans heavy on the spice orgy, Frank Herbert legacy and presides over Carl Cox Fuck Fest 2003.


If you are zen enough to set aside the searing impact of the first film, and just engage this thing as a bugshit insane blockbuster doing bugshit insane things in the shadow of the early n00things, its absolutely of note. There is a collapsing window of time in which this movie could be made. Its predecessor signals the end of Hollywood Blockbustery - shoutout Air Force One. The cultural landscape that its unleashed onto is uniquely fucked. 2003 was fucked up. Profoundly so. And before I get diverted to 5,000 words explaining just why that is so, I'm gonna leave it that.


REVOLUTIONS cued up for tonight. Lets see what this weird fucking thing is all about.

post #186 of 245
I can’t wait! Remember, the last defence of a high tech secret society is forklifts. Forklifts with machine guns!
post #187 of 245
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

 Forklifts with machine guns!

and lots of shouting!













I actually love Mifune just because of the actor just going for it

post #188 of 245
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

I can’t wait! Remember, the last defence of a high tech secret society is forklifts. Forklifts with machine guns!


I mean.... yeah. Yeah, once you get to the last line its all heavy industry.


But to address the point seriously: Zion is specifically shown as >not< high-tech. Its grimy as hell. The only element articulated as *advanced* is the Air Traffic Control.


Which is wholly out of place and incongruous with every single other thing we see in Zion. Unless you want to sign up to my own particular interpretation of things: Zion Control is the pure processing core of the Zion AI. Its the Intel Inside of this whole sentient config.

post #189 of 245

Zion never really came across as desperate and grimy a final human city the way I imagined when Marcus Chong first described it so passionately in the first movie.


In Reloaded, the bright white air traffic control program definitely threw me off of what I imagined... but then so did the immense scale of the Zion civilization.  It just never came across quite as desperate as I thought it would be.  Very steampunky, but not particularly grimy... since almost everyone that lives in Zion came across looking like beautiful models wearing the most fashionable rags.  I must've imagined something like Kyle Reese's flashback of life in the future.


That said, it shouldn't have been THAT surprising, considering the amount of tech that the Nebuchadnezzar had in it (a gigantic hovercraft!!!)... along with the fact that Neo's talk with Hamann specifically addresses the amount of machinery/tech it takes for humanity to survive in Zion. 

Edited by mcnooj82 - 10/7/17 at 2:53pm
post #190 of 245
I’m with Nooj. They have a lot of modern conveniences grimed up by a Spartan-style meritocracy. And they live beside a giant geothermal energy source made by...?
post #191 of 245
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

I’m with Nooj. They have a lot of modern conveniences grimed up by a Spartan-style meritocracy. And they live beside a giant geothermal energy source made by...?

THE FIRST ONE's building super

post #192 of 245
The traffic control room is so spotless that I always just figured it was a virtual reality instance, like the training rooms or the historical library from Animatrix. In the real Zion, the people are dressed in rags.
post #193 of 245

oh, I already knew that the traffic control room was a program (like the Construct) from the first time I saw it...


but it was still contrary to the image of Zion I had built up based on the first movie's description of it



I'd say the rave scene was probably the closest to what I sorta imagined Zion to look like... but then that was the rave scene...

post #194 of 245

Revolutions is .... kind of great?!


One thing that kind of disappointed me - unexpectedly - is how tied up they manage to get everything. There's a density to whats happening, but it all makes sense, it all follows logically, and it kind of dismantles my whole 'ITS ALL IN NEOS MIND' angle. Hugo Weaving's last scene is so good, dude sells it.


I also really appreciated how these are low-key the most diverse blockbuster movies ever made, but its so matter-of-fact about it, never draws attention to it. Good stuff.

Edited by Zhukov - 10/9/17 at 11:30am
post #195 of 245
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

The traffic control room is so spotless that I always just figured it was a virtual reality instance, like the training rooms or the historical library from Animatrix. In the real Zion, the people are dressed in rags.


Yup. At one point when the Nebuchadnezzar's docking at Zion, they cut from the VR control-room to the "real" world (where you see the controllers hooked up to their chairs), and then back to the VR control-room again.


Also, will second the love for The Matrix Revolutions -- that film simply gets better and better every time I watch it.

post #196 of 245
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

Also worth pointing out that the end scene chatter inclues the phrase 'TRANS OP' and the matrix ascii zooms in on 'M F' right before the associated communication device (a payphone, lol) explodes.

There's a pretty great twitter thread about all the trans symbolism and subtext running through the first Matrix film here. I don't have the link handy for where they pick up for the rest of the film, but I'm pretty sure they mention this moment at the end.

post #197 of 245

 I never understood the hate for the matrix sequels. They seemed pretty good to me. 

post #198 of 245

My main issue with Reloaded is that it doesn't even remotely come close to fulfilling the promise of that final scene in the first film.  And that it clumsily retcons Neo away from the place he was at the end of the first film so they could essentially re-do his hero's journey.  I don't hate it, but I find it incredibly disappointing.

post #199 of 245
but at this point, doesn't it seem like the movie was actively trying to defying those expectations from the first film?

the results were mixed, but the intention is surely there

moviebob's interpretation of the sequels as a response to the first film kinda covers this
post #200 of 245

Even if that was the intent, "Hmm, upgrades" is a damn lazy way to go about it.

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