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Time for a new Matrix discussion - Page 5

post #201 of 245
hahaha that upgrades line was such a throwaway

but it's not as if he has any trouble with those agents

the real kicker is how well Morpheus does against one later in the movie

I remember so much arguments trying to 'explain' that

"IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE ON A MOVING VEHICLE!!"
post #202 of 245
Nobody wanted to see a movie where all Neo did was jump inside of his enemies and blow them up. At least I doubt anybody would. That's the main reason for the "upgrades" line..
post #203 of 245

I'm sure Richard knows that.

 

He's just saying it was a lazy way to work around it.

 

I don't disagree.

 

Anyway, the Matrix sequels were made by people who were clearly more interested in questioning almost everything about the first movie... even to the detriment for some audiences.

 

AWESOME.

post #204 of 245
Oh I wasn't directing that at Richard or trying to "set him straight" or any such thing. I'm sorry if it came off that way. It was just me throwing out there what I thought the reasoning for it was..
post #205 of 245

AWESOME

post #206 of 245
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

I'm sure Richard knows that.

 

He's just saying it was a lazy way to work around it.

 

 

Eh, you say "lazy", I say "if not elegant, then at least concise and not bogging down the movie in even more exposition that is purely tied to plot, rather than thematics".

post #207 of 245

But the movie was so full of exposition!  Why not some more???

 

Definitely not elegant, as you said.  And I suggested that it was kinda needless?  Especially when Morpheus goes up against an upgraded one much better than he did against Smith in the first movie.

 

To go along with what fraid said, I figure the "Hmm, upgrades..." line would work better if Neo tried to jump into one of the agents like he did with Smith and is unable to do so?

post #208 of 245

The Matrix is constantly upgrading itself. It establishes an element that would later be a significant plot point, with the programs trying to escape destruction. 

 

Its just a shortcut to get back to a place where Neo can fight Agents without obliterating them entirely. If you want to workshop it: make the suits visually distinctive from the original Agents (and Smith). When Neo faces them, he says something like "I see you have upgraded .... your wardrobe."

Aayyyy

post #209 of 245
They should have made all of the agents afraid of Neo, running away like cowards because of what happened in the first movie.

Then... Smith shows up.
post #210 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

But the movie was so full of exposition!  Why not some more???

 

 

Would you say this about a Transformers movie and explosions?  There is such thing as "too much of a good thing", much less "too much of a necessary evil we're supposed to speed through as quickly as possible".

 

 

Definitely not elegant, as you said.  And I suggested that it was kinda needless?  Especially when Morpheus goes up against an upgraded one much better than he did against Smith in the first movie.

 

To go along with what fraid said, I figure the "Hmm, upgrades..." line would work better if Neo tried to jump into one of the agents like he did with Smith and is unable to do so?

 

My handwave for Morpheus faring better is that having the prophecy and Neo's nature confirmed has further cemented his faith in his cause and self.  "Do you think my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles?  In this place?" 

 

Really, it's just the inflationary principle of comic book villainy at work.  The first time the X-Men encounter a sentinel, or the Ninja Turtles fight a Foot Soldier, it takes all of them working together to bring one down.  Twenty episodes down the line, they can be taken down by the dozen without breaking a sweat.  Same reason the Terminator sequels can't just keep having a single T-800 chasing Sarah Connor around.  If a bad guy is defeated outright once, the audience has a hard time accepting them as a viable threat ever again, even if the "rules" of the world say they are still dangerous.

 

(This principle is also why The Force Awakens cocks up its ending so badly).

post #211 of 245

Neo has been fighting Agents and running missions in the Matrix during the entire gap between the two films. They reference the increasing number of people they have woken up during this, but we have to assume its not without danger. People have died; Neo might be Superman when he's plugged in, but there are still rules that govern the place. He still has log out from a phone, he can't bring people back from the dead (until the end of Reloaded), he can't go around jumping into Agents all willy nilly because that was obviously a bit rash. The Matrix evolves its programming to address the increasing threat from Zion. 

I'm sure there's a better way to get all that up on screen more explicitly, but it is there, running in the background.  I think what frustrates people about these movies is all the awesome shit we have to infer, or assume, or pick up on. Just show it to us!  I think its a combination of the Wachowskis being deliberately cagey on that score, and of the scripts probably needing a couple more passes to iron out what needs to be shown and what needs to be background. I always thought it was weird they decided to these back-to-back. Revolutions would have been spectacular if they had six more months to really nail down the set pieces.

post #212 of 245

Also watched the Animatrix over the weekend. Man, how is that so good.

 

I had forgotten entirely about the story set in feudal Japan. Which is indefensible, because that's among the dopest pieces of animation ever laid down. Hot damn that stuff is fire.

post #213 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

Would you say this about a Transformers movie and explosions?  There is such thing as "too much of a good thing", much less "too much of a necessary evil we're supposed to speed through as quickly as possible".

 

 

I would!  Because there's already too many explosions to begin with, so what's one more?

 

Reloaded was generally criticized for featuring too much ponderous exposition as it is. 

 

Of course, I agree with the "too much of a good thing" mantra... but in the case of Transformers and Reloaded, both are well beyond that point.  So again I say... "What's one more?"

 

And of course, I'm just arguing to argue.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

My handwave for Morpheus faring better is that having the prophecy and Neo's nature confirmed has further cemented his faith in his cause and self.  "Do you think my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles?  In this place?" 

 

oh, that was definitely one of the handwave explanations during those debates as well!  I'm well aware of them!  They were fun discussions!

 

 at that point, I'd even suggest that Morpheus' abilities were being driven by the unbearably inflated sense of self that was driving Locke insane ahahahahah...

 

We both agree that the sequels are nowhere near as elegant in how the first film handled this stuff.  

post #214 of 245
I know that that's what I want from Transformers is more quiet scenes of people having meaningful conversations that give great insight into the human condition and not explosions..
post #215 of 245

I would like to see that...

post #216 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

 

I would!  Because there's already too many explosions to begin with, so what's one more?

 

Reloaded was generally criticized for featuring too much ponderous exposition as it is. 

 

Of course, I agree with the "too much of a good thing" mantra... but in the case of Transformers and Reloaded, both are well beyond that point.  So again I say... "What's one more?"

 

And of course, I'm just arguing to argue.

 

 

Of course, I forgot that you're a monster.

 

 

 

 at that point, I'd even suggest that Morpheus' abilities were being driven by the unbearably inflated sense of self that was driving Locke insane ahahahahah...

 

 

It's textually motivated AF!

 

I actually find Locke perversely sympathetic, as sort of a contrarian response to how much the movie stacks the deck against him.

post #217 of 245
I sympathize with him too! Especially when he's up against that AWFUL ZION COUNCIL!!!

everyone is SO SMUG!!!

most of that character's lines are him muttering "goddammit morpheus..." to himself
post #218 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 

Watched Reloaded/Revolutions again just for the hell of it after not having seen them in a long time.  I have to admit I really enjoyed them more than I have before.  Dramatically they don't work at all, but there's an elegant action aesthetic and goofiness that makes up for it.  Almost like a Saturday morning cartoon for grownups.  Also, I don't think there's ever been a blockbuster as unapologetically cerebral and philosophically dense, and that's actually impressive to witness on this kind of scale.  And the Architect scene continues to be my favorite thing in any of the movies, even the first one.  It's so bold to turn a movie on its head that willingly and risk losing people like that.  And it posseses a level of intrigue that completely sucks you in, alot of it because of the ice cold and arrogant delivery of the actor.

 

I'm still weirdly curious to see another Matrix movie, just to see what they'd come up with.

 

You think Revolutions (which I loathe other than Neo v. Smith) is as good as Reloaded (which I like, though not nearly as much as the Matrix)?

post #219 of 245

Revolutions is pretty good, man!

 

I remember thinking that Bain was pretty laughable first time I saw it. But that guy does an amazing Agent Smith impersonation! Obviously that's why he got the role. But its really fucking good! To the point that when he's goading Neo during their fight, and Neo is like "who are you?" Who do you think it is, you big dummy!

post #220 of 245

I remember liking Bane and being impressed with his Weaving impression.  It was Mifune that completely blew that movie up for me.

post #221 of 245

Such a beautiful man.

 

The only special effect you need, really.

post #222 of 245

That look you give her when its time to power load and chill.

post #223 of 245

The actor playing Bane's Weaving impression is really fun because it plays more sinister and dangerous coming from him than it does from Weaving himself.  I think it's partially the more nasally voice

post #224 of 245

Its because he's real! Agent Smith is just a prick kid with too many hax. Bane will burn your fucking eyeballs out of your skull!

post #225 of 245

Bane is Smith just being miserable being in an actual human body

he hates it so much!

 

such disdain...

 

this bane...

post #226 of 245

The disdain in Bane is made plain by his name.

post #227 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 

 

You think Revolutions (which I loathe other than Neo v. Smith) is as good as Reloaded (which I like, though not nearly as much as the Matrix)?

 

Do I think powdered sugared shit is as good as refined sugared shit?  Does it matter?

post #228 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

The disdain in Bane is made plain by his name in Spain.

Fixed.

Much love toward Bane. The way he spits that blood up in detest!

Also, it is hilarious how Neo doesn’t even see Smith in there after hearing him say Mr. Anderson three fucking times in one sentence.
post #229 of 245

You're Agent Smith? From the Matrix??

post #230 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Fixed.

Much love toward Bane. The way he spits that blood up in detest!

Also, it is hilarious how Neo doesn’t even see Smith in there after hearing him say Mr. Anderson three fucking times in one sentence.
God, no shit....that whole scene makes Neo look sooooo thick. People were honestly laughing at that part when I saw it at the theater..
post #231 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

People were honestly laughing at that part when I saw it at the theater..

 

Not as hard as during Trinity's death scene.

post #232 of 245
That said, I like Bane’s line: “Look through those dull cow eyes and see your enemy!”
post #233 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

Not as hard as during Trinity's death scene.

The 30 minute long death scene?
post #234 of 245
I think it was "Look through the soft gelatin of these dull cow eyes and see your enemy!"

Either way....that's a pretty meaty villain line!
post #235 of 245
I need an animatrix short that explains that Bane was already some asshole who didn't like Neo and called him Mr Anderson all the time

only then will I be fulfilled
post #236 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Also, it is hilarious how Neo doesn’t even see Smith in there after hearing him say Mr. Anderson three fucking times in one sentence.

 

To be fair, no one in the movie thought that was possible at that point.  It's also possible Bane was just mimicking the phrase he'd probably heard among the gossip of Zion.

post #237 of 245
If I'd seen some of the life changing things that Neo had seen up to that point, I'd be pretty wide open to just about any and all possibilities..
post #238 of 245
there is no spoon my ass!!!
post #239 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

If I'd seen some of the life changing things that Neo had seen up to that point, I'd be pretty wide open to just about any and all possibilities..

 

Maybe, but I'm apt to believe he's just wondering why Bane is acting weird rather than "It's agent Smith in the flesh, and he looks like Bane!"

post #240 of 245

"Look through the soft gelatin of these dull cow eyes and see your enemy" is my new favorite phrase.  

post #241 of 245

I am imagining a comedy sketch wherein Bane grows increasingly frustrated trying to get Neo to recognize who he is without saying it outright. And Neo just keeps responding, 'what?'.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 

"Look through the soft gelatin of these dull cow eyes and see your enemy" is my new favorite phrase.  

 

Put it on a business card.

post #242 of 245
Such a comedy sketch wouldn't feel too far removed from the actual scene..
post #243 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

"Look through the soft gelatin of these dull cow eyes and see your enemy" is my new favorite phrase.  

That's a fun line!
post #244 of 245
It’s the type of line that gives you the giggles after you write it.
post #245 of 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post


the real kicker is how well Morpheus does against one later in the movie
 

 

That's because he was starting to believe. 

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