GHOST RIDER: SPIRIT OF VENGEANCE Post-Production

Was it better or worse than the God Forsaken original?

ETA Oops. Reread. Nevermind. 

Definitely better than the first film or GAMER.

Nice to see Christopher Lambert do his patented "Heh Heh Heh" again and Anthony Stewart Head had a small cameo in the beginning.

felix, I am seeing the new Ghost Rider...Today!  I hope it is as...Awesome, as it the trailers make it look!  It is good to hear that you enjoy it.

I found this to be hugely disappointing.  I was expecting something more visually interesting and twisted coming from Neveldine/Taylor.  I don't get the Gamer hate, I've seen it twice and think it's pretty fantastic. Cage seems to be doing exactly what he thinks we want, like a cover band of himself.  At least he had a little energy going on unlike in the execrable Drive Angry.  Hinds was great, Lambert was nice to see and Elba looked cool at least.  The main problem (outside of the character, more on that in a bit), was the horrible actor playing Blackout, especially before his reanimation.  The least intimidating villain I've seen in awhile and movies like this live or die based on their villains.  Hinds picked up some of the slack, but the rider didn't fight him but once and it was one sided and not dramatic in the least.

Ghost Rider just doesn't translate to the screen.  The awful penance stare stuff is one thing, but it's the same problem as The Hulk.  Every time the actor transforms into a CGI construct, we as an audience totally disconnect from him.  We're not worried about him and his ill defined powers render him indestructible, so who cares what happens?  They take his powers, which could be interesting, but then give them back 3 minutes later. 

Also, how weak was the action in this?  That climactic car chase scene was a joke and there is NOTHING in here that wasn't in the trailers.

http://shloggshorrorblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/ghost-rider-spirit-of-vengeance.html

I caught this Thursday night at a free sneak preview and still wanted my money back when it was over. I had flashbacks to Jonah Hex as well, which is never a good sign (though, I don't think this was as unwatchably horrible as that movie). Aside from a few Ridiculous Cage moments, it was dull (something I didn't expect from these guys), the 3D was nonexistent and by the time it was over I had a headache from just how loud and incoherent the whole thing was. Ghost Rider was better realized in this than the first film, but his powers/abilities remain ill defined...I'm not a GR aficionado, so what was with him floating in mid-air?

GR just doesn't work as a cinematic lead character, let alone an action anti-hero; the whole thing just feels forced. Years ago I remember hearing about one of the original screenplay drafts for the first movie that dealt with a detective investigating sightings of and murders by Ghost Rider, which could work. Maybe moving the character from the action genre to a more horror-centric thriller/mystery tone would better suit the character. Maybe give it a Wolfman (original) spin?

The sad thing is, most of the audience I was with seemed to really enjoy the movie.

Caught this last night in a sparsely-populated 2D screening. There were two walkouts, oddly right at the climax. The movie was five minutes from being over, and this young couple seated a few rows down from me just got up and left.

Going in with lowered expectations, I found it to be adequate. The movie's all over the place tonally. Cage isn't sure how he wants to play Johnny Blaze, so in some scenes he's calling back his "Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call New Orleans" performance, others he's channeling his bland adventure hero character from the "National Treasure" movies. Idris Elba, on the other hand, seems to have walked in from another, more exciting movie.

It's absolutely terrible, probably on par with JONAH HEX for how utterly misguided every beat feels.  If you thought Neveldine/Taylor sounded like the right guys to do this, what they deliver here is surprisingly tame at times, sleepwalking-on-rollerblades action that shows its budget ninety-five percent of the time.

As someone who kinda loved it, I'm a little weirded out my some of the negative complaints. It sounds like a lot of people are looking for a super hero movie. This is a gothic, down-and-dirty monster movie, except your allegiance is towards the one monster who seems more slightly respectable. Obviously the story is a little skimpy, and the budget shows. But the Rider looks great, the violence is appropriately messy and how could you hate on a movie with the stunning Violante Placido?

Consider me on the higher end of the film's defenders.

I'm not "looking down on it" in any sense.  I was ready to like it for what it was, an off-kilter genre pic with an unconventional anti-hero at its center.  Problem is, for me, it failed to even live up to that promise - the action was terribly staged, edited and acted out, for one, and Neveldine/Taylor's visual gimmicks felt tired out instead of truly fired up.  As you may have also read, people were also willing to embrace Cage, but even his performance seemed weak and forced -- I can count the moments in the film that the crew probably thought would elicit huge applause from the audience, but in my theater there were crickets (the pissing fire, the occasional winks to the forth wall, etc).  Some moments did work, but otherwise this is easily one of the worst films of the year for me.

Violante Placido is lovely, but I hated, hated, hated her character and the annoying kid in the film.  In general, I kind of hated the story here -- NOT because it didn't adhere to superhero tradition, but because it all felt tired and paint-by-numbers.  The sometimes-effective insanity of the filmmakers clashed with the overwhelming dullness of what was flashing by on the screen.  They could have found a thousand different ways, all infinitely more interesting, to portray the Ghost Rider and capitalize on what kind of character he is instead of what they came up with here.

Seriously, back to that action - the third act's road chase is easily some of the worst shit I've seen in 2012, and crazy camera movements can't hide that.

Drew calls it "The Worst Marvel Movie ever".

I'm sure it will have its fans. Like manure, someone will find it useful irrespective of the unholy stench of ass. 

My expectations were pretty low, but I liked it.

I guess part of that is because I had low expectations, but this is definitely better than the first movie. The people who are saying it's worse than the first one are nuts. Either they haven't seen part one since it came out and forgot most of it, or they're doing that internet hyperbole thing. The locations are pretty dank and desolate, but Neveldine and Taylor have a lot more style than bland tv director Mark Steven Johnson. Plus, Ghost Rider is much more successful as a special effect in this one. And I thought Cage definitely put in a good effort as Blaze *and* Ghost Rider. Especially Ghost Rider. Nic does all of these weird, jerky movements and rocker poses when he transforms. This isn't a Bangkok Dangerous/Season of the Witch phone-in. Quirky/weird Cage comes out often.

The biggest problem is that the story is extremely simple and the characters in the film just keep talking about it. They should have filled that time with more weird Ghost Rider shit and more Ciaran Hinds stroke-voice line readings. Also, the main character acknowledges that the story doesn't make much sense ("Now you're probably asking, why does the devil need a human form? I DUNNO." -actual Johnny Blaze voiceover dialogue)

Although I did not previously know that Neveldine/Taylor wrote Hex, the line between the two flicks goes straighter then ever and the overall item that this brings up is that Neveldine/Taylor can not do a PG-13 flick.  They are R-rated only as their efforts in the younger rating shows interesting visuals but a really lacking plot, although it did look interesting. 

I second the mentions of the good casting as adding a Highlander and a former Sunnydale educator equaled happy fans.

Hex was supposed to be an R movie. I've read the script. When N&T left, whoever was in charge threw most of their script out and watered down/rewrote the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix 

Drew calls it "The Worst Marvel Movie ever".

 

1) Drew genuinely hates Neveldine/Taylor.

2) Has he seen Wolverine? Come on, now.

My feelings of Ghost Rider 2 are that the first film, like most comic book pictures, is trying to be a pop song. But the new Ghost Rider is a pure METAL ALBUM. In all it's grandiose silliness and stupidity, weird digressions, straight-faced ridiculousness, and absurd, arcane religious concepts.

I don't feel like I'm insulting the source material when I say that this movie accurately honors the character.

I think it's important to consider not only what the film is trying to be, but how successfully it is at that taken in cinematic terms.  Like most, I went in absolutely knowing the trademarks of the filmmakers and knew what the film was aiming for, but I didn't feel like those weird ideas ultimately gelled in any satisfying way.  I'm not going to like something simply because it presents itself as a weird, off-kilter pic.  It's cute and unexpected, but that doesn't necessarily make it a movie.

It's a mess of a movie, filled with a few legitimately crazy moments and then a whole bunch of uninspired ones.  Nothing is genuinely off-kilter about it - the story is safe instead of the daring ridiculous spectacle it thinks it is, the crazier moments come off as desperate instead of organic to the filmmaker's process, etc.

Neveldine/Taylor could have done something right with this character, but the final product doesn't.  It tries to be, and winks at the audience thinking it's doing some cool shit, but it really doesn't.  When Cage says "Yeah, that happened", you know the movie has a high opinion of its supposed eccentricities.  That's the kind of stuff I legitimately cannot tolerate, no matter what the filmmaker is trying to do creatively.

Yeah, i didn't really think it was that bad.

Funny story in that article though.

I can't take Drew seriously if he's pulling the WORST EVURRRRR card. I'll take VENGEANCE over a bunch of Marvel movies.

Marvel has made handful of horrible movies, a bunch of mediocre ones and a handful of good ones.

Just curious, but would you take ELEKTRA over this?

lol edit:

noooooo

Drew apparently considered the bottom of the barrel, Wolverine included, in his estimation:

If you interrogated him, perhaps he would say that those films are just as cringe-inducing, but ultimately the directors behind them aren't as genuinely cancerous as Neveldine/Taylor.  Whereas they are disposable, this one is actively infuriating for every shot where you know Neveldine and Taylor thought they were being mavericks for rollerskating through a traditional car chase.  It's bad cinema, but bad cinema with a high opinion of its artistic process.  I think that's a fairly legitimate complaint.

Wow you really have issues with Neveldine and Taylor. I guess I don't know them like you do, but they've never come off as self-important, chest pounding mavericks to me. They come off more as goofballs who are really into cameras.

Worst Ever...?  I...Say Thee Nay! Ghost Rider Spirit Of Vengeance is a...Hell of a ride!  GR: SOV is the...Best Neveldine/Taylor film...yet!  CAGEy Nic is...BLAZEingly...Awesome as Johnny!  Violante Placido is...Lovely, and quite the...Well Rounded actress!  I think this turn as GR is Cage's best role since...Con Air!  He really sells the...Craziness of Johnny Blaze!  This film is filled with...Gloriously...Spirited Vengeance, that should be seen...ASAP!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadew1 

Wow you really have issues with Neveldine and Taylor. I guess I don't know them like you do, but they've never come off as self-important, chest pounding mavericks to me. They come off more as goofballs who are really into cameras.

I don't know them personally and have no personal insight into how they view their process, but that's how their style came off to me in this film.  It rubbed me the wrong way consistently, not helped in the slightest by its several moments of winking after something supposedly awesome happened.  No, it doesn't matter that the camera is rolling along with you, that sequence was still shit.  It just seems to me that they think so highly of their patented cinematography that it becomes somewhat irksome to have to view their movies.  There's nothing worse than someone who is seemingly self-congratulatory about their filmmaking for "going against" traditional techniques, especially if they expect it to dress up filmmaking flaws.

It doesn't hurt my interpretation that, to me at least, they come off as kind of idiotic and a little smarmy in interviews/BTS footage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadew1 

lol edit:

 

noooooo

You know its funny, but i actually liked ELEKTRA. Jennifer Garner isn't one of my favourite actresses, but i think she did a good job in playing an Obsessive Compulsive version of Elektra. Terrance Stamp was fine as Stick as well.

I wish i'd seen the Director's Cut that had that Ben Affleck cameo though.

Jennifer Garner was never the problem, at least for me.  Even in some of the worst superhero pics out there, the central casting is still generally fine.

Well, except for Halle Berry and Catwoman.  Fuck that shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Drew apparently considered the bottom of the barrel, Wolverine included, in his estimation:

 

If you interrogated him, perhaps he would say that those films are just as cringe-inducing, but ultimately the directors behind them aren't as genuinely cancerous as Neveldine/Taylor.  Whereas they are disposable, this one is actively infuriating for every shot where you know Neveldine and Taylor thought they were being mavericks for rollerskating through a traditional car chase.  It's bad cinema, but bad cinema with a high opinion of its artistic process.  I think that's a fairly legitimate complaint.

Actually, I'm talking with Drew on Twitter right now, and he's going on PRECISELY about how Neveldine and Taylor are cinematic cancer.

Whatever. Drew fucking sucks, and his review reeks of humorless smarm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadew1 

Wow you really have issues with Neveldine and Taylor. I guess I don't know them like you do, but they've never come off as self-important, chest pounding mavericks to me. They come off more as goofballs who are really into cameras.

Sort of like how Cage is a goofball who's really into acting.

I had a blast with this awful, terrible film. Laughed all the way through it.

WORLDS better than the dull-as-fuck first film. I'll take crazy over paint-by-numbers any day of the week.

It looks like a fucking skate board video, painfully fucking cheap and nasty  

I'm so glad I don't live in the stuffy, boring fucking universe Drew apparently does when it comes to his commercial entertainment. And I say that with mad respect.

Surprise, it's a shitty movie! But it passes the time adequately. I can understand hoping for a better result from the people behind Crank, but considering the terrible buzz, the reviews, and hell, the original Ghost Rider movie, I can't imagine being disappointed. You all should know better.

The Rider looked cool enough and I liked Elba and Hinds going at it. Hinds even came close to matching the acting mania of Cage. I even have a bit of affection for the utter terribleness of some of the supporting cast. The secondary bad guy was particularly ill-prepared to be acting in a real movie.

There's not much positive to say about it, actually, but I have no bad feelings about the experience and considering I knew what to expect going in, I've got to say I got what I paid for. 

http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1444

Cage being offered Lord of the Rings and The Matrix sounds... dubious.

I buy it. As near as I can tell every single bankable Hollywood star was offered the Neo role in The Matrix at one point or another. WB would have at least made the Wachowskis talk to him. The Rings story sounds a lot more fishy though.

He would have been a pretty awesome Gollum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph P. Brenner 

http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1444

philblakeman says: Is there any character you'd like to revisit? Do you ever wonder what happened next to Stanley Goodspeed or Cameron Poe?
I would like to hook up with one of the great Japanese filmmakers, like the master that made Ringu, and I would like to take The Wicker Man to Japan, except this time he's a ghost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix 

Drew calls it "The Worst Marvel Movie ever".

 

"Visually repulsive, morally empty, and intellectually bankrupt, this is the film that people are thinking about when they moan about Comic-Con culture and fanboy cinema. This is devoid of invention or ideas, joyless filmmaking without any investment from the filmmakers. It actively scares me that these guys have fans, and that people are willing to defend their filmmaking, because what I see onscreen in their work is nothing less than the deadest of dead ends, the worst of modern action cinema taken to its logical conclusion.""

But did his kids like it?

Vern had fun with it.

Sort of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe T 

 

My feelings of Ghost Rider 2 are that the first film, like most comic book pictures, is trying to be a pop song. But the new Ghost Rider is a pure METAL ALBUM. In all it's grandiose silliness and stupidity, weird digressions, straight-faced ridiculousness, and absurd, arcane religious concepts.

 

I don't feel like I'm insulting the source material when I say that this movie accurately honors the character.

Pretty much sums up my feelings. There's plenty wrong with it - first and foremost Cage, who is phoning in his performance - yet it's so weird and gonzo that I enjoyed it despite myself. Neveldine/Taylor could be pretty decent filmmakers if they stopped throwing shit at the wall to see what works. For every cool shot or editing trick they try out there're like 3 that totally miss the mark.

Even if you're not a fan of the film, i'd say it gets a higher grade than the first simply for the fact that it dares to show some fucking personality.

It gets positive marks from me for completely and utterly tossing the original movie under the bus. Quick flashback to the origin, done. No Eva Mendes, nothing. And at the very least, this feels like a movie named Ghost Rider should feel like. It doesn't have a lot of atmosphere, but fuck at least it has some, unlike the MSJ's original which I'm pretty sure was shot and fixed up to look like a romantic comedy. Even the darkness looks sunny in that. Cage being a hyper version of Cage, it works for the most part (I like the cover band comment from above), but why is no one mentioning Idris Elba? It's like he recognizes the utter absurdity of the movie but is still giving it his best, like he's auditioning for some future action movie that I will see opening day. Denzel isn't getting any younger, neither is Elba I suppose, but we need more of both.

Also, I'm a sucker for anything having to do with angels and demons battling it out on earth. Liked the backstory bit Elba tells Cage in the cave.

Elba was alright, but it's definitely one of his least memorable performances so far and the accent threw me off.

The only actors that I found flat-out awful were Ciaran Hinds as Rourke/The Devil (sadly) and Johnny Whitworth (who never finds his place in the story, although the script is mostly to blame there).  Maybe I'm being a tad too harsh on Johnny, because even if he acted his ass off the character still would have been annoying as fuck with the cheap over-reliance on his POV shots during the action sequences.

This movie should have been called COCAINE: SPIRIT OF VENGEANCE. What an absolute mess. It had a few enjoyable moments of Cage nuttiness and Ghost Rider coolness, but not nearly enough. The 3D was atrocious. it's a real headscratcher that this even exists. I LOVE bad movies, but you guys giving this a pass are crazy.

2 things I took from this: Neveldine and Taylor are cokeheads and Nic Cage is suffering from a very serious mental illness.

Well fucking DUH!

I always knew he was "crazy", but now I feel that his craziness is debilitating. I am worried about the guy. This will not end well.

I ended up not being able to convince my friend to go see Chronicle instead of this.  So I paid for Chronicle and brought in some 3D glasses I took from a previous RealD movie I went to (I've had dim projection issues at this theater before and wasn't going to pay full 3D prices for GHOST RIDER 2!).   Good thing, since I ended up dozing off for most of the movie.  Just really boring.  I saw some stuff you could call crazy, but when it's Nic Cage doing it, it just feels standard behavior.  So that was about as dull.

Neveldine/Taylor sure do love their wide-angle lenses.