Breaking Bad - Season 5 - Page 22

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Originally Posted by Andy Bain 

It's kind of mental that the war for Jesse's 'soul' (for want of a better word) is being fought by basically two really bad guys.

 

So we have Mike, who has knowingly murdered, extorted and made money off human misery (meth addiction) and Walt who has knowingly murdered, manipulated and wants to make MORE money off human misery, as well as having the underlying craving for some kind of respect.

At the end of the day, Mike is "just" a brutal, pragmatic cynic. He's still human. He has people he cares about--Jesse, his granddaughter--beyond trying to control them. He only got back into the game to make enough money to get out again (well, I assume). Obviously his hands aren't clean, but he's not a cancer on everything he touches like Walt. It's pretty obvious that he's the better influence on Jesse.

I threw this together to show Walt's absolute stranglehold on poor Jesse :(

Mike's just as bad as Walt, but he's honest. He also has no want or use of the spotlight and has no ego to bruise, and believes in doing right by the people he employs. Likening Walt to a cancer is a pretty great way of describing what sets him apart from a criminal like Mike.

Obviously I can't take credit for the cancer thing...I mean, it's implicit to the show. :)

I really don't think Mike IS as bad as Walt, for precisely the reasons you just listed. Gus is worse than Mike, but still not as bad as Walt. The fact that they're professionals who try to avoid causing havoc puts them ahead of him. It might not make them wonderful people, but at least it minimizes the collateral. Walt actively enjoys causing chaos, and while he may not technically enjoy hurting innocent people, he's OK with it to the extent that he won't reign himself in to prevent it.
 

Let's not forget Walt made Jesse a millionaire. That has to figure in all this as well.

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Originally Posted by Jacob Singer 

Let's not forget Walt made Jesse a millionaire. That has to figure in all this as well.

True, and he saved his life in the pilot. Had Walt never approached Jesse, he would have been murdered by Krazy 8 (who was going to scape goat him as the snitch to his cousin Emilio). Not to mention Walt also repeatedly saves him throughout the series. Walt is an emotionally abusive, highly unlikeable prick, but some people lose perspective of the fact that Jesse is alive and a millionaire (and sober!) because of him.

On a rewatch, I really loved Mike's "So you didn't think to check the other barrels?" He's such a dad there, with Jesse, as always, the fuck up son.

Hoooooleeey shit.

So much for all the talk about Todd being a mole or whatever. Wow. That was some intense television. 

This show just punched me in the gut. Fuckin' Todd.

Shit just got real.

Damn, Landry is ice cold. Walt may have a new protege . Watch out, Jesse! 

Wow, a crafty Heat homage, all in one episode.  Todd = Waingro.  

The whole episode you know it's coming, but they still manage to surprise you.

Jesus, that wave...

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Originally Posted by Deanburger 

The whole episode you know it's coming, but they still manage to surprise you.

 

Jesus, that wave...

Maybe I got to wound up in the heist, which was brilliant, but I completely forgot about the kid by that point.

Nice bit of forshadowing by Skyler on her comment about the dirt on Walt's pants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanburger 

The whole episode you know it's coming, but they still manage to surprise you.

 

Jesus, that wave...

I thought it was gonna fade to black at the wave... holy shit. Fuckin' Todd is right... I mean you know it's called "Dead Freight" for a reason - at first I thought Walt was gonna say fuck it and just slaughter the engineers and the truck dude. Jesus...


Well. Mike is out. I stand by my original prediction. It was touched on again in this episode, but both Walt and Lydia want those 9 (well, 7 are left) guys dead.

Ugh. It's on again :(

Does anyone think Jesse is going to continue his current line of work after this? Not a chance in hell if you ask me. Todd is Walt's new protege. Walt would have killed that kid, too. Probably with poison, after some brief deliberation, the sick bastard.

I really really really hope Mike lives. But you know Lydia is going to come back and bite him in the ass.

Ricin?

I'd forgotten about the kid as well, then we get that ending. DAMN. It's the best episode of the first half of the season so far. If only for the final 10 minutes being some of the most intense television ever.

I also love how Todd seems so timid and calm with his "Yes, sir" responses to Walter and Jesse. It really sets up the curve ball, because you don't think he's going to do anything, or he's probably not capable of anything, then he does that.

Yeah, next episode really looks like shit's going even worse, and things aren't looking too good for some people.

GodDAMMIT, Landry!  

Fuck, yeah, I completely forgot about the kid.

Just an intense and FUN show, and then sucker punch.  Jesus Christ.  Walt's done some dirty shit, but killing a kid?  He hasn't quite crossed that line yet.

Great ep tonight.   It seems like the theme of this season is hammering home that the "innocence" of season 1 is over for good.   Last week it was the selling off of the Aztek (which should if there's any justice sit along Walter White's hat in the Smithsonian) and this week it was a heist that could have easily fit into season one with an ending that could have only happened in season 5.   I feel like this show is going to be heart breaking to watch from beginning to end when this is all over with.

I'll make a guess that the flash forward in the premier is just the halfway mark and the end of this year's finale will be Walt coming out on top and having his drug empire.   The final 8 will be Hank figuring it out and taking Walt down.

To hell with this "Jesse will be redeemed" crap - he's just as bad as Walt and Mike and deserves whatever comes to him.  He just doesn't know it.  He wants to be all "I love kids" when he sees the meth kid, his ex-girlfriends kid and brother, and now the bike kid, but at the end of the day he LOVES what he does.  He makes poison.  He helps plan ways to make poison.  He gets excited when the pull of giant schemes to manufacture poison.  He is a murderer.  "Hell yeah bitches!" 

This isn't to say he isn't a great character - they are all great characters - toxic, evil, brilliant characters. 
 

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Originally Posted by Scruff 

To hell with this "Jesse will be redeemed" crap - he's just as bad as Walt and Mike and deserves whatever comes to him.  He just doesn't know it.  He wants to be all "I love kids" when he sees the meth kid, his ex-girlfriends kid and brother, and now the bike kid, but at the end of the day he LOVES what he does.  He makes poison.  He helps plan ways to make poison.  He gets excited when the pull of giant schemes to manufacture poison.  He is a murderer.  "Hell yeah bitches!" 

 

This isn't to say he isn't a great character - they are all great characters - toxic, evil, brilliant characters. 
 

Nah, Jesse helps create a product that can be deadly if used improperly. It is intended to be used by grown adults who make up their own minds wether or not to fuck their own lives up.  Yes, it's poison in a manner, but so is alcohol.  Anyone who OD's on meth did not do so at gunpoint, they chose to take that risk and face the consequences of their actions.  In this manner, Jesse is no worse than the average employee of Budweiser or Absolut. 

If you'd argue from the standpoint that Jesse is just as bad for his murder of Gale, then you'd have a case IMHO. THough I would argue that he felt he had no choice in that matter, seeing as his father figure/friend would be shot if he didn't go through with it.

Jesse is redeemable at this point IMHO. He is not cold blooded, he's not power hungry and willing to kill anyone that stands in his path to absolute dominance. That's Walt. Jesse's main crime here, aside from killing Gale, is that of being easily mislead and manipulated by father figures that make him feel a part of something special. I like Jesse, he's come a long way from being a wigga thug wannabe that we met in season 1. 

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Originally Posted by Anjin 

 

Nah, Jesse helps create a product that can be deadly if used improperly. It is intended to be used by grown adults who make up their own minds wether or not to fuck their own lives up.  Yes, it's poison in a manner, but so is alcohol.  Anyone who OD's on meth did not do so at gunpoint, they chose to take that risk and face the consequences of their actions.  In this manner, Jesse is no worse than the average employee of Budweiser or Absolut. 

 

If you'd argue from the standpoint that Jesse is just as bad for his murder of Gale, then you'd have a case IMHO. THough I would argue that he felt he had no choice in that matter, seeing as his father figure/friend would be shot if he didn't go through with it.

 

Jesse is redeemable at this point IMHO. He is not cold blooded, he's not power hungry and willing to kill anyone that stands in his path to absolute dominance. That's Walt. Jesse's main crime here, aside from killing Gale, is that of being easily mislead and manipulated by father figures that make him feel a part of something special. I like Jesse, he's come a long way from being a wigga thug wannabe that we met in season 1. 

See, to me it's not just the crimes he commits, but the absolute JOY he takes in commiting them.  Tonight when Todd said "you guys thought of everything" Jesse had this look of absolute pride.  He loves what he does.  Every season he loves it.  He loved it when he had Saul get his house back from his parents.  He took pride in schooling the cartel on how to cook meth for Gus.  He's killed people and dissolved dead bodies.  Where is everyone getting this idea that this guy should be redeemed?  He deserves whatever comes his way.  Comparing meth to alcohol is fine, but it doesn't make Jesse any less guilty in manufacturing poison.  Jesse did have a choice in murdering Gale, he has had a choice in this entire situation.  He had a choice not to help Walter White from the beginning.  He's an adult, he is responsible for his own actions.  He may not be "cold blooded" but he likes what he does.  He does it well.  He is not some innocent kid.  You can't blame Walt for the decisions that Jesse makes.

I will probably get shouted down for this, but does anyone wish they hadn't included the scene with the kid at the beginning?  I mean, I know it's the MO of the show to suggest the consequences before we see them, and it's great.  But I would have liked to have been shocked by that moment.  They even could have left the tarantula in the jar punctuation without any prior explanation.

Anyone who saw the same first season episode of Jesse with his family should sympathize with him.  The kid has made bad choices, but he has a soul.  One could argue that Walt has always been bad, and Jesse is the one who broke that way.

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Originally Posted by Deanburger 

One could argue that Walt has always been bad

I've brought this up before, but that is a very boring reading of the show.  If the circumstances don't play a part in Walt being a truly changed man, then it takes out a great deal of the social commentary, as well as the ambition and accomplishment of the drawing of the character if he was just a sociopath all along.

Nah, I think you need to see the kid just dicking around on his dirtbike collecting spiders, to demonstrate that he's an actual person just living his pretty normal life, instead a cardboard cutout that pops up at an inopportune time.

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Originally Posted by J.L. 

Nah, I think you need to see the kid just dicking around on his dirtbike collecting spiders, to demonstrate that he's an actual person just living his pretty normal life, instead a cardboard cutout that pops up at an inopportune time.

You wouldn't have assumed he was just a normal person living his life when the spider fell out of his coat?  It gives us the same information, only we're not waiting for it to happen.

I hope I'm not the only person who laughed his ass off watching that.  

But back to my point, Jesse could walk away anytime he wanted.  He's not some helpless sap that Walt has under a mystic spell.  He is an adult, he is making his own decisions.

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

I've brought this up before, but that is a very boring reading of the show.  If the circumstances don't play a part in Walt being a truly changed man, then it takes out a great deal of the social commentary, as well as the ambition and accomplishment of the drawing of the character if he was just a sociopath all along.

I hope they don't leave the details of his past dangling. I'm really interested in the circumstances that led him to leave his company and end up with Skylar. It's something they've hinted at but never told the truth about. I think it's fundamental in understanding just how bad of a guy Walt really is.

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

You wouldn't have assumed he was just a normal person living his life when the spider fell out of his coat?  It gives us the same information, only we're not waiting for it to happen.

I kind of agree. A simple shot of the spider in the jar at the beginning would have accomplished the same purpose while allowing for a stronger sense of surprise (although I was still pretty shocked). Although maybe showing the kid biking around established him as more of an actual person than a plot device. Idk...

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

You wouldn't have assumed he was just a normal person living his life when the spider fell out of his coat?  It gives us the same information, only we're not waiting for it to happen.

Honestly I kind of feel that waiting for something to happen with the kid helped the tension, but more importantly I just think that without the cold open, there's a much greater chance that he comes off as a mere plot device from out of nowhere. Just my reading.

And he's making poor decisions, just like any human being is capable of doing.  He's like a battered wife/girlfriend - he doesn't seem to know any better.  He's accustomed to being a fuck-up in life, but that's changed recently. Now he's found something he's good at, where he's gaining so-called respect from somebody he holds in high regard.  His ideas are now being taken seriously and successfully acted upon. He feels that he is an integral part of a team, he's found his niche in this world. For the first time in his life he doesn't feel aimless, he doesn't see himself as the fuck-up that most people wrote him off as.  That's a very powerful motivator for somebody like Jesse.

Yet he's retained his soul through it all. Unlike Walt, he's retained his empathy and regard for life - particularly the lives of children. Jesse is a decent albeit confused young man who's finding his sense of self worth through doing bad things.  His moral compass is a bit flaky but not completely broken.  Walt's is completely smashed to smithereens.

It's not too late for Jesse to see Walt for what he really is and to act upon it, and to own up to his own mistakes.  I wouldn't be surprised if Jesse is the one that finally gets Walt put behind bars in order to save him from a violent end, even if Walt is actually aiming to go out in a bloody manner.

The shocking revelation wasn't that the kid got killed (did I just say that?), it was that Todd did it so effortlessly. As a viewer of this show, you should've known the kid was toast the second the heist was formulated. He was either going to get killed, or witness the event unbeknownst to Walt and end up being a problem (like the Madrigal info in Gus's picture in the premiere). 

The kid was just a plot device.  The tension of the heist was all the set up needed for something horrible to pay off.  This wasn't a writer writing himself out of a problem cheaply.  This was the consequence we were all waiting for.  It's just, because of the scene at the beginning, it cut some of the tension because we could guess what that consequence would be.

(And, like I said, I realize this is not new territory for the show.  The way they do it, with all the foreshadowing, is a legitimate approach that informs the moralistic viewpoint the show is presented in... and they do it impeccably well.  I just feel like the moment would have had more punch the other way.  It's still very memorable as it is.)

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

Coincidentally, I just watched this movie for the first time last week. And then this episode happens. I love how things are unexpectedly foreshadowed like that in life sometimes.

The cold open irritated me because it seemed so pointless. I love the way its purpose only became clear in the final minute (seconds?) of the episode. I'm not sure how to feel about the ending. Half of me was in awe of what a gut-punch of a surprise it was and how masterfully it followed up on the cold open.

The other half of me was just really bummed out by it. I'm another person who totally forgot about the kid after the cold open and only realized what was (probably) going to happen to him mere seconds before it actually happened, so I didn't find it predictable at all.

Shock deaths are more fun when a character has been a prick before they get theirs (i.e. Gus, the brothers). When the person is just innocent (Gale, tarantula kid), it's like my brain cheers the creativity of the kill, but my heart sinks for the victim. This show messes with me too much. So conflicted!

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Originally Posted by Anjin 
Yet he's retained his soul through it all. Unlike Walt, he's retained his empathy and regard for life - particularly the lives of children. Jesse is a decent albeit confused young man who's finding his sense of self worth through doing bad things.  His moral compass is a bit flaky but not completely broken.  Walt's is completely smashed to smithereens.

No - no no no no.  You can't have it both ways.  The battered wife syndrome is a cop out.  Jesse is fully aware of what he's doing, he's fully aware of the consequences of his actions.  He knows he's responsible for drug addiction and the crimes associated with it.  He has murdered.  He is not some innocent kid!!!  Where are you people getting the idea that he's some poor innocent kid that just needs a helping hand?  This isn't reading fucking rainbow.  He is just as villainous as Walt.  Maybe the twist ending you're all waiting for is that you don't see Jesse for the criminal piece of crap he is!!!  Again, the characters are great - the show is great - but I'm not going to pretend that Jesse is some poor sap who's being strung along and needs a helping hand.  He's as guilty as the rest of them.

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

I will probably get shouted down for this, but does anyone wish they hadn't included the scene with the kid at the beginning?  I mean, I know it's the MO of the show to suggest the consequences before we see them, and it's great.  But I would have liked to have been shocked by that moment.  They even could have left the tarantula in the jar punctuation without any prior explanation.

Speaking as someone who had forgotten about the kid and was shocked as hell, I'm glad it was there. I didn't get anything from it that led me to believe the kid would die. Maybe he's witness it, or Walt and Jesse would cross paths with him on their escape or maybe it was just foreshadowing the train.

I think without it, given that the kid was on a dirtbike and wearing a helmet, it would have been more confusing and taken away from the moment. Without the intro, edited as is, we'd see them wave at a skinny helmeted guy on a dirtbike and shoot. I think in that scenario my first thought would be, "Who was that? Skinny Pete? Lydia? John Connor? Did I miss some new dirt bike riding character?"

With the intro we immediately know its a kid and can grasp what's happening.

Maybe they could've dropped the intro and had a helmet-less kid or something to quickly identify him as a kid, but that messes with the pacing of the moment and could still be more confusing than shocking.

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Originally Posted by Scruff 

No - no no no no.  You can't have it both ways.  The battered wife syndrome is a cop out.  Jesse is fully aware of what he's doing, he's fully aware of the consequences of his actions.  He knows he's responsible for drug addiction and the crimes associated with it.  He has murdered.  He is not some innocent kid!!!  Where are you people getting the idea that he's some poor innocent kid that just needs a helping hand?  This isn't reading fucking rainbow.  He is just as villainous as Walt.  Maybe the twist ending you're all waiting for is that you don't see Jesse for the criminal piece of crap he is!!!  Again, the characters are great - the show is great - but I'm not going to pretend that Jesse is some poor sap who's being strung along and needs a helping hand.  He's as guilty as the rest of them.

People like you are why George Lucas made Greedo shoot first.

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Originally Posted by HypnoToad 

 

People like you are why George Lucas made Greedo shoot first.

How am I wrong with my opinion though? I'm not trying to mess with anyone, I just don't see how Jesse is some saint.

Jesse and Walt are equally bad.  Jesse is more sympathetic because he does what he does out of weakness and self-loathing, whereas Walt does what he does out of ego and pride.

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Originally Posted by Anjin 

 

Nah, Jesse helps create a product that can be deadly if used improperly. It is intended to be used by grown adults who make up their own minds wether or not to fuck their own lives up.  Yes, it's poison in a manner, but so is alcohol.  Anyone who OD's on meth did not do so at gunpoint, they chose to take that risk and face the consequences of their actions.  In this manner, Jesse is no worse than the average employee of Budweiser or Absolut. 

 

If you'd argue from the standpoint that Jesse is just as bad for his murder of Gale, then you'd have a case IMHO. THough I would argue that he felt he had no choice in that matter, seeing as his father figure/friend would be shot if he didn't go through with it.

 

Jesse is redeemable at this point IMHO. He is not cold blooded, he's not power hungry and willing to kill anyone that stands in his path to absolute dominance. That's Walt. Jesse's main crime here, aside from killing Gale, is that of being easily mislead and manipulated by father figures that make him feel a part of something special. I like Jesse, he's come a long way from being a wigga thug wannabe that we met in season 1. 

I pretty much agree with you 100%, but I think Jesse's monologue in "Problem Dog" is super important not only in regards to his character, but for everyone else on the show. NOBODY on this show has been judged by any figure in a position of moral authority, at least not the major ones. Well, except Hank, ironically. We can rationalize like Walt - and I can pretty much guarantee Walt is going to rationalize Todd's murder of the boy, as Skyler says, "shrugging off killing people as shit happens" - or accept responsibility for the consequences of our actions, intended or not. Actually, that goes back to the plane crash. Another case of unintended death and suffering caused by Walt, who attempts to rationalize it as "only the 50th worst air crash in history", while Jesse says "you either run from things, or you face them." That being said, I totally agree that Jesse is a much better person than Walt, in part because he simply has a better soul, but also because he doesn't try to rationalize the fucked up things he does and is willing to face the consequences for them. He simply hasn't been judged by any sort of morally sound authority figure. I see Jesse serving roughly 5-10 years in prison, owning up to his choices, and coming out a good person. Walt is either going down in flames or rotting in jail for the rest of his life, trying to figure out why nobody appreciates what an awesome badass he is.



So yes, Jesse is redeemable but only if he's arrested, judged, tried, prosecuted, and sentenced. Maybe a single act of christ-like sacrifice would be adequate, although I hope it doesn't come to that. He is practically begging to be held accountable for everything he's done (I apologize if I hijacked that last phrase, I definitely didn't come up with it)

On a side note, I also sort of agree about alcohol and meth. If Walt profiting off of a drug that harms people is immoral, then a company profiting off of a drug that harms people is immoral. The ONLY real difference is the degree of harm each one causes, and honestly I could see the case being made for alcohol being more harmful to society than meth, although that may have more to do with social and cultural factors, since meth is chemically more addictive and harmful even when used in moderation. In any case, people have philosophical debates about theses things, and a lot of countries have decriminalized harmful drugs and treat their respective addictions as medical problems. Which is not to say that meth is a good thing or that manufacturing it is a good thing. But it is an interesting debate.

If I were to rank the characters on this show in terms of pure fucking evilness, as of 5x05, it would be:

Tuco / Cousins / Hector > Walt > Gus > Mike > Jesse / Saul > Gale / Skyler > Hank > Marie / Junior > Holly / a cheese sandwich

Lydia is probably around Gus in terms of bad-ness, but who knows at this point. She did suggest killing 9 people as a "prophylactic measure". The fact that those 9 people are scumbags doesn't matter. Killing is killing.

and honestly, Walt is getting pretty close to pure unbridled sociopathy

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Originally Posted by Scruff 

How am I wrong with my opinion though? I'm not trying to mess with anyone, I just don't see how Jesse is some saint.

So you're either evil or a saint? What about shades of grey? Jesse has done some very bad things but he's never been villainous (except maybe selling meth to his rehab group). Yes, he murdered Gale, but Gale had to have known accepting Gus's offer meant the death of Walt. Jesse showing up at his door was not something he planned for, but I would hesitate to call Gale innocent.

Nobody is saying Jesse is some saint or completely innocent. He's far more sympathetic than other characters, however, due to his value for human life. The way he keeps trying to avoid killing others as much as possible and is terrified when someone is killed (or it's even suggested that someone be executed, like Lydia) makes him tremendously more sympathetic to the audience than Walt.

I like how there's this pattern developing of Mike and Walt bickering while Jesse looks like he's about to scream ("GUYS, PLEASE STOP FIGHTING!") like some horrified kid witnessing his arguing, on-the-way-to-divorce parents sniping at each other. Then he offers a solution that shuts both of them up. He's done this a few times now, first with the magnets, then with argument about how to split the money. It's becoming like a running gag, and a delightful one at that.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bain 

So, great cinematic episode.

BUT.

 

It concerns me how much they're reaching these days.  This season especially, it's like they're almost gleefully throwing logic and believability out of the window.  I know the "air-crash" was a stretch, and even Face-Off was a huge leap, but I could  believe them, but this.  For the first time ever in this show I'm struggling to cover it.  There are now just too many points that are starting to stretch my suspension of disbelief.

 

1) How can they reasonably expect Hank and Marie to have the kids for an indefinite period, especially given Skyler is back at work now?

2) The convenience of Lydia knowing EXACTLY where it should be done. "It's my job to know these things", we'll no, it's not actually.  You'd know when it arrived at checkpoints, that's it.

3) The fact they measured out exactly where the tanker would be BEFORE knowing which one it was going to be in, despite having made a point earlier that they wouldn't know what one it was in.

4) Firing up a compressor in the middle of the desert and the guys 1km up the track don't hear it? Sound travels, yo.

 

I have been able to roll with a lot in this series that was ultimately implausible. The train thing just WORKED for me. I liked seeing the kid in the opening, and actually forgot about him by the end.
As for a few of your bullet points, I'd explain them like this...
2) I don't think it's a big stretch for something to have happened in the past that caused her to be privy to that tiny stretch of  "Dark Territory" on the Cali-Texas route.
3) Seemed to me that they had enough hose to cover their asses if it had been one of the other 3 fuel cars. I don't know that much about trains, but it makes sense that they'd always keep the dangerous liquids in the rear away from the engine, and that they'd have a good guesstimate of how long many cars the train would be pulling.
4) It wasn't really played up in the sound mix very well, but I think the engine was still putting off a good bit of noise. Plus they were down a hill and pretty far away.

Basically, I bought it. The coincidence of the plane crash with Jane's father, and the perfectly ludicrous plan of Walt poisoning Brock worked for me too, and I consider them to be the biggest stretches of the entire series(along with Hank's continued ignorance).

This was actually one of my "all-timer" episodes, and easily the best of this season. Cool to hear it was a first time director(just for this series?). He really knocked it out of the park. Some really lovely shots too. One of the most cinematic episodes in a show full of them.