Breaking Bad - Season 5 - Page 20

Late to the party and the conversation, with not much more to add than another Holy Shit. For all the due applause given the script and performances in the bedroom scene, goddamn does Rian Johnson direct the loving hell out of it. For what amounts on the page to a 2-person conversation in a single room, and potentially very stagey, he turns it practically into a chase scene. Walt pursuing Skyler around the room like a slasher through the woods. The camerawork and blocking did as much to heighten the tension and emotions as anything the actors pulled off (which were themselves remarkable).

This Johnson kid, keep an eye on him. He's going places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude 

 

It's a good point.  Hank's no doubt been through a lot but I feel like he's changed less than we've gotten to know him better.

Partly, although his experiences with Tuco/Tortuga/the Cousins have all left marks on him that weren't there previously.  I just think his progression provides a more linear counterpoint to Walt's, especially with the opposite trajectories on the machismo scale to compare them by.  Jesse's arc, while consistently compelling, has also been so thoroughly convoluted that it's hard to track it against Walt's steady decline.  

Not an incredibly important distinction to draw in the scheme of things, perhaps, but you may have noticed that I kinda like to pick over thematic minutia on this show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trav McGee 

Late to the party and the conversation, with not much more to add than another Holy Shit. For all the due applause given the script and performances in the bedroom scene, goddamn does Rian Johnson direct the loving hell out of it. For what amounts on the page to a 2-person conversation in a single room, and potentially very stagey, he turns it practically into a chase scene. Walt pursuing Skyler around the room like a slasher through the woods. The camerawork and blocking did as much to heighten the tension and emotions as anything the actors pulled off (which were themselves remarkable).

 

This Johnson kid, keep an eye on him. He's going places.

I love that Gilligan seemingly empowers all his directors to go nuts. I really believed that in the wake of Breaking Bad, there'd be more visual shows coming out, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evi 

 

I love that Gilligan seemingly empowers all his directors to go nuts. I really believed that in the wake of Breaking Bad, there'd be more visual shows coming out, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm of two minds about it.  On one aspect, I love that there isn't.  It helps keep Breaking Bad unique.  I would be afraid that if more shows started filming cinematically, it could trivialize it.  Yet, as a movie fan that gravitates to the visual elements over anything else; I also agree with you.

Either way, this was my favorite of the season.  I fully expected this show to be barreling ahead by now, but the slow burn is still going strong and I love it.  Just the pace alone adds to the tension and it's bursting at the seams.  Part of me wants to shake my television and scream "fucking get there! I wanna know what's going to happen!" but that would be silly and not really what I want.

A small point, but I'd like to add that I don't get the issue with the dubstep bit.  I have seen it a few times here and definitely elsewhere.  I get that people don't like the music, but ANY other genre or song wouldn't have succeeded in illustrating how obnoxious Walt is and how awesome he feels has become.  I felt it was perfect.  It satirized the music and its fans, while also commenting on the douche that is "Heisenberg".  And I felt it was pushed over the top with the hilarious and over the top MTV "pimp my ride" editing.

If it weren't for the thread coming loose on the hat, it would have been my favorite scene/shot.  This episode was rife with symbolism - and I probably missed a good chunk of it still.

I personally don't like Skyler much because she reminds me of an ex-girlfriend, and during the first 2 seasons acted very similar also (very nagging like until fully fleshed out).  I don't think there is anything that could be done to change that, and I definitely don't blame Gunn.   Just because I don't like her for those reasons does not mean I do not sympathize with her, respect her, and I was completely loving the last exchange more than any other segment she has been in.   I do feel her end is nearing, and that doesn't make me happy or giddy, and I can definitely see her offing herself if Walt does something to Beneke.

I'll be that guy: if you don't get where Skylar's coming from and can't at least EMPATHIZE with her situation, you're an asshole.

ETA: I also have no idea where the nagging complaints come from, even in the first two seasons. Maybe the first episode she's a little overbearing, but she's been the captain of the ship for quite some time in the family, mainly because Walt's always shied away from taking control of his life, because that would mean taking a chance. Especially on a re-watch, her little comment about him using the Mastercard on a purchase at Staples, "We don't use that card, remember?" hints that she's the only one handling the financial situation, with little help from Walt. Walt FEELS like he got screwed out of Grey Matter, but how many times did Gretchen and Elliot say that one day he just picked up and fucked off, leaving Gretchen in the wind and distancing himself from Elliot? We don't know all the details, but given Walt's arc, it's not too hard to guess that it wasn't something that was HIS so he decided it was worthless. Or, alternatively, it was too big a risk and he ran in the other direction. And when we meet him, that's just where he is: in the safest, most boring spot ever.

But Skylar didn't put him there. Skylar's just trying to keep their house afloat--and to someone who wants to just spend HIS money how HE wants to, consequences be damned, and to all the troggs out there who want that wish fulfilled, she can come off like a bit of a killjoy. But once she realizes his fugue state was bullshit, and he's just throwing her trust out the window without a second glance, HOW is she the bad guy there? How is getting right on his ass about it and showing him that he's going to reap what he sows--whether he wants to or not--make her "nagging"? Cause to me, that's what a real, mature relationship is supposed to look like. Skylar's the only adult in the house, and it's been that way the whole series. She's not perfect and she's not innocent, but she exercises her options with weight and maturity, and even when breaking the law keeps it in perspective: this is wrong, but it's where we are, might as well deal with it. Walt has never given that consideration. I've never understood being against Skylar for a second.

I'll be a different guy.  If you find yourself having problems with characters in TV shows because they remind you of ex-girlfriends, you need to stop being such a pussy. (I mean that in the most constructive way possible.)

The best use of music thus far was episode 10 of Season 2 when "DLZ" by TV On The Radio played when Walt approached the dude in the parking lot of the Home Depot and dropped the  "Stay off my turf" line................That is, of course, followed closely by Gale's karaoke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxYumTime 

The best use of music thus far was episode 10 of Season 2 when "DLZ" by TV On The Radio played when Walt approached the dude in the parking lot of the Home Depot and dropped the  "Stay off my turf" line................That is, of course, followed closely by Gale's karaoke.

"DLZ"'s the clear winner. For me it's followed by the 2 tracks in the season 4 closer: The tune playing as Gus walks up to the nursing home and the one playing as Walt and Jesse set fire to the lab. That episode had some great music choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

I'll be a different guy.  If you find yourself having problems with characters in TV shows because they remind you of ex-girlfriends, you need to stop being such a pussy. (I mean that in the most constructive way possible.)

Every day life does play into how you feel about things that you watch.  It always will, and just as with meeting someone in real life, first impressions make a major impact on the forming of a relationship.  When someone IRL or on tv looks, talks and somewhat acts like another person that you know, it takes a lot to break that.  I didn't hate my ex, it was just not a fun period in my life, and something seeing Skyler reminded of, and something that didn't begin to separate until well into the second half of season 2, and by that time the bar had been set.  

During the first season and well into the second season, it took awhile to establish her as the level headed.  The credit card was a good example, as to that point we didn't know how reckless Walt was or would become.  I'm not a hater, just haven't been her biggest fan either.  And she did turn the other cheek, and was into excitement the life symbolized when Walt told her the fugue state was bullshit.  She's not a saint, and just because I don't love her character doesn't mean I have to be rooting for Walt to off her either.  There are many opinions that don't have to go to extremes.  Like but not love?  Dislike but not hate?  Don't these have a place somewhere that doesn't involve someone being an asshole.

Two more inspired music choices to throw into the favorites list, both from Season 3: the Prince Fatty song when Jesse is fucking around in the superlab, and of course the ode to Wendy with "Windy" by The Association.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

Partly, although his experiences with Tuco/Tortuga/the Cousins have all left marks on him that weren't there previously.  I just think his progression provides a more linear counterpoint to Walt's, especially with the opposite trajectories on the machismo scale to compare them by.  Jesse's arc, while consistently compelling, has also been so thoroughly convoluted that it's hard to track it against Walt's steady decline.  

 

Not an incredibly important distinction to draw in the scheme of things, perhaps, but you may have noticed that I kinda like to pick over thematic minutia on this show.

The thing is, both Hank and Walt are wearing masks in certain situations.  For Hank that alpha male posturing is armor that he protects himself in.  He needs coworkers and criminals to think he's bulletproof, and at times (the bar fight) he needs to convince himself as well.  But we've seen Hank riddled with self doubt, we've seen him paralyzed into inaction (followed by action spurred along by fear).  Because we've seen behind his macho mask we like Hank more.  He's more human.

The more we see behind Walt's mask and see who he really is, the more we hate him.  We're captivated by him, but we're disgusted by him as well.  When we first saw Walt we saw the guy he wanted us to see, the family man and teacher.  Facing his own mortality has let that mask slip more and more.  At this point is there anybody other than Hank and Marie and the kids that haven't gotten glimpses behind it?

So I agree, opposite trajectories.  First glance we like Walt and Hank rubs us the wrong way.  The more we see beyond those facades the more we understand and like Hank and the more we're bothered by Walt.

One thought I had: Gilligan has said before that his staff often writes in terms of 4-episode arcs. I was reminded of that during this, the 4th episode, which felt like the culmination of what we saw from Skyler in the first 3 episodes. I'm also guessing that this was partly the reason that they settled on two 8 episode mini-seasons.

I rewatched the episode last night, and I can't praise the bedroom argument highly enough. What a brilliantly acted and directed scene.

I think the machine gun being intended for Gray Matter is a very exciting premise.  Walt going to take back what he always thought was his.  If that's the case though, I'm so damn curious how we are going to get there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Clark 

I'll be that guy: if you don't get where Skylar's coming from and can't at least EMPATHIZE with her situation, you're an asshole.

This bugged me more than I thought.  Why am I an asshole if I don't EMPATHIZE with her?  She made her bed in a way.  When Walt presented the truth, a good mother with an infant and a son with special needs would have picked up her kids and ran.  The Shield and Rescue Me both had the mothers do this.  She chose to stay, and unfortunately is now in a very bad situation for it.  I sympathize with her for making a bad decision.  I respect her for trying to fix that position.  I thought the scene the other night was the best her character has ever been.  I don't have to love her character or be a misogynist.  As a parent I will never empathize for anyone who puts their children at risk for their own guilty pleasure.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by jahosive 

This bugged me more than I thought.  Why am I an asshole if I don't EMPATHIZE with her?  She made her bed in a way.  When Walt presented the truth, a good mother with an infant and a son with special needs would have picked up her kids and ran.  The Shield and Rescue Me both had the mothers do this.  She chose to stay, and unfortunately is now in a very bad situation for it.  I sympathize with her for making a bad decision.  I respect her for trying to fix that position.  I thought the scene the other night was the best her character has ever been.  I don't have to love her character or be a misogynist.  As a parent I will never empathize for anyone who puts their children at risk for their own guilty pleasure.  

Er, the whole episode revolved around Skyler trying to get her children OUT of the situation. 

Are you confusing "empathy" with "sympathy"?

The episode did.   I agree.  I am talking her decision in season is the one that will never let me empathize.  I also said I respect her for doing her attempts to protect the children now, but her initial decision when Walt came clean was to stay.   She made the bed she is now in.  I  am sympathetic for her because of that.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxYumTime 

I think the machine gun being intended for Gray Matter is a very exciting premise.  Walt going to take back what he always thought was his.  If that's the case though, I'm so damn curious how we are going to get there.

That thread has been dead so long that I think they would've revived it by this point in the season if it was going to be a major part of the climax.  At the very least they would've reminded us of its existence sometime in the first 4 episodes.

That said, Walt seeming to come back to save Jesse from some cartel heavies in a hail of gunfire, only to pull right past the Vamanos Pest offices to pull into the Gray Matter office park and march inside with a machine gun would be about the blackest joke you could possibly fade to black on.  You want to subvert the Scarface blaze of glory and end by making the protagonist completely irredeemable?  That would do it, all right.

They would never, never do it, of course.  But it would be so fucking twisted I might just applaud it in spite of myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jahosive 

This bugged me more than I thought.  Why am I an asshole if I don't EMPATHIZE with her?  She made her bed in a way.  When Walt presented the truth, a good mother with an infant and a son with special needs would have picked up her kids and ran.  The Shield and Rescue Me both had the mothers do this.  She chose to stay, and unfortunately is now in a very bad situation for it.  I sympathize with her for making a bad decision.  I respect her for trying to fix that position.  I thought the scene the other night was the best her character has ever been.  I don't have to love her character or be a misogynist.  As a parent I will never empathize for anyone who puts their children at risk for their own guilty pleasure.  

Different situations, as both of those women could justify leaving their abrasive husbands that would not raise the same questions in the eyes of the world that leaving your terminally ill, unemployed husband of 20 years a month after the birth of your child would.  Not that either of them did a great job of staying away, as I recall.

Skyler, you might recall, tried to extricate herself and the kids from Walt in a way that would not out him as a multiple felon in S3, but he was only too happy to extort her with the potential devastation to Junior, Hank and Marie that would result in exposing his crimes.  And she didn't get off on cooking Beneke's books or the money laundering; the only time she derived any satisfaction from the illicit dealings was in screwing over Bogdan after he insulted her.  Walt is the one who puts the family at risk to get his jollies, Skyler's bad decisions (even giving Beneke the money, which many seem to hold against her on ridiculous grounds) have been in service of preventing those crimes from hurting the family (something Walt is less and less interested in these days).

I recall all of that, I just feel if she really worried about her infant daughter she would have just taken her and left, preferably to Hank and Marie's and let him out himself if he needed, or else stay away.  She would have looked bad, but the children would be in a better spot.  I don't say she deserves a horrible, and I don't say she has it easy.  I just don't empathize.  She could have turned evidence against Walt to get her off of  Beneke cooking the books also, if she really had wanted out.  At this point, trying to save Walt for Walt Jr. is becoming more and more pointless.  Not when she first did it.  I agree, her back is now against the wall, and it has been for awhile, but for such a strong character that takes no shit from Walt, she is not innocent and if she is as strong as everyone feels, she could have made other choices.  I'm not a hater, and I don't feel I'm ignorant because I don't agree with everyone here.  I am also not rooting for Walt and saying he needs to off her, and I don't look forward to seeing her pay for Walt's increasingly overconfident, self anointed king of the underworld reckless decisions.   

I honestly only get about half of what you're talking about.  She takes all kinds of shit from Walt.  Concern for the baby's safety has only recently become an issue.  But testifying against her husband was not an option anyone would jump at (even if some DA was eager to throw her sweetheart deal to secure an indictment against a meth cook almost sure to die of natural causes prior to trial, and she had any concrete information about the operation to give them), and one that would no doubt alienate her son and ruin the career of her brother-in-law, and do who knows what to her mentally fragile sister.

The idea that she is running out the clock was not raised for the first time this episode.  When considering the divorce proceedings in S3, she told her lawyer that her reluctance was due in part to knowing that if they can get through another year or so, the issue will resolve itself.  That's a powerful incentive not to overturn the lives of everyone you love.  Who would really choose that, even if it is the "right" thing to do?  I wouldn't.  Not even the idealized version of me I use to judge the behavior of fictional characters would.

And let's not forget that Walt chose this life. He had plenty of chances to get out before he made contact with Gus, and he certainly had a great opportunity to get out after he killed Gus. Hell, even Saul advised him to call it quits. But no, Walt rationalized that he was still out 640k's - he didn't even consider that he'd not only paid for his cancer treatment, but also set his family up with the car wash business.

Skyler is a decent woman who's trying to cope with the fact that her husband died six months ago and got replaced by a callous monster called Heisenberg. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

Skyler, you might recall, tried to extricate herself and the kids from Walt in a way that would not out him as a multiple felon in S3, but he was only too happy to extort her with the potential devastation to Junior, Hank and Marie that would result in exposing his crimes.  And she didn't get off on cooking Beneke's books or the money laundering; the only time she derived any satisfaction from the illicit dealings was in screwing over Bogdan after he insulted her.  Walt is the one who puts the family at risk to get his jollies, Skyler's bad decisions (even giving Beneke the money, which many seem to hold against her on ridiculous grounds) have been in service of preventing those crimes from hurting the family (something Walt is less and less interested in these days).

Maybe I'm remembering this incorrectly, but I thought she was cooking Ted's books to get him out of a jam?  The cooking of the books was definitely her first step into the world of crime and it had nothing at all to do with Walt or with saving the kids.  She might not have been doing it to derive satisfaction, but she was doing it to help Ted out (and this snowballed into the issue with the audit which ultimately resulted in the massive payment to Ted that you refer to).

Well, she was only passively cooking Ted's books by pointing out when he submitted something particularly egregious.  And yes, that was to help him and the company out.  I was referring to the $600k payment that the anti-Skyler brigade seems to regard as the bigger sin, although she really didn't have any other options, as his getting busted would lead to much worse repercussions than a bookkeeping fraud charge for her.

Ted was "mismanaging" the company and Skyler's cooking only happened as a way to keep him out of jail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Well, she was only passively cooking Ted's books by pointing out when he submitted something particularly egregious.  And yes, that was to help him and the company out.  I was referring to the $600k payment that the anti-Skyler brigade seems to regard as the bigger sin, although she really didn't have any other options, as his getting busted would lead to much worse repercussions than a bookkeeping fraud charge for her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios 

Ted was "mismanaging" the company and Skyler's cooking only happened as a way to keep him out of jail.

Right, but she was signing off on the accounting for the business which is actually what caused the later issue.  If she'd refused to help Ted with cooking the books she also never would have signed off on the accounting for the company, if she hadn't done that then the audit wouldn't have touched her at all.  The payment to Ted was to keep him out of the IRS crosshairs (and therefore protect the family) but that step was only necessary because she had taken the steps to help cook the books in the first place (something that had nothing to do with protecting the family).  I'm not saying the payment was wrong, or that Skyler is evil on a Walt level, but painting her as only acting to protect the family isn't correct.  Skyler broke bad in her own way without any help from Walt.

Also, it wasn't completely passive.  Her assistance with Ted started out passive and then she just essentially did the actual cooking because she knew that the way he'd done it would sink the company.  This is probably related to her affair with Ted, and with her genuine belief that Ted was a good guy (let's just say Skyler's biggest sin is her inability to read goodness in men).

ETA: All of this talk about Ted has me thinking about the Buyout in question for episode 6.  It would feel really in character for Walt right now to take the company from Ted for the $600k payment.  With the amount of ego flying out of control, it feels in character for Walt to want to emasculate Ted even further and to find some way in his mind to compensate for the "lost" money that Skyler gave to Ted.  We know the company was on the verge of bankruptcy anyhow, and we know that Ted is too scared of Walt/Skyler to say no.  A quick visit with Saul and Heisenberg to Ted's hospital room would almost certainly result in Walt being the proud new owner of Beneke Fabricators.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Well, she was only passively cooking Ted's books by pointing out when he submitted something particularly egregious.  And yes, that was to help him and the company out.  I was referring to the $600k payment that the anti-Skyler brigade seems to regard as the bigger sin, although she really didn't have any other options, as his getting busted would lead to much worse repercussions than a bookkeeping fraud charge for her.

When Walt told her in season 3 she could have threatened him or even reacted the way she did last episode.  VG wrote a flawed character, as almost every other character in the show is.  The beauty of BB is that it's up to you which flaws you as a person are willing to accept.  I am not of the anti-Skyler brigade, and I never mentioned the payoff money (which I do agree was in the best interest of the family and the best thing she could have done at that time).  I just do not empathize with her, and she is far from my favorite character.  And to assume that the cancer would come back in a short period of time and that is justification for everything he is putting the family at risk over is ridiculous.  If she would have bailed the second she knew, the only big thing it would have killed was Walt Jr's love for his dad.  She could have saved Hanks career, and even though the baby's health might not have been an issue at the time, the baby's future was.  The loss of property and the assets being frozen are not issues that go away with death if he is ever caught.    

And yes, in the Shield and Rescue Me, the fathers still had contact.  The Shield never gave his children back to him though, and she held him at bay.   

Which would be yet another opportunity for the show's favorite past time: visiting unbearable anguish upon Jesse's soul!
 

Has the theory of Saul and Skyler teaming up against Walt been tossed out yet?  I think Walt's biggest threats are gonna end up being the people he's terrifying rather than pissing off.  I could see Saul being driven to the point where he resorts to the actual law out of fear that his life's in danger.

You guys have done a great job articulating the problem I had from the very begining of this show...and that is Walt as protagonist.

In season one he chose his pride over his family (by refusing to allow his friends to pay for his treatment). The character became irredeeable for me in that moment. A man does not put his ego ahead of his family. Everything that has followed is really just fruit born of that poisonouus tree.

I watch the show because the performances are great, the writing is great, and the direction is top notch.....it is just that the initial set up was BS in my mind.

Walt has been doomed from the beginning......his transformation into Heisenberg began when he decided cooking meth was a legitimate solution to his problems. All the violence, the manipulation, the sociopathy are a necessity in the business he has chosen. Walt is a fool, he is a fool due to his hubris and that will be his undoing. Even if he emerges victorious over his rivals, cows Skyler, throws Hank off the trail and overcomes every obstacle put in front of him. He still loses in the end by simply becoming the monster that he must to survive.

As for the Skylar v Walt debate....they are both assholes. Walt's asshattery has been described ad nauseum in this thread. Skylar because she chose to back Walt early on and continues to keep his secrets and enable him. Just as Walt fails as a man and a father by making his initial choice, Skylar failed as a mother when she jumped in his business. Skylar seems more pissed that she is not an equal partner, than horrified at what a monster Walt has become. Sorry, but you dont get to take the money, get off on the excitement, then preserve your morals and keep your family safe. When you make a deal with the devil, you don't get to renegotiate the terms.

These themes have been played out countless times in crime fiction. Michael Corleone dying alone and irrelevant, Tony Soprano forever looking over his shoulder, or even Daniel Plainview finishing his life alone in a pool of his rivals blood.

There is no way for Walt to redeem himself, it may be possible for Skylar, doubtful for Jesse and Mike would just tell you to fuck off if you asked him about redemption. Even if Walt sacrificed himself to save his family or Jesse, there is no way for him to undo the harm he has done simply by producing meth. The plane crash made that point quite clear.

I will enjoy watching the events play out, and see how Gilligan chooses to end this story, but be sure....this is tragedy and it should have a tragic ending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

As for the Skylar v Walt debate....they are both assholes. Walt's asshattery has been described ad nauseum in this thread. Skylar because she chose to back Walt early on and continues to keep his secrets and enable him. Just as Walt fails as a man and a father by making his initial choice, Skylar failed as a mother when she jumped in his business. Skylar seems more pissed that she is not an equal partner, than horrified at what a monster Walt has become. Sorry, but you dont get to take the money, get off on the excitement, then preserve your morals and keep your family safe. When you make a deal with the devil, you don't get to renegotiate the terms.

I seriously don't know what show some of you are watching.  Skyler didn't get into this for the kicks, and she didn't make a deal with the devil, she married a guy who 20 years later brought a bomb into their house.  And while last year her arc was being pissed she was an equal partner and backing away once she saw what it entailed, this year she hasn't done anything but express horror at what Walt has become.  

Yeah, she took the money, and used it for such extravagances as an Albuquerque car wash (for hiding the source) and physical therapy for her brother in law.  And after her husband had quit the legitimate jobs that the family relied on for income and made her an accessory after the fact by tricking her into spending drug money on family expenses.

Seriously, I have never seen anyone as legitimately backed into a criminal enterprise as Skyler.  There's no point where a reasonable person would say "there, of course, that's where you bail on this whole thing."  Unlike Walt, who could've gotten out when he had his treatment paid for, or when he made his first million off Gus, or when he "won".

Not to mention that, unless I am reading your post incorrectly, you're calling the show a tragedy, while at the same time seem to be criticizing it for having a protagonist who has a classic tragic flaw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

I seriously don't know what show some of you are watching.  Skyler didn't get into this for the kicks, and she didn't make a deal with the devil, she married a guy who 20 years later brought a bomb into their house.  And while last year her arc was being pissed she was an equal partner and backing away once she saw what it entailed, this year she hasn't done anything but express horror at what Walt has become.  

 

Yeah, she took the money, and used it for such extravagances as an Albuquerque car wash (for hiding the source) and physical therapy for her brother in law.  And after her husband had quit the legitimate jobs that the family relied on for income and made her an accessory after the fact by tricking her into spending drug money on family expenses.

 

Seriously, I have never seen anyone as legitimately backed into a criminal enterprise as Skyler.  There's no point where a reasonable person would say "there, of course, that's where you bail on this whole thing."  Unlike Walt, who could've gotten out when he had his treatment paid for, or when he made his first million off Gus, or when he "won".

Whenever people talk about how Skyler was a willing participant in the deal, it feels to me like they took that one scene where she admires Ted's underfloor heating and went "wow, that money grubbing bitch!!" 

She hasn't done a single thing for selfish reasons. Should she have acted differently? Sure. If your argument is that she should have left earlier, I can't fault you there. But unlike Walt, she's judged herself for her previous actions and drawn a line in the sand. That makes her good enough for me.

I think the people who really hate Skyler, to the point where I don't really understand it, are mostly pissed because she fucked Ted and gave him Walt's earnings. To some, that's a far greater trespass than murder and drug kingpinning. I've tried explaining that it was the only Walt resistance she found available to her, and that she was only trying to keep the family protected by helping Ted, but that money is a real sticking point.

Another point in her favor is that Walt really soft peddled her into criminality. He's never let on how dangerous shit's gotten. The events at the end of last season likely came as a bigger shock for her than anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evi 

Whenever people talk about how Skyler was a willing participant in the deal, it feels to me like they took that one scene where she admires Ted's underfloor heating and went "wow, that money grubbing bitch!!" 

 

She hasn't done a single thing for selfish reasons. Should she have acted differently? Sure. If your argument is that she should have left earlier, I can't fault you there. But unlike Walt, she's judged herself for her previous actions and drawn a line in the sand. That makes her good enough for me.

What Evi and Schwartz said...church. 

Being a married woman (sans kids), I can only imagine what it would be like to face this.  And 20 years into a marriage?  I'm glad some people think it would be simple to just drop that, but that's an emotional commitment to a partnership with children involved.  How frightening, even for a strong woman like Skyler, it would be to face up to the fact that the man she married, the man she's lived with for 20 years, the man she's had 2 children with, is involved in drug dealing (or making in Walt's case).  Her choice to stick with him was played out so very well in Season 3.  Her desperate wish to protect her children from having to know the truth about their father made emotional sense.  She was able to keep him physically separate from her, whilst Walt Jr. could still have a relationship with his father who he desperately loves (although I've always gotten the feeling that he responds the best to Hank, who truly is his loving father-figure).  She got involved in the money laundering because she wanted to make sure that all the details were taken care of.  It was her way of controlling a situation that she really has no control over - and I suspect she's had to steer the household finances for a very long time.  It was a natuarl extention of what she has always done for Walt and the family, actually.  She is the kind of person who makes situations work - practical, detailed, hard-working, and low tolerance for bullshit (which pretty much sums me up, as well).

When she finally realised that her husband was quite happily a cold blooded killer, it completely fucked with her.  Her desperate wish to protect her children from knowing what their father had done had just blown up in her face.  Going into a depressionary spiral makes sense.  But she snaps out of it when she sees that her goal of protecting her children couldn't be accomplished by having them near her.  She's willing to be the "bad guy" (since the beginning) in order to reach her higher goals - now more than ever.  That bedroom scene was harrowing.  Skyler's strength combined with her knowledge that she is fucked means she is willing to go all the way.  I'm beginning to believe that SHE is the danger now.  She has nothing to lose in her attempts to attain her goal - the safety of her children.  My question is - what will Walt attempt to do to control her and break her down.  It won't work, whatever he tries...

Now, to look at what she did with Ted (and please everyone correct me on this if I'm wrong) came off like a woman who was looking for an emotional connection with someone.  Walt wouldn't tell her jack shit and she's heavily pregnant with his unplanned child and taking care of a stroppy teenager.  He would disappear without discussion (and that excludes the fugue state debacle).  Good God.  My husband thought she was entirely justified in giving him loads of shit in Season 2 and even cheating on him.  Ted was always gentle and gave her attention/affection that Walt wouldn't.  Now, from what I could tell, she didn't cook the books for Ted, she signed-off already cooked books.  I do think that distinction matters, as she is trying to make a bad situtation work out, rather than creating the bad situation itself.  Which is interestingly the same situation she finds herself in with her husband (how often has she in her life had to fix/clean up situations for the men around her?).  She fell into her role that she's always played with the men (and Marie as well with her klepto problems?) in her life.  What I find so impressive is that she holds herself completely accountable for the mistake she made and all the things that flow from it.  Now that is a moral vision I can relate to.

Oh my god.  I just wrote a dissertation on this subject.  I get Skyler and can see making the same mistakes since I have many of the personality traits that she has.  Perhaps that's why I take it all so to heart.  I want her to survive, but all I can hope for now is that her deep love for her children at least saves them.  I really am looking forward to Walt having his live destroyed.

I'm sorry I drug this whole thing up, I wasn't trying to troll.  I was paying a backhanded complement about really digging Skyler the other night, even though she is nowhere near my favorite character on the show (see Hank, Jess, Saul, Mike, Marie, Walt Jr then Skyler), and some of that is because of my own personal rationale, and not because she needs to die or her decisions demand that she must suffer an eternal pain.  This season they are really doing her character justice, and this season and season one are the only ones where I think she could be considered completely clean.  I understand the reasoning to shield her children from the truth of their father, but Holly doesn't factor in because she is too young to know Walt.  She could have told Walt Jr. nothing until she got them out of there, and figured something out.  She had a window, and she chose half measure to benefit from the money Walt was making, the thrill he brought and the happiness of her children.  

The Beneke love connection made perfect sense to me, and though I don't think anyone can ever be justified in cheating on someone, I think Walt started the lies and separation much earlier than the affair.  

I will once again say I sympathize for her.  I do not think I needed to be called an asshole because I won't empathize for her.  If she had tried harder to distance the children the second Walt came clean, I would empathize with her.  

 And Schwartz, just because I don't feel she is squeaky clean doesn't mean I am watching a different show than you.  I read your blog every week.  I read Zak's too.  I enjoy both of them, and they are both a little different (or else why have two?).   Skyler is a good but flawed character, as with almost any worth while show, it is hard to get a character to extremes.  I definitely don't feel she is the ultimate good presence on the show.  Walt Jr or Hank would be far more worthy of that title.  

Well whatever you guys do, don't read the comments underneath the latest picture on the BB Facebook page. Unless of course you want your mood ruined.

Oh, well I'll definitely go do that right now!

does that

Why the fuck did I do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evi 

Well whatever you guys do, don't read the comments underneath the latest picture on the BB Facebook page. Unless of course you want your mood ruined.

Does my non empathitic ass look better after reading those?

Skyler's not my favorite either.  Actually, she's probably my least favorite character besides Walter Jr., who basically exists so his parents can talk about doing things for the "the family" instead of just "you and me."  But I think it's a misreading of the character when people talk about her getting off on the excitement or loving the money.  Walt is invigorated by it, and we like the excitement that comes with it, but she has never had fun with the crime element, and has never used the money anything remotely selfish or extravagant (she berated Walt for buying one bottle of expensive champagne, remember).  The only time she derived any satisfaction at all from the underhanded dealings was in getting back at Bogdan for a personal slight, and it's not as if that's the reason she got into the biz.

I also honestly don't know when this window when she could've gotten out cleanly was.  At the beginning of S3?  When Walt was out of the house, and not cooking anymore?  The thing is, I think those who are hard on Skyler seem to at the least judge her decisions as if she knew everything we the audience did (Clinton) and at the most hate and fear vaginas that don't do as they're told (ugh, FB commenters).  I don't want to lump the former in with the latter, but it is still unfair to the character to pretend that she got involved out of greed, or with full knowledge of what she was getting into.

It saddens me a little that people don't care for Walt Jr.  I mean, I get it.  Really I do.  But I just can't help but appreciate that actor for doing what he does.  (And I don't believe anyone here doesn't.) He has earned so much goodwill from me, I personally wish he had a bigger role in the show.  I felt the show had a perfect opportunity to really explore his character when they started to develop Walt and Jesse's father/son scenario more, but they didn't dive into that like I personally wanted them to.  Ultimately, they had a bigger story to tell and that's fine.  I just can't help but see him as an untapped and wasted talent sometimes.

Walt Jr's a sweetheart and has had a couple of chances to shine (that father-son moment last year was heartbreaking) but he's been a bit too sidelined now for me to care much about him one way or the other.

How does a person have sympathy, but no empathy? I'm convinced you're confusing the two. Oh, forget it.

The problem with Walt Jr is that, well, R.J. Mitte isn't a very talented actor. Yes, the scene last year with his dad was crushing, but that was more about the writing and Cranston. All Mitte had to do was listen and react, which I concede he did well. It would be nice if he was more integral to the goings-on, but does he really have the range to pull that off?

I never assumed she knew everything we did, but as she started hearing about the consequences to turning him in for the divorce, she could have at least attempted and threatened then.  She did show an interest in the money and the life, even if she never used it.  She acted like getting involved was a big puzzle that she could put together better in a much better way than Saul was attempting.  It was short lived, and she never got any reward (or off) out of it, but she was intrigued.   She saw a long term potential for what was being done.  

Nothing would have been easy, and not even clean, but she let herself be sucked in more to something that definitely had major negatives that were known.  There were negatives about destroying her family and the fight to stay hidden from Walt would have caused, but she chose the ultimate path she is in.  I don't know why it is so wrong to think that she is partly responsible for the position she is in.  Was her decision made with ignorance for how bad things really were?  Yes.  Does that make her decision the only one?  Does it make her decision right?  You seem to think so on both these accounts, and I seem to disagree.  Once again, I am not a hater.  I was called an ASSHOLE because I don't empathize though, and I don't feel that is the only possible thing we are supposed to feel.  

I feel like I have slipped into the perpetual internet void.  Everything has to be the absolute.  There are those that seem to hate Skyler and everything she has ever done.  They want and beg for her to die and think her the biggest irritation on the show.  Those are the people in almost every site but this according to what I read here, but I don't visit many other sites, and don't participate on any other forum.  The forum here seems to put her on a pedestal, making her seem like an angel caught in a net.  I am more in line of the latter, but she is no angel, and has made bad decisions and done bad deeds.  The second she knew he was cooking, if she was really concerned for the future of Holly, she should have packed, left and started new.  Hell, she could have left Jr behind and became a villain until she thought of something better to do.  Holly's livelihood was put in jeopardy by having their home and assets seized.  I'm not talking about the violence or lack of caring for anyone else that we knew Walt had.  I'm talking about putting a greater distance between him and his daughter, and not doing things half measure by letting him near, but staying separated.  She had more leverage to make open ended threats to turn him in at that time.  For what we know of Walt, he may have killed her for doing so, but again, she was not aware of what we as an audience were.  Then, I would have empathized with her.

With regards to RJ Mitte, I don't know if I've actually seen anything to tell me if he could or couldn't step it up.  He plays petulant teenager who blames his mom for everything well, if anything.  Otherwise I do admit to seeing his character as more of a plot device than a fully fleshed out character.  But an argument could be made that actors with similar amounts of screen time on the show make more of an impact - see Marie as a good example.  But I get the feeling that the writers are a bit more interested in the adults...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangy 

How does a person have sympathy, but no empathy? I'm convinced you're confusing the two. Oh, forget it.

Empathy is the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another sentient or semi-sentient (in fiction writing) being. Someone may need to have a certain amount of empathy before they are able to feel compassion.

Sympathy is an extension of empathic concern, or the perception, understanding, and reaction to the distress or need of another human being.^[1] This empathic concern is driven by a switch in viewpoint, from a personal perspective to the perspective of another group or individual who is in need. Empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably, but the two terms have distinct origins and meanings.^[2] Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy, however, does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another. Although sympathy may begin with empathizing with the same emotion another person is feeling, sympathy can be extended to other emotional states.

I don't find myself sharing the emotional state of the character due to not thinking she is innocent in being where she is at.  I do however have concern for her well being.  I do feel bad for the situation she is in, but I cannot relate to why she is there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jahosive 

I don't find myself sharing the emotional state of the character due to not thinking she is innocent in being where she is at.  I do however have concern for her well being.  I do feel bad for the situation she is in, but I cannot relate to why she is there.

I think this argument is getting a little muddy, because I'm not sure anyone's asking you to relate to every little choice/mistake she's made to get her to where she is at this moment. When Greg said people who don't empathize are assholes, he meant people who can't empathize with her current predicament. The one that has her acting a bit crazy because she's terrified of the man in the bed next to her, is worried about the future of her children and has no rational concept of how to untangle herself from the mess she's gotten herself into.

Also, and this is getting further into that semantic hole, but from what you've said it seems that you do empathize with her ie. you recognize that she's truly horrified and isn't just being a bitch.

Quick tangent: The AV Club's Todd Van Der Werff posted this on Twitter today:

Can't wait.