In Sanford, Florida, murder is not a crime as long as the victim is African American - Page 10

Look, I understand I'm going "against the grain". At the end of the day, what people think on CHUD.com is pretty inconsequential to me. I'm sure it is to everyone else as well. And I remember perfectly well that I called a bunch of whiners "a bunch of whiners" in a previous thread, something like six months ago. 

 

I also perfectly recall that their response to me, in that particular thread, was "YOU WEREN'T THERE SO YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS". 

 

If I am not fit to judge a situation based on the evidence presented (since I was not, in fact, there), why is anybody else?

 

 I find this spectacularly unsurprising.

Funny, I feel the same way about this post. 

I mean what do you want from me, their names? Do you want to message them personally? Should I get someone to witness my conversations in the future so I can get them notarized and present them to you? It's a small handful of guys I worked with at a General Motors plant out here a few years ago. Really the only black people I know/associate with. It was a heated discussion, it was worked out. 

 

Jesus Christ, now we're going to infer I'm a liar as well as an idiot? No, I'm probably imagining that.

Hybris I've had no harsh words for you whatsoever on the site, in fact I can't recall ever having traded any negative words.

 

So please, let me state that this argument is seemingly carrying baggage that should be unrelated.

 

I wasn't calling you a liar. I was simply unsurprised that someone called you a racist. Just as I am unsurprised that the people who called you a racist are the only black people you know. Glad you worked it all out though.
 

 

Why is it that you are unsurprised by those things?

 

To be fair, nobody called you an idiot except me. And sure, why not, I will call you a liar too. After all, I wasn't there during this heated conversation with you and your "black associates." 

And hey, imagine that, you'd be at perfect liberty to doubt the official story. You could even write a blog about it. Imagine the comments you would get.

 

Because I read your posts?
 

 

Double post. Apologies. 

 

And garnered what, from those posts? I don't like to jump to conclusions, people get mad.

 

what

 

Link to the dead or alive, please. You will find, I believe, adequate amounts of "Spike Lee is an idiot" in this thread about the address thing. No one, in this thread, is advocating vigilante justice. I want the man arrested, most of the people that you would call pro-Trayvon want Zimmerman arrested, not lynched.

 

The Obama thing is an analogy. There are more people saying Democrats worship Obama than there are Democrats that worship Obama. Just as there are more people saying, "If I say I disagree with you then you will call me a racist." Than people calling people racist.

 

Case in point: NO ONE HERE CALLED YOU RACIST
 

 

Case in point: Someone in my real, outside-the-internet life did, which is far more in-your-face and troubling. 

 

EDIT: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/24/New-Black-Panther-Party-Issues-Wanted-Dead-or-Alive

 

There's that, too. I didn't screen for political affiliations, I just grabbed the link, but I'm sure if you Google "Zimmerman Dead or Alive" you can find something suitable. 

 

 

Hybris, you realize that if people didn't make assumptions about this case, Trayvon would be dead, Zimmerman would be free and there would be no call for an investigation that might possibly lead to justice, right? 

 

Therefore, you're advocating for the position that everything was fine. Everything was handled fine by default. No problem whatsoever. Clearly, black people might have a different perspective about this. Being white, you enjoy something called white privilege. You don't know what it's like being black. The black community understands that this kind of thing can often be the result of racism; systemic and otherwise. Therefore, if you're suggesting to them that they shouldn't get upset about what happened and let the chips fall where they may, they're not going to take too kindly to that. And frankly, neither will folks like...well, me. And most of us on here. 

It's not about you taking a contrary position. It's what that contrary position suggests. 

And why are we bringing the New Black Panthers up? Not only are they not part of the actual Black Panther organization, they aren't even taken that seriously.

How dare they get in your face with the suggestion that you might be racist! That certainly is troubling indeed! 

Way more troubling than the idea that an innocent kid could possibly have been murdered for nothing. And that an investigation wasn't completed because of assumptions made about his race. We shouldn't rush to conclusions about that until all the facts are in. And hey, the facts said that he deserved to die, and his shooter was AOK! Case closed!

But about those black people that got in your face. So, so, so, so troubling. Clearly. 

Boy that's a persecution complex you could see from space.

Is that the usual M.O.?  Dive in and accuse everyone of rank ignorance, in an opinionated but fairly fact based discussion, lump them in with the worst stuff on the 'net and generally armchair quarterback the armchair quarterbacking.  When this results in defenses, roll over and flail about how people hate you, imply you're racist, suggest you're stupid (despite none of the above actually happening) and oh god no black friends any more, woe is me.

Yeesh.  You might want to get that looked at.

 

Everyone in this thread has repeatedly said that what they're calling for is terrible and totally missing the point. As was the Spike Lee/Rosanne Barr tweet. So I don't even know what the point of bringing it up now is.

No, I don't think everything was handled fine. What I think (and what I stated) is that people take that base statement: "Things were not handled well", and they run with it. Before it's gone two pages, it's no longer "Things were not handled well", it's "Everyone affiliated with the case is an idiot based on the fact that George Zimmerman has not been tagged with murder". Even the title of the thread seems to imply a verdict has been reached, and it was made before most of the details had even surfaced. 

 

And you're right, I'm not black. I don't know what it's like being black. I should be more aware of my comments and how they might be received, although my "black associates" did come to see my point of view in the case, which seems funny, given that it's not likely to happen here. It's great that people want an arrest. I think they should get one. I think he should be accountable for what happened. I just think a lot of feedback from the internet peanut gallery (which I myself am a part of!) can be a little over-the-top, even ignorant, and maybe even counterproductive to the race politics that they think they are bettering. 

 

*EDIT: Somebody asked me for the link, guys. Relax.

 

 

I suppose I should answer this genuinely. All I mean, in posting it, was that a real-life assertion that I am racist, even though I had associated with this person for years and have never been accused as such, was far more poignant than a barb from somebody on the internet. I thought that was fairly apparent as well.

Lumping everything said into one post, ignoring key points, misstating and misrepresenting others, and making up still more? Yeah, that's not like a typical internet response AT ALL. 

 

What you stated (as sarcastically as the thread was titled, I'm sure) was that "We were all there. We all knew what happened." That suggests that none of us deserve to be outraged about what happened. And that suggests to me that you clearly don't understand why anyone is outraged about what happened. 

Since you seem to be convinced that race had nothing to do with this, ask yourself this question. If Trayvon were white, and Martin were black, would this situation have played out differently?

Quote:

I prefer the term "Blaxociates"...

 

I'm also a bit alarmed that the entire time I read through this thread today, I was wearing this hoodie...

 

 

And yes, the hood has ears on top.There's all sorts of implications/dangers/responsibilities there. But if I do become a nocturnal vigilante (keeping an eye on the corrupt neighborhood watchmen), will my actions be protected under the SYG?

 

And Central FL may have some backwater areas (like Sanford), but it's not the "Deep South". See the panhandle for that. Course, I've only lived here 6+ out of my 36+ years, so what do I know?

 

In all seriousness, this incident is a travesty.
 

 

Your reaction suggests that it's not hyperbole at all. You seem specifically angry about the fact that they called you a racist. You stated that several times, and you seem insistent that the shooting wasn't based on race, or that we can't claim that until we know for certain, or if we were there.

You know, I agree the first post I made was shitty. It was. It was exasperated and shitty, and I fucked up. Everyone has every right to be upset. I think "outrage" might be too strong of a word, and I think that said outrage causes people to react spastically and irrationally, as evidenced by the articles I've read and the Facebook posts I've been subjected to. I was exasperated by that, and I was exasperated by what I perceived to be more of the same, in this thread. 

 

I think I have as much right to be exasperated as people have to be outraged. When emotions run high, people can and do act utterly ridiculous. I did, however, allow my previous interactions with people on this particular judgement to color the post that I made, so I suppose I can't be offended if anybody else did the same.

 

I still don't think I'm an idiot, though.

 

My reaction is exasperation. Again. Someone posted that "not as many people are calling other people racist over this as you think". I pointed out that I, myself, had been called a racist over it, so at the very least my comment had some justification. Everyone evidently took that as me being SUPER OFFENDED about being called a racist, which was not the case at all. I don't think he's right, but I can see how he would think he was right.

 

*EDIT: And also, there is indication that Zimmerman was more suspicious of Trayvon because he was black. Yes, that suspicion led to him following Trayvon. That IS racist. However, when you come down to the issue of the guy's head being whacked on the ground and the shooting (possibly) happening in "self-defense" (which I agree is subjective and dicey), really... the shooting was motivated by the fact that the dude didn't want to be beaten to death. And so, (long-winded), I think that stating it as baldly as "Trayvon was shot and killed because he was black" leaves out a lot of potentially key details. 

Nobody ever said you didn't have the right to say anything. 

I honestly don't understand why you can't see why outraged isn't the perfect word, frankly. Why doesn't this case outrage you? That's what I'd like to know. Because honestly, the fact that everyone isn't outraged about this outrages me.

As does the "blame the mentality" spin from conservative media. As are the reactions from the new Black Panthers, the Spike Lee tweets, the death threats that totally miss the point.

Don't you get it? It's Trayvon getting killed, yeah. But it's also everything else after it. Nothing good has come from this, just more bad shit. And that suggests that we can't have an honest or mature discussion of race or racism; a very real and very serious issue, without devolving into the very type of flippant attitude you displayed with your initial post. Far from it. It suggests just how much of a racist country we are, and it's worse than I thought, and I thought it was pretty bad to begin with. 

So from this case, it's outrage on top of outrage for me. I have luxury of being born white, but I see racism everyday and it angers me. I take it very personally. You're obviously approaching this from a personal place and that's why you took the stance that you did. 

In short; this isn't about you.
 

 

The amount of evidence suggesting Trayvon was beating Zimerman is minimal compared to the evidence that he wasn't.

But forget about Zimmerman for now. How about the suggestion that Trayvon was brought to the morgue and tagged a John Doe by the police after his death? Or that his cell phone wasn't used to verify his address? Or that his family wasn't notified for more than two days? Or that Zimmerman wasn't given a drugs or alcohol test, which is routine for any shooting incident? 

If you don't think Zimmerman's motivations were racist, what about the policies? 

The weight of irony and lack of self awareness may just make me go all Scanners here...

I'd just like to say that I have no Associates, Black, Legal or Black&Legal. Guess I'll just have to make do with my friends....

 

Look, I don't want to mince this all fucking day. You're telling me why you have the right to act the way you do (personal feelings), and then telling me it's not about me, and I don't have the right to defend myself. 

 

Of course it's not "about me". This kid was shot and killed because he went to get some fucking candy. That sucks, man. That's terrible, it's garbage, and if it was racially motivated, it's even worse. 

 

HOWEVER, I am still exasperated. THAT is about me. That influences my opinion on the case, just as your feelings influence yours. I see an awful lot of things that indicate people want some kind of movie justice out of this, an eye for an eye. You clearly see those things too, as you have mentioned them. It's immeasurably frustrating to me when there are extremists on both sides causing all kinds of trouble, and in the middle is a teeming mass of people clamoring for SOMETHING to be done without really thinking about what that entails, or how to go about it. Holy shit, my exasperation runs deep. 

 

I just.. I have to believe there's SOMEONE of competence that is trying to get something done about this. I have to believe that "the right side" is more than just a bunch of flipper-flailing on the internet. Seeing articles and blogs that are essentially "OMG WAI THEY R NOT DOIN ANYTHIGN RARRRRRGH SO MAD" hurts my fucking SOUL, man. And you know, I said up there, I shouldn't have let those particular things color my approach to this thread, and I did. That's on me. I was wrong. 

A lot of ball-dropping. A lot of incompetence on the job. But I don't know it's racist. I don't know it would have been different if he was Asian or white or Hispanic. How do you? And that's not rhetorical, did I miss something in those stories?

Again, I never said you didn't have the right to say anything. 

When I said this isn't about you, I mean that you're putting more weight into the fact that you are exasperated then you are the fact that an innocent, black seventeen year old kid is dead and the man who did it isn't arrested. 

You're missing the stories about the white kids that get shot without any consequence happening to the shooter. Because that doesn't happen.

You're missing the stories about the white kids being tagged a John Doe in the morgue for two days, the cops not using their cell phone to identify their family. Because that doesn't happen.

You're missing the stories about the black shooters not getting arrested for killing someone. Not getting a drugs or alcohol test after shooting someone. Because that doesn't happen.

And I was wrong, as I stated. Did I apologize? If not, sorry. 

 

I did acknowledge that. It's a shame that he is dead. A travesty. And there are things coming to light that are going to make me look even worse for ever giving Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt and placing the blame more on the police department, I can see that already. 

 

I can't get behind this. I can't. I'm sure they exist. I'm sure they happen. I'm sure they're equally tragic. I just don't think you can PRESUME something to be racist. I mean, weren't there ANY black people affiliated with the case? No black cops, on the scene or at the police department, or at the morgue?

 

I feel like you're tagging it racist, just because there's no proof that it's not. 
 

 

And I'm not trying to fight. I just feel like that's paranoia, at least a little bit. 

Find me one example and I'll believe you. Just one. 

 

Meanwhile, some info you might find interesting. 

Why is the history of the Sanford Police Department in question?

Sanford PD's officers have suffered a series of public missteps in recent years, according to local reporters. In 2006 two private security guards—the son of a Sanford police officer, and a volunteer for the department—killed a black teen with a single gunshot in his back. Even though they admitted to never identifying themselves, the guards were released without charges. In 2009, after an assailant allegedly attempted to rape a child in her home, the department was called to task for sitting on the suspect's fingerprints, delaying identification and pursuit of the attacker.

Perhaps the most significant incident occurred in late 2010: Justin Collison, the son of a Sanford PD lieutenant, sucker-punched a homeless black man outside a bar, and officers on the scene released Collison without charges. He eventually surrendered after video of the incident materialized online. The police chief at the time was ultimately forced into retirement. "Bottom line, we didn't do our job that night," a Police Department representative told WFTVof the incident. The TV station later learned that the Sanford patrol sergeant in charge on the night of Collison's assault, Anthony Raimondo, was also the first supervisor on the scene of Trayvon Martin's shooting death.

As a result of these incidents and their initial handling of Martin's death, the Sanford Police Department has been under increased scrutiny. Martin's parents have suggested they might call for Police Chief Bill Lee to resign.

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/490926/jury-finds-roderick-scott-not-guilty/?ap=1&MP4 was what immediately came to mind, but he was still arrested. I'll keep looking, I guess, even if it's just for me. I'd like to know. Of course any news source is going to be absolutely packed with stories about Martin, so it's hard to do any actual research, but... it doesn't suck any less that that white kid is dead, man. There's a lot of people who aren't happy Scott was acquitted. It's all hearsay in that case. 

 

But to your credit, he was arrested and charged. It's shitty that Zimmerman wasn't. 

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

 

You know they did give Trayvon a drug/alcohol test, and DID NOT give one to Zimmerman.  That's not dropping the ball.

 

I think it is. Zimmerman is Hispanic. Is this a black versus Hispanic race war where the blame is placed on white cops? It just seems so muddy. 

 

 

I think we all blame Zimmerman for shooting him and the cops for not doing their jobs. And Zimmerman is half Hispanic / half European white.

Hybris, I've said something in a political thread once that was pure emotion and hyperbole--and these members called me on it, and rightly so! You're human, I'm human...just let it go. Let's just get back on topic (you may not agree w/ people's opinions, but to argue against them with the same point over and over if fruitless). I say this w/ no hostility. PEACE

 

Anyway, JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON. Burn disney! (not literally...sarcasm).

 

 

Zimmerman is mixed, his father is white, his mother is Peruvian.  Regardless, you do not have to be pure bread white, your victim just has to be black. 

 

How is testing the victim and not the shooter dropping the ball, rather than willful negligence???  Occam's razor.  What is more likely, that the Sanford PD failed on such a spectacular level as to neglect doing what any rookie wannabe cop still in training would routinely do, or that there were racist motivations in a clearly racially divided community (Sanford) and state (FL), taking into account the department's racially motivated past efforts???

 

Martin was a young, hooded black man, Zimmerman was a non black ex judges' son who'd gotten out out previous scrapes in the past with the help of his law buddies.  He was not tested, Trayvon was.   It's not rocket science.

 

Edited by Ambler - 4/10/12 at 8:20pm

They never met Zimmerman face to face. Zimmerman evidently didn't consider them his attorneys. They're probably just two random assholes who volunteered to interject themselves in front of every rolling camera they could find. Florida, everybody!

With regard to Zimmerman, I do wish the press would quit referring to him as a "neighborhood watch volunteer." Zimmerman's neighborhood has no official neighborhood watch. He's just a guy who spammed 911 every time he saw a black kid on the sidewalk. He's the Hockey Pants Guy, looking for a Scarecrow.

So when this 6 foot tall, 160 lb kid - this human string bean, in other words - who is on foot, sees the armed man get out of the motor vehicle, which is big enough to kidnap a minor with, I'm really curious to know what unpredictable set of circumstances could turn it into a legit case of self-defense on Zimmerman's behalf.

What... you said that it was "not dropping the ball", I said that I thought it was. I'm confused.