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The Racism & Social Injustice Catch-All - Page 149

post #7401 of 7710

Ally theater or not, I have a real problem as a straight white guy telling anyone that isn't straight, white, or male how they should or shouldn't feel about a particular issue relating to any of those things. 

 

Well-meaning people can still do a lot of harm. The entire progressive era was based around well-meaning white people, and while that did have a net good, it also did a lot of harm. 

post #7402 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

It's accusing well-meaning people of what is about to become Waaaaaaaalt's new favourite phrase: Ally Theatre.

Using a keyboard to chide others for not manning the barricades is the new fidget spinner.

Ooooooh that is a good one.

post #7403 of 7710
I'm only slightly to the right of Boone and even so the weight of the jargon is starting to wear me out.
post #7404 of 7710
Yes, yes...let the foul taste of jargon flow through you. Only through your cynicism and discontent can you truly become...one of us.

In all seriousness, there is a much bigger enemy to fight here than "polite white people" and those who try to chastise them. They are in the WH, they were on the streets of Charlottesville and Boston, they're in the media, and Satan help me, they'll be at the voting booth for the foreseeable future.
post #7405 of 7710

i find your lack of faith in jargon...problematic

post #7406 of 7710
Quote:
 Nearly all monuments to the Confederacy and its leaders were erected without anything resembling a democratic process. Regardless of their representation in the actual population in any given constituency, African Americans had no voice and no opportunity to raise questions about the purposes or likely impact of the honor accorded to the builders of the Confederate States of America. The American Historical Association recommends that it’s time to reconsider these decisions.


https://www.historians.org/news-and-advocacy/statements-and-resolutions-of-support-and-protest/aha-statement-on-confederate-monuments

post #7407 of 7710
Interesting read and it makes some good points in comparing confederate monuments to the monuments of British colonization in India and the communist monuments to Marx, Lenin and Engels in Hungary.

Are monuments made to people who committed innumerable atrocities still art?

Also, is destroying these monuments the correct thing to do? I do not mean to imply that monuments to the confederacy are okay, I am just wondering if erasing the evidence left by those who supported the confederacy is similar to trying to erase the memory of this bad period in history. I feel that the evidence of the dark parts of our past shouldn't be erased, because it makes it easier for those the dark parts to be forgotten by future generations and if our dark past is forgotten then the lessons society learned risk being forgotten as well.

Personally I feel like the monuments should be removed from their current public spaces and then moved to a few dedicated places where there is additional information all around these monuments. This information would be there to provide a true account of the how the past played out and provide the context that these are monuments that were built by people who idolized the confederate states, which was alliance of southern states that started a civil war because they wanted to keep a race of people enslaved and then lost that war after more than six-hundred-thousand lives were lost. These are monuments to traitors and the confederate states should forever be remembered as being an ethically bankrupt society that used racism to convince themselves that enslavement was perfectly okay because their economy depended on slave labor.
post #7408 of 7710

I think there have been examples, particularly in post-colonial or post-Soviet Union countries, where those monuments have been repurposed as art. Here's what I said in the Trumpocalypse thread about this, which I later expanded on Facebook:
 

Quote:
 

First - overwhelmingly, without question, they need to come down. If I had my druthers, I'd pull them all down and let the historians sort them out. Sand down Stone Mountain. Tear them down.

In their place, I would put a plaque or a marker indicating that there was a statue here, something similar to what Mayor Landrieu said in his speech:

"[This statue, and many others like it across the United States were erected] as part of the movement which became known as The Cult of the Lost Cause. This ‘cult’ had one goal — through monuments and through other means — to rewrite history to hide the truth, which is that the Confederacy was on the wrong side of humanity. First erected over 166 years after the founding of our city and 19 years after the end of the Civil War, the monuments that we took down were meant to rebrand the history of our city and the ideals of a defeated Confederacy. It is self-evident that these men did not fight for the United States of America, They fought against it. They may have been warriors, but in this cause they were not patriots. They are not just stone and metal. They are not just innocent remembrances of a benign history. These monuments purposefully celebrate a fictional, sanitized Confederacy; ignoring the death, ignoring the enslavement, and the terror that it actually stood for."

For the particularly notable bad dudes, like Bedford Forrest, I'd make sure to list their atrocities and make it clear how bad dudes they were.

Over time, I'd also look at erecting statues and monuments to slaves, to those that have fought across the span of American history for the cause of freedom and righteousness - the opposite of what those statues stand for.

In some rare - so rare as their names are blanking - cases, where there are statues of figures who were truly repentant after the end of the Civil War, who went on to fight for the rights of freed African Americans, who displayed true remorse, I'd re-erect those statues, but only on the battlefield where they fought, and with a plaque detailing the above passage from Landrieu, noting their efforts after the war.

And the rest? Well, that's a problem. Because you want to tear them down. I want to even melt them down. I want to erase them from our history. And I understand that impulse. We want to tear these statues down and tow them away. But as I've been saying all week - the statues have less to do with the Civil War and more to do with the period we don't like to talk about. So here's what I propose -

We build a park.

I'm not sure where we build it. Perhaps it's an addition to a Civil War museum. Perhaps it's part of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, which has - from everything I've read - dealt well with confronting the bleakness as well as the hope. I'm not sure.

But we frame the addition with the history of the statues, connecting them to Jim Crow, to acts of terror, to genocidal lynching, to the pogroms and the erasure, and the role those statues played in those years of terror. We describe the debates over "heritage not hate," culminating with the Charleston shooting and the Charlottesville riots and the move to pull the statues down.

Then, after all that, you give the visitor the option of going out into the "sculpture garden" where some of the more prominent statues are kept. You make it a beautiful park, with flowers and landscaping from across the South, from the regions ruled, invaded, and conquered by these men represented by these statues.

But you put the statues on their sides. You bury them in the dirt so they only go up to the waist. You allow artists to repurpose them into pieces. If those artists want to melt them down, so be it.

But above all, you make it so visitors look down at them. Not up. Never up again.

post #7409 of 7710
So Stone Mt is the eviler Mt Rushmore? Do Americans feel bad about Mt Rushmore or is that just politely ignored?
post #7410 of 7710

Mount Rushmore is seen as a controversial landmark by some people from many different backgrounds, yes. Not sure what that kind of whataboutism proves, though. 

 

Like, yes, Mount Rushmore, and its construction, and where it was constructed, is very bad and we should talk about that more.

 

But it's not treasonous slave-owners standing fifty feet tall. Come on. 

post #7411 of 7710

ICE Plans to Start Destroying Records of Immigrant Abuse, Including Sexual Assault and Deaths in Custody - https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/ice-plans-start-destroying-records-immigrant 

Good God.

post #7412 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

Mount Rushmore is seen as a controversial landmark by some people from many different backgrounds, yes. Not sure what that kind of whataboutism proves, though. 

Like, yes, Mount Rushmore, and its construction, and where it was constructed, is very bad and we should talk about that more.

But it's not treasonous slave-owners standing fifty feet tall. Come on. 

Hey I did say Sand was evil-er, I just think Rushmore is pretty damn monstrous and it isn't brought up at all when people talk about terrible monuments.
post #7413 of 7710
post #7414 of 7710
I see they're taking a page from the Catholic Church's book and rather than get rid of a holiday people are use to celebrating every year, simply repurpose it. I just wish they could decide on a specific event that is important to indigenous people and worth celebrating and then assign the day as a celebration of that event. Otherwise I feel Indigenous Peoples day isn't going to take hold. I think the reason why Columbus Day is memorable is because it celebrates the anniversary of Columbus's arrival in the Americas on October 12th, 1492 and I feel it's the story of his arrival that makes the day memorable (even though this story is more fantasy and propaganda than fact, much like the thanksgiving feast of the pilgrims).

They need to attach a specific pre-school friendly story that is more compelling than the story of Columbus telling everyone the world is round, sailing west to prove this and instead of finding a new route to India, he discovered America (and then the story usually ends with the anecdote that Columbus was so clueless that he thought he did land in India, which is why the indigenous people got the nickname of "Indians"). Finding a story that focuses only on indigenous people and outclasses the Columbus story taught in schools would greatly help in making this rebranding of the holiday stick in the public consciousness.
Edited by Tim K - 8/30/17 at 5:05pm
post #7415 of 7710
post #7416 of 7710
even before I read the link, I knew I'd be reading a rationalization that equated to "it was just a jooooke"
post #7417 of 7710

Uh oh. John Boyega grinding on a Caribbean dancer (consensually), Twitter losing their shit, Boyega not responding in the best way:

 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08/31/fans-possessive-john-boyega/

post #7418 of 7710
ohohohohoooooo
post #7419 of 7710

no heroes

post #7420 of 7710

Things I have learned from reading about this online: the phrase "secure a whine."

post #7421 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munson View Post


Hey I did say Sand was evil-er, I just think Rushmore is pretty damn monstrous and it isn't brought up at all when people talk about terrible monuments.

 

 

I need to ask for clarification on this. Why do you think Rushmore is monstrous?  I have never been, and honestly only seen North by Northwest and that one Simpson's episode. 

post #7422 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTyres View Post
 

 

 

I need to ask for clarification on this. Why do you think Rushmore is monstrous?  I have never been, and honestly only seen North by Northwest and that one Simpson's episode. 

 

The mountain itself is sacred land to the local Native Americans, and like a lot of land, it was promised that the government wouldn't mess with it, and then they stole it anyway, which they they defaced by carving heads into it. It would basically be like spraypainting O DOYLE RULES in St. Peter's. 

post #7423 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Uh oh. John Boyega grinding on a Caribbean dancer (consensually), Twitter losing their shit, Boyega not responding in the best way:

 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08/31/fans-possessive-john-boyega/

 

How the fuck is this a thing?  

post #7424 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Uh oh. John Boyega grinding on a Caribbean dancer (consensually), Twitter losing their shit, Boyega not responding in the best way:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08/31/fans-possessive-john-boyega/

This is all fine, including his response. The internet is filled with garbage people with their garbage hang-ups.
post #7425 of 7710

Apparently this Notting Hill Carnival in London celebrates black British culture and all indications are Boyega and the dancer were having a good time together like two consenting adults.

 

Then the insidiousness of the Internet creeps in, with people saying he's demeaning the woman. Which is shorthand for we're uncomfortable seeing a black man act sexual. 

post #7426 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Apparently this Notting Hill Carnival in London celebrates black British culture and all indications are Boyega and the dancer were having a good time together like two consenting adults.

Then the insidiousness of the Internet creeps in, with people saying he's demeaning the woman. Which is shorthand for we're uncomfortable seeing a black man act sexual. 

That's a leap. If he were white, he'd probably get the same response or worse. If they are uncomfortable with seeing a black man act sexual, I'm sure they'd die of a fucking stroke if they saw what he probably got up to after TFA came out.
post #7427 of 7710

Maybe.

post #7428 of 7710

Oh boy.*

*not sure if racist**

**not sure if thinking this makes me a garbage person***

***not sure if this is problematic and classist 

post #7429 of 7710
Oh Boyega.
post #7430 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Oh boy.*

*not sure if racist**

**not sure if thinking this makes me a garbage person***

***not sure if this is problematic and classist 

post #7431 of 7710

The Boyega thing does dovetail neatly with something I've realized - both in the discussions here, and about internet culture generally - somehow, reading everything as a personal attack or affront is the first line of defense. It reminds me a lot of how Jessica Chastain quoted MLK, and someone pointed out that MLK was more radical than we expect, and she took it super personally. Not a good look. A lot of times, I don't actually see responses like this as a personal attack or someone's hang ups - a lot of times, it's a scholar or historian or someone who just knows about this shit because it's their culture using a celebrity tweet as an example/point for discussion. Is there a fair amount of THIS IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD? Yeah, but nobody takes that seriously. I know I have a tendency to read everything as a personal attack!!!! but I do think in cases like this or Chastain's, it's less a personal attack and more a "did you know?" filtered through the hype and gif machine that is Tumblr/Twitter. 

post #7432 of 7710
The best response Boyega could have had?

"Don't worry, later that night when I was walking her out of my hotel room and to the Uber I paid to take her home, I said I was sorry if she found my grind dancing with her demeaning or disrespectful"

He'd absolutely catch shit for that, but I would have died.
post #7433 of 7710

Kay. 

post #7434 of 7710
Man, you've gotta tell me who your internet provider is because they must be awesome if you're getting access in a remote monastery in the year 1646.
post #7435 of 7710

Nah. 

post #7436 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

The Boyega thing does dovetail neatly with something I've realized - both in the discussions here, and about internet culture generally - somehow, reading everything as a personal attack or affront is the first line of defense. It reminds me a lot of how Jessica Chastain quoted MLK, and someone pointed out that MLK was more radical than we expect, and she took it super personally. Not a good look. A lot of times, I don't actually see responses like this as a personal attack or someone's hang ups - a lot of times, it's a scholar or historian or someone who just knows about this shit because it's their culture using a celebrity tweet as an example/point for discussion. Is there a fair amount of THIS IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD? Yeah, but nobody takes that seriously. I know I have a tendency to read everything as a personal attack!!!! but I do think in cases like this or Chastain's, it's less a personal attack and more a "did you know?" filtered through the hype and gif machine that is Tumblr/Twitter. 

 

I can see how the Chastain thing is more of a comment on the comparison/perception than a personal attack, but criticizing how someone dances, on moral grounds?    How much more personal can you get?

post #7437 of 7710

I like to be as generous as possible with my hot takes. 

post #7438 of 7710

(next on the agenda... taking bets for what will happen when people on twitter try to get a response from Ridley)

post #7439 of 7710
Ridley: Rey would back that shit up.
post #7440 of 7710

Boyega is a South London working class boy. No chance he'd have any understanding or truck with this middle class whining hipster bullshit.

post #7441 of 7710

You have it on the record that those tweeting at him are all middle class, whining hipsters, then? Because that's not my experience at all when it comes to, again, using this stuff as teachable moments. 

post #7442 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Ridley: Rey would back that shit up.

no no no

 

not what SHE would do

 

because I'm sure she'd come to defend her friend and co-star

 

I'm talking about the backlash that would be directed towards her either nullified or enhanced by the fact that she's STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST #1 right now

post #7443 of 7710

I'd like to point out the irony of you guys discussing whining, as explained in this article: http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/31/criticising-john-boyegas-dancing-at-notting-hill-carnival-is-ignorant-af-6892885/

 

Quote:
It’s not just a high-pitched moan but is defined by our Caribbean dance experts as the thrusting or rotating of the pelvic girdle in a rhythmic pattern. In the context of Caribbean culture, whine is a genuine regional dance form. Think Rihanna and Drake in Work. 
post #7444 of 7710

We really need a law to go along with Godwin and CHUD's law to describe how fast a conversation can turn towards whether or not Rey is a Mary Sue.

 

She's not. 

post #7445 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I'd like to point out the irony of you guys discussing whining, as explained in this article: http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/31/criticising-john-boyegas-dancing-at-notting-hill-carnival-is-ignorant-af-6892885/

 

 

This article?

 

So good. 

post #7446 of 7710

hehehe the last line

post #7447 of 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

no no no

not what SHE would do

because I'm sure she'd come to defend her friend and co-star

I'm talking about the backlash that would be directed towards her either nullified or enhanced by the fact that she's STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST #1 right now

I'm just fooling. I have to refuse to seriously engage with this one. It's entirely too silly.
post #7448 of 7710

Cool. 

post #7449 of 7710

also because as far as I can tell, the only person complaining about Boyega's video is the one person being quoted repeatedly from the single tweet

 

everyone else in that thread makes fun of that person for it

 

there is no controversy

 

only the one that sites are trying to summon up by cloning the same take over and over

post #7450 of 7710

Jesus, what a stupid thing to get worked up about.

 

Seriously, what's the issue?

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