Game Of Thrones Season 2: Throne Harder SPOILER FREE - Page 22

The Hound's loyal to the Lannisters because they've been good to him and his family. He protects Joffrey because that's the specific duty he's been given. But I don't think he gives a shit about honour or nobility. He knows to keep his head down and follow orders, and not to cross powerful people; I think his experience with his brother taught him that. Joffrey is something similar to him, a guy who might treat you OK if you obey him and will fuck you up if you don't, and (as far as he's concerned) there are no other options. In a way he's just as trapped as Sansa, which is, I think, why they're linked together.

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

In a way he's just as trapped as Sansa, which is, I think, why they're linked together.

That pretty much nails it, I think.

Damn, True Blood is a monster. 

So, I think Cersei is lacking in development this season. Her drunken, vicious threats against Tyrion are getting tiresome. Remember those scenes in S1 where she schools Ned on the game of thrones and elaborates on her love for Jaime in E7? Or when she has a heart to heart with Robert about their failed marriage? Those were great scenes that made you reevaluate her character. She hasn't had anything like that this year. Hopefully we get one soon. 

That scene where she and Robert coolly look over the corpse of their marriage was one of the best in the series. 

I've come so far around on the Lannisters it's crazy.  Even Tywin, who I occasionally have to remind myself ordered The Mountain to slaughter villagers to send a message to Cat in the first season.  If it weren't for the Joffrey millstone around the family neck, they'd probably make perfectly good protectors of the realm.

I wouldn't say I "root" for the Lannisters. But the family as a whole has the most interesting characters to me.

Then again I don't think I really root for any of the sides on this show.

This isn't a book spoiler, but it is a speculative conclusion as to who stole Dany's dragons.  I'll leave this spoiler-marked for anyone who doesn't want to consider the possible culprits and would rather let the mystery unfold for themselves in the next episodes:

I'm assuming the Spice King conspired with the warlock and/or some of the rest of the 13 to steal the dragons.  When a show makes a point of talking about something like how he kept Dany waiting a long time before giving her the brush off, it's usually setting up something. 

And I don't like to meta-sleuth, cause it too often means I was successfully faked out, but there otherwise didn't seem much reason for showing the warlock interaction during the "previously on" segment if they weren't responsible for the dragon-napping. Other than "there are weird folk in Qarth."

This is why the Dany end of things is never as interesting as the stuff in Westeros for me.  There's so many more movers and shakers on that side, so if something like this happens there would be no end of suspects.  But over there, she's firmly our protagonist, and the supporting cast is so much less fleshed out that when they pop up they thuddingly functional compared to the intriguing herd of cats that is King's Landing.

About the only twist they could put on it is that Ducksauce set up the massacre/theft himself after deciding Dany wouldn't accept his proposal.

Uh....is that a REAL game you can play? Because if so...BONER!

Holy Shit! Give that game to me, and give it to me now!

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Originally Posted by BoatMan 

Ok, this episode definitely kicked ass. However, I have some bones to pick.

 

1) How many men could Theon possibly have had? 20 to 30 max? You're telling me that there were literally zero house guards in Winterfell. What is the peasant population of Winterfell, only 5 people? They couldn't fight back at all? Also dire wolves have been sold to us as these insanely effective killing machines, and there were TWO at Winterfell at the time. There's no way in any fantasy world he could have taken over. This reeks of, "necessary plot device". I expect more from this show.

 

After watching the last episode again I noticed something else that makes me compelled to bring this up again. What made Sir Rodrick come back to Winterfell? Being that he thought there was an attack on a village, he wouldn't have left his army and the battle without a reason. Did he get wind of the Greyjoy's advance? If so, wouldn't he have brought his 200 men back with him? Even if he wasn't entirely positive, I'm sure he would have come back with some fighters. Should have been enough to match Theon's paltry 20-30 men. And even still, if he was just coming back alone because he forgot his favorite shirt or something, being a master at arms and an experienced soldier and commander, would he have really tried to take on the entire fight himself? Wouldn't he have gotten his 200 men and tried to retake the castle? That way it would have been guaranteed.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I consider this a seriously big plot hole. I never read the books so I don't know if it's GRRM's lapse or the show runners, but this is some lazy and/or amateurish writing. I think this is definitely one of those times when maybe a battle scene would have been really helpful to the story. Just seeing everybody talking it out after the fact really didn't cut it. Again, not trying to nitpick, but this is the first time this show really made me stop and be like, "wait, what?"

I see your point, but I think you could assume once he found out about the ploy, he made a desperate attempt to reach the castle in time to save Bran and Rickon.

1 - I don't consider anyone the rightful heir to the throne. The person who deserves it is the one who can win the game. Of thrones.

2 - I agree with peeps saying Dany has gone from being cool and fun in the first season to being difficult to root for in the new one. A "strong woman character" who's good but whose strength is based in naivete in ignorance is less fun to me than a "strong woman character" whose strength is based in streetwise cunning and fierce intelligence. And/or being able to smash dudes with a sword. Having a magical hide and the coolest pets this side of Soccer Dog is nice, but not really that interesting in the larger scheme. Not yet anyway. The entitled brattiness is understandable but it's not easy to like, nor is it easy to respect. That's not to say I don't like her scenes though. For one, Iain Glen is ridiculously watchable, and for two, as with Joffrey, I can enjoy watching a character I dislike and don't respect just fine. There's still a ton of entertainment value there for me.

2 bonus extra clarifying paragraph - That's right, I did just say "strong woman" Dany's scenes are more watchable because of a man. I can sleep at night beause the "strong woman" likes of Cersei, Cat, Yara and Margaery are entirely watchable with or without any men around to prop them up. Don't shoot me with a crossbow for thinking the only out-and-out leader who's a female character in this world seems wildly unsuited to leadership, I'm just the messenger.

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Originally Posted by Deanburger 

I see your point, but I think you could assume once he found out about the ploy, he made a desperate attempt to reach the castle in time to save Bran and Rickon.

Pretty sure that was what happened. And as reckless as that seems, he was probably gambling on being able to do some stealth infiltration or reconnaissance. It's pretty clear the Greyjoy security isn't super-tight.

If people don't like Dany, that's their business, but this is exactly the kind of thing ambitious women tend to go through all the time in the real world. They have to push harder against condescension, which can be misinterpreted as kindness by others, leading to a "why's she being such a bitch?" reaction. Dany's really no more entitled than the Spice King, but she's coming from a position of weakness, so she has to try harder. That said, she's also groping in the dark to an extent...I mean, her leadership experience so far is with a culture where ripping out someone's tongue is an acceptable riposte in a debate.

I'm definitely baffled by people saying she's some kind of spoiled princess. She's literally had to fight or maneuver for everything she's got. She's continuing that tradition in a place where it may not work as well, that's all.

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

If people don't like Dany, that's their business, but this is exactly the kind of thing ambitious women tend to go through all the time in the real world. They have to push harder against condescension, which can be misinterpreted as kindness by others, leading to a "why's she being such a bitch?" reaction. Dany's really no more entitled than the Spice King, but she's coming from a position of weakness, so she has to try harder. That said, she's also groping in the dark to an extent...I mean, her leadership experience so far is with a culture where ripping out someone's tongue is an acceptable riposte in a debate.

 

I'm definitely baffled by people saying she's some kind of spoiled princess. She's literally had to fight or maneuver for everything she's got. She's continuing that tradition in a place where it may not work as well, that's all.

She has had to fight and maneuver for everything she's got. Except for the bit where she was born into aristocracy. And the bit where she was married off against her will and by pure accident on her part found herself allied to one of the most powerful hubbies a girl could ask for. And the bit where someone just gave her some dragon eggs.

That's why many have condescended to her. As they see it she hasn't earned jack. Her best move was convincing Drogo to respect her, which is what made her story entertaining in the first series, but to many warriors who found themselves "beneath" her when Drogo died she wasn't worthy of leadership. She had done nothing to prove herself worthy, certainly not from what we know of battle-tested Dothraki tradition. As for the leader of the Thirteen, I took it that he simply condescended to her because she was someone in a position of need and he was in a position of power, not because she doesn't have a Y chromosome.

I'm happy that that she's pushing back against all that condescension of course, but it doesn't make me feel that she's "right" to. It doesn't convince me that she's earned the respect she feels she's entitled to. It's hard not to feel like her people wouldn't actually be better off allied to a much more powerful tribe or under a more experienced leader rather than powerlessly straggling around after her.

Her aristocratic roots have done squat for her. In fact, her being a Targaryan has made the world a more dangerous place for her. She led her people in a blind gamble across the Red Waste, hoping to find somewhere safe for her dragons and her followers. She's playing a potentially strong, but currently shaky and weak hand in Quarth, and it's her blind determination that's gotten her this far. She got schooled by the Spice King, but it's lessons she needs to learn: right now, while her dragons are weak, she's playing a bluff. And she feels she has to. I think this next episode will show the 13 kings of Quarth that she's not fucking around, and it's not just wishes and hopes she's leaning on. She hasn't had a chance to prove her mettle, even though we (as viewers) know it's there.

Yeah, if anything it seems like being a Targaryen has obligated her to reconquer Westeros when otherwise she might be able to find somewhere quiet to settle down. Targaryen genes come with some kickass benefits like being fireproof, but in terms of political advantage she's had absolutely squat. And sure, someone gave her dragon eggs...which would have been pretty lumps of rock if Dany hadn't hatched them. Which, by the way, involved her gambling her life. Whatever political advantages she gained from Drogo have largely evaporated, she's now found herself starting from scratch on the other side of the world, having survived a brutal trek across the desert.

I agree she handled the Spice King badly, but she got slapped down for it. As for getting into Qarth...that was a matter of life or death. Keeping the dragons hidden may not have been the right move, but it did make a certain amount of sense, since that was basically the only thing she had up her sleeve. She makes mistakes, but she's able to learn, which is part of what makes her a potentially great ruler. People act like she's sitting on a velvet couch demanding things be brought to her. (Well, technically, she may be currently enjoying a velvet couch or two, but she could lose it at any minute...and, in fact, pretty much just did.)
 

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2012/05/-game-of-thrones-carice-van-houten-talks-life-as-red-priestess.html

I love her so much.

Note to self: get a job on the crew for GAME OF THRONES.

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Originally Posted by Greg Clark 

Her aristocratic roots have done squat for her. In fact, her being a Targaryan has made the world a more dangerous place for her. She led her people in a blind gamble across the Red Waste, hoping to find somewhere safe for her dragons and her followers. She's playing a potentially strong, but currently shaky and weak hand in Quarth, and it's her blind determination that's gotten her this far. She got schooled by the Spice King, but it's lessons she needs to learn: right now, while her dragons are weak, she's playing a bluff. And she feels she has to. I think this next episode will show the 13 kings of Quarth that she's not fucking around, and it's not just wishes and hopes she's leaning on. She hasn't had a chance to prove her mettle, even though we (as viewers) know it's there.

You smooth talking son of a bitch. You make a damn good argument.

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Yeah, if anything it seems like being a Targaryen has obligated her to reconquer Westeros when otherwise she might be able to find somewhere quiet to settle down. Targaryen genes come with some kickass benefits like being fireproof, but in terms of political advantage she's had absolutely squat. And sure, someone gave her dragon eggs...which would have been pretty lumps of rock if Dany hadn't hatched them. Which, by the way, involved her gambling her life. Whatever political advantages she gained from Drogo have largely evaporated, she's now found herself starting from scratch on the other side of the world, having survived a brutal trek across the desert.

 

I agree she handled the Spice King badly, but she got slapped down for it. As for getting into Qarth...that was a matter of life or death. Keeping the dragons hidden may not have been the right move, but it did make a certain amount of sense, since that was basically the only thing she had up her sleeve. She makes mistakes, but she's able to learn, which is part of what makes her a potentially great ruler. People act like she's sitting on a velvet couch demanding things be brought to her. (Well, technically, she may be currently enjoying a velvet couch or two, but she could lose it at any minute...and, in fact, pretty much just did.)
 

Well, I don't know Pranks, you're telling me "she's literally had to fight or maneuver for everything she's got" and I'm saying all she has left is magic skin and dragons, neither of which she fought or maneuvered for. When she walked into the fire it wasn't a gamble - she knew she was more fireproof than Kirk Cameron and she was convinced she would be the mother of the dragons. A point in her favour as a scrapper is that while she didn't have to fight or maneuver to earn her dragons she did at least fight to retain her dragons when the The Spice King had demanded them. In return for the lives of her people. Again it seemed she was saved by luck on that occasion when Xaro stepped in to save someone he seems to see as "a little girl".

Maybe I'm harder on Dany than others because I'd fallen so much in love with her at the end of last season, and I am sympathetic to the desperation of her situation and her plight, it's just that when I look at her next to most of the other characters (male and female) in season two she's more difficult to root for because moxy aside, she falls short on smarts and maturity and often seems more of a danger to her people than a help.

She had a strong suspicion that she would survive the fire--maybe--but wading into a slightly-too-hot bath and picking up some super-hot eggs are worlds apart from literally walking into a funeral pyre based only on dreams and intuition. I'm not even clear on whether prior Targaryens had been fireproof, to be honest--Dany might be one of a kind--and even if they had been, Viserys proved that it that particular aspect of their family biology may not have been as strong as it had been. I think there's a strong subtext in Dany's actions of "maybe this fire will hatch my dragons, and if it doesn't, I have no reason to live and I may as well go off to the Night Lands with my beloved." So yeah--I definitely think it's fair to say she earned those dragons through her actions, rather than simply having them "given" to her.

There's no denying she's been putting feet wrong all over the place. But again, I think she's in a position where she has to be forceful, not that she's a spoiled brat. She's had a certain amount of luck, but we all rely on that. We're talking about two episodes where she blustered a bit, it seems a bit harsh to criticize based on those.
 

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Originally Posted by Bucho 

 

I'm happy that that she's pushing back against all that condescension of course, but it doesn't make me feel that she's "right" to. It doesn't convince me that she's earned the respect she feels she's entitled to. It's hard not to feel like her people wouldn't actually be better off allied to a much more powerful tribe or under a more experienced leader rather than powerlessly straggling around after her.

Nice, I think this cuts to the heart of the matter.  The whole theme of this season has been to show how the "right to rule" does not relate to the whats good for the people.

Stannis was so selfish (or rigid, depending on your point of view) that he killed his brother despite Renly being the favorite of the general public.  Renly was the most pure-hearted, but arguably he was too naive to be an effective ruler (I get the feeling Varys and Littlefinger would have walked all over him).  Rob had that discussion a few episodes ago realizing that he had no idea how to rule but only craved vengeance. And now, Joffery got the point made directly with a cow pie to the face.  Not to mention Theon is practically digging his own grave.

The interesting thing is that Dany is kind of all of the above.  She has the righteous fury (perhaps misguided) driving her to "reclaim" her lost throne, but she also has the love and loyalty of her people.  She also has no idea what she is doing, but sometimes she reacts logically and sometimes her emotions get the better of her. 

So I'd say she has potential to be either a good ruler or a bad one.  While I agree that some of her scenes of late have really exposed her "bratty" side, I think that's sort of the point.  She is young and inexperienced; but the experiences that she goes through now will shape the type of ruler she will be.  It's part of her character arc; you don't have to like her all the time.

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Originally Posted by spaceloaf 

While I agree that some of her scenes of late have really exposed her "bratty" side, I think that's sort of the point.  She is young and inexperienced; but the experiences that she goes through now will shape the type of ruler she will be.  It's part of her character arc; you don't have to like her all the time.

This.

It would be boring if Dany rose out of the fire with her Dragons and just took over everything with ease.  She still has plenty of obstacles to overcome, the biggest being her own bullheadedness.

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Originally Posted by The Prankster 

She had a strong suspicion that she would survive the fire--maybe--but wading into a slightly-too-hot bath and picking up some super-hot eggs are worlds apart from literally walking into a funeral pyre based only on dreams and intuition. I'm not even clear on whether prior Targaryens had been fireproof, to be honest--Dany might be one of a kind--and even if they had been, Viserys proved that it that particular aspect of their family biology may not have been as strong as it had been. I think there's a strong subtext in Dany's actions of "maybe this fire will hatch my dragons, and if it doesn't, I have no reason to live and I may as well go off to the Night Lands with my beloved." So yeah--I definitely think it's fair to say she earned those dragons through her actions, rather than simply having them "given" to her.

 

There's no denying she's been putting feet wrong all over the place. But again, I think she's in a position where she has to be forceful, not that she's a spoiled brat. She's had a certain amount of luck, but we all rely on that. We're talking about two episodes where she blustered a bit, it seems a bit harsh to criticize based on those.
 

I think that's a fair reading. On its face the pyre scene is showing us how far Dany had come from being somebody who was completely subject to the whims of others to being somebody who's completely sure of herself and her destiny. When she walked into the fire she knew she would emerge as the Mother of Dragons. It was the completion of her first season journey from being the property of others to being her own person. To being metaphorically reborn. Her certainty is the point because her belief in her own destiny has become her most powerful defining characteristic.

But the new season has shown us in scenes with Jorah that she still has moments of doubt - that her belief in her destiny and her position as leader is not yet truly unshakable. The reason her wrong foot placement against The Spice King felt so stupid and annoyed many was that all The Thirteen had asked for was to see the dragons. Simply to see them. At that point the negatives of showing them the dragons seemed hugely in the shade compared to the negatives of not showing them. She wasn't in a position where she had to be forceful. She was in a position where she had to be diplomatic, and where diplomacy wasn't some complex game, but the only sensible option of a powerless leader of a starving tribe. She chose to be forceful when for herself and for the fate of her people not only was there zero reason to be, there was a very powerful reason not to be.

I'm not telling you anything you don't know here, I'm just laying out how it felt like the writers forced the character suddenly to act like a complete idiot - against any and all good sense - in order to manufacture tension at the gates of Qarth. That'll piss one or two fans off, especially if they're fans of Dany.

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Originally Posted by stelios 

GOT being based in a large part on Medieval Europe, the "right to rule" is pretty much a present and potent idea in this fictional world. It is not the vague concept it appears to us. It is not just words. In their world, and ours way back when, one's "right" holds just as big a significance as appeals to the constitution of the declaration of human rights does to us. The coat of arms of the British royal family still says "Dieu et mon droit". God and my right.

Sure, and to be clear on what I wrote about that above I was just saying it doesn't factor into who I root for. If I wanted Stannis or Dany to end up on the throne it wouldn't be because of their bloodline, even though for them that's a huge deal. I just meant that each character can believe what they want about what they deserve but that doesn't change what I think they deserve or how I judge their behaviour. In reality rights mean sweet f-all and steel and cunning (and, increasingly, magic) mean everything.

And how about that Arya/Tywin scene? How about that?

Great episode, but I wasn't too happy with Jaime's conversation with Catelyn in the end (though I loved his unflattering asides about Brienne), I felt his observations were too on the nose, to the point where I wondered if Jaime actually watched the show and was going cap off his observation with: "I just don't know how I felt about you in that episode, Cat. You were so mean!". Also, as a cliffhanger, propping up charred corpses that clearly aren't Bran and Rickon doesn't really work. 

Otherwise, I was really into it, and I've got to say, Jorah coming into frame looking all dirty and manly with the v-neck and his hand on the handle of his sheathed sword and what not, felt like so much visual innuendo that I couldn't help get a little giddy. "I'm ready for action, Khaleesi." Other than that, Jaime goes from awesome to motherfucker faster than any character I can recall at the moment, after being side-lined for most of this season Lena Headey is finally allowed to once again bring it as Cersei, and Sansa and her relationship with the Hound becomes more intriguing. I sometimes wonder if these moments of depth and introspection sometimes betray some of the more vicious characters, but hey, Hitler loved dogs and all that.

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Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny 
Also, as a cliffhanger, propping up charred corpses that clearly aren't Bran and Rickon doesn't really work. 

Yeah, but I doubt many people were fooled, but Alfie Allen really sold the shit out of that moment.  The charred corpses may or may not be Bran and Rickon, but they are still charred corpses of children being strung up on Theon's orders (this season really hates children).  I thought his 'oh shit what am I getting into' expression was the perfect cliffhanger. 

Also loved Cersei this week.  Some surprisingly tender moments with both Sansa and Tyrion.  

And also everything else.  Pyat Pree.  Damn.

In that sense it's a very effective dramatic moment for the character as opposed to a very "Tune in next week..." tease, even though it's structured to work like that too.  I never felt like I was meant to believe that Bran and Rickon are possibly among the deceased so much as I was literally begging to see more of a man's descent into a personal hell.  But you're right, they were probably hoping to tease a few less observant viewers too.

Cersei finally got a couple great scenes as I was hoping for, first with Sansa then with her brother. Their exchange about Joffrey was hilarious! 

Cersei: He looks like Jaime. 

Tyrion: ....

Cersei: ... in the right light. 

Tyrion: (nods)

As far as I'm concerned this is the Twyin & Arya show, and everyone else is just a guest star.

Benioff and Weiss deserve a lot of credit this season for giving us some truly fascinating characters with (compared to many series) limited screen time.  Theon, Tywin, Jaqen, etc., on top of MVPs like Tyrion and Arya.

Pyat Pree = What happens when Freddy Kruger vacations in Ibiza.

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Originally Posted by BlackyShimSham 

Cersei finally got a couple great scenes as I was hoping for, first with Sansa then with her brother. Their exchange about Joffrey was hilarious! 

 

Cersei: He looks like Jaime. 

Tyrion: ....

Cersei: ... in the right light. 

Tyrion: (nods)

 

As far as I'm concerned this is the Twyin & Arya show, and everyone else is just a guest star.

Oh, yeah, that was fantastic. Also, I'm really liking Ygritte. I don't know where they're going with her, but I'm definitely sold. A week or so ago a fangirl friend of mine went on about: "You know nothing Jon Snow." I guess it's a signature line of hers or something. I'm sure she's happy as a pig in shit about it making this episode. 

Not gonna lie, as a reader I did an embarrassingly loud bit of clapping at "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

You know, I can forgive Dany not making every decision perfectly and having some issues with entitlement given her background.  What I cannot forgive is her being mean to Jorah.  Jesus, woman,  what the hell else could you possibly want from this guy?

Speaking of Qarth, I loved the sickly wizard's power play. And I'm happy with Xaro's involvement in his scheme. 

I thought having the sole motivation for the only two black characters being the opportunity to fuck a white queen was a bit much. Xaro is playing a bigger game. Unfortunately he should have watched enough movies to know that when you saddle up with a crazy powerful villain, he usually turns on his second in command. I'm guessing only Dany, Jorah and a few dothraki make it out of the city alive (or conquer it entirely). Hopefully the little dragons team up to charcoal proto-Freddy. 

At first I thought the ending was just a weak cliffhanger, but an hour later it occurred to me that they went out of their way to remind us that they had sent 2 orphan boys from Winterfell to that keep recently.  Which suggests that Bran and Osha went to extremely dark lengths to throw Theon off the scent.

Damn, that was another awesome episode.  Tywin and Arya were great once again, Jamie finally returns in great form, and Theon is just digging deeper and deeper.  Can't wait for next week!

Too many highlights, even mostly without the Dinklage.

That Northern chick is saucy.

The battle of wits between Grandpa and little girl never gets old.

Getting the menses for the first time must be difficult enough without half the castle running into your room to check out the mess you left on your bed.

That scene with Jaime in prison was some stone cold-blooded shit right there.

I don't want the warlock dude dead yet. He brings the creep into the show like nothing else that isn't a shadow monster climbing out of a priestess' cooch.

They telegraphed that Jaime scene just a bit too much. Every time the squire inched forward, I was like "easy....."

Catelyn's "Gag him!" was the best line of the episode. No one talks shit like Jaime Lannister.

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Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny 


No, I think Theon' second in command (who's practically running Theon) made a decision w/out Theon's knowledge and the results have the kid in a complete state.

Yeah, it would be really out of character for Bran upon a little reflection.  I'm not sold on Finchy being behind it, as I don't think the show would remove that responsibility for that move from Theon himself at this point.  It was probably Theon, although it's an extremely short-term way for him to look crueler rather than weaker if that is the case.

Loved the stuff in Qarth this week, even if it distresses me when Dany gets short with Jorah.

Theon did say to Luhwin "do you think there's anything I wouldn't do to stop that from happening?" 

My guess is he killed the little orphans himself. Although that would be ghastly, even for this show, if the half-wit, the cripple, the little one, and the wilding woman chopped up and roasted the boys themselves. 

I would also like to point out Bolton for a moment. The way he eye-balled Robb's nurse was skin-crawling. He was also quick to once again point out how many prisoners they had. He's really itching so start executing Lannisters.