Game Of Thrones Season 2: Throne Harder SPOILER FREE - Page 26

I'm with Schwartz, we don't really need some big reveal about Jon's Heritage Of Destiny. That's been done as well as it's ever gonna.

 

"There is no escape! Don't make me destroy you. Jon Snow, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your power! Join me, and I will complete your training! With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the Seven Kingdoms."

 

"I'll never join you!"

 

"If only you knew the power of the [Lannisters/Targaryens/Fire God/White Walkers/Warlocks/One Ring/Reapers/Chitauri]. ...Ned never told you what happened to your mother."

 

"He didn't tell me shit!"

 

"I am your mother!"

 

"No. No! That's not true! That's impossible!"

 

"Search your feelings, you know it to be true!"

 

"But we've been sleeping together for months! NOOOOOOOOOO!"

 

[And a mild reminder to the book readers, please be careful. Now I know that you don't know, which tells me a lot about the far future of the series and a few ideas on who's probably still alive, or at least still relevant. I hate to say it, but there's some subjects with the show that y'all probably just need to stay out of the conversation, at least in this thread. I feel like I have to keep notes on who's read the books and who hasn't, because the former may, though well meaning, "confirm" what for me what was still speculative. I'm trying not to be a mewling quim about it, though, cause nobody's been a jerk, at all.]

I wouldn't put it past the show to start deviating from the books more dramatically at some point. Since George Martin is involved with the show he would know whether the changes fuck with the endgame or not.

 

Yeah, this.  I think he actually wants to do some course correcting; maybe smooth out some of the stuff that didn't quite work on the page when he started this beast 15 years ago.

Since we don't have an all-purpose Dinklage thread (which btw, HOW?), thought I'd drop this amusing account of the man himself teaming up with a shirtlesss John Hodgman for an annual "Scrabble For Cheaters" event.

Something shocking: Theon is this year's Ned. I thought it would be Tyrion for sure as the main character, but I think Season 2 belongs to Prince Greyjoy. His arc is the most complete and well-rounded (maybe even compelling), it seems he has garnered the most screentime, and his tragic series of missteps mirrors Daddy Stark. I sort of love that. Alfie Allen is handling it like a champ, too. I never thought Theon would become the bloody heart and wounded soul of the show, but at this point and time I would say he certainly is. 

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Yeah, I think some folks who've read the non-existant books can drop spoilers not out of being a dick but just out of pure love and enthusiasm for the story even when they're trying to be careful. Even on the Cast Of Kings podcast they've slipped with things like Joanna saying she's happy to see a new character on the show because that's a character who has a great arc in the books. Now I know that character isn't about to die - in a series which has made it clear that anyone can be about to die.

 

That they might deviate from the books isn't enough to justify any kind of spoiler. Again, in this thread, only post as if the books don't exist. Set your knowledge of them aside for the other thread.

It is interesting to think about. Ned made all the wrong choices for the right reasons, while Theon's making all the wrong choices for...well...NOT so right reasons. 

And how many "SHATTERING" reveals have we had so far in the show?  Why would this one be the straw that broke the camel's back?

I like your points about Theon's story Blacky but he's such a sidelined and unregarded character and he's so far out to the fringes of the various hearts of power he feels almost like an afterthought to me. I agree about Alfie Allen doing good work and I'm sympathetic to Theon but of all the adult characters in Game Of Thrones he seems the least likely (and the least able) to do anything of consequence.

 

In a show all about power I can't see a character as powerless as Theon as being the heart of it. In contrast Ned had been drawn into the eye of the power storm at King's Landing and felt constantly like he was battling with a power he didn't want. In the end his power was seen as such a threat to others that it cost him his head. If anything feels like it's going to cost Theon his head I daresay it's his impotence.

 

As it stands I just don't feel like there is a main character anymore. Tyrion is still everyone's fave but he's not the central force in the story like Ned was. I think the show is doing just dandy without one.

It's more the inverse.  How many times has the show flat out TOLD us something about a character and then revealed it to be an elaborate lie?  It does "reveals" by showing us things we didn't know (be it about the world or the characters), not by telling us something then telling us that it wasn't true.

 

Look at the twist/reveals in Theon's storyline.  They revealed that Theon had a sister, and that his father was even more embittered than he realized, and that Theon was damaged enough to actually turn against the Starks.  They pulled back gradually and filled in blanks to continually surprise us.  They didn't tell us that his father had killed in the rebellion and he always thought he was an only child, then WHOAPSYCHTWIST!!!

Yeah, Theon has had a good year, but he ain't the heart of anything. If there's a lead, and I'd say there kind of is, it's tyrion. He's the audience identification character, if for no other reason than what the audience wants more than anything is to slap Joffrey.

 

Sorry...it's just SO damn cathartic...

I never get sick of that video.

 

Even though the show is very much an ensemble, there's something about it that feels like it's Jon Snow's story to me. 

 

Or Jon and Dany's. Ice and Fire?

 

Speaking of ice, even though there are no Lannisters beyond The Wall I love the scenes up there just because of the landscape and the neverending golden hour. Just like New Zealand got mad scenery props from LOTR a decade ago I'm rock hard for Iceland right now.

I can see that, although Jon has never been near the top of my favorites list, mostly because his storyline has stayed the closest to a conventional fantasy Hero's Journey.  Sort of like Dany, the disconnectedness of his storyline have kept him from clashing with other well developed, sympathetic characters.  There's no conflicting loyalties in the battle between our boy and an ice zombie (or Craster, for that matter).  That might be changing as the wildlings become less the faceless savage threat and are depicted as more civilized (and pretty) than he/we were initially led to believe, but it's easy for him to feel like the hero of the show when the rest of it works so hard to resist breaking down into anything simple as a conflict of Hero vs. Villain.

Jon is as isolated as Dany, really. There's no real chance of Ambassador Littlefinger showing up for a powwow on the Fist of the First Man.

 

I would LOVE to see some of those characters make their way up to the wall. It seems like once the White Walker threat materializes that would be inevitable, wouldn't it?  It would seem silly after all this "Winter is Coming" nonsense that this threat from the North never affects the lives of the Southern characters in Westeros. That would be the ultimate Chekhov's gun.

 

Would be hilarious if he did, though.

For me personally, White Walkers are the least interesting part of the show so far. I love the Night's Watch and all the characters therein, and I think devoting a storyline to a group of people selflessly fighting some larger purpose other than selfishly scheming and politicking is very smart. But the WW pose this massive existential threat to the world that I find distracting. I mean, I feel like I would prefer it if Jon and his men were trying to procure medicine for the plague while battling resistance from a wildling army or something. I'm apprehensive about how they factor into the story (and in particular the endgame). Mance Raydar, the King Beyond the Wall, that's interesting, because I assume he seeks power like all the other characters and will be another player, with an army. But the Walkers, eh... they don't do much for me at the moment. 

I think the White Walkers story has lots of potential. Here we have all these human kings fighting over who sits on a throne, yet there's this thousands year old threat lurking at the gates of the wall that doesn't care for their petty games and battles for crowns. Just having the threat there, and knowing nobody is paying attention to it when they should unite to fight it, has some interesting story potential. I like that there's all this contained magic just waiting to explode, in a world that has either forgotten or restricted magic one way or the other, and that there's a horde of being with a mysterious purpose about to shatter that view. 

It is a bit annoying that we've only had one tiny glimpse of the White Walkers since the pilot, but I think that's on purpose.  We're supposed to disregard them as much as everyone in this world does.  There's a reason they opened the series with it though, they are the real threat.

Can someone clear this up if the answer isn't a spoiler:

 

Are White Walkers Wights themselves, or are they a mythical species that runs around creating Wights?

I've spent the past few days reading over this thread and it's been really cool to have found an intelligent discussion about my favorite show (currently on TV) that respects the spoiler boundaries. You might be surprised by how many people elsewhere on the web baulk at the idea that 'spoilers' could exist for a show based on a series of novels that began publication in the early 90s. I've got some thoughts of my own about the series I could share, but at this point I'd mostly be echoing what's already been said and you seem to have a pretty tight knit group here. In the mean time though I wanted to say thanks for this first rate thread, it's been a blast to go through.

 

But I think Ned being the central character was really just an elaborate plan to turn our expectations on their ears.  In a way it's like No Country For Old Men, where the issue as the viewer is that we've identified the protagonist that we relate to the most and that can be used against us.  Nobody is the central force of the story because that would actually detract from the game.  We can all have our favorites, but we've also all been served notice that anybody can be killed off at any time, and the story isn't focused on any one individual.

 

 

By all means, please weigh in with opinions on the show.  The last thing this place needs is people feeling like we're a group that doesn't need new opinions and too insulated to want new viewpoints.  Plus you've already shown yourself to be thoughtful and well spoken and we can never have enough of that.  Hopefully we see some thoughts from you after Sunday's episode (before all of us go crazy discussing things and you feel like you'd just be echoing).

The White Walkers, from what I take it, create the zombies, who then bend to their will, like a puppet. There's a reason that one Wight went directly for the Lord Commander instead of just shuffling around going "braaaaains." They have a purpose, which makes them way more dangerous than you're average zombie. Plus head shots are no good, it takes fire and/or dismemberment. Kind of like how you kill Evil Dead zombies! 

 

And ya know, I just thought of something: according to that one meme, if Robb Stark is Obama, does that make Lord Bolton (Mr. "A flayed man has no secrets" and Senor "The high road's pretty but you'll have a hard time leading your men down it") Rahm Emanuel?  

 

Its like The Wire.  The main character is the Realm!

It's all in the Game.

Littlefinger is Carcetti.

Waaaait a minute...

 

Actually, Littlefinger would be more like Clay Davis.

"Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite."

Theon thinks he's Marlo, but he's hopefully about to be Cheese.

That's perfect. And Marlo, of course, would be Joffrey. Which makes Chris and Snoop the Mountain and the Hound. 

I like that the White Walkers are a still a mystery at this point too. The anticipation of what's going to happen when the white shit hits the black fan, so to speak, is so hawt. I'm not done with the foreplay yet.

 

 

 

 

I'll buy that for a dollar.

 

 

 

 

Don't hold back Doc, get amongst it if you feel like it.

I think the show has made it pretty clear from a visual standpoint that the undead wildlings are different than the White Walkers.  I think that's why Ygritte wanted the Night Watch to burn the bodies, so they couldn't be used as assassins by the Walkers.  It makes you wonder how many White Walkers are out there, because if they can just summon an army like that, they wouldn't really have to get in the fight at all.

It reminds me of that rant that one General went on in "World War Z" about how fighting zombies is unlike fighting any other enemy. In any other war, you lose soldiers. In a war against zombies, the soldiers you lose become soldiers for the other side. Of course, the situation with the White Walkers is even MORE deadly because there's actual mysterious intelligence leading them. 

Well shucks, it's great to be welcomed into the fold. I'm definitely excited for this Sunday's new installment, as well as the Neil Marshal helmed episode we've got coming up. I guess for now I'll just say that other than Luck, this is the first show I've watched on an episode by episode basis in almost five years. Mostly that's a function of currently having an HBO subscription and being unable to wait for the Season 2 DVD release, but it also owes to the fact I love this universe and these characters. I am intrigued by the mythology and look forward to Sunday nights because it means I'll get to stop in and visit the world of Westeros for another hour.

If I had one complaint, it would be the sometimes harried pacing necessitated by the amount of material they're trying to cover. The show is interesting enough that I'd love to have a chance for the characters and story to catch their breath. For the narrative at times to slow down to something approaching the languid, mysterious rhythm of Carnivale or the ever building tension of Deadwood. The first season in particular gave me the impression that it was a bit of a mad scramble behind the scenes to get through these novels in just ten episodes. The Wire had a 13 episode first season, and for shows like Deadwood or more recently Boardwalk Empire, 12 episodes had been the norm for the network. I'd hate to think the show runners were being forced to compromise  because of HBO capping seasons at 10 episodes for financial rather than creative reasons. With Luck having met an untimely end,  nothing else on TV comes close to what they're doing on this show. I just wish HBO would have some faith that the audience will stay interested even if the show isn't constantly barrelling towards it's next battle, betrayal or change of scenery. I'm glad to hear that with Season 3 they'll be scaling back their ambitions and tackling the first half of the book only.

Of course now we're in the back half of Season Two and the mayhem is entirely appropriate and speaking for myself, very much anticipated. Good luck to Cersei and her fire based defense plan. I have a feeling she'll need it! Oh, and I don't think I'd really ever spent much time thinking about the implications of the white walker zombie threat before this thread referenced World War Z. I'd sort of briefly noted the fact the creature from the opening episode didn't appear to be a zombie like the the blue eyed dead person that attacked Castle Black, but I'd not really focused on it since no clear answers were forthcoming. Spending resources and manpower on this 'War of the Five Kings' seems like a spectacularly wasteful expenditure with winter just around the corner.
Edited by Dr Harford - 5/17/12 at 4:59pm

Is this season covering the entire second book (that doesn't exist?)

 

Hypothetically, close - but not exactly. Hypothetically, of course.

 

It was my understanding(or assumption) that the budget for the season was what it would be for a typical 12-13 episode run on HBO, but that the producers chose to only make 10 eps. So by raising the per episode budget that allows them more resources to give this series the scale, talent and effects needed. I'm sure HBO would love to be getting 12-13 episode seasons to keep subscribers for an extra month and to justify a higher price tag on the DVD's.

 

I have to say I cannot wait to watch these again next year when the Bluray set comes out. This series has really expanded the scope this year and it's beautiful.   

All new HBO shows since the premiere of GOT appears to follow the 10 episode season format: Luck, Girls, Veep. It seems to fit HBO's new scheduling model - and the GOT production has said it would be very hard for them to produce more than 10 episodes per year. The quality would suffer.

 

Sure looks like it, aside from incidental stuff that's been trimmed. Bits of the second book actually showed up in last season's finale, and there's stuff from book three I suspect we'll see before this season's over. There's ONE element of book two that looks like it's being held over til next season, but that's more of a flat-out change than a pacing thing.

You could say that for just about every other magical element in this story. If all of that is omitted it would still be a fascinating story/show to me. Maybe even better. I have no qualms about the white walkers though. I like the fact that some really crazy shit is brewing north of the wall that'll affect everyone in this world despite the crazy shit happening at this moment.

I guess if you had to choose then Marlo would be Joffrey even though Joff is 100x more batshit crazy than Marlo would ever be. And I'd assume that leaves Stringer as Tyrion. Too fuckin smart for his own good, trying to do too much shit, and of course charismatic. Let's see if Tyrion's fate parallels that of String

 

Thanks for this information, it helps explain things. Can't blame me for wanting a longer season though! McIrish, when it comes to the budget, it's just worth mentioning that Rome's was 50% higher than what they allotted to the production of Game of Thrones season one.

 

I've been rewatching season one off and on to pass the time, and last evening I went back and saw the excellent Ned/Jamie face off from episode five "A Crown for a King". I wish we'd gotten to see how that played out, as it seemed like the opponents were equally matched (going by the excited and bemused expression on the Kingslayer's face before his guard prematurely wrapped things up). Will Jamie ever again get a chance to test his mettle against a worthy opponent? Rob Stark, perhaps? He straight up challenged Stark to a fight at the end of the first season. Hopefully one day we'll see that conflict played out to it's ultimate conclusion.

Edited by Dr Harford - 5/18/12 at 10:57am

Looking back on season 1, there's a couple of choice bits from Theon, most notably that when Osha is introduced, it's him saving Bran's life from her.  But I also like the little moment where Jaime mentions the Greyjoy boy to Jory, who says "Theon, aye.  He's a good lad."  To which Jaime replies, with pointed disdain, "I doubt that."  

 

Coster-Waldau is so good in the role, it's a shame the story has kept him tied to a post all year.

As I've rewatched the first season, it's occured to me that many people were never particularly nice to Theon. His betrayal may offend the audience, since we identify with the Starks, and I won't argue that Theon himself is a fairly pathetic figure, but at the same time it's important to remember there were plenty of people around him in the Stark household always ready to point out that he was not a member of the family, ready to cast aspersions on his origins. He's gone down a dark path and there is no redemption forthcoming, but his betrayal, such as it was, should not have been entirely unexpected. He saves Bran's life, and Rob still scowls at him and brushes him off.

 

And I love Coster-Waldau on this show. He's got incredible charisma, and I think Jamie Lannister is one of the most interesting characters on the Game of Thrones. Perhaps my favorite character, actually, after Tyrion at least.

 

Some mild very general spoilers based on an interview with Coster-Waldau in Entertainment Weekly, regarding his character having a reduced presence this season:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)