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Game Of Thrones Season 2: Throne Harder SPOILER FREE - Page 37

post #1801 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasRon View Post

Tywin Lannister? The guy who unleashed The Mountain  and Armory Lorch on the peasents of Westeros? He is empathetic to nobody(you don't need to look any further than his relationship with his own flesh and blood) and doesn't have a moral bone in his body.

I, uh, hmmm. Wha?
post #1802 of 2123
To resurrect an earlier debate, I think Joffrey setup the hit on Tyrion. Why? Because it's stupid and impulsive and because Cersei already pulled the "fuck with Tyrion" card by holding his "lady" hostage. Joffrey's been humiliated by Tyrion so many times that this feels like the retalliation, which in turn feels like the failed assassination of Bran in S1. This shit has Joffrey's stink all over it.
post #1803 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post


I, uh, hmmm. Wha?

 

Last season, as a prelude to war after Tyrion was seized, Tywin had the older Clegane rape and pillage across the Riverlands to provoke Ned, who was acting regent, in effect, during Robert's absence. He led the sacking of King's Landing and ordered the murder of the Targaryen children, one of whom was a baby. He also had two rebellious houses, the Reynes and the Tarbecks, wiped out to the last child after putting down their rebellion. Not to mention what he does with Tyrion's wife, though some seem to have rationalized that to the high heavens in this thread.

 

Thousands of deaths vs. one act of fratricide. I'll take Stannis, all day and all night. Tywin is more charismatic, but far more cruel. Let's not romanticize Tywin too much because he's had some great scenes with Arya.


Edited by VegasRon - 5/31/12 at 4:57pm
post #1804 of 2123
Holy Shit. Melisandre told Matthos that death by fire is the purest death. She knew what was going to go down didn't she?
post #1805 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasRon View Post

 

Last season, as a prelude to war after Tyrion was seized, Tywin had the older Clegane rape and pillage across the Riverlands to provoke Ned, who was acting regent, in effect, after robert's death. He led the sacking of King's Landing and ordered the murder of the Targaryen children, one of whom was a baby. He also had two rebellious houses, the Reynes and the Tarbecks, wiped out to the last child after putting down their rebellion. Not to mention what he does with Tyrion's wife, though some seem to have rationalized that to the high heavens in this thread.

 

Thousands of deaths vs. one act of fratricide. I'll take Stannis, all day and all night. Tywin is more charismatic, but far more cruel. Let's not romanticize Tywin too much because he's had some great scenes with Arya.

 

 

Fair enough, but if you'll reexamine my post, I'm definitely talking about Tyrion, and not Tywin. I'm pretty sure.

post #1806 of 2123

Well fuck me sideways, in the post I originally quoted, you were talking about Tyrion. My apologies. biggrin.gif
 

post #1807 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Holy Shit. Melisandre told Matthos that death by fire is the purest death. She knew what was going to go down didn't she?

 

Interesting.  If that's the case, I can just imagine how her conversation with Stannis went before the battle:

 

"Hey, listen Melisandre... Davos and some of the men have expressed... concern about your influence over me.  I think you should sit this one out, just to allay their fears."

"Oh?  That's fine."

"Really?  I thought you'd be more upset with me."

"Nope, perfectly fine.  Have a good time.  Try and stay cool.  Tell Davos and Matthos I say hi."

post #1808 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasRon View Post

 

Last season, as a prelude to war after Tyrion was seized, Tywin had the older Clegane rape and pillage across the Riverlands to provoke Ned, who was acting regent, in effect, after robert's death. He led the sacking of King's Landing and ordered the murder of the Targaryen children, one of whom was a baby. He also had two rebellious houses, the Reynes and the Tarbecks, wiped out to the last child after putting down their rebellion. Not to mention what he does with Tyrion's wife, though some seem to have rationalized that to the high heavens in this thread.

 

Thousands of deaths vs. one act of fratricide. I'll take Stannis, all day and all night. Tywin is more charismatic, but far more cruel. Let's not romanticize Tywin too much because he's had some great scenes with Arya.

 

 

A lot of this hasn't been in the show.  Remember the rules.

post #1809 of 2123

I have not read the books, but I did use the Complete Guide to Westeros on the Blu/DVD to make a few points (including Tywin's conduct during the rebellion).  I consider that fair game, since it was on the S1 release.

 

It is in the past, not the future, so somewhat relevant to theoretical discussions of the future.

post #1810 of 2123

But I'll knock that off, if the thread prefers.  I'm trying to stay as away from spoilers as possible myself.

post #1811 of 2123
Thread Starter 

It wasn't spelled out but Ned did give an order for Clegane for sure and I think Tywin to be arrested and brought to King's Landing.

post #1812 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

 

It's not about religious fanaticism (he does seem to have a pragmatic approach to that), but the refusal to yield or change course at all.  To murder his brother rather than negotiate with him.  To fight the Lannisters and Starks rather than broker the type of peace that both his brothers had in place with the North.  His word is law and there will be no compromise, even before he actually had the throne to sit on.  A king who will not bend will break, and I have the suspicion that he would've broken a lot of the kingdom along with himself.


Ah, I get what you're saying. I was reading "pragmatic" in the "ends justify the means" sense, not pragmatic in that he'd ever recognize there may be better ends to be won. However, I do think (to repeat myself) that Stannis' relationship with Davos has shown that he can take counsel, if given well.

 

That's not to say he'd be any better a king than the rest of these bastards.

post #1813 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

It wasn't spelled out but Ned did give an order for Clegane for sure and I think Tywin to be arrested and brought to King's Landing.

 

That part was spelled out (although one of the posters above said that it was given after Robert died, which was not the case).  It's all the further backstory about the rebellion and whatnot that I don't want to get into.  It just invites people to start clarifying things from the books, which gets things on the wrong track.

post #1814 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieFerguson View Post

 

Interesting.  If that's the case, I can just imagine how her conversation with Stannis went before the battle:

 

"Hey, listen Melisandre... Davos and some of the men have expressed... concern about your influence over me.  I think you should sit this one out, just to allay their fears."

"Oh?  That's fine."

"Really?  I thought you'd be more upset with me."

"Nope, perfectly fine.  Have a good time.  Try and stay cool.  Tell Davos and Matthos I say hi."

One consequence of this battle will DEFINITELY be Stannis abandoning all thought of NOT fully embracing Melisandre and her dark powers. If she KNEW the battle would go this way, and that the outcome would make Stannis think he'll never win without her, then she is playing one hell of a long game. She's just as much a schemer as Varys and Littlefinger. 

post #1815 of 2123

post #1816 of 2123
Thread Starter 

Tilt your fucking phones sideways when shooting video. For fuck's sake.

post #1817 of 2123

Personally I'm thinking the battle would have gone different had Melisandre been present. Hell, she seems to have secret powers with regards to fire, so had she been there for all we know she could have turned that wildfire right around and directed it like a missile at the castle wall.

post #1818 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Turner View Post

Personally I'm thinking the battle would have gone different had Melisandre been present. Hell, she seems to have secret powers with regards to fire, so had she been there for all we know she could have turned that wildfire right around and directed it like a missile at the castle wall.

 

All indications seem to be that Game of Thrones magic is a lot more methodical and ritual-intensive. A Harry Potter redirect doesn't really fit in with the GoT universe.

post #1819 of 2123

Yeah, there's no indication that Melisandre could have done that.  Even the shadow assassin, arguably her most powerful display so far, took some time.

post #1820 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

 

 

A lot of this hasn't been in the show.  Remember the rules.

Oh yeah? Point out what, exactly, hasn't been.

post #1821 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

It wasn't spelled out but Ned did give an order for Clegane for sure and I think Tywin to be arrested and brought to King's Landing.


It actually WAS spelled out. Or said out loud, I should say.

 

Beric Dondarrion anyone?

post #1822 of 2123

The wording was something like 'and then Tywin Lannister will be expected to answer for his bannerman, within the month'.

 

That's just the show. No idea if it's in the books or whatever.

post #1823 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasRon View Post

Oh yeah? Point out what, exactly, hasn't been.

 

Anything about Tywin's role in the rebellion beyond marrying his daughter to Robert. 

post #1824 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasRon View Post


It actually WAS spelled out. Or said out loud, I should say.

 

Beric Dondarrion anyone?

 

That's not who that was and you're being a bit of a dick. 

post #1825 of 2123

That was Beric Dondarrion who Ned sends to get the Mountain in Season 1.

post #1826 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyEyes View Post

That was Beric Dondarrion who Ned sends to get the Mountain in Season 1.

 

Really, that's confirmed by the show? I remember the scene, but not that they specifically stated it was him.

post #1827 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post

 

Really, that's confirmed by the show? I remember the scene, but not that they specifically stated it was him.

 

2:17

 

post #1828 of 2123

Good ol' dumbass Ned.

post #1829 of 2123

Well I'll be got-damn.

post #1830 of 2123

Burn!  Ring the bell, school is in session!  ;)

post #1831 of 2123

Damn Ned was a boss.

 

"How come Robert is King, and not Tywin Lannister?"

 

I would have loved to see Ned and Tywin in the same room.

post #1832 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 View Post

Good ol' dumbass Ned.

I miss the big dummy.  Show is still great but his presence is missed.  Though Robb has inherited his bad decision making skills outside the battlefield. 

 

Would have loved to see him fight more.

post #1833 of 2123

I can't help but feel that Ned and house Stark in general would've been REALLY well suited to fight the White Walkers. Political intrigue? Not his game. Ice Zombie monsters? Hey, that's uncomplicated! I can do this!

 

Mark my words, the Lannisters are going to regret killing Ned and making enemies of house Stark. 

post #1834 of 2123

Absolutely.  We spend a lot of time calling Ned oblivious or stupid because he was an honest, decent man (subject to the times, mind you) unsuited to the intrigue of the Summer Court.  But he didn't live there.  He didn't want to be there.  He is a Winter King, where intrigue gets lots of people killed and honesty and honor saves lives.  He is a product of where he was born and ruled.  So is his family.  And, at some point, the dearth of honor and hardness is going to cost the Seven Kingdoms something fierce.

post #1835 of 2123
post #1836 of 2123

Wow.  That is a smart and aware young man.  Very impressive.

post #1837 of 2123

HE'S TWENTY?!

post #1838 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syd View Post

I can't help but feel that Ned and house Stark in general would've been REALLY well suited to fight the White Walkers. Political intrigue? Not his game. Ice Zombie monsters? Hey, that's uncomplicated! I can do this!

 

Mark my words, the Lannisters are going to regret killing Ned and making enemies of house Stark. 

 

Robb: "Hey, Ice Zombie Monsters. Leave the North alone, and the South is a-a-a-a-allllll yours. Deal? Cool, take the King's Road, you'll be there in no time."

post #1839 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trav McGee View Post

 

Robb: "Hey, Ice Zombie Monsters. Leave the North alone, and the South is a-a-a-a-allllll yours. Deal? Cool, take the King's Road, you'll be there in no time."

 

 

White Walkers: "Thanks, but we'd rather just have both. Gobble, gobble."

post #1840 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

 

Anything about Tywin's role in the rebellion beyond marrying his daughter to Robert. 

 



You're wrong.

post #1841 of 2123

And you're kind of a dick.  What say we call it even.

post #1842 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyQuinn22 View Post

Good ol' dumbass Ned.

 

I'd call that Ned's shining moment (even the silly exposition from Littlefinger, on rewatch, comes off more as him trying to needle Ned and Ned thinking "Yes, I KNOW, shut UP.") He does the right thing, and for once it's not a bad move. He couldn't really piss off the Lannisters more than he already had at this point. If things hadn't gone south so fast this might have effectively taken the Mountain off the table, which probably would have been best for everyone except the Lannisters. 

post #1843 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasRon View Post

 



You're wrong.

 

They might have had some stuff about the rebellion in the Blu-Ray special features, but no, they haven't gone into any explicit detail about this on the show, which means you should respect people's wishes and not discuss it. It doesn't matter if it's a minor point. At the very least, you should drop it behind a spoiler wall, as I've done a few times with backstory discussion, so that if people want to "spoil" themselves a little they can but they don't HAVE to. There's a whole other thread for spoilers.

 

Honestly, I kinda feel that the show has been a bit clunky in doling out the backstory. There have been a few moments where something might have had more weight if the history behind it was set up earlier. Like Robb's being declared King in the North, which sort of came out of nowhere; I think that scene would have been even cooler if they'd established that...(Um, SPOILERS I guess if you consider the Blu-Ray backstory stuff to be off-limits, and even then I think they have mentioned it on the show, but I'll play it uber-safe:)

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

...The Starks were Kings in the North since time immemorial before the Targaryens came, so this is just a reversion to the status quo...

 

...substantially beforehand. Nevertheless, it's assholish to blurt out stuff that hasn't been established, even if you don't think it matters much. I mean, like I say, I'm sometimes tempted to drop backstory because I feel like the show isn't handling it well enough and it generally doesn't matter in the sense of being about stuff that's GOING to happen, just stuff that HAS happened. But still, if people want to go based entirely on the show, it's only fair. It doesn't cost you anything to be courteous. And talking too much about stuff from the books does, as Schwartz said, steer things in dangerous directions.

post #1844 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

 

I'd call that Ned's shining moment (even the silly exposition from Littlefinger, on rewatch, comes off more as him trying to needle Ned and Ned thinking "Yes, I KNOW, shut UP.") He does the right thing, and for once it's not a bad move. He couldn't really piss off the Lannisters more than he already had at this point. If things hadn't gone south so fast this might have effectively taken the Mountain off the table, which probably would have been best for everyone except the Lannisters. 

 

Yep, one of my favorite moments from the first season, and pretty damned crafty of Ned, I'd say, under the guise of his usual hardliner honor. Ned's also doing what he can, again, to take the heat off his wife as much as possible and put it on himself. Until the deus ex pig took Robert off the table, I was looking forward to seeing his reaction to this maneuver.

 

ETA: Book prehistory may not be spoiling future show episodes, but it does spoil the books, which some few of us would like to discover for ourselves once the show's run is over. Personally, I'm okay with stuff from blu-ray extras from season 1, cause I devoured all that shit, but probably best to spoiler tag those anyway.

post #1845 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trav McGee View Post

 

Yep, one of my favorite moments from the first season, and pretty damned crafty of Ned, I'd say, under the guise of his usual hardliner honor. Ned's also doing what he can, again, to take the heat off his wife as much as possible and put it on himself. Until the deus ex pig took Robert off the table, I was looking forward to seeing his reaction to this maneuver.

 

ETA: Book prehistory may not be spoiling future show episodes, but it does spoil the books, which some few of us would like to discover for ourselves once the show's run is over. Personally, I'm okay with stuff from blu-ray extras from season 1, cause I devoured all that shit, but probably best to spoiler tag those anyway.

 

Was the pig really deus ex? I don't remember what i've read and what I've watched, so I thought it was implied that

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

Robert might have recovered if Cersei hadn't ordered the wound to be helped along? Maybe I'm making this up.

 

post #1846 of 2123

Varys really strongly implied that the Lannisters helped him get gored. But really, I feel like the Lannisters and the boar are both beside the point, more bad timing than anything. Robert had a death wish. It's one of the first things he says in the series, in fact.
 

post #1847 of 2123

I guess I can bring this up but it's heavily implied (in the book at least) that Lorrell or Lorren or whatever his tits gave Robert VERY strong wine during the hunt, essentially ensuring that a boar hunting accident would happen.  Sorry if that's spoilerish, I'll take it down if need be but we're well past that point so who gives a shit.

post #1848 of 2123

The show definitely implied that wine boy may have had something to do with it.  I'm not sure why though, because Robert was nothing but nice to the kid.

post #1849 of 2123
Quote:
Originally Posted by First Class 782 View Post

Absolutely.  We spend a lot of time calling Ned oblivious or stupid because he was an honest, decent man (subject to the times, mind you) unsuited to the intrigue of the Summer Court.  But he didn't live there.  He didn't want to be there.  He is a Winter King, where intrigue gets lots of people killed and honesty and honor saves lives.  He is a product of where he was born and ruled.  So is his family.  And, at some point, the dearth of honor and hardness is going to cost the Seven Kingdoms something fierce.

But allowing Cersei free reign while Robert was injured/dying was beyond dumb and nothing to do with honor.  Every other dumb move I can accept, not this one.

post #1850 of 2123

I haven't actually listened to this interview with Neil Marshall so I don't know if there are any spoilers in it but this part was interesting:

 

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/06/blackwater-director-neil-marshall-on-nudity-and-creating-the-battle/

 

Quote:
It was pretty surreal. I’d not done anything like that in my films before. But the weirdest part was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, “You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it.” So I was like, “Okay, well, if you— you’re the boss.” This particular exec took me to one side and said, “Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side—I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.” So you go ahead and do it.
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