THE AVENGERS (2012) Post-Release - Page 32

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Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

Exactly.

 

And, perhaps more importantly, Johansson was awesome as Black Widow.  It's not like she was some emotionally damaged pouty pre-teen killing machine, (which often is disconcertingly sexual in subtext.)  She was an adult, intelligent, badass character, and very much belonged onscreen with the "big boys."

I feel like the "pre-teen" aspect of this is referring to something very particular, but I'm blanking on what it would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

Are you saying you think they gave Widow too much prominence in the story because she was "the girl"?

I am not saying she was thrown a bone, I'm saying Whedon has an affinity for strong female characters. I thought Widow the character and Johannsen the actress were fantastic. 

I think that Cap kind of got short changed in some of the badassery sweepstakes in the movie. The hostage rescue scene and the bit with the cops were nice (even though the second one was played more for laughs), but there wasn't a moment where we were like "HOLY FUCKING SHIT CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!"

Something small that I think would have gone a long way would be to have him standing after the Thor hits his shield in the forest. Cap delivering the "Are we done yet?" line while Iron Man and Thor are dusting themselves would have a) made Cap look like he can REALLY hang with these guys, and b) would have been a cool way for Cap to earn some of Thor and IM's respect. There are some scenes where Cap does some cool shit, but he doesn't have a moment that registers quite like any of the other characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

I feel like the "pre-teen" aspect of this is referring to something very particular, but I'm blanking on what it would be.

I might have been exaggerating the phenomenon for effect.  But, for example, I was always creeped out by the fascination over Mathilda in The Professional, particularly with regard to wanting to see her become a killer like Leon.

I don't think the point of Captain America has ever been that he can go punch-for-punch with Thor and Iron Man.  It's that he'll throw down with anyone, be it Batroc or Loki or Thanos, if necessary, and won't stop coming no matter how hard he's hit.  To that end, I thought the most quintessential Cap moment was when he asks Thor if he's getting sleepy.  Granted, it's not really a trailer moneyshot.

Captain America was also the first to show Loki that taking on Earth might not be as easy as he thought. In Stuttgart when Captain America just appears out of nowhere I think Loki was thinking - I'm gonna vaporise this mental who's just turned up wearing a crazy outfit - but then Captain America starts smacking him around. When Loki gets the Captain down for a second you can hear the frustration as he says "KNEEL", so what does Captain America do? Kicks him in the face. Legend. 

I think what Cap needed during the bank scene was basically a sub-boss to fight. I think someone else mentioned it earlier in the the thread, but the equivalent of the orc leader from RotK.  Just a chitari who uses a melee weapon of some kind and is a total badass.

Most of Cap's great moments in the finale were simply him being the leader, telling the cops what to do, giving everyone direction, looking out for civilians, and making the call at the end to close the portal.  All great stuff, but I do wish he got a more extended fight scene in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HypnoToad 

I think what Cap needed during the bank scene was basically a sub-boss to fight. I think someone else mentioned it earlier in the the thread, but the equivalent of the orc leader from RotK.  Just a chitari who uses a melee weapon of some kind and is a total badass.

I mentioned this in passing in one of my blog posts, but the Chitauri were really poorly realized.  You just don't notice because the heroes are so well-handled.  There should've been a lieutenant like you say, and probably a different breed of soldier and most importantly should not have been the same color as the pavement they were attacking. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

I mentioned this in passing in one of my blog posts, but the Chitauri were really poorly realized.  You just don't notice because the heroes are so well-handled.  There should've been a lieutenant like you say, and probably a different breed of soldier and most importantly should not have been the same color as the pavement they were attacking. 

They were basically the Phantom Menace driods, minus the" roger roger" voices.

Which already makes them WAAAAY better than the Phantom droids.

Hey!  Those 'roger rogers'  and keystone cop moments gave them more character than the Chitauris!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

I mentioned this in passing in one of my blog posts, but the Chitauri were really poorly realized.  You just don't notice because the heroes are so well-handled.  There should've been a lieutenant like you say, and probably a different breed of soldier and most importantly should not have been the same color as the pavement they were attacking. 

I noticed, and while I would have liked the Chitauri to have been a better defined, more specific menace, they worked for the film. I suspect Joss & Co. wanted to keep Loki as the absolute center of emotional villainy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

 

I noticed, and while I would have liked the Chitauri to have been a better defined, more specific menace, they worked for the film. I suspect Joss & Co. wanted to keep Loki as the absolute center of emotional villainy.

A good compromise would have been to give the Chitauri some individuality; like when Cap takes one out show two Chitauri in the background look at each other like "oh shit", or maybe Hawkeye shoots an arrow into one of them but doesn't kill him, and the Chitauri reacts, maybe pulling the arrow and throwing it back. Something.

Haven't anyone on these CGI teams seen a Harryhausen film?

While Loki works as an emotional villain and the stakes are set up well enough, Loki in the final battle is absent enough as a physical menace, mostly seen looking down and commanding the troops, that the issues with the Chitauri being so bland as anonymous targets are highlighted even more.  As noted above, they could have at least used some more individuality, an expression here and there, and having some of them pose more specific challenges would have also been welcome.

It also doesn't help that their drab design isn't very effective.  All in all, not the greatest part of the film - if the finale wasn't so strong, they would have sunk it pretty low.

Also, every time I see the word "Chitauri" in print I think "Clitorii".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 

A good compromise would have been to give the Chitauri some individuality; like when Cap takes one out show two Chitauri in the background look at each other like "oh shit", or maybe Hawkeye shoots an arrow into one of them but doesn't kill him, and the Chitauri reacts, maybe pulling the arrow and throwing it back. Something.

 

Haven't anyone on these CGI teams seen a Harryhausen film?

I suspect that too often, the answer is "no." Although I'd love to be corrected by someone who works in the industry and can convince me otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HypnoToad 

I think what Cap needed during the bank scene was basically a sub-boss to fight. I think someone else mentioned it earlier in the the thread, but the equivalent of the orc leader from RotK.  Just a chitari who uses a melee weapon of some kind and is a total badass.

That was me! High five!

I actually prefered the smaller Cap moments. I love his first exchange with Banner:

I think part of the point of the Chitauri is that they're NOT individuals, that in fact they're some kind of bio-organic robots. This is actually semi-important, because otherwise you have superheroes engaging in mass slaughter, which don't sit right.
 

They're the ones invading in greater numbers and being jerks!

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Originally Posted by Sherman Davies 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 

Haven't anyone on these CGI teams seen a Harryhausen film?

 

I suspect that too often, the answer is "no." Although I'd love to be corrected by someone who works in the industry and can convince me otherwise.

I have it on good authority that the animator who did the "Bam-Bam" shot was on loan from Tippett Studios, and ALL those folks know their Ray.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead 

Also, every time I see the word "Chitauri" in print I think "Clitorii".

I think of Chaurus chitin.  'cause I'm weird like that.

   Back to the re-release, if it happens it will be in theaters in August.

  Somebody wrote that they would like to see Cap tell people to stop being so reactionary. An idea I had for a future Cap movie would be him shutting down a Neo Nazi group. Without over doing it, show Rodgers sad and confused that people could still believe an evil and failed ideology.

  Finally the battle droids saying Rodger Rodger did rhyme. Like poetry if you will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz 

   Back to the re-release, if it happens it will be in theaters in August.

 

  Somebody wrote that they would like to see Cap tell people to stop being so reactionary. An idea I had for a future Cap movie would be him shutting down a Neo Nazi group. Without over doing it, show Rodgers sad and confused that people could still believe an evil and failed ideology.

As has already been pointed out, the August thing was an idea floated by a site, and then seized upon by that bastion of integrity, AICN.  The initial report never said there were even rumors of it.  They simply speculated based on the idea that they might want to go for Titanic/Avatar, and that Whedon had said there was initially a 3-hour cut (a quote that had nothing to do with discussing a re-release.)

As for the second idea- Cap going after a neo-Nazi group would probably feel like the stakes had been lowered way too dramatically to ever be an idea to focus a sequel on.  Unless, of course, it was something like Cap investigating the group (which could offer the opportunity for the emotive scenes you mention), and then discovering they're at the bottom of the food chain of an attempt to revive Hydra, or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

 

 

As for the second idea- Cap going after a neo-Nazi group would probably feel like the stakes had been lowered way too dramatically to ever be an idea to focus a sequel on.  Unless, of course, it was something like Cap investigating the group (which could offer the opportunity for the emotive scenes you mention), and then discovering they're at the bottom of the food chain of an attempt to revive Hydra, or something.

   That is actually more thought out than my idea. I was thinking a Bond like  pre-credits sequence that wouldn't have anything else to do with the story but would be good to show Cap's character.

Finally saw the movie today. To my shock (and even horror) I was COMPLETELY underwhelmed. I'd been waiting for this flick for over 20 years & found it to be a big steaming pile of "meh". What the fuck is wrong with me?

It's certainly not an objectively great Summer movie the way, say, Raiders is.  But I do think it's more than passable.  Good most of the time, sometimes very good (and, sure, there are clunky bits in there too.)  Beyond that, it just goes to your receptiveness to it, I think.  Personally I had no expectations, and had a blast.  Of course, I know next to nothing about these characters except in the most general way that practically every guy my age does.

As a movie, it's right around a B-, maybe a B if I am being generous.  But I had a ton of fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

Finally saw the movie today. To my shock (and even horror) I was COMPLETELY underwhelmed. I'd been waiting for this flick for over 20 years & found it to be a big steaming pile of "meh". What the fuck is wrong with me?

You are broken inside, have no soul, are a contrarian, hate fun, etc...

Y'know, all the usual stuff people say to a question like that.

It's your punishment for enjoying TRON: LEGACY!

NOTHING IS FOR FREEEEEEEE!!!!

I hope AICN rumor is true about a...3 HR Cut of The Avengers!  To me it is an...Awe-Inspiring Spectacle of Superheroic Cinema not to be surpassed til...Avengers 2!  Though, Next time, I hope Marvel remembers the rallying cry for the team...AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

Finally saw the movie today. To my shock (and even horror) I was COMPLETELY underwhelmed. I'd been waiting for this flick for over 20 years & found it to be a big steaming pile of "meh". What the fuck is wrong with me?

I wasn't underwhelmed in the least, but I can see how that might happen. Having seen it three times (not really by design), I consider the film enormously entertaining, a remarkable triumph of balance and clever writing....but pretty much empty cinematic calories. Whatever Whedon's intentions, I don't think the film is thematically rich or particularly deep.

Which is fine (and I don't mean that in a dickishly condescending way). It's an amusement park ride, but one done exceedingly well, which is no mean feat. I thoroughly enjoyed it, plan on owning it (and the only other Marvel film I own is the first IRON MAN, though I do want to get CAPTAIN AMERICA), and am very glad it was a huge success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike's Pants 

If you've been hanging round this thread then yeah I'd say it's been overhyped for you. I enjoyed it more with subsequent viewings.

I had the same reaction first time I saw it. The first hour felt really choppy, Loki seemed like a much weaker villain than I was expecting (thanks for nothing, Joker comparisons), Tony Stark was a massive chore - the constant, irritating quipping undermining any dramatic weight the scene was trying to build. Plus the Skeletor guy.

Second time around it all flowed so much better that I wondered whether I was just in a pissy mood the first time, or if the hype and specific expectations going in had ruined it. Nearly every flaw just wasn't there anymore:

Loki isn't, and shouldn't be, a world-crushing villain. He's a disaffected teenager trying to get back at his parents.

Downey Jr. shows far more layers than I initially saw. In fact he's arguably the only one with an arc in the movie (albeit the same one he keeps going through in his own movies).

Admittedly Skeletor guy is still useless, and should have been cutting room floored.

Anyway, I've happily felt the same positive way towards it each time since - and I'd recommend to anyone feeling let down by a first viewing to give it a second chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

It's your punishment for enjoying TRON: LEGACY!

Wrong. It's my punishment for LOVING Tron: Legacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

 

Wrong. It's my punishment for LOVING Tron: Legacy.

Oh man... you should be HATING The Avengers for that! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

Finally saw the movie today. To my shock (and even horror) I was COMPLETELY underwhelmed. I'd been waiting for this flick for over 20 years & found it to be a big steaming pile of "meh". What the fuck is wrong with me?

Did your crowd love it? I find summer blockbusters generally play better when people are cheering and clapping at all the right moments. That said, I can easily see myself loving this on DVD. I had a ton of fun with it, but also went in with zero expectations.

Yep, my (small) crowd ate it up.

My inner monologue went something like this:

5 minutes in: "I can't believe this movie exists!! OMG!!"

30 minutes in: "This is a little slow. But I knew that. Still digging it."

60 minutes in: "Heroes battling each other? Is there a story here? Ugh...this is like watching someone play with action figures."

75 minutes in: "The Avengers blu was gonna be an instant buy...not so sure anymore. Christ, Cap's uniform looks like shit. Why'd they cover his ears??"

90 minutes in: "How long have we been on the Hellicarrier?? Stop talking about the goddamn Tesseract, already! A Macguffin is NOT a plotline"

120 minutes in: "Ok, the big battle. Pretty damn great. Hawkeye rules. I wish they didn't show so much of this in the trailers. Christ, Cap's uniform looks like shit."

The tag at the end: "Holy shit...Marvel just got REAL. Avengers 2 is gonna fucking rock".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

60 minutes in: "Heroes battling each other? Is there a story here? Ugh...this is like watching someone play with action figures."

This was the lowest point of the flick for me, especially on rewatches. Tony's "Let's Be A Dick"-o-Meter spikes suddenly and sharply here, all for the sake of cramming in some fanboy service. It's distracting, it's not a fun or exciting action scene, and it's obviously there Just Because. Terrible.

Wait, are you talking about the three-way Cap/Thor/Iron Man fight in the woods? Tony amps up the wisecracks at that point, but his motivation for attacking Thor is perfectly sound. He's a barely-understood entity from Loki's world who's swept in to grab him. I don't disagree that the scene is a bit fan-servicey, but for fuck's sake, the whole MOVIE is fan-servicey. And it's Thor's introduction to the movie, he needs to make a big entrance since he's the last major player to appear.

If you're talking about the bickering later on, I would have liked it to be motivated a little better, but sometimes people just rub each other the wrong way. And this was a) probably motivated slightly by Loki and b) instantly put aside when actual danger happens, which was one of the greatest moments of the movie.
 

I thought it was a solid scene from an action perspective, but I can't really call shenanigans on something that subjective.

I will say though that based on Tony's characterization in the two Iron Man films (EGO, EGO, EGO), he's got plenty of reasons to be stand-offish with the other Avengers. There's the fact that he was told he couldn't hack the team, there's the fact that the father he clearly has issues with was constantly extolling the virtues of Steve Rogers, and most importantly, there's the fact that a guy who's used to being the top of the food chain is suddenly surrounded by guys who are equally unique, and in some cases, more powerful. It didn't seem supremely out of character for me at least that he'd be interested in a dick measuring contest.

http://m15m.livejournal.com/23444.html

Cleolinda, delightful as always. Her Hulkspeak might even be on Film Crit Hulk's level.

I cracked up at

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

Yep, my (small) crowd ate it up.

 

My inner monologue went something like this:

 

5 minutes in: "I can't believe this movie exists!! OMG!!"

 

30 minutes in: "This is a little slow. But I knew that. Still digging it."

 

60 minutes in: "Heroes battling each other? Is there a story here? Ugh...this is like watching someone play with action figures."

 

75 minutes in: "The Avengers blu was gonna be an instant buy...not so sure anymore. Christ, Cap's uniform looks like shit. Why'd they cover his ears??"

 

90 minutes in: "How long have we been on the Hellicarrier?? Stop talking about the goddamn Tesseract, already! A Macguffin is NOT a plotline"

 

120 minutes in: "Ok, the big battle. Pretty damn great. Hawkeye rules. I wish they didn't show so much of this in the trailers. Christ, Cap's uniform looks like shit."

 

The tag at the end: "Holy shit...Marvel just got REAL. Avengers 2 is gonna fucking rock".

What? No opinion on the old Jew that stood up for HIS PEOPLE?!

I seriously hated that moment. And Silvestri's obvious Jewish sounding music. I chuckled in the theater, but really wanted to throw my popcorn at the screen.

That ENTIRE scene made no sense to me. Loki's gonna try to enslave humanity & singles out some random cadre of punters & pensioners? Why them?? He put so much effort into making a show of "ruling", what, 200 Best Buy shoppers? Think BIGGER, dumbass. At least hold a hockey rink hostage or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Decade 

That ENTIRE scene made no sense to me. Loki's gonna try to enslave humanity & singles out some random cadre of punters & pensioners. Why them?? He put so much effort into making a show of "ruling", what, 200 Best Buy shoppers? Think BIGGER, dumbass. At least hold a hockey rink hostage or something.

I thought the whole point was that he was just dicking around and creating a scene to get the Avengers attention so that Hawkeye could steal the whatzit?

Yeah, he crashed that party so he scan some high-society suit's eye, allowing Hawkeye to bypass some scanner.  Then he's just fucking with the Avengers to keep their attention away from his flunkies assembling the portal thingy. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 

What? No opinion on the old Jew that stood up for HIS PEOPLE?!

 

I seriously hated that moment. And Silvestri's obvious Jewish sounding music. I chuckled in the theater, but really wanted to throw my popcorn at the screen.

You know, taken on its own this is a pretty ugly comment.

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Originally Posted by MikeI 

 

You know, taken on its own this is a pretty ugly comment.

I dont know what the original writer intended with this comment. But my interpretation was that the writer felt this was a hackneyed scene. Yes the author did express disdain for the scene and use the word jewish twice....but that hardly qualifies it as hate speech. Mikel, is your intention to show that the author has some racist agenda? Or is it objection that he used the words hate and jewish in the same cluster of words? Or do you feel that comments like his propogate racism?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeI 

 

You know, taken on its own this is a pretty ugly comment.

I'm with Mike on this.  If Carn merely intended that as critical snark and nothing more... then he just massively fucked it up.  He sounds like goddamn Cartman.