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THE AVENGERS (2012) Post-Release - Page 49

post #2401 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post

Eh, I'll probably check out the original Ellis stuff at some point.

 

Did Vaughan ever write any Avengers aside from some of those characters' appearances in Runaways? I friggin' love that guy.

 

I've heard pretty good things about Ellis' short-run Nextwave as well.

Do yourself a favor and read Planetary, some of the best comics of the last decade. It also shares the same setting as the Authority, and even has a pretty enjoyable crossover with them.

post #2402 of 2727

^Second the Planetary recommendation^


There is also an awesome Planetary/Batman crossover, where the Planetary team meet ALL iterations of The Batman including the Adam West version!

post #2403 of 2727

Incidentally, I have read some of Warren Ellis' work, mostly just the first couple volumes of Transmetropolitan. I like his smart-ass style, and Spider Jerusalem's interest as a character helps take the edge off the blatant politicizing. And while everything involved in Norman Osborn's presidency in Marvel Comics was dumb as hell, Osborn's complete mental breakdown after a while was BRILLIANTLY written by Ellis.

post #2404 of 2727

Back to the film, one group of scenes I had completely forgotten the greatness of are the ones where the various Avengers recuperate in the aftermath of the Helicarrier attack. There's all sorts of great stuff here, and there's real drama in it as we prep for the final battle:

 

-Nick Fury informing Cap and Tony of Coulson's sacrifice is probably Jackson's best acting in the film. Granted, I kind of love his Jackson-ness through the rest of the film anyway ("but given that it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it" being a particular favorite), but this is a nice, understated scene for him.

 

-The wonderful, quiet beat of Thor hesitating to pick up his hammer.

 

-Cap and Tony arguing about Coulson's death, especially since Tony is so clearly devastated, but acting angry to hide his real pain. And Cap is sad, but attempts to rationalize the death as Coulson's duty, and reminds Tony that he doesn't like the idea of being Fury's puppet any more than the other man. It's probably Downey and Evans' best scene together.

 

-The same goes for Black Widow and Hawkeye, especially since Renner really gets to open up emotionally for the first time in the movie.

 

-And of course that wonderfully funny, down-to-earth Harry Dean Stanton cameo in Mark Ruffalo's scene.

post #2405 of 2727

I was talking with a friend about how the fatuousness of Loki really sets them up well for some more threatening villains in future installments. That they made him such a worthy antagonist bodes well for the real heavy hitters (Thanos, I'm assuming).

post #2406 of 2727

What I liked about Loki here is that he was a personal villain for every main hero in some way. Even Cap, who doesn't get a ton of screentime with him, has the short Stuttgart brawl where his entrance line tells you everything you need to know about Cap's disgust for Loki's attitude.

 

I look forward to Thanos, but inevitably he's going to be less of a personal, insidious threat than Loki to the whole group. If they have him as one, it'll probably only be for one or two of the heavy hitters.

post #2407 of 2727

Color me so so happy that Loki turned out as well as he did, especially when my attitude coming in was "I guess..."

post #2408 of 2727
You are all of you beneath him.
post #2409 of 2727

You know what this film needed? 

Wipes.  Big ol' hairy wipes.  Distorting, maybe even colour separating wipes. Left to right, right to left, iris out of any old round thing wipes.  Maybe even with a *eeengow* sort of noise to go with some of them and maybe a bit of extra flute work from the orchestra at just the right moment.

Maybe not Cap's shield or a giant 'A' spinning across the screen.  I'd probably draw the line there.  Bit still: Wipes.

post #2410 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post

What I liked about Loki here is that he was a personal villain for every main hero in some way. Even Cap, who doesn't get a ton of screentime with him, has the short Stuttgart brawl where his entrance line tells you everything you need to know about Cap's disgust for Loki's attitude.

I look forward to Thanos, but inevitably he's going to be less of a personal, insidious threat than Loki to the whole group. If they have him as one, it'll probably only be for one or two of the heavy hitters.

Fighting Thanos allowed Cap one of his defining character moments. It's cheesy, but it's emotionally true.



Edited by Reasor - 12/30/12 at 9:54pm
post #2411 of 2727

Ooohhh.... that is a good moment.

 

If they give Evans something akin to that, I'm sure he'll play the hell out of it.

post #2412 of 2727

Oh man I can't WAIT for Cap to get a moment like that in Avengers 2. 

post #2413 of 2727

I love the first half of Infinity Gauntlet, but then all the good heroes get their asses kicked, and the whole mess gets wrapped by a bunch of people no one cares about with names like Drax and Pip and Nebula and whatever. 

 

Still, great Cap moment. 

 

There are many moments in The Avengers that make me happy, but this scene is particularly awesome. The phrase 'comic book come to life' gets tossed around frequently in reviews of modern superhero films, but it's never more apt than that scene. 

post #2414 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by grubstreeter View Post

I love the first half of Infinity Gauntlet, but then all the good heroes get their asses kicked, and the whole mess gets wrapped by a bunch of people no one cares about with names like Drax and Pip and Nebula and whatever. 

 

Still, great Cap moment. 

 

There are many moments in The Avengers that make me happy, but this scene is particularly awesome. The phrase 'comic book come to life' gets tossed around frequently in reviews of modern superhero films, but it's never more apt than that scene. 

 

I somehow doubt that will happen in Avengers 2. Especially since they've already done such a good job streamlining the fucking mess Marvel Comics stories can devolve into.

 

And yeah, that's absolutely one of my favorite bits from the entire movie. Just awesome in every way. And I had no idea before that little BTS video that Cap was a "digital double" in that scene.

post #2415 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

You know what this film needed? 

Wipes.  Big ol' hairy wipes.  Distorting, maybe even colour separating wipes. Left to right, right to left, iris out of any old round thing wipes.  Maybe even with a *eeengow* sort of noise to go with some of them and maybe a bit of extra flute work from the orchestra at just the right moment.

Maybe not Cap's shield or a giant 'A' spinning across the screen.  I'd probably draw the line there.  Bit still: Wipes.

 

Please don't say wipes, because I always think of this.

post #2416 of 2727

Aaaand yet another reason I'm glad we have Don Cheadle as Rhodey/War Machine now. Cheadle is a great actor and seems like a totally awesome dude. Terrence is a DECENT actor who's done very good work yet appears to be a misogynist.

post #2417 of 2727
Okay he's a moron but still say it was a mistake to replace Howard with him he just looks way better as Rhodes than Cheadle. I like Cheadle but he's totally wrong for the part can't buy him for that part at all. Edris Elba on the other hand.........
post #2418 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturo RJ View Post

Okay he's a moron but still say it was a mistake to replace Howard with him he just looks way better as Rhodes than Cheadle. I like Cheadle but he's totally wrong for the part can't buy him for that part at all. Edris Elba on the other hand.........

I have to agree. Howard is a better fit for the part.
post #2419 of 2727

I also have a lot more personal affection for Cheadle as an actor. The man made Hotel for Dogs worth sitting through, for God's sake!

post #2420 of 2727
I just feel like he has no genuine rapport with Robert Downey Jr. Howard felt like a guy you could belive got on well with Tony Stark.
post #2421 of 2727

To me, it works. And Cheadle also feels more like a genuine soldier to me.

post #2422 of 2727
I guess I just take the opposite view on this one, but I am glad you like Cheadle.
post #2423 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post

I just feel like he has no genuine rapport with Robert Downey Jr. Howard felt like a guy you could belive got on well with Tony Stark.

 


Agree: Howard and RDJ had a very interesting chemistry together that is totally lacking with Cheadle. I could totally buy Howard as Stark's straighlaced, uptight but loyal friend.

post #2424 of 2727
Yup, Howard over Cheadle, so hard.
post #2425 of 2727

I think both are fine, but I have a personal preference for Cheadle.

post #2426 of 2727

Howard > Cheadle

 

Norton >>> Ruffalo >>>>>> Bana

post #2427 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Decade View Post

Howard > Cheadle

 

Norton >>> Ruffalo >>>>>> Bana

 

OK, now THAT'S crazy talk. Ruffalo is waaaaay better than Norton (who I did like in his film). Norton wouldn't have fit on this team at all.

post #2428 of 2727

That's one reason why he would have been more interesting.

post #2429 of 2727

To be blunt, I rather massively disagree, but to each his own. When I say he wouldn't have fit in, I meant it in a BAD way. Ruffalo is the misfit of the team in a way that makes for good "bouncing off".

post #2430 of 2727

Hemsworth delivery of "He's adopted," never fails to crack me up.

post #2431 of 2727

Upon repeat viewings, I've found that The Avengers is alot like Rio Bravo. You can turn it on anytime & just enjoy "hanging out" with those characters.

 

Stark's "Hey alright guys, we did it. Yay..." at the end kills me every time.

post #2432 of 2727

I think I like the Avengers more than just about anybody on this board.  I constantly work quotes into my every day life.

 

"What are we having today guys?  Some yoga?  Huge bag of weed?"

 

"Doth mother know that you weareth her drapes?"

post #2433 of 2727

RDJ ad libbed the drapes line.

post #2434 of 2727

Yet more moments/scenes/lines I love:

 

-When Thor is trapped in the Hulk cage and hits the glass with Mjolnir to make it crack ever so slightly, Hiddleston has this beautiful reaction that goes from an "oh shit" face to nervous laughter in about five seconds.

 

-A scene not enough people talk about: Bruce and Tony's first real conversation where they open up to each other, with the former talkinga bout the shrapnel in his heart (also a handy reminder for anyone who hasn't seen his movies) and the idea that maybe "the other guy" SAVED Banner from dying in that gamma radiation accident. Honestly, I adore that thread all throughout the movie that Tony loves the idea of the Hulk. And it got me thinking: does he believe that because he sees so much of himself at Banner? A flawed man trying so hard to be good? And of course Downey and Ruffalo have such a beautiful rapport.

 

-Coulson's "You lack conviction" really seems to strike a nerve in Loki, and he almost replies: "I don't think I-" BOOM! I wonder what he was going to say in the rest of that sentence?

 

-The sound design doesn't get nearly enough praise. From the obvious modifications to Ruffalo's voice for the Hulk, to Thor's hammer (admittedly on loan from his own movie, but it makes some cool-ass sounds), to Hawkeye's mechanical quiver, to Iron Man's repulsors (again, from his movies but still).... I could go on. Even the Chitauri's stuff sounds really neat.

 

-God, Clark Gregg underplaying his death scene just amps up the tragedy.

 

-The World Security Council can suck my fat one.

 

-Tony's despair at Coulson's death gains even more significance when you consider the last person who sacrificed themselves for him: Yinsen, in the first Iron Man movie. He's trying to redeem himself for past mistakes, and yet he still can't save everyone, especially those who put their lives on the line for him. Not a word is said about any of this, but I believe that's exactly how Robert Downey, Jr. is playing those reactions.

post #2435 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Decade View Post

Howard > Cheadle

Norton >>> Ruffalo >>>>>> Bana

Definitely agree except I'd put Bana ahead of Ruffalo. That could just be down to Bana having more screen time. I enjoyed Avengers but didn't really like how the drama with many of the side characters was handled. I think the film is flawed, pretty light and not particularly cinematic, but good fun over all. I do worry that it's massive success is going to lead studios to focus even more on 'sure thing' concepts like super heroes and team ups, eschewing original content more than is already the case.
post #2436 of 2727
Some insight here from an unlikely source; I watched Star Trek Generations last night, and a key moment from that film seems applicable here with Marvel's new movie universe concept. While Kirk at first is enjoying life in the Nexus, since it presents him with whatever he could possibly desire, he comes to find it all a bit hollow after he makes a heroic jump over a chasm with his horse, only to feel no sense of danger. In life when he'd made that jump he knew that it was always possible it could go awry, resulting in injury or even death. In the Nexus, he knew there was no chance of 'dying' and so no there sense of excitement for him.

That is how I felt during the final battle of Avengers. Perhaps more than other movies, even more than in stand alone super hero films where the side characters might conceivably be written out of the series for dramatic purposes, I knew that every single costumed person in that film would inevitably 'live to fight another day'.

I am not saying that kind of story telling is inherently bad. Good films can result from within those constraints. But I would hate to think that studios might come to feel that is the only kind of story they can tell, due to some artificial need for 'continuity' across a series of individual films. Especially when one can imagine a future where the only new studio films seen in a year all come from just a handful of immortal franchises. You can't kill Iron Man, or even reboot him, if you need to have him as the face of your Avengers series. Nolan could conceivably have killed Batman and let WB reboot the franchise, so even Dark Knight Rises had a sense of finality and danger to it. But that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

The obvious solution is 'universe wide' reboot events, like infinite crisis or 'new 52 cinema edition''. Except isn't that everything people have been saying is wrong with comics for decades? The baggage of continuity and branding hamstringing the industry's ability to tell original stories?
Edited by Dr Harford - 1/3/13 at 5:45am
post #2437 of 2727

Actually, what's surprised me on rewatches is how well the drama does work. It's not for very long portions of the film, no, but some quite serious issues are driving these characters, and the film addresses them quite well. I think the film also benefits from having had so much set-up from the other films.

 

I'm with Josh Miller and several others around these parts: it's one of my favorite films of 2012, as well as the best blockbuster of last year.

post #2438 of 2727

As far as death goes: the fact that these characters needed to stay alive for future films didn't even cross my mind during that final battle. That, to me, is a big sign of the film's overall effect.

post #2439 of 2727
I thought the end battle was generally pretty fun and well visualized (in the FX shots). I enjoyed the movie after having seen it. But even with a giant monster and aliens and stuff attacking NYC, and a whole team of super heroes to fight them off, there wasn't a single instant that was for me as dramatic or exciting as Batman pitifully throwing those exploding fire cracker things at Bane during their sewer fight in TDKR. Avengers just feels somehow... insubstantial.. to me in a way I wouldn't want most movies to be. This was perhaps also partly down to the direction, as I thought the script and banter and sense of fun was solid, but Whedon should probably cut his teeth on smaller films and hone his cinematic craft before tackling a complex film like Avengers. I think he might have been overwhelmed because I found the drama and tension lacking from most scenes in a way that would not happen with a stronger director. One final note is I like the performance and the actor, but for whatever reason I find Loki's costume and haircut low rent and kind of goofy, and neither here nor in Thor could I take him seriously. It makes him look small and silly, when I think he should appear more princely and imposing, if still twisted and hateful. Obviously that last point is very subjective though, so you might feel differently.
post #2440 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Spider View Post

 

 

-When Thor is trapped in the Hulk cage and hits the glass with Mjolnir to make it crack ever so slightly, Hiddleston has this beautiful reaction that goes from an "oh shit" face to nervous laughter in about five seconds.

 

-A scene not enough people talk about: Bruce and Tony's first real conversation where they open up to each other, with the former talkinga bout the shrapnel in his heart (also a handy reminder for anyone who hasn't seen his movies) and the idea that maybe "the other guy" SAVED Banner from dying in that gamma radiation accident. Honestly, I adore that thread all throughout the movie that Tony loves the idea of the Hulk. And it got me thinking: does he believe that because he sees so much of himself at Banner? A flawed man trying so hard to be good? And of course Downey and Ruffalo have such a beautiful rapport.

 

 

 

Hiddleston is so, so good in this. Think of how badly a role like Loki could have gone. 

 

About the Stark/Banner meeting, I read somewhere that RDJ told Whedon, in regards to Banner, "Look, there's no way Stark isn't gonna poke at this guy just to see what happens." 

 

I love that bit - he leans forward to peer into his eyes. "Nothin'?"

post #2441 of 2727
I think it's kind of great that this movie isn't grander or more weighty. It's not like we don't have plenty of summer movies that take themselves extra seriously and run almost three hours. If anything, the fact that audiences embraced this, essentially a light comedy, makes me optimistic about the whole Marvel experiment going forward.

I there actually a version of this where you're worried about whether one of them dies or not? You know there's sequels for all of them planned. And they also executed one of the best character deaths of the summer too, so I don't even know where you're coming from.
post #2442 of 2727

I love love LOVE this movie.

post #2443 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post

But even with a giant monster and aliens and stuff attacking NYC, and a whole team of super heroes to fight them off, there wasn't a single instant that was for me as dramatic or exciting as Batman pitifully throwing those exploding fire cracker things at Bane during their sewer fight in TDKR. Avengers just feels somehow... insubstantial.. to me in a way I wouldn't want most movies to be. 

 

As greatly as it pains me to do this....I completely agree.

 

I enjoyed the hell out of AVENGERS. Own it, even, and will enjoy watching it again as I desire. With the possible exception of Stark's willingness to sacrifice himself, the film is essentially without tension or stakes. Coulson's death was sad, yes, but when we're talking an invasion of incredibly advanced and hostile aliens, the stakes should be more than just one guy's death.

 

It sounds like I didn't like the film, which isn't true. I had a GREAT time at the theater watching it, and it'll remain a fun disc to watch. It's cotton candy, though. I guess I just prefer something with a bit more heft.

post #2444 of 2727

You could level that complaint against so many films though. Do we ever really think that James Bond, or Indiana Jones, or so many other heores won't survive their adventure?

 

It's not the 'if' that makes it interesting - it's the 'how'.

 

Is The Avengers light in tone? Yes, and that's a good thing.

 

When superheroes are deconstructed and given weight, we can get some very interesting and worthwhile stories, like Watchmen, the Incredibles, or Dark Knight.

 

But the types of superhero stories I enjoy most are those that deliver the goods straight up and unironic, like the animated DCU and the Marvel cinematic universe. Those are the ones I return to when I want some comicbook viewing.
 

post #2445 of 2727

I kind of understand the meta-level lack of danger to the characters being a sticking point for people (though I'm not sure why those people would bother with superhero movies in general), but there's something odd about the person making that critique most strongly also being the board's biggest James Bond fan.

 

Edit: curses, grubstreeter hitting the same notes before me!

post #2446 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

 

As greatly as it pains me to do this....I completely agree.

 

I enjoyed the hell out of AVENGERS. Own it, even, and will enjoy watching it again as I desire. With the possible exception of Stark's willingness to sacrifice himself, the film is essentially without tension or stakes. Coulson's death was sad, yes, but when we're talking an invasion of incredibly advanced and hostile aliens, the stakes should be more than just one guy's death.

 

It sounds like I didn't like the film, which isn't true. I had a GREAT time at the theater watching it, and it'll remain a fun disc to watch. It's cotton candy, though. I guess I just prefer something with a bit more heft.

 

There are few who would argue there. I think the Avengers gets away with it (but only just imo) by the virtue of it being an Adventure movie first and foremost.

post #2447 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

I kind of understand the meta-level lack of danger to the characters being a sticking point for people (though I'm not sure why those people would bother with superhero movies in general), but there's something odd about the person making that critique most strongly also being the board's biggest James Bond fan.

 

Edit: curses, grubstreeter hitting the same notes before me!

 

For the most part, I'm fine with none of the Avengers being in "real" mortal danger. As you write, that's just part of the genre. For me, though, AVENGERS failed to raise or evoke emotional stakes for the conflict, other than just wanting to see the group in action and kicking ass. Coulson's death sucked, but we already knew Loki was an asshole. That death didn't communicate the greater danger to the earth/audience. 

 

Look, I think AVENGERS is more of a triumph than anything else. By almost any account, it should have been awful. Whedon & Co. made a really fun adventure film that successfully juggles some mythic characters. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. My personal preference, though, is a story where there are stakes and we're more invested in the obstacles the hero(es) needs to overcome.

post #2448 of 2727

I think Avengers is great precisely because it is insubstantial. Many people have fatigued on the Nolan-style dourness. I don't want to watch moody and depressed superheroes. After all the fucked up shit that has happened in the world, people just want to have fun watching exciting people with amazing powers do some pretty cool things. A movie about superheroes who actually *enjoy* their powers? You couldn't ask for anything better. This movie is fucking aces.
 

post #2449 of 2727

It's one of the most purely REWATCHABLE comic book movies I've ever seen. Since getting it for Christmas a week and a half ago, I've watched it again 3 times: with commentary, with friends, and just by my lonesome.

 

Incidentally, here's how I'd "rank" the Marvel Cinematic Universe films so far:

 

1. The Avengers-...I think I've made it clear why.

 

2. Iron Man-Still the best origin out of all the films, with Downey giving one of the defining performances of his entire career. Gwyneth Paltrow makes an astonishing rebound as Pepper Potts, Jeff Bridges is a FANTASTIC adversary (so is Faran Tahir as Raza, actually), Shaun Toub makes the most of his short screen time, Clark Gregg makes an immediate impression as Agent Coulson, the after-credits stinger is a mouth-watering tease, the effects and design work on the suits is *gorgeous*, and I actually think the action is pretty good too (if not as flashy as some of the later films would get). The only thing I don't really like about the movie is the forgettable score; it supports the film while it's happening fine, but I'll be damned if I can actually remember anything that wasn't AC/DC or Sabbath.

 

3. Captain America-OK, this is something of a personal bias showing (anyone who knows me knows I loooove these kinds of action-adventure films), but I do think it's quite excellent on its own. Joe Johnston shows once again that he's great at fantastical period piece settings, Chris Evans completely reinvents himself acting-wise as Steve/Cap, the action for the most part is pretty great (I agree that the mid-film montage is "cool" but kind of empty), and it's Silvestri's best score in YEARS. Additionally, Hayley Atwell is completely winning, tough and sexy as Peggy (it helps that the script wisely makes her own character arc parallel to Steve's), Tommy Lee Jones is hilarious and awesome as Phillips ("He's makin' me cry!"), Stanley Tucci is *wonderful*, Toby Jones is a magnificent toady, and Hugo Weaving goes full-tilt into awesome ham mode as Red Skull (the unbelievable make-up job helps a lot).

 

4. Thor-On the one hand, there's LOTS of great stuff here. The cast is terrific (particularly Hemsworth, Hiddleston, and the god among men that is Idris Elba), the action is quite fun and destructive, Patrick Doyle's score is damn good, the script is well-balanced and smartly written, and it looks utterly gorgeous (yes, even the New Mexico stuff). On the other hand, I really think some of the deleted scenes should have been left in, as they give a fuller picture of many of the Asgardians as characters, and despite Hemsworth and Portman's best efforts, the romance between Thor and Jane Foster never really takes off. The reason that Cap and Peggy's relationship works for me is because they don't start out in a romance; their relationship evolves and grows throughout the story. This *kinda* happens in Thor, but it's much less of focus than Thor's own character arc. I love the film, but with more reservations.

 

5. Iron Man 2-Still probably the most heavily flawed of the movies, but there IS, again, a lot to like. Downey, Gregg and Paltrow are still great, Cheadle replaces Howard quite ably, Mickey Rourke and Sam Rockwell do what they can with underwritten parts, and the action has a lot more flair to it than the first movie. On the other hand, I did note that the villains are underwritten (which sucks, because there's a ton of potential in both their casting and their basic stories), Scarlett Johansson has one big fight scene and that's about it, and John Debney provides another forgettable score. Which is sad, because I usually really like Debney.

post #2450 of 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

 

For the most part, I'm fine with none of the Avengers being in "real" mortal danger. As you write, that's just part of the genre. For me, though, AVENGERS failed to raise or evoke emotional stakes for the conflict, other than just wanting to see the group in action and kicking ass. Coulson's death sucked, but we already knew Loki was an asshole. That death didn't communicate the greater danger to the earth/audience. 

 

Look, I think AVENGERS is more of a triumph than anything else. By almost any account, it should have been awful. Whedon & Co. made a really fun adventure film that successfully juggles some mythic characters. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. My personal preference, though, is a story where there are stakes and we're more invested in the obstacles the hero(es) needs to overcome.

 

I prefer that type of story as well.  So does Whedon, actually; one of the more confounding arguments I remember running across in the lead up to the movie is that he is too quick to kill off important characters in his original works.  But I'm not really sure what's supposed to be done about it.  Marvel is not going to allow a script where Thor dies to go to production even if Spielberg, Jay-Z and the Koch brothers were all lobbying to let them finance it themselves. 

 

Honestly, this was more of an issue for me with TDKR, which leveraged its meta-position as "THE EPIC CONCLUSION TO THE DARK KNIGHT LEGEND" to pretend it might have the balls to kill off its franchise character, when of course it didn't really.  Whereas with The Avengers I didn't feel cheated when Iron Man got back up because I never thought the movie would go there and never felt like it had pretended it was that kind of movie.

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