THE AVENGERS (2012) Post-Release - Page 54

Weirdly, it's the Battle of NYC that drags most for me on recent viewings. Not all parts, but it's definitely the slowest part of the film for me. It's also hard for me to get past how ineffective Cap, Hawkeye and Black Widow would be against an army capable of flight and using advanced weaponry. And even in context of the film, I don't really buy that they're the part of the team that's getting significant shit done.

I've never had any issues with the opening 20 minutes or so.

He's convinced me. The first twenty minutes is groin grabbingly acceptable.

Banner bluffs Natasha.

Loki bluffs Fury/SHIELD.

Natasha bluffs Loki.

COULSON BLUFFS ALL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

You're all backwards!!! That opening is so... FUNCTIONAL.

MILEAGE DOES NOT VARY!!!

Apparently you like DKR 87%, then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

Banner bluffs Natasha.

 

Loki bluffs Fury/SHIELD.

 

Natasha bluffs Loki.

 

COULSON BLUFFS ALL.

Ladies and gentlemen... THE BLUFFENGERS!!!

BLUFFENGERS: BLUFFSEMBLE!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Grimm 

 

Apparently you like DKR 87%, then.

I don't get it.

EXPLAIN IT AS YOU WOULD TO A CHIIIILD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

 

I don't get it.

 

EXPLAIN IT AS YOU WOULD TO A CHIIIILD.

If mileage does not vary, everyone likes everything the same.

DKR has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 87%.

If everyone likes everything the same, then everyone likes DKR 87% much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

Weirdly, it's the Battle of NYC that drags most for me on recent viewings. Not all parts, but it's definitely the slowest part of the film for me. It's also hard for me to get past how ineffective Cap, Hawkeye and Black Widow would be against an army capable of flight and using advanced weaponry. And even in context of the film, I don't really buy that they're the part of the team that's getting significant shit done.

 

Hawkeye is a guy who can apparently thread a needle with an arrow from like half a km. And he has explosive arrows. He's unquestionably marginalized a bit by the plot, but this whole "HA HA HAWKEYE IS LAME BECAUSE ARROWS" shit needs to stop. If anything I put him as the #4 most useful team member.

With Cap it's more that he's the strategist. Though having a shield that repels literally everything would seem to be useful.

Black Widow...OK. But that's why her big moment during the New York seige isn't fighting, it's scaling to the top of Stark Tower to shut down the portal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Grimm 

 

If mileage does not vary, everyone likes everything the same.

 

DKR has a Rotten Tomatoes score of 87%.

 

If everyone likes everything the same, then everyone likes DKR 87% much.

Your error is in thinking that I give Rotten Tomatoes scores ANY credence!  Mwahahaha, I made you explain yourself!

There is only ONE mileage!

MY MILEAGE!!!

AND IT'S IN KILOMETERS!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

Hawkeye is a guy who can apparently thread a needle with an arrow from like half a km. And he has explosive arrows. He's unquestionably marginalized a bit by the plot, but this whole "HA HA HAWKEYE IS LAME BECAUSE ARROWS" shit needs to stop. If anything I put him as the #4 most useful team member.

 

With Cap it's more that he's the strategist. Though having a shield that repels literally everything would seem to be useful.

 

Black Widow...OK. But that's why her big moment during the New York seige isn't fighting, it's scaling to the top of Stark Tower to shut down the portal.

I don't think Hawkeye is lame. And I really dig cinematic Cap. Black Widow I'm fairly neutral on. My take wasn't about their coolness or abilities, it's that it seems really, really apparent to me from situation as presented in the film - thousands (if not tens of thousands) of invading alien warriors would eventually (if not easily) overcome three individuals lacking the firepower and/or "durability" of Thor, Iron Man and Hulk. 

And while I get the character moment we're given when Stark cedes leadership to Cap, I don't think Rogers does any extraordinary strategizing in the film.

It's not just strategizing with Cap, it's also that he throws himself with absolutely no hesitation into every available breach, and keeps getting up after taking serious lumps.  He comes off as a hero because he acts like one, more so than because of tangible contributions to the fight (which he provides the least of anyone).

The issue of what a Hawkeye can bring to the team is a built-in joke for any Super Friends-ish team scenario.  I thought the movie handled it better than I had hoped, but if it actually bothers anyone then maybe superhero team-up movies aren't really their best bet for entertainment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

 

And while I get the character moment we're given when Stark cedes leadership to Cap, I don't think Rogers does any extraordinary strategizing in the film.

He tells those cops to secure the perimeter. That's why Joss Whedon gets the big bucks.

I dunno, it looks to me like Cap was kicking ass on that bridge pretty good.  I got the sense he was definately controlling the ground game as best as he could, while Thor, Iron Man and Hulk worried about really big stuff.

Cap assumes the leadership role. He's the guy who makes the hard call to close the portal with Tony still inside. He also frees all the hostages. Maybe it's not "strategizing" per se, but I think his contribution is pretty clear.

As for "how would they far against thousands", well...honestly I'm skeptical that even the Hulk could take on an entire army straight on. Which is why it's good they don't take them straight on. There's a bottleneck that Thor manages to keep fairly closed, and they don't seem to take on more than a handful of Chitauri at a time. This is an entire city we're talking about, not a battlefield.

It's still implausible, but c'mon. SUPERHERO MOVIE. This is exactly the kind of shit that happens in these things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

It's not just strategizing with Cap, it's also that he throws himself with absolutely no hesitation into every available breach, and keeps getting up after taking serious lumps.  He comes off as a hero because he acts like one, more so than because of tangible contributions to the fight (which he provides the least of anyone).

 

The issue of what a Hawkeye can bring to the team is a built-in joke for any Super Friends-ish team scenario.  I thought the movie handled it better than I had hoped, but if it actually bothers anyone then maybe superhero team-up movies aren't really their best bet for entertainment.

Well, I was just responding to Prankster's post re: Cap's value. I absolutely get the sacrificial nobility he brings, as well as perseverance. And I agree with you that Whedon did a genuinely great job juggling these characters and creating a fun, BIG scenario for them to overcome.

My take is simply that, on subsequent viewings, the plausibility of Cap, Hawkeye and Black Widow making a difference against thousands (or more) of heavily armed and armored aliens using advanced weaponry - or even surviving the attack - seems to strain the credulity of even the film's reality.

That's just my take, though. Variable mileage and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freeman 

I dunno, it looks to me like Cap was kicking ass on that bridge pretty good.  I got the sense he was definately controlling the ground game as best as he could, while Thor, Iron Man and Hulk worried about really big stuff.

Again, I don't dispute Cap's hand to hand fighting ability, or even his skill at taking on a small group of Chitauri. Taking on thousands of them is another thing, and repeat viewings of the film make it plain (to me) that the aliens don't do the one thing that seems most likely: simply drown the three on-the-ground heroes in numbers, which they could have easliy done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Prankster 

 

It's still implausible, but c'mon. SUPERHERO MOVIE. This is exactly the kind of shit that happens in these things.

Hey, I own the movie. Saw it three times in the theater. I dig it. But I find this point harder (or near impossible) to ignore on repeat viewings.

I'm right there with you, Michael, re: Cap. I chalk it up to the difference in mediums and how it's not quite as plausible on film, but works as well as it can given the circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

My take is simply that, on subsequent viewings, the plausibility of Cap, Hawkeye and Black Widow making a difference against thousands (or more) of heavily armed and armored aliens using advanced weaponry - or even surviving the attack - seems to strain the credulity of even the film's reality.

I don't think the movie strains itself trying to suggest that the "normals" are matching the body counts of the heavy hitters.  But what the script wisely does is provide smaller scale, tangible goals that the little guys are able to accomplish, i.e. Black Widow closes the portal, because Hawkeye clears Loki from her tail (and serves him up to the Hulk).  

That stuff works great for me.  If it doesn't for you, well, perhaps I can interest you in something more Dark Knight Rises...?

And don't forget, it's Cap's tactics and strategy that get them all organized so that they're working together and not all off randomly causing mayhem with no real objective.

I think it's been said in this thread before, maybe even by me, but the last fight would have been much improved by the addition of a Lurtz. That is to say, giving the Chitauri a unique looking guy in charge of the invasion force. That gives Cap and the other humans a tangible goal (killing him), an antagonist they can actually fight (as opposed to Loki, who the movie made clear was out of their weight class), and requires very, very little extra time. If you have an establishing shot of a bigger, tougher alien with a metal arm or something, a quick shot of him ordering troops, and then Cap saying "Hey, we should smoke that fool", you improve the final battle immensely in my opinion. As it is, it was hard to feel any investment in what Hawkeye, Cap, and Widow were doing, since the real fights (Thor vs. Loki, Iron Man vs. the dragon, Hulk vs. the entire invasion force) felt much more important.

I dunno, though, I could just be an idiot. After all, I kinda like the beginning of the movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.L. 

I think it's been said in this thread before, maybe even by me, but the last fight would have been much improved by the addition of a Lurtz. That is to say, giving the Chitauri a unique looking guy in charge of the invasion force. That gives Cap and the other humans a tangible goal (killing him), an antagonist they can actually fight (as opposed to Loki, who the movie made clear was out of their weight class), and requires very, very little extra time. If you have an establishing shot of a bigger, tougher alien with a metal arm or something, a quick shot of him ordering troops, and then Cap saying "Hey, we should smoke that fool", you improve the final battle immensely in my opinion. As it is, it was hard to feel any investment in what Hawkeye, Cap, and Widow were doing, since the real fights (Thor vs. Loki, Iron Man vs. the dragon, Hulk vs. the entire invasion force) felt much more important.

I dunno, though, I could just be an idiot. After all, I kinda like the beginning of the movie.

No, I agree with that.  I am surprised that they didn't at least design a "hero" Chitauri to be leading the bank/bomb segment.

Also that they had the Chitauri be concrete-colored when the fight takes place on streets in the middle of the day.  But the sequence is imo still overall the best superhero sequence (only competition being Spiderman 2's train fight) we've ever gotten, so I'm not really complaining.

Oh, certainly, I think the sequence as a whole is great. Exciting, flashy, and badass. I just wanted the Cap part to work a bit better. The bank sequence seemed like the perfect opportunity to give Cap an enemy counterpart, instead it was just kind of there.

I dunno.  While it might've given Cap a prominent sequence, I kinda like that it was just any other attack.  That's the appeal of Evans as Cap.  He'll take on any fight in which people are being bullied. (except ones in IRON MAN 3OHAHHAOHOHAHA!!!)  It doesn't need to be sexy.

The attacks in Iron Man 3 are on the richest superhero in the world, and the president of the United States.  I guess the Mandarin should've picked on someone...his own size?

The appeal of Evans as Cap is that it doesn't need to be sexy, but it always is.

Er, wait

Hm?

No actually I think I stand by that.

I see what you mean about wanting to show Cap willing to take on any fight, though. I just think Cap got kind of gypped in comparison to the other characters in the film overall. Hulk was the star of the last half, Iron Man was the one everybody knew, the bad guy is from Thor, and Hawkeye and Black Widow got something resembling character development.

Really though, now I just kinda want to watch the movie again.

The Hm? was actually directed at Schwartz, though I actually got it now.  Hahahah

What you said?  I totally agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

The attacks in Iron Man 3 are on the richest superhero in the world, and the president of the United States.  I guess the Mandarin should've picked on someone...his own size?

NITPICKERY:  That waitress from Avengers should've been terrorized by the Mandarin!!!!  UGH STUPID MOVIE.  SHAAAAARED UNIVEEEEERSE!!!

Eh, I still like the opening. It has:

-Alexis Denisof chewing the scenery: "And the humans...what can they do...but BURN?"

-Hiddleston entering the movie in a cool way and immediately tearing it up, both literally and figuratively.

-A pretty good car chase and base explosion.

-Establishing the stakes for the rest of what we're about to see.

(shrugzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

C'mon, you can't deny Hiddleston gets a great entrance, what with the memorable "ant boot" comparison that gets brought up later, mind-controlling Hawkeye and Selvig with ease, and killin' a bunch of redshirts.

Hiddleston is always great.

But not enough yet to save the perfunctory nature of the opening at SHIELD.

I suppose it's "perfunctory" in the sense that it's only there to get the pieces moving, which is correct. But it works well enough for me in the direction, acting and action that I don't mind.

BTW, after rewatching the first Iron Man, there's a neat bit of unintentional foreshadowing when JARVIS snarks about readjusting the suit's parameters should Tony ever need to travel into space.

No.  I get what the opening is obligated to do.  But almost everything about it FEELS perfunctory in delivery/attitude/tone.

Nearly as much as TDKR.

You just can't let that go, can ya?

More fun in rewatching Iron Man 1: the discovery that it's a great film and the recent revisionist "oh, it's only good for RDJ" talk is bullshit. Yeah, some of the action doesn't pop as much as later Marvel films, but it's still GOOD action. And everything else about the film barring Ramin Djawadi's perfunctory (see, I can use that word too!) score is excellent.

Honestly, there's a cool little theme Ramin came up with for use when "Tony/Iron Man does something awesome", but apart from that and the scene where he's flying in the Mark II the score is just kinda "there".

'Driving With The Top Down' is aces, the only other bit of music from any Marvel film as good as it is the piece that plays when Thor gets his mojo back and ruins the Destroyer's day, week, month, and year.

I still really like Cap's theme, and the Avengers theme comes to its full glory in the great circling around shot.

I like "The Helicarrier" theme from the Avengers Soundtrack. There's also the cool music that plays while the 9 year old Spy Girl scams Banner into meeting Black Widow. Which is not on the soundtrack. Marvel you racists!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

I don't think the movie strains itself trying to suggest that the "normals" are matching the body counts of the heavy hitters.  But what the script wisely does is provide smaller scale, tangible goals that the little guys are able to accomplish, i.e. Black Widow is closes the portal, because Hawkeye clears Loki from her tail (and serves him up to the Hulk).  

 

That stuff works great for me.  If it doesn't for you, well, perhaps I can interest you in something more Dark Knight Rises...?

I think you nailed it, and it sort of makes the team slot into the roles of a larger fighting force (infantry, artillery etc. etc.). Cap/Hawkeye/Widow may not deal as much damage as the other members, but there's a reason you don't just throw a bunch of tanks at the enemy and hope for the best.