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Why 'The Avengers' Is Probably Bad For Us: A Nerd's Lament - Page 2

post #51 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post

Jesus, Jaquio, it's May. The movie experiences you're pining for do not come traditionally come out in May.

 

That's entirely beside the point: I'm not singling out this one year specifically. I'm singling out the last decent chunk of year worth of mainstream cinema in general. This is way more of an overall lament of an entire era rather than zeroing in on this particular year (with stuff like Cabin in the Woods and Prometheus and the like cementing it as a HUGE improvement over other years already, but that still doesn't fully heal over some of the wounds of great shit within the past half-decade+ that I totally missed out on in theaters for not good reason other than distribution has gone to shit as of late.

 

I've still even had great theatrical experiences within those years of the kind I craved, they were just noticeably WAY more fewer and farther between in comparison to earlier years.

post #52 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

 

I think this thread comes down to two questions...

1) Is "The Avengers" not juvenile entertainment*?

2) Is the word "franchise" inherently negative?

 

 

Sure, it's juvenile if you go with a definition of 'juvenile' that covers all genres and styles designed for entertainment over high-art concerns. That includes (Again, your mileage may vary based on perception) most sci-fi and fantasy, action/adventure, comic book movies (Which as I was saying above, I think have become in cinematic terms an extension of action/adventure), a lot of comedies, rom-coms etc, etc. These things have dominated mainstream cinemagoing forever, and I don't really get this idea that one comic movie that's done exceptionally well, out of all the other movies of the type above that have also done exceptionally well in recent years, is suddenly the death-knell for intelligent cinema or is going banish it from projectors for good.

 

To me, this seems to be the first case in a while (The last time probably being TDK, and before that LOTR) where a geek property has not just been successful, but made a significant dent on the popular consciousness as a whole. 'Game-changer'? Well no, it's an exceptionally successful example in a genre that tends to have a lot of very successful films. Maybe we've all gotten a bit spoilt with the mainstream crowd taking 'our' stuff seriously, or are we all getting a bit hipster about all this stuff? That's not a dig at any one person in particular; we've been hearing a lot of this 'manchild handwringing' stuff over the last few days. What makes me wonder is, where was everyone lamenting our cultural immaturity when John Carter came out? Or that last Conan movie? Or fuck it, even Avatar, which WAS a global megasmash and which everyone seems to agree had even less depth than The Avengers?

 

Oh, and franchises are just fine. Except when they suck.

post #53 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workyticket View Post

What makes me wonder is, where was everyone lamenting our cultural immaturity when John Carter came out? Or that last Conan movie? Or fuck it, even Avatar, which WAS a global megasmash and which everyone seems to agree had even less depth than The Avengers?

 

Oh I did PLENTY of "lamenting of cultural immaturity" for Avatar at least when that came out and hit it big. That was totally inex-fucking-plicable to me on just about every front due to the incredibly forced marketing and inorganic "phenomenon" that sprung around it (it felt like the marketing suits literally WILLED that film into a mega success) and more-transparent-than-usual shallowness of it; I couldn't believe people seemed to develop mass amnesia and seemed to forget that Disney's Pocahontas, Dances With Wolves, and FernGully (to name but a few well worn examples) had all already happened and told variations on this EXACT same story, and that story sucked just as much ass equally in nearly all of those instances, and all it seemed to take was a shallow 3D gimmick, space marines, some incredibly unimaginative, generic, and indistinctive (and just plain ugly and stupid looking) alien designs, and the marketing suits chanting the meaningless phrase "game changer" over and over again until people started mindlessly repeating it and buying into it like brainwashed zombies to get that many asses in seats. That had to have been the single most forced, inorganic "cultural phenomenon" I'd ever witnessed in my life, or at lest within the last decade.

 

Worth noting here that "white man of modern civilization infiltrates but then becomes surrogate member of misunderstood, noble savage people of the wild and must defend them from ignorant other white men from his home faction, while blossoming a romance with one of the female natives to the chagrin of one of her own suitors of her people" is about my single most least favorite and most disrespected and despised of hackneyed stock storylines of all time. The fact that Cameron had the gall to flog THAT one out (and fucking VERBATIM too) and that so many people lapped it up like catnip after the proven lameness of it in so many other cases prior just left me slack-jawed in wonderment at the new low just reached in gullibility of modern audiences.

post #54 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workyticket View Post
'manchild handwringing'

It's not enough that we have guilty pleasures but we have to feel bad about the stuff that's executed well too? White People Problems. ;)

 

How many of the top BO earners of all time are family flicks/franchises? Most of them, right? Par for the course. If the youth demographic determines and drives film culture, is THE AVENGERS' success surprising? If we don't get serious takes like Nolan's Bat-verse or Academy recognition like PJ's LOTR trilogy will our subgenres return to the Sat morning kiddie ghetto? Did they ever leave in the first place? Does it matter?

 

Is this a closet "I've Outgrown Superheroes" thread?


Edited by DARKMITE8 - 5/7/12 at 11:41pm
post #55 of 196

I think there needs to be a line drawn in the sand between peoples definitions of "juvenile" when talking about entertainment and simply "mass market/for everyone" entertainment.

 

Shakespeare was entertainment for the masses when it was first performed lets not forget.

post #56 of 196

Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post

Remember when you could enjoy more indie adult films at the theater? Now there's an app for that.

 

 

Call me old fashioned if you want, but I was a LOT happier with just the theater. I don't consider that particular specific change "progress". I call that "Thanks for partially taking away from me something I sorta held dear for no good goddamned reason whatsoever." 

 

And YES I know for the 40th goddamned time that these smaller, non-tentpole films aren't DENIED to me outright thanks to Netflix and so on, but that ain't the fucking point here. Increasingly shittier theatrical distribution and whatnot IS the fucking point. I wanna see this stuff in theaters, and a LOT of this stuff I probably would have if this were even the early-most 2000's, never mind the fucking 70's, 80's, or 90's.

 

I see that as a REGRESSION of a simple, basic fucking pleasure in modern life made watered down, NOT "progress".

 

And as for the "white people problems" remark earlier: please. I know we have a political and religious forum, but this is primarily a movie website first and foremost, and this is a movie related issue. Sorry I didn't bring this same level of impassioned argument to the "economy; oops" thread or what have you. I barely have the energy and wherewithal these days to talk about something as inconsequential to mankind's survival as film; the political and religious forums would just snap my already overtaxed and frayed brain in twain. I know you didn't mean any harm by the remark and that there's no way you could've known, but really please do excuse me for having personal problems going on in my real life that are occupying my mind primarily and which are ANYTHING other than "white people problems".

 

By that above token and as far as this thread's concerned I'm simply letting off a little harmless steam on what I damn well recognize to be a VERY minor issue (in the grand scheme of things) that's just one more nagging irritant happening during a particularly shitty period of my life. With things as bad as they are, I'd LIKE to indulge in one of my favorite childhood pastimes, which was seeing weird, envelope-pushing, sometimes challenging art films (or just plain simple mid range adult dramas/thrillers) in theaters, and that in the midst of all this shit going on I don't even get THAT stupid fucking luxury (and rather have to deal primarily with my LEAST favorite type of film of all time: kid and family friendly fluff) is more than a bit vexing.

 

I hardly see it as a huge leap to vent that minor little movie-related frustration on a movie website. My biggest crime evidently though, as stated, is that I picked the opening weekend of The Avengers to do it. Which yeah, was probably a stupid-ass fucking move on my end. Well that, and for just being a dumbass in general, but that's par for the course from me.


Edited by Jaquio - 5/8/12 at 1:51am
post #57 of 196

You stated an opinion.  People are disagreeing with that opinion.  Come down off the cross and join the way discussion works.

post #58 of 196

Juvenile isn't the right word, in my opinion.  This is an interesting thread, but I can't help but see some of it as "I want what I want, when I want, and that is what they should make."  People go to movies for lots of reasons.  Many people live a life of depth in their job, in their friends, or through books.  Movies to them are just shiny entertainments.  They aren't as dedicated as the folks that populate these boards.  They will never be, and most importantly, they don't want to be.  They still lead full happy lives, and they like to go to movies for two hours of silly fun.  Shouldn't they be serviced?  I don't want their choices taken away and mine given priority.  I don't want any diminishment in options, for anyone.  Not even the Twilight crowd or the romcom crowd.

 

I'm not going to run over my favorite movies to try and drum up some nerd cachet.  I love movies, I love the experience of them, and I try to love as many of them as will let me, for as many reasons as I can.  I agree that nostalgia is typically a cynical crutch, but like any tool, it can be used right. 

 

I don't regret The Avengers at any level.  As with any truly good blockbuster, it did surprise me.  Perhaps not in any macro way, but it surprised me with small lines, with fun character beats, and with a flying aircraft carrier.  You could argue the theme of the film is about how we need each other, and we need to recognize that.  Power isn't a balm for loneliness.  It doesn't beat you over the head with it, but it's there.

 

Films can be so many things.  Let us celebrate when they are really good at something, even if it may not be OUR favorite thing about the medium.

post #59 of 196

Oops, I never addressed the "juvenile" bit, which is why I started the post in the first place.  It got away from me.

 

As I enter my late thirties, you know what I love?  Feeling the same joy I could feel when I was 10.  Not all the time, mind you.  And I am very thankful that I can enjoy things now that I never understood at 10 years of age.  But the reward for getting older is having a wider range of experiences to draw from when reading a book or watching a movie/show or listening to a story - I don't want to cut off old ones to make room for the new ones.

 

If juvenile means it tickles that place again, then I am all for juvenile. 

 

I agree with some of the CHUD critics in this thread who feel that they sometimes feel drowning in nostalgia (which is what studios attempt in order to shortcut to that emotion).  They cater to it more now than ever, and often clumsily and poorly.  But as I said earlier, it is a powerful tool for someone who uses it well.  I think The Avengers did that.  I think Pixar does it.

post #60 of 196

There's a difference between something that simply mines nostalgia for one's childhood and something that makes you feel like that kid again.  TRON Legacy is the former; The Avengers is the latter.

post #61 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post

 

Is this a closet "I've Outgrown Superheroes" thread?

No, feels more like a "I never needed superheroes" thread for some. Sprang from the brow of Zeus full-formed and ready for Truffaut, they did.

post #62 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaquio View Post

And as for the "white people problems" remark earlier: please. I know we have a political and religious forum, but this is primarily a movie website first and foremost, and this is a movie related issue. Sorry I didn't bring this same level of impassioned argument to the "economy; oops" thread or what have you. I barely have the energy and wherewithal these days to talk about something as inconsequential to mankind's survival as film; the political and religious forums would just snap my already overtaxed and frayed brain in twain.

Oh, I'm not saying spend your energy discussing something "more worthwhile", instead of silly movies. Not at all. I know where I am. I just think it's humorous that in "anything/anytime/anywhere" world we live in where we are constantly being bombarded by endless entertainment (of various medium, genres, styles, and levels of quality) in so many forms, it's still not enough. You want to harp on the merits of a specific film? Sure. But I don't think the sky's falling. And certainly not because the mainstream enjoyed a good time made by a good film-maker. Granted, I hear you and recognize that your specific preferred avenue for distribution has changed much in the past couple decades. But I tell you what... 50% of the films I've seen in the theaters in the past few years were sub-par, overpriced, and distracting experiences (the experience, not necessarily the movie). Any quiet moment in any film I see is usually interrupted by chatting teens, etc. It's gotten to the point that I only want to see wall-to-wall WHIZBANG in the theaters to drown out the jerks who can't stay off their phone. I'm at a point in my life where my money and time is EXTREMELY valuable. And my TV/Blu setup is decent.

 

I'm thinking you need to reserve some of that energy and movie to a metropolis with more than just a strip mall multi-plex, if it's causing so much strife. :)

post #63 of 196

Jacquio, sorry if you're feeling attacked by the responses here, but if it's possible I think you may have over-explained your position.  You've addressed several inter-related but distinct issues (the effect of streaming on nation/worldwide theatrical distribution models vs your particular town's theater situation vs the juvenalization of culture vs. nostalgia as the driving force of Hollywood), and while I know your intent was simply to explain yourself fully and I can see how one easily bleeds into the next, the effect is that it starts to come off as all-purpose whinging.  Which, when added to this thread's title singling out the current belle of the ball, has turned a lot of people off.

 

To pick on one of these issues, you seem to be bemoaning that technological innovations (since you don't want to call it progress) have led to a generation of kids and man-kids who simply expect to have exactly the entertainment they want delivered to whatever format is most convenient whenever they want.  And this is a problem, because it interferes with the type of entertainment you want being conveniently available in the format you prefer.


Edited by Schwartz - 5/8/12 at 9:00am
post #64 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

To pick on one of these issues, you seem to be bemoaning that technological innovations (since you don't want to call it progress) have led to a generation kids and man-kids who simply expect to have exactly the entertainment they want delivered to whatever format is most convenient whenever they want.  And this is a problem, because it interferes with the type of entertainment you want being conveniently available in the format you prefer.

 

This is spot on. You're complaining about how fanboys getting to have their every id-fuelled whim catered to is interfering with your ability to see the movies you want to see in the format you want to see them in. The irony is about as subtle as Mjolnir.

post #65 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Jacquio, sorry if you're feeling attacked by the responses here, but if it's possible I think you may have over-explained your position.  You've addressed several inter-related but distinct issues (the effect of streaming on nation/worldwide theatrical distribution models vs your particular town's theater situation vs the juvenalization of culture vs. nostalgia as the driving force of Hollywood), and while I know your intent was simply to explain yourself fully and I can see how one easily bleeds into the next, the effect is that it starts to come off as all-purpose whinging.  Which, when added to this thread's title singling out the current belle of the ball, has turned a lot of people off.

 

To pick on one of these issues, you seem to be bemoaning that technological innovations (since you don't want to call it progress) have led to a generation of kids and man-kids who simply expect to have exactly the entertainment they want delivered to whatever format is most convenient whenever they want.  And this is a problem, because it interferes with the type of entertainment you want being conveniently available in the format you prefer.

This unpalatability is compounded when some of us are already familiar with Jaquio's work in the Video Games threads, where he's basically mining the same "ain't what it used to be" vibe by telling every game with more than two buttons to go fuck itself. 

post #66 of 196

Phfft Video Games went to hell after the Atari 2600.

 

What bugs me about this thread is that it presents us with a zero sum game: The success of the Avengers = less interest/studio interest/public adoration of smaller, more Art centric films. And I'm saying that is not true. At all. In fact I'd venture to say that the films coming to us from Asia, France, even the USA are as good if not better than the vaunted 70's Auteur Era films.

 

Richard Dickson was not being hyperbolic about Jaws etc. ( To Gabe) Go back and read the critic's reactions to all the movies he lists; in every case they were harbingers of the End of Intelligent Cinema.


Edited by Cylon Baby - 5/8/12 at 7:43pm
post #67 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

This unpalatability is compounded when some of us are already familiar with Jaquio's work in the Video Games threads, where he's basically mining the same "ain't what it used to be" vibe by telling every game with more than two buttons to go fuck itself. 

 

I did no such thing. At all. I specifically went and cited two fairly recent-ish PS2 and Xbox games as being phenomenal, and would've gladly participated WAY more in the 2000's gaming thread with FURTHER examples were it not for the simple fucking fact that I was in a goddamned hospital for almost two fucking weeks after that. So I'm very sorry that I didn't get the chance to expound at further length about other later-gen games that I loved like the Gungrave games and God Hand on PS2 and whatnot.

 
But please feel free to drag in totally unrelated things I've said in totally unrelated threads to make my point look bad. I'm getting the picture now that I ALREADY made a bad point here to begin with as someone (who I'll be quoting and commenting on below in a moment) very elegantly, politely, and thoughtfully pointed out, and without resorting to unnecessary cheap shots like this.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post

There's a difference between something that simply mines nostalgia for one's childhood and something that makes you feel like that kid again.  TRON Legacy is the former; The Avengers is the latter.

 

 

If this helps express where I'm coming from more clearly, I don't WANT to be made to "feel like a kid again". That's NEVER why I went to movies (or read books or listened to music or consumed any other form of art or media) and has NEVER been what I looked for and got out of almost ANY of them. Being a kid, if you ask me, sucks and is INCREDIBLY overrated. I've very little love for that sort of thing and have had little use for it, and always have even when I was a kid. Once again, I'm legitimately, sincerely sorry if that viewpoint offends people here.

 

And I wasn't "putting myself up on a cross" by calling myself a dumbass. As difficult as this may be to believe, I DO in fact legitimately, no-bullshit consider myself to be pretty damned stupid, and its one of the factors that's intimidated me (and still does) from posting here. I'm well aware and have been from moment one that I'm WAY out of my intellectual league here among some of you guys. Its a paralyzing fear to open your mouth when you're in that sort of environment and your as self-aware of your own intellectual limitations as I am. That I've posted as much as I have in the last couple of months is frankly a tad miraculous (and I mainly have one or two people in the chat to thank for talking me into it, so if some of you here find my presence shrill and irritating, take it up with them). I've lurked here for MANY years, and I NEVER thought in a billion years I'd grow the guts needed to actually interact among some of you.

 

But by that same token, perhaps I should've listened to my fear and instinct and just kept my mouth shut. Case in point;

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

To pick on one of these issues, you seem to be bemoaning that technological innovations (since you don't want to call it progress) have led to a generation of kids and man-kids who simply expect to have exactly the entertainment they want delivered to whatever format is most convenient whenever they want.  And this is a problem, because it interferes with the type of entertainment you want being conveniently available in the format you prefer.

 

 

He's right on the money. Schwartz just unraveled my ENTIRE point in this thread as me being petty and, even worse, hypocritical; two things I had absolutely NO intention of being and had NO idea whatsoever that I was being. But now that I look at it from that angle, he's right and I'm (once again) a proven dipshit. 

 

In my defense, simply because my "over-explaining myself" may COME OFF as whining doesn't mean that that's what I was setting out to do. Cause... well, I wasn't.

 

And the final nail in this particular coffin (and a point I already made myself several posts back to boot):

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Which, when added to this thread's title singling out the current belle of the ball, has turned a lot of people off.

 

And therein lies the keystone issue as to why this whole issue was a bad idea to raise in the first place.

 

Lock this fucker down. I'm a putz.

post #68 of 196

I will concede that you didn't specifically mention videogames when you went on a solipsistic rant against "nerd culture" in the video game forum. That is my error. The level of venom directed against nobody in particular and the repeated references to your desire for self-harm and the end of civilization are, however, available to be seen. You even mention how at CHUD you didn't expect a fair shake.

 

When you get pissed off, you sound like a troll.

 

You're here, after all, so I think we have more in common than not. But leave out the drama.

post #69 of 196

Jacquio, I wasn't trying to run anyone off.  But I think your general venting detracted from your main point.  Not that I agree with your main point, but I think everyone is prone to inflating something that bothers them personally into an unprecedented shift from How Things Used To Be from time to time.  It's comforting on some level to imagine that we'd be just fine or somehow more satisfied at another time/place, and it's just these crazy/stupid/horrible times that are fucking us up.

 

There's a great adult dramatic film about this impulse from a few years back that actually penetrated the public consciousness to at least a moderate degree (No Country For Old Men).


Edited by Schwartz - 5/9/12 at 2:05pm
post #70 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaquio View Post

If this helps express where I'm coming from more clearly, I don't WANT to be made to "feel like a kid again". That's NEVER why I went to movies (or read books or listened to music or consumed any other form of art or media) and has NEVER been what I looked for and got out of almost ANY of them. Being a kid, if you ask me, sucks and is INCREDIBLY overrated. I've very little love for that sort of thing and have had little use for it, and always have even when I was a kid. 

 

Well then I feel truly sorry for you.  Because I LOVED being a kid.  I didn't know about box office or production deals.  I didn't know which star was banging which other star and which one was getting her tits out by accident.  I didn't know a matte painting from a process shot from a dolly zoom.  There were no spoilers or script reviews.  All I knew was that there were these amazing giant images flashing up on the screen showing me things I'd never seen before, which took residence in my imagination so deeply that I could close my eyes and see them just as vividely as if it was the first time.  It was big and loud and special, and I loved it not because of the deep intellectual thoughts I could attach to what I was seeing, or the historical and social context into which I could place it.  I loved it because it was amazing.  And I will cherish any film that makes me feel that way again, where I drop all analytical pretenses, just sit back and say, "Goddamn that was good."

post #71 of 196

I didn't particularly love being a kid either, but I DO enjoy movies that take me back to the stage in my life where I can just accept things as cool, enjoy them, even analyze them within their own context ( I think this is part of what drives so many Tolkien and Star Wars nerds).

 

I loved The Avengers because it replicated the experience (for me) of running into the local Comic Store to get the latest issues OMG before it sold out so I could find out what happened!

 

And here's the thing: I also experience that same suspension of disbelief, losing myself in the film, whatever you want to call it, watching No Country for Old Men, or Apocalypse Now, or Of Gods and Men.

 

Seems to me that Art can manifest at the highest intellectual levels OR at the level of a child or teenager.

 

Also, what Dickson said.

post #72 of 196
Thread Starter 

When you're an adult, you get to drink, smoke and fuck all you like.

You also have a greater understanding of what's going on around you and, more importantly the knowledge (and sometimes the ability), to change it.

 

Wanting to me a child just strikes me as wanting to be ignorant. Which is reasonable sometimes in the case of movies, but not all that often. Life is pretty stressful, but unless you're a heart surgeon or world leader, I don't see the benefits of being turned into a drooling idiot who just likes shiny things. Which is what most of us were until our late teens, most likely.

 

Being an adult > being a kid. And yes, I will be super judgy about that viewpoint.

post #73 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

When you're an adult, you get to drink, smoke and fuck all you like.

You also have a greater understanding of what's going on around you and, more importantly the knowledge (and sometimes the ability), to change it.

 

Wanting to me a child just strikes me as wanting to be ignorant. Which is reasonable sometimes in the case of movies, but not all that often. Life is pretty stressful, but unless you're a heart surgeon or world leader, I don't see the benefits of being turned into a drooling idiot who just likes shiny things. Which is what most of us were until our late teens, most likely.

 

Being an adult > being a kid. And yes, I will be super judgy about that viewpoint.

 

Is any one here actually advocating becoming a child again? Not that I can tell. But trying to recapture that innocence a couple of hours at a time is not a terrible thing... unless it's all you choose to do.

post #74 of 196

Yeah I think there's a difference between wanting to feel a few hours of the unfettered, unbridled excitement and high emotion that used to be the day to day par for the course of growing up and being this guy...

 

diaper.jpg

 

...and I think its disingenious and intellectually dishonest to try and conflate the two.

 

That said, some people just don't have an inner child I've realised. Like, at all. Like the mum from Miracle On 34th Street.

 

So we may be doing the equivilent of trying to explain to a synthetic what these things called 'emotions' are going down this discussion path.

post #75 of 196

Yeah, I wasn't talking about being a kid again.  I was talking about not trying so hard to show everyone how grown up you are that you don't have room for a sense of wonder.  So that when you see this big, glorious, goddamn fun movie, you don't start navel-gazing about what it all means.

 

And please, no one start in on, "Way to lead the unexamined life."  I'm not talking about doing this with every single film you see.

post #76 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

When you're an adult, you get to drink, smoke and fuck all you like.

You also have a greater understanding of what's going on around you and, more importantly the knowledge (and sometimes the ability), to change it.

 

Wanting to me a child just strikes me as wanting to be ignorant. Which is reasonable sometimes in the case of movies, but not all that often. Life is pretty stressful, but unless you're a heart surgeon or world leader, I don't see the benefits of being turned into a drooling idiot who just likes shiny things. Which is what most of us were until our late teens, most likely.

 

Being an adult > being a kid. And yes, I will be super judgy about that viewpoint.

 

 

You fuck that Straw Man UP Gabe!

post #77 of 196
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

Yeah I think there's a difference between wanting to feel a few hours of the unfettered, unbridled excitement and high emotion that used to be the day to day par for the course of growing up

For some people. Not all.

post #78 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

... fuck all you like.

 

Often with a partner.

post #79 of 196

And Jesus, some of you must have had childhoods straight out of a Dickens novel if you're that down on having once been a kid.  Either that or you were all fucking Schroeder at his piano and just abvove it all.

post #80 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post

And Jesus, some of you must have had childhoods straight out of a Dickens novel if you're that down on having once been a kid.  Either that or you were all fucking Schroeder at his piano and just abvove it all.

 

You're gonna take all my rep at this rate Rich.

post #81 of 196
Thread Starter 

Dickson, your condescension has no place in this conversation.

 

Yeah, empty spectacle simplifies everything and creates some approximation of youthful wonderment. But look around you... are we lacking in entertainment meant to bring the kid out of us? Is the world really suffering for lack of "escapist" entertainment? I don't even know if some people understand what they're escaping from!

 

This sort of movies/television/music/whatever designed to bring out a more simplistic worldview in us (the oohs and aahs) have wallpapered pop culture. Superhero cinema of the last ten years needs create space (I hope it has) for escapism FROM escapism.

 

It's not feeding a need, it's over-proliferation. When I was a kid (and this is anecdotal, and understandably not a theory or ironclad thesis or any shit like that), I sat around with friends, and we daydreamed movies about our favorite comic book characters. After fancasting them like maniacs, we eventually slumped our shoulders and said, ah, Hollywood will never make those. No adult in their right mind would go to a "superhero" movie that wasn't Superman or Batman. Maybe Spider-Man. Why? Because these characters, at their core, lack substance, growth, intellectual content of any type. Once you get past the origin, it's just repetitive punch-out material, with a pause for some amazing artwork (sure to never be replicated in film form) and one or two interesting, low-key stories that could never fuel a blockbuster.

 

And there's where we are now, with repetitive punch-out material. Sure, guys like Joss Whedon season the steak with all sorts of goodies, but it's the same slab of beef. Last summer, there was a sharp downturn in blockbusters, and people specifically pointed at the only so-so superhero box office results to suggest we were close to a rewriting of the blockbuster paradigm. "Avengers" just assured us, nope, Business as usual.

 

We're not short of films, stories and sometimes shows for adults. But are they standalone great shows, purposeful reactions to the emptiness of most movies and shows, or just plain anomalies? I always fear it is the last option, great works teetering over the ledge because of non-creative micromanagers behind the scenes (Marvel, AMC, etc.) and a forever shrinking audience (again, the "good films of 1995" = "the boutique films of 2012").

 

I enjoyed "Avengers" but it exists in a bubble, one designed to produce endless similar adventures both before and after the film. It's the Five Buck Box of movies, and it's about time we had a purge of sorts, no?

post #82 of 196

Christ Gabe.

post #83 of 196

So, wait, I'm childish and retrograde for loving The Avengers? Who's being condescending now? 

post #84 of 196
Thread Starter 

I think some are mistaking their primal emotions for feelings of significance.

What you "love" is never up for debate. What anybody "loves" is their business.

But if movies were just about "things we like" there would be no message boards.

We're not debating why anyone would like or dislike The Avengers. We're debating the worth of films like it in the popular discussion, in culture as a whole. As art. As something that means more than the instant gratification we feel when Iron Man blasts something, or the Hulk roars.

post #85 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

Dickson, my condescension has no place in this conversation.

 

Fixed for accuracy!

post #86 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

 

We're not short of films, stories and sometimes shows for adults. But are they standalone great shows, purposeful reactions to the emptiness of most movies and shows, or just plain anomalies? I always fear it is the last option, great works teetering over the ledge because of non-creative micromanagers behind the scenes (Marvel, AMC, etc.) and a forever shrinking audience (again, the "good films of 1995" = "the boutique films of 2012").

 

I enjoyed "Avengers" but it exists in a bubble, one designed to produce endless similar adventures both before and after the film. It's the Five Buck Box of movies, and it's about time we had a purge of sorts, no?

I have no idea what you are asking/demanding here. That Art films be franchises? And do a casual scan of New Releases on Netflix. There are DOZENS of GREAT films, films that meet anyone's criteria of Art, released just last year, never mind looking at the whole decade just past.

 

Are you complaining that those Art Films don't draw the same audience numbers as Avengers? In what universe would that happen?

post #87 of 196

Yeah seriously, Avengers is no more art than a new brand of toaster is. Its a brand designed to return profit on a major investment by high powered corporations.

 

If there's some enjoyment to be had with it, that's a bonus, but it's not the intention of the people fronting the cash for these blockbuster babies.

post #88 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

It's not feeding a need, it's over-proliferation. When I was a kid (and this is anecdotal, and understandably not a theory or ironclad thesis or any shit like that), I sat around with friends, and we daydreamed movies about our favorite comic book characters. After fancasting them like maniacs, we eventually slumped our shoulders and said, ah, Hollywood will never make those. No adult in their right mind would go to a "superhero" movie that wasn't Superman or Batman. Maybe Spider-Man. Why? Because these characters, at their core, lack substance, growth, intellectual content of any type. Once you get past the origin, it's just repetitive punch-out material, with a pause for some amazing artwork (sure to never be replicated in film form) and one or two interesting, low-key stories that could never fuel a blockbuster.

 

 

When you were a kid, you had surprisingly sober and analytical discussions of the depth of comic book characterization as it relates to adults' expectations of maturity and complexity from Hollywood filmmaking.

post #89 of 196

Seriously Gabe - are you in a bad place right now? You always seem to go on these rants against generalised something-or-others when you are.

post #90 of 196
Thread Starter 

You don't need to be a Rhodes scholar to realize the public won't go for two Ghost Rider movies within a ten year period, Schwartz.

post #91 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

You don't need to be a Rhodes scholar to realize the public won't go for two Ghost Rider movies within a ten year period, Schwartz.

 

But Gabe, what is your point exactly?

 

Can you sum it up for us mouth-breathers that like clapping at things going boom while playing with our action figures?

post #92 of 196
Thread Starter 

To Rain Dog... The modern breed of blockbuster has no "there" there. But we pretend otherwise, based on the aesthetics of Popular Commercial Filmmaking, which is something of a genre now (just as "good movies" are a genre). Aside from "what are your favorite parts" there's nothing to chew on in "The Avengers" other than the child-like moral of working together and making sacrifices for the greater good.

 

This is a naked commercial cash grab, given a steady, clear-headed approach by Joss Whedon, a guy who didn't build the boat, but brings a certain sane stewardship to his position. Good for him, good for Marvel. But are we rewarding The Avengers for what it is (predictable action spectacular) or what it ISN'T (stupid, sexist, racist, incoherent).

 

The definitions of BAD movies has changed. It used to be a question of skill level, as entire generations of filmmakers didn't have film schools, or the proper tech, or even VHS/DVD's to study. Filmmakers weren't cinephiles, for the most part - they directed based on instinct, on passion. That resulted in some pretty idiosyncratic stuff, unusual, unpredictable far. Sometimes, these movies would even have naked commercial appeal, despite being crooked, sideways.

 

Now, every yokel behind the camera for a studio film knows HOW to make a movie, but they don't know WHY. That results in the impersonal, style-less blockbuster than "The Avengers" announces is GOOD cinema. Few film people can find a single sentence, positive or negative, from a critic talking about this film's values that goes beyond hyperbole.

 

This has become the ACCEPTED vocabulary, for better or worse, and in most cases, worse. Stuff like "Inception" is considered "personal filmmaking" despite specifically borrowing the visual language of a number of different action films. And as the film world expands, I cannot help but think it's moving forward in only one direction, the one allowing bigger box office receipts every weekend for empty-headed spectacles.

 

In the other direction, there are smaller films, which of course will always keep getting made and keep showing up on Netflix. But the margin for error is much more limited - great films no longer have their outlets, they're merely being willed into existence by fluky occurances, determined once-in-a-lifetime filmmakers, and ocassionally a fairy godmother (Megan Ellison?) with a philanthropic heart. The market is shrinking for these films, loudly, noticably. Indie distributors rise up every once in awhile, but there are just as many that die on the vine. And we're not talking fly-by-night operations, but shingles like Clooney and Soderbergh's Section 8, a money loser they closed right before they ran out of luck, with an entire ledger of interesting, adult fare that lost money.

 

I do think the film world is finite, and with exciting new voices picking up cameras every day, I don't know if it can accomodate smaller, more distinct, unusual films in a world where you slap a cape on someone and guarantee an opening weekend of nine figures. Of course, it's not so literal that the latest Abbas Kiarostami film is going to lose funding because someone wanted to bankroll more superhero films. It's because of the continued endorsement not only of empty-headed blockbusters, but big films made that devalue individualism, personality, experimentation, which will lead to sacrifices being made on the business end.

 

In other words, right now there is room for The Avengers, and great movies made for adults. I worry how long this will last, and no, I don't believe in the trickle-down affect that allows Disney to take more risks because stuff like The Avengers makes $200 million.

 

Oh, and by the way, an official fuck you to the first person who replies to this with some snarky tl;dr joke.

post #93 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

You don't need to be a Rhodes scholar to realize the public won't go for two Ghost Rider movies within a ten year period, Schwartz.

 

And now you're on to insulting Nic Cage's intelligence.  For shame.  I'll have you know that between those Ghost Rider flicks he produced multiple movies where he saved the world with MATH.

 

Edit: Fuck me!

post #94 of 196
Thread Starter 

How dare you twist my words. I would never say a bad word about Nicolas Cage. He has THE KNOWING.

post #95 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

And now you're on to insulting Nic Cage's intelligence.  For shame.  I'll have you know that between those Ghost Rider flicks he produced multiple movies where he saved the world with MATH.

Used a magic seven and everything...

213
post #96 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

When you get pissed off, you sound like a troll.

 

You're here, after all, so I think we have more in common than not. But leave out the drama.

 

Absolutely NONE of these things (trolling and drama) were intended in a SINGLE word of my posts. I've severe issues with my own overall generation and age bracket that causes me to largely despise them and view them as backwards-looking, regressive, hypocritical shitheads of the highest magnitude, so those things I may vent about: but they'e as you said to "no one in particular". Nobody here on this particular forum is getting singled out. Hell, a giant percentage of people on this forum if anything are the direct ANTITHESIS of the kinds of people my bile is directed at, which is why I frequent this place AT ALL to begin with. Most of my venom and malice has been brought about from people I've have to deal with in real life as well as the internet over a period of several years now. I'm not out to "troll" ANYONE on this forum. And the DEAD LAST thing I want to do is incite the slightest whit of drama. If I EVER do ANY of those things even accidentally, I'll happily ban myself and save Nick or whomever the trouble.

 

About the main problem here is that I have viewpoints and opinions regarding general things about the superhero and childhood nostalgia-dominated popculture of the present that clash against the mass euphoric nerdgasm that was brought about by the Avengers. My biggest crime here I think is shitty timing to bring any of this crap up. My second biggest is perhaps not wording my thoughts as well as I could have (in spite of my best efforts: there's that unavoidable "me being an idiot" elephant in the room once again).

post #97 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

To Rain Dog... The modern breed of blockbuster has no "there" there. But we pretend otherwise, based on the aesthetics of Popular Commercial Filmmaking, which is something of a genre now (just as "good movies" are a genre). Aside from "what are your favorite parts" there's nothing to chew on in "The Avengers" other than the child-like moral of working together and making sacrifices for the greater good.

 

This is a naked commercial cash grab, given a steady, clear-headed approach by Joss Whedon, a guy who didn't build the boat, but brings a certain sane stewardship to his position. Good for him, good for Marvel. But are we rewarding The Avengers for what it is (predictable action spectacular) or what it ISN'T (stupid, sexist, racist, incoherent).

 

The definitions of BAD movies has changed. It used to be a question of skill level, as entire generations of filmmakers didn't have film schools, or the proper tech, or even VHS/DVD's to study. Filmmakers weren't cinephiles, for the most part - they directed based on instinct, on passion. That resulted in some pretty idiosyncratic stuff, unusual, unpredictable far. Sometimes, these movies would even have naked commercial appeal, despite being crooked, sideways.

 

Now, every yokel behind the camera for a studio film knows HOW to make a movie, but they don't know WHY. That results in the impersonal, style-less blockbuster than "The Avengers" announces is GOOD cinema. Few film people can find a single sentence, positive or negative, from a critic talking about this film's values that goes beyond hyperbole.

 

This has become the ACCEPTED vocabulary, for better or worse, and in most cases, worse. Stuff like "Inception" is considered "personal filmmaking" despite specifically borrowing the visual language of a number of different action films. And as the film world expands, I cannot help but think it's moving forward in only one direction, the one allowing bigger box office receipts every weekend for empty-headed spectacles.

 

In the other direction, there are smaller films, which of course will always keep getting made and keep showing up on Netflix. But the margin for error is much more limited - great films no longer have their outlets, they're merely being willed into existence by fluky occurances, determined once-in-a-lifetime filmmakers, and ocassionally a fairy godmother (Megan Ellison?) with a philanthropic heart. The market is shrinking for these films, loudly, noticably. Indie distributors rise up every once in awhile, but there are just as many that die on the vine. And we're not talking fly-by-night operations, but shingles like Clooney and Soderbergh's Section 8, a money loser they closed right before they ran out of luck, with an entire ledger of interesting, adult fare that lost money.

 

I do think the film world is finite, and with exciting new voices picking up cameras every day, I don't know if it can accomodate smaller, more distinct, unusual films in a world where you slap a cape on someone and guarantee an opening weekend of nine figures. Of course, it's not so literal that the latest Abbas Kiarostami film is going to lose funding because someone wanted to bankroll more superhero films. It's because of the continued endorsement not only of empty-headed blockbusters, but big films made that devalue individualism, personality, experimentation, which will lead to sacrifices being made on the business end.

 

In other words, right now there is room for The Avengers, and great movies made for adults. I worry how long this will last, and no, I don't believe in the trickle-down affect that allows Disney to take more risks because stuff like The Avengers makes $200 million.

 

Oh, and by the way, an official fuck you to the first person who replies to this with some snarky tl;dr joke.

 

 

Honestly Gabe correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like your deeper issue is with the march of free market corporatised capitalism and its influence on modern culture causing the devaluation of anything that doesn't have a dollar sign attached to it or generate a profit for shareholders.

 

All art is falling by the wayside in the face of this spiritual and emotional devaluation of modern western culture, modern Hollywood film-making being a pretty decent micrcosm of the problem.

 

But your beef seems to really be with the devaluation of meaning in the modern world and the corporatocracies pushing of empty materialism and consumerism as acceptable replacements for these.

 

The high priests of The Almighty Free Market don't want to challenge you or make you think- with any of your entertainment - they want you to accept, be coddled and buy buy buy.

 

Sometimes we still get something thats enjoyable like The Avengers or Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes, most of the time we get Michael Bay, McG and Battleship.

 

I don;t like it, but I'd say if you're going down this particular rabbit hole of critical thinking, you may want to work out who the real villain of the piece is.

post #98 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaquio View Post

 

Absolutely NONE of these things (trolling and drama) were intended in a SINGLE word of my posts. I've severe issues with my own overall generation and age bracket that causes me to largely despise them and view them as backwards-looking, regressive, hypocritical shitheads of the highest magnitude, so those things I may vent about: but they'e as you said to "no one in particular". Nobody here on this particular forum is getting singled out. Hell, a giant percentage of people on this forum if anything are the direct ANTITHESIS of the kinds of people my bile is directed at, which is why I frequent this place AT ALL to begin with. Most of my venom and malice has been brought about from people I've have to deal with in real life as well as the internet over a period of several years now. I'm not out to "troll" ANYONE on this forum. And the DEAD LAST thing I want to do is incite the slightest whit of drama. If I EVER do ANY of those things even accidentally, I'll happily ban myself and save Nick or whomever the trouble.

 

About the main problem here is that I have viewpoints and opinions regarding general things about the superhero and childhood nostalgia-dominated popculture of the present that clash against the mass euphoric nerdgasm that was brought about by the Avengers. My biggest crime here I think is shitty timing to bring any of this crap up. My second biggest is perhaps not wording my thoughts as well as I could have (in spite of my best efforts: there's that unavoidable "me being an idiot" elephant in the room once again).

 

You need to not worry about other people so much dude. You'll live longer.

 

Let things piss you off sure, but if you end up twisted with personal hatred for large groups of people you've never met, you may be projecting other issues.

 

Not trying to be a prick, you seem like a smart, self-aware, if overly dramatic, hyperbolic guy.

 

So was I. Letting that shit go was one of the best journeys I took myself on.

post #99 of 196
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Honestly Gabe correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like your deeper issue is with the march of free market corporatised capitalism and its influence on modern culture causing the devaluation of anything that doesn't have a dollar sign attached to it or generate a profit for shareholders.

 

All art is falling by the wayside in the face of this spiritual and emotional devaluation of modern western culture, modern Hollywood film-making being a pretty decent micrcosm of the problem.

 

But your beef seems to really be with the devaluation of meaning in the modern world and the corporatocracies pushing of empty materialism and consumerism as acceptable replacements for these.

 

The high priests of The Almighty Free Market don't want to challenge you or make you think- with any of your entertainment - they want you to accept, be coddled and buy buy buy.

Perhaps. But maybe I'm dealing with a small sample size as far as anecdotal discussion with people I know and the feelings and sentiments I see expressed on these boards.

The "Tomatometer" has become an acceptable way to gauge refined opinions about a film. Posts about art films don't even see responses from people curious about said films, but there's one hundred posts a day in the box office thread discussing whether a Ridley Scott sci-fi blockbuster will make a little bit of money or a whole lot of money.

 

I dunno. I see about 150 movies a year but I just haven't been anywhere where people are discussing challenging or unusual movies lately. Maybe I need to get out more.

post #100 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

Perhaps. But maybe I'm dealing with a small sample size as far as anecdotal discussion with people I know and the feelings and sentiments I see expressed on these boards.

The "Tomatometer" has become an acceptable way to gauge refined opinions about a film. Posts about art films don't even see responses from people curious about said films, but there's one hundred posts a day in the box office thread discussing whether a Ridley Scott sci-fi blockbuster will make a little bit of money or a whole lot of money.

 

I dunno. I see about 150 movies a year but I just haven't been anywhere where people are discussing challenging or unusual movies lately. Maybe I need to get out more.

 

Shrugs

 

This is an age old argument around here. Some people love film and call themselves geeks or cinephiles - most geeks tho have simply a more specific variation on the masses tastes - in that, they simply like the films they like.

 

 

...and dude, yes, you need to get out more.

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