Obama Declares Support for Gay Marriage - Page 3

Seriously if you want to beat Romney stop with the stupid shit. High School? In school everyone is a dick to someone else. School is one vicious representation of a food chain. C'mon go after the guy. Showing he was an idiot when he was a teen makes him seem more human not less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 


It's easier for me to understand Romney's point because I used to be a real dick in my youth pulling pranks and making fun of others to the point they cried. But I grew out of that through those high school years and started to become more thoughtful of others. I remember during my junior year I apologized to someone I used to bully and we became good friends after we put it all behind. Of course it wasn't a marriage that changed me, honestly I'm sure what did. Since I can't pinpoint it, I'll just settle with "watching Captain Picard's moral speeches on afternoon TV changed me". And I still changed a lot after high school too. Ever since I realized I wanted to get into teaching and helping young people find their place in the world, I had a new found respect for educators. Getting into education was the last thing my 14 year old self would have ever considered as a possible career.

props to you....!!

A bit of exposure to Roddenberry's vision of the future growing up can go along way ;)

Seriously, The optimism expressed in the original ST (and even more so in ST:TNG) was a big factor in my youth.

"Wow, look at the future of Earth...everyone pretty much gets along...that's cool..."

But, for everyone like yourself who became more empathetic to others, there's another mirror version out there (probably with a goatee) who never experienced a degree of self-reflection. Their asshole-ness became more subtle.

Look at Romney's job choice, he became a partner in a business where disassembling and firing people is part of the job.

This plus the Seamus incident just screams 'inconsiderate asshole'.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdBighead 

Seriously if you want to beat Romney stop with the stupid shit. High School? In school everyone is a dick to someone else. School is one vicious representation of a food chain. C'mon go after the guy. Showing he was an idiot when he was a teen makes him seem more human not less.

speak for yourself...the majority of the people I knew in HS didn't act like dicks.

as far as Romney goes, I don't know if it's possible to make him appear to be more human...anyone run a Voight-Kampff test on him?

Pandering?  Maybe.  Political move?  Probably.

Cool as fuck thing for a powerful public figure to do for an oft-maligned demographic of tax-paying law-abiding American citizens?  Shit yeah.

Also, to anyone going on about "well, he just lost the black/church vote", I submit to you this: Obama might've just gained the disenfranchised vote.  The lazy, whiny "fuck it they're all the same anyway" annoyingly-cynical voter block.  This is the kind of thing that lights fires under people and puts their asses in booths on election day.

Obama's going for turnout right now, because a high voter turnout hands Obama the reelection on a silver platter.

The fact is that the voting populace is generally very "What have you done for me lately?". While it appears that Obama has been waffling on this & many other Progressive issues over his first term, I wouldn't be surprised if he's simply kept this & other such public endorsements in his pocket to help fire up the base come election season. I bet we're gonna see similar Progressive affirmations over the next few months.

http://gma.yahoo.com/president-obama-cites-winds-change-same-sex-marriage-223754072.html

Yes, this is a welcome step, but Obama has hardly been the "fierce advocate" and his "evolution" seems to be more political calculation than organic.  As Ed Brayton notes:

Ultimately, despite not falling over myself to thank a man whose presidency I have been very lukewarm on, I'm still glad.  Do I wish that Obama would have made as strong a declaration years ago?  Of course, but very few presidents in this day and age make decisions purely out of principle, so the next best thing is this so-called "evolution".

This thread has proven to me beyond a doubt why progressive Democrats aren't winning elections by landslides.

The book of American history is opening a new chapter right in front of us, and all we want to do is access the footnotes and the caveats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

 

http://gma.yahoo.com/president-obama-cites-winds-change-same-sex-marriage-223754072.html

 

Yes, this is a welcome step, but Obama has hardly been the "fierce advocate" and his "evolution" seems to be more political calculation than organic.  As Ed Brayton notes:

I don't understand what liberals expect the man to do.  It's been pretty obvious since forever where the guy stood on gay marriage.  Unfortunately you don't win elections on principle, or at least purely on principle.  There was a comment under The New Republic's editorial today that sums up my feelings on the whole "evolving view" nonesense:

"Which is a more powerful cultural moment, 'Failed presidential candidate Barack Obama declares support for gay marriage' or 'President Barack Obama declares support for gay marriage'? Sometimes our animus against inconsistency or evasiveness in politicians blinds us to the big picture."

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuddL 

"Which is a more powerful cultural moment, 'Failed presidential candidate Barack Obama declares support for gay marriage' or 'President Barack Obama declares support for gay marriage'? Sometimes our animus against inconsistency or evasiveness in politicians blinds us to the big picture."

I agree we should focus on the positive, but if you're saying that he was just biding his time to make a more powerful cultural statement 3 years into his Presidency, I gotta wonder what you're smoking.

Most liberals who have been disappointed with Obama's presidency (not just on the social issues), at least from where I've been reading, are generally happy that he declared his support, but they have rightly expressed come cynicism too.  I don't think it's wrong to say, This is a historical moment, but what does it mean?  Obama's clarifying statement about his pastor friends makes it pretty clear to me that this was pure calculation (Biden testing the waters, confining the statement to an interview, etc), which is why I'm very interested to see how it factors into the campaign and a prospective second term.  I think it's healthy to discuss what these pretty words are going to translate into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Most liberals who have been disappointed with Obama's presidency (not just on the social issues), at least from where I've been reading, are generally happy that he declared his support, but they have rightly expressed come cynicism too.  I don't think it's wrong to say, This is a historical moment, but what does it mean?  Obama's clarifying statement about his pastor friends makes it pretty clear to me that this was pure calculation (Biden testing the waters, confining the statement to an interview, etc), which is why I'm very interested to see how it factors into the campaign and a prospective second term.  I think it's healthy to discuss what these pretty words are going to translate into.

I would say with regards to the Dems, it's not so much 'cynicism' as a degree of skeptical pragmatism...which IMO, is a good thing in order to have a healthy democratic republic.

I'm truly happy and support Obama's announcement but we must acknowledge that this is just a first step (and it IS a hell of a step)

That being said, I am not about to surrender my rationality and blindly go along with anything the Obama admin. proposes without first stepping back and analyzing it.

If I wanted to truly be a blind follower, I'd join the GOP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

 I think it's healthy to discuss what these pretty words are going to translate into.

And the fact that we can only think of these as "pretty words" sums up my ire at progressive thought.

CHRIST. We're already hitting the "blind follower" tag?

I give up. Enjoy Romney.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

 

 

I agree we should focus on the positive, but if you're saying that he was just biding his time to make a more powerful cultural statement 3 years into his Presidency, I gotta wonder what you're smoking.

I don't think he was biding ("biden"?) his time, and I don't necessarily think he wanted the issue to ever be front and center.  Even now.  I think he got backed into a corner.  And maybe that's what I'm getting at.  Sometimes politicians have to be evasive about what they really believe, or they don't get elected.  Barack Obama quite possibly doesn't become President if he backed gay marriage 3 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer 

CHRIST. We're already hitting the "blind follower" tag?

 

I give up. Enjoy Romney.

now who's being a negative Nancy...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer 

 

And the fact that we can only think of these as "pretty words" sums up my ire at progressive thought.

They are pretty words to me, Jacob, so we're going to have to continue disagreeing with their importance.  Welcome words, no doubt, but not the historic moment that some people apparently want it to be.  If my more cynical progressive thoughts mean that I'm not falling over myself to naively produce the most shallow interpretation of what Obama said (including why he said it and what it will mean in the future), then I'll proudly be the subject of your misplaced ire.

People are still happy about what Obama said, including most progressives, but let's not make our happiness stop us from analyzing what's behind the words.  That's what the GOP's fringe base is for.

I'm not advocating blind support of Obama or his efforts, or his remarks. I'm merely stating that we're watching history being made, and we ought to be glad we're on the right fucking side of it. I just want to let Santa live for 24 hours before we choke the reindeer.

These are some of the most important pretty words a president has said to me. And I'm really not an uncritical Obama supporter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

These are some of the most important pretty words a president has said to me. And I'm really not an uncritical Obama supporter.

These words are nice, but they're nothing compared to the time Jimmy Carter told me my hair was like strands of moonlight.

Sorry to break it to you, bud, but that was the Billy Beer talkin'.

He told me I was his one true peanut.  I have been living a lie!

Sorry to derail with my inanity, btw.

HAR! Human rights is jes' hilarious!

Sorry, I'm in a sour mood this afternoon. Community is still hours away. Nurse, where's my bourbon?

EDIT: Bailey's apology makes me even more of a dick. JUSTICE!

Tackling somebody and cutting their hair is what LEOs and courts generally call "assault".  I was on the giving and receiving end of a lot of bullying as a teen, but this shit is way over the top. The same Mitt Romney who pulled this move is the same Mitt Romney who's pretending it didn't happen.  I can sure as shit tell you about every physical altercation I've ever been in, in great detail, going back to fifth grade.  Anyone who can't do that is either:

A)  A blackout-drunk

B)  Affiliated with a criminal gang on some level

C) Some sort of Vin Diesel adrenaline junkie who wears No-Fear hoodies, drives an Impala, and does amateur street luge.

D) A fucking liar running for president.

This week begins Obama's slow, silent dismantling of Mitt Romney.  In four months, when Mitt Romney has the same snowball-in-hell chance of winning that Bob Dole or John Kerry had, you can remember back to that week after "The Avengers" came out when Romney's campaign went to shit.

Privileged Mitt Romney assaulting someone in prep school for their hair is not something I'd use against him all these years later (even though ganging up on someone and violating their body when they're on their own is up there with pretty fucking terrible bullying), but the timing is pretty amusing.  At least Mitt Romney miraculously remembered and managed to apologize, finally undoing all of the mental trauma that this incident probably inflicted on his now deceased victim.

Hey, at least he's graduated from his cruder school days and now flip-flops when it comes to physical action.  Still, I feel sorry that the kid didn't have modern Mitt Romney back then to be against making judgment calls on people who are different before he was for it.

http://omg.yahoo.com/news/bristol-palin-slams-obamas-support-gay-marriage-200000678.html

Okay, I might have been a little too strong in trying to burst the bubble here (even though I tried to clarify that I'm still pretty happy, just unconvinced about what's next), so as an apology can we all at least have a good laugh over everyone's favorite mother chiming in?  

Bristol Palin thinks that it's wrong for children to have influence over their parents, because we all know change is possible without generational views evolving and the newer generations never have any influence over that process.  Apparently, gay marriage will also have some profound effect over the "entire nation".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer 

This thread has proven to me beyond a doubt why progressive Democrats aren't winning elections by landslides.

 

The book of American history is opening a new chapter right in front of us, and all we want to do is access the footnotes and the caveats.

Fuck yes. The Left across the western world need to get their fucking balls back.

Who gives a shit if this was politically motivated?  The man is running for office.  EVERYTHING HE DOES IS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

Now not only Obama has to do the right thing, but the right thing for the right reasons?  Jesus fucking Christ.  Give me a break. 

Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America, not a deacon leading Sunday School.  Being the Chief Executive Officer of a democratic republic which happens to be the world's lone superpower (in some decline, but still undoubtedly on top) requires being cunning, calculating, and pragmatic.  This isn't some TV show.

This is why the Left is enraging to me sometimes.  Socialists can never come to power because they're too busy infighting to determine who's the most ideologically pure and holding meetings to plan for meetings.

BREAKING! Politician motivated by politics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook 

Who gives a shit if this was politically motivated?  The man is running for office.  EVERYTHING HE DOES IS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

 

Now not only Obama has to do the right thing, but the right thing for the right reasons?  Jesus fucking Christ.  Give me a break. 

 

Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America, not a deacon leading Sunday School.  Being the Chief Executive Officer of a democratic republic which happens to be the world's lone superpower (in some decline, but still undoubtedly on top) requires being cunning, calculating, and pragmatic.  This isn't some TV show.

 

This is why the Left is enraging to me sometimes.  Socialists can never come to power because they're too busy infighting to determine who's the most ideologically pure and holding meetings to plan for meetings.

All I'm saying is that a calculated statement, probably motivated more by a desire to set a tone for the upcoming election (one that Romney can't survive in) which in the same interview was moderated with "state rights" and "Well, not everyone who doesn't like the idea of gay marriage is a bigot, you know", is not exactly the momentous occurrence that the more pro-Obama people seem to think it is.   Obama's words were more or less about how he has "evolved" back into his earlier position from over ten years ago, and are probably not going to amount to much in the long run.  Yes, let's be happy that a president made an explicity "I'm okay with the gay marriage thing" statement, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that Obama and the Democrats are going to grow some spine out of this and actually be the advocates that they claimed to be.

Sorry, I'll remove my pants now and join the circlejerk.  Anyone who wants to maturely and intelligently discuss what this actually means can continue talking in the kiddie pen the Democrats have provided.  God, so many people have already fallen over themselves to congratulate the guy, it's not like a few skeptics are bound to change the celebratory tone. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

http://omg.yahoo.com/news/bristol-palin-slams-obamas-support-gay-marriage-200000678.html

Marriage advice.  From Bristol.

Goddamn, the cognitive dissonance is mindblowing.

I really don't think you understand how important this is for somebody like me.

And I'm not somebody who's attached to Obama's nipple here, but this is a big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

 

All I'm saying is that a calculated statement, probably motivated more by a desire to set a tone for the upcoming election (one that Romney can't survive in) which in the same interview was moderated with "state rights" and "Well, not everyone who doesn't like the idea of gay marriage is a bigot, you know", is not exactly the momentous occurrence that the more pro-Obama people seem to think it is.   Obama's words were more or less about how he has "evolved" back into his earlier position from over ten years ago, and are probably not going to amount to much in the long run.  Yes, let's be happy that a president made an explicity "I'm okay with the gay marriage thing" statement, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that Obama and the Democrats are going to grow some spine out of this and actually be the advocates that they claimed to be.

 

Sorry, I'll remove my pants now and join the circlejerk.  Anyone who wants to maturely and intelligently discuss what this actually means can continue talking in the kiddie pen the Democrats have provided.  God, so many people have already fallen over themselves to congratulate the guy, it's not like a few skeptics are bound to change the celebratory tone. 

Yeah but it just feels so good to feel above the crowd tho doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

I really don't think you understand how important this is for somebody like me.

 

And I'm not somebody who's attached to Obama's nipple here, but this is a big deal.

I'm bisexual and have spent most of my life immersed in the LGBT community, so I'm happy that a president made an explicit statement, no doubt.  I'm also a realist who knows all too well how communities are appealed to and then dropped, or just given very mild, inoffensive support that leaves us at the mercy of the state.  I've just had enough experience with Obama's playbook here to not be so overjoyed that he's an advocate until actual change materializes in a hypothetical second term.  Again, I realize that there are only so many ways to play the game, but I recognized enough of Obama's troubling tendencies in that interview, not just the excerpted portions.

Everyone who's not anti-gay has elevated this beyond what it means and probably deserves, so one skeptic isn't going to change that tone.  God, I'm not even a skeptic so much as I am a "I'm not optimistic about where it's going from here after the hype dies down" guy.  I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm not going to dance and sing around like there's suddenly been a giant leap forth - not until this first step is shown to be one of many more, and not just the only of its kind.

I'm a realist too. I also know that coming out in support behind us isn't exactly something you want to fucking screw up down the road.

We've got a standing president standing in support of one of our biggest issues, let's try to have some basic confidence instead of the typical pussfooting any progressive is prone to doing.

On the positive side, perhaps this will lower if not completely eliminate any instances of a right-wing moron saying "PRESIDENT OBAMA DOESN'T SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE EITHER!" when trying to make their position sound reasonable or mainstream.

When you dig deeper into the language, past the dishonest "evolution" talk that makes us sound like the "Joes and Janes" in a light campaign speech, one could argue that a lot of Obama's clarifications in that interview amount to pussyfooting (or political savvy, if you believe Obama has more spine).  Progressives are naturally going to be wary because the guy is not much of a progressive himself, and has disappointed on several fronts.  An awareness of not wanting to be pandered to or mildly supported is a good sense to have, and that's ultimately all we're expressing:  a sense that this might not lead into any more than a few calculated, inoffensive commitments and bones thrown.  None of us want to think that someone is on our side and take anything for granted, especially in just assuming that it will lead into action.

That's ultimately why I'm going to be the "Good for him, but we'll see where this goes" person.  It's nice to be acknowledged, but it's even worse to be acknowledged and then kind of ignored.

I think coming out in support of gay marriage and then psyching us out would be a super-bad-stupid move on his part.

Obama unequivocally supported gay rights in the 90s. His hesitation & "evolution" is just language he's used to navigate the minefield of a crazy political reality. To look at this announcement with a cocked eye is just silly.

My libertarian roommate is talking about how the government totally forced a church to hire a gay youth pastor back in Ohio. Why did nitpick this announcement, again?

now that Obama's more or less on board with marriage equality...

It is painfully obvious that leaving it up to the States to make the decisions regarding something as important as an individuals' rights in this country is not going to work.

It took a SCOTUS decision in 1967 until the red colored states in the map below had their Anti-miscegenenation laws overturned. These states ultimately had to be FORCED to change their laws regarding marriage....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States

The map below has a breakdown of marriage equality laws state by state....the solid red states have State Constitiution bans on same-sex marriage...

notice anything similar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States

I have no doubt that the legality of 'Marriage equality' will end up before the SCOTUS at some point....I just hope it isn't the one with the current justices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

I have no doubt that the legality of 'Marriage equality' will end up before the SCOTUS at some point....I just hope it isn't the one with the current justices.

This is exactly why we need to bide our time and why Obama's cautious approach is the correct one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Privileged Mitt Romney assaulting someone in prep school for their hair is not something I'd use against him all these years later (even though ganging up on someone and violating their body when they're on their own is up there with pretty fucking terrible bullying), but the timing is pretty amusing.  At least Mitt Romney miraculously remembered and managed to apologize, finally undoing all of the mental trauma that this incident probably inflicted on his now deceased victim.

 

Hey, at least he's graduated from his cruder school days and now flip-flops when it comes to physical action.  Still, I feel sorry that the kid didn't have modern Mitt Romney back then to be against making judgment calls on people who are different before he was for it.

This is how the Obama campaign, official and unofficial, is taking Romney apart (and how they've been doing it for months IMO): make the man out to be a petty, out of touch, mean spirited, man, who is fundamentally a fool. Of course Romney himself is doing an amazing job of helping them out practically every time he opens his mouth.

There is an old trope about Americans preferring to vote for the candidate who is aspirational, and/or the guy you can "have a beer with". I think there are two other traits we look for: Americans want to vote for a candidate who is fundamentally serious and fair. Romney fails on all levels.

As for Obama's comments on Gay Marriage, this IS a risky move, but at the same time, it will draw out the essential mean spiritness of the Right and the Romney campaign. If it becomes a major issue in the Fall the invective will make opponents of Gay marriage too ashamed to be open about it. (I"m referring to the sane people).

Last night my Facebook news feed was nothing but positive feedback for Obama. As goes Facebook, so goes the country.

If anyone has to deal with any douchebags who purport that marriage has "always been one man/one woman", make them watch this video of Lawrence O'Donnell giving a (very) brief rundown on the history of marriage.

video at link

I'm sure there are some more extensive vids out there, but this vid might be a good starting point....?

Yeah but since when have things like facts and logic swayed the poo flinging monkeys?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

Yeah but since when have things like facts and logic swayed the poo flinging monkeys?

point taken....but the thought of the country being run by 'poo flinging monkeys' is too horrible to contemplate. (Bush's schtick got real old, real quick)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

point taken....but the thought of the country being run by 'poo flinging monkeys' is too horrible to contemplate. (Bush's schtick got real old, real quick)

The corporations, the media and the politicians all pitch their retoric and decision making directly at these human lizard brains, hate to tell ya mate but the monkeys are already running your US zoo as much as they're running my aussie one.