PROMETHEUS post-release discussion - Page 14

Avatar's storyline is similar to Dances with Wolves'?  Holy hell, I hadn't heard that one before.

Oh, give me a break. Prometheus is twice the movie Avatar is. The only "interesting" thing going on in that movie is its wince-worthy iteration of an outdated noble savage colonialist fantasy, muddied up with recycled sci-fi tropes -- and it's interesting in the completely wrong way. Say what you will about the Prometheus script, but at least it generally tries to be original and, when it does stoop to derivation, has the sense to crib from worthwhile sources like Von Daniken or Arthur C. Clarke and not fuckin' Pocahontas.

No.  I'm not going to let Prometheus be called a better movie than Avatar.  I don't care if you hate Avatar for being familiar, it's functional.  Prometheus isn't functional.

I really want to compare Alien and Prometheus to another franchise The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded.

Both Alien and The Matrix both are great films that have deep symbolic points to their story, but it still has a story one can watch and enjoy.

Prometheus and The Matrix Reloaded are films that are both overwhelmed by their symbolism, that hurts their storylines. Both needed another script revision and sharper focusing.

This is where James Cameron does shine, in the fact he does deliver a coherent (although almost insultingly basic) storyline.

Von Daniken is a worthwhile source?

 

And Prometheus isn't original at all. It's a complete rehash of ALIEN with monsters that make no sense, and a bunch of ancient astronaut bullshit larded onto it.
 

I was going to say, Prometheus borrows HEAVILY from Aliens imagery.  To the point that the theme of Prometheus is too hopeful and in awe and vibrant for the gothic look of the film.  It doesn't even fit.

 

Prometheus would have been twice the movie Avatar was had it delivered on anything it promised. But not only did it not deliver, it failed on a level Avatar did not - it was not entertaining. 

 

 

Agreed. Cameron knows how to tell a story, even if that story is bland blah. On this project, the director nor the writers nor the cast had their arms around it. Avatar told us a story that we've seen a million times. Prometheus was gibberish.  

 

Yeah, speaking as someone who really didn't care for AVATAR in the slightest, as much as I hate to say this, it was much better than this. 

Perhaps a good comparison but I like Reloaded while Prometheus made me angry. Reloaded, while flawed, felt impassioned while Prometheus felt so damned pretentious and lazy. Lindelof acts and writes like he is much better than he is.

Saw the movie today. Like most people here I kept trying to tell myself the movie was ok until about halfway through. I mean I like Tron legacy for crying out loud, but as this continued I went from cautious to pissed. And to top it off I started to get nitpicky about things that weren't particularly offensive. So, yes it was pretty and it had good moments that I almost want to visit, but fuck it. I guess Kingdom of Heaven may go down as the last good Ridley Scott movie for me.

Interestingly, considering how much they denied its direct connection to Alien it kind of answered more "questions" for that than itself. My standards are lower than some people here but sonofabitch. This would so sound and look so good in my home setup though....

So we're doing the noble failure versus successful mediocrity debate? I'll go watch the Hulk movies.

Of course, I don't think Avatar is particularly mediocre.  It achieves just about everything it sets to do, and it's hardly unambitious.

A TIME Magazine look at Prequels.

http://entertainment.time.com/2012/06/07/get-back-prometheus-before-watchmen-and-the-complicated-art-of-the-prequel/

Nononononononono... Avatar was not functional!!! Noooooooo!

 

Exactly.

 

Having slept on it I feel like my initial feelings about this are true. I'm done giving a shit about what Scott does. He can't hack it any more.

I found PROMETHEUS vastly more entertaining than AVATAR. It is flawed, but I felt it to be more engaging. I'm not understanding the animosity, it ain't great but it's no PHANTOM MENACE like someone brought up earlier. Come on.

The Matrix sequels, whatever you think about them in terms of their dramatic value, are extremely well-thought out thematically. The Wachowskis had something they wanted to say and points to make, which I think they made well. It all adds up to a coherent set of arguments about the value of freedom and the costs of spiritual liberation. They lean perhaps too heavily on monologues, but the ideas are dramatized as well.

 

Prometheus, as has already been mentioned at length, just raises a punch of halfassed spiritual and philosophical questions and fails to do anything with them. The idea of meeting your maker and finding him hostile is a very interesting one, but you have to give the reason for WHY they're hostile. In Prometheus the answer is "because movie". The squirmy horror stuff doesn't mesh with the Big Questions they're trying to tackle, and the ideas are seriously undermined by the needs of the plot.

 "worthwhile sources like Von Daniken"

 

LOL.

 

Von Daniken is pretty much exactly Poccahontas/Whitey-Helps-the-Natives. Except the Aliens are Whitey.

Holy crap, the negativity here is outstanding...and justified, i suppose, but I'm seeing "Transformers franchise" levels of hatred and disgust here.

Me, I'll remain in defense of the film as a solid yet not groundbreaking movie until a Director's Cut appear; the last time Ridley Scott followed up one of his hits with a similar picture was when Gladiator was followed by Kingdom of Heaven, and if i recall right, the reactions were very similar to the ones here...and we all know how the Director's Cut fixed that.

Yes, Scott has said there's no Director's Cut, but I call bullshit on that; it was the same with Kingdom of Heaven; Scott is a professional, so he's not going to talk about a better version of the film while its just released; the guy knows how to work the studio system, and how to play the game, and that means compromising and keeping a straight face for a time.

I might be a Scott apologist (and a Lindelof hater), but seriously...there are FAR MORE films out there that deserve this level of hatred; besides, mediocre or flawed Scott is better than most of the dreck out there.

To me, the movies only real flaw is sadly its bigger one: The Script, which stinks up the whole movie; in classic Lindelof fashion, it prefers to play it fast and safe, and never truly dares explore or extend the core themes of the film, in order to avoid...gasp!...alienating its audience; so, if there's any blame on Scott's part, is for going forth which such a weak script.

That said, I cant say I even care about a Blade Runner sequel; Id rather prefer seeing Scott tackle The Forever War instead.

 

PS: This post has been heavily influenced by me just finishing "The greatest movies never made", and realizing just how much trouble Scott has run over during his career...among other fine directors.

 

The problem is that it jerks one out of one's suspension of disbelief. I believe this has become more jarring as the special effects surrounding "old-man makeup"   have become more convincing. Regardless, I avoided all knowledge about this film before I went in. I didn't know Guy Pearce was in the movie. But as soon as Weyland appeared, I was immediately thinking, What's wrong with that guy, and, That's obviously a make-up job, I wonder who's underneath, and so on. Overall, I loved this movie, but that was my one complaint. Weyland was never shown as a young man, so so what was the fucking point of having Guy Pearce play an old man? Why not just hire an old man?

 

The general reaction to this movie on the movie-geek sites has been eye-opening to me. For the first time in 20+ years, I'm beginning to wonder why I even read this shit online. Here is a brilliant movie, delivered by one of the masters of the form, shot magnificently, full of terrific performances, supplemented with stunning special effects -- yet the vast majority of reviews on these (and other) boards are negative. Meanwhile, reviews from both critics and "civilians" are decidedly positive. Something tells me that the "film geek" community, of which I have long been a member, is not only eating itself, but is now actively contributing to the demise of the thing they profess to love. It makes me sad.

 

I'm telling everyone I know to see this movie. Because it's well-made, which is a rare thing today. Because it represents a studio taking a chance on "strange" film by modern standards. Because it doesn't insult it's audience. Because it's filled with strong performances by accomplished actors. Because I love movies, and it's the right thing to do.

 

Oh, and because, despite the fact that it's not perfect, I enjoyed the hell out of it. 

Just saw this again, this time in 3D cause why not.  The 3D was occasionally beautiful and not intrusive, so that's good.

 

The score still doesn't work with the images, except for the map room scene.  The characters are inconsistent.  Guy Pearce is weird.  Fassbender thinks he's in a much better movie, his effort is wasted on this script.  I mean, threat displays like a cobra rearing it's hood are fucking instinct.  How do you ignore instinct?!

 

This is a deeply, deeply flawed movie with waaaaaaay more frustrations than positives.  I would take Avatar any day.

 

This.  They could have done something really special with the hopeful character of Shaw entering this dark, bio-mechanical dungeon and finding nothing but hopelessness, but I never got the feeling she was particularly upset to find that her creators were all dead.  Hell, she couldn't wait to shove an electrical probe in one's decapitated head, just for funsies.

 

But yeah, while the script has a lot of problems, I think the biggest problem is the inconsistent tone.  

Edited by Dross - 6/10/12 at 2:24am

Scott badly wanted to make 2001 awe, and he wanted to use his Alien "look" to do it.  The problem is they just don't match up very well.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzI3AdpA9e4

 

This music would work well as Shaws theme.  She's all awe and hope and faith, right?  Think of Brody's fun little jingle theme in the Jaws soundtrack.  Something hopeful and optimistic and bright to represent our hero venturing into the horrors of a pretty scary story.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAsbnSYqZac

Thanks for linking that track from Prometheus.  I love that piece.  It added a lot to the experience of seeing the movie.

It just sounds like Star Trek to me.  Which didn't fit the tone at all.

For me it really kinda set the tone.  For the first half, at least.  Before it became monster mash.

Well I guess no music could have fit the tone to me, since every scene has a different tone.

 

I agree about the numbers. Even putting to one side what evolutionary biologists have to say about their current best theories about where we came from in real life, I really don't think when they identify a species and match two samples from the same species that numbers come into it in any meaningful sense (for example , a lot of species on Earth are in the high nineties in relation to each other, ourselves included and yet look nothing alike externally and have a lot of differences internally). 

 

Furthermore, since the engineers actually seem to be physically quite different in a lot of ways (visibly in height for starters and physiology seems quite likely), it would actually make a lot more sense if they weren't a complete match to be consistent with the radical physical differences. The 99.8% mcnooj suggested actually would be a much better choice. I also suspect a 100% match under the circumstances would actually be impossible. As it is, I'm sure that given the variation in the human race means you wouldn't get a 100% match between samples from two different humans.

The theme has this hopeful tone of discovery about it, yet there isn't a single moment in the film that I'd actually call hopeful.

Wait, so when does the Space Jockey begin the process of evolution on earth?  With a single cell?  They're responsible for birds and trees and spiders and bees and bears too then?  Right?  Why are we the only species to evolve into engineer looking beasts if they're responsible for all life?

 

A lot of the movie's defenders are saying that the plot holes and loose ends give you something to think about, when really, the last thing Prometheus needs is for the audience to go home and start thinking too hard.

 

The film is like a giant game of KerPlunk - once you start pulling at the straws, the whole fucking thing comes crashing down.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

 

That actually does match a lot of the theories about how life started on Earth. The earliest fossils are around 1 billion years old and are singled celled organisms. Some science fiction does have it that the earliest cells on Earth were introduced by aliens either intentionally or by accident a billion or more years ago.

 

So you could explain it in that the opening scene was the introduction of the first cells onto Earth which ultimately led to more complex life and then us. Well, just as long as you overlook things like somehow those single cells ultimately re-evolved into a species that completely matched its source organism from billions of years ago (I guess we could always say that there's a 'programme' in there somewhere we haven't found that ultimately led to recreating its source organism - and well, why not even an unconscious drive to rediscover our creators all through history by ultimately inventing all the science that led us back out to space).

 

The time frame could be explained in that the engineer species is billions of years old from its origin (after all the universe is about 13 or so billion years old, they could have originally come into existence long before us) but due to all the space travel, time dilation, hibernation and who knows what else, there's groups of them scattered all over the universe at wide temporal intervals. The original engineers that created life on Earth could have evolved into something radically different from anything understandable, or more likely long be extinct but this particular group is only marginally more advanced for any number of reasons (cells or spores reactivated relatively recently to recreate the engineer race in this part of the galaxy) and they're the ones who visited Earth over the last few thousand to tens of thousands of years.

 

Yes, it's a stretch (and a huge one) but with enough contortion (lots), it could be made to fit what science can theorise about how we got here in real life.

I think a lot of people are overlooking what an incredible piece of technology David was.  Not only is he an incredibly lifelike human recreation who seems to be on the verge of developing a personality, he's also programmed to do whatever is necessary to move the plot forward at any given moment, regardless of his previous behavior and motivations.  Astounding!

Also, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but I thought the movie ended with the beginning of a much more interesting movie than the one we just saw.

I'm not sure.

 

I felt they painted themselves into a corner with that ending. It's a movie with just two human characters (well 1 human and 1 Android). Is the rest really going to be a planet full of these boring looking Engineers? Maybe my creativity is lacking, but a full movie in the Engineer's planet where they met the evil Engineers vs the renegade (we love humans) engineers sounds kind of boring.

 

I'm guessing the 3rd movie is a race back to earth to warn/prevent the eventual full scale invasion of the planet? Maybe that would be the movie I always expected to see, just a massive infestation of xenomorphs on earth?

This movie will never have a sequel.  Not one starring Shaw and David any way.

Some THE ART OF THE FILM pics.

http://prometheusfrance.forumdefans.com/t36-le-livre-officiel-informations-officielles

Is it wrong to vastly enjoy the Alien 3 Special Edition more than Prometheus?

This thread descended into a butthurt fanboy circlejerk pretty quickly. Has anyone unironically said "Ridley Scott Raped My Childhood" yet?

 

I just think the idea of going to confront them about why they decided to wipe us out then changed their minds has more to it than any of the questions raised in Prometheus.  In a way, it's the question Prometheus wanted to deal with until it disappeared up its own ass.

 

I'm not sure how much story there's left to tell between this and the beginning of the original Alien. The engineers are clearly nothing more than assholes who were overwhelmed by their own creation. I was so much fonder of the original synopsis I read that had someone on the crew of the Prometheus (Weyland or David I'm assuming) angering the Engineers, thereby prompting them to unleash the alien on us. Would've had a much more tangible and tragic sense of hubris than this hazy Jesus nonsense and clearer thematic ties to the Alien story - "The Company" is all about bucking the natural order, would've been quite clever if they were the inadvertent cause of all this in the first place.

Edited by Evi - 6/10/12 at 5:22am

 

Feel free to leave it if you feel it harms your superior intellectual maturity.

 

Otherwise, argue without name calling.

Shaw: "David?"

 

David:: "Yes, Dr Shaw?"

 

Shaw: "Do you know what TODAY is, David?"

 

David: "Let's see...it's been 12 years, 7 months, 18 days, 4 hours and 18 minutes since we left LV--223...in that time we've visited 43 planets that were shown to have had the Engineer signature...and in ALL cases, the planet was teaming with virilant life-forms; the Engineers dead..."

 

Shaw: "That's NOT what I MEANT, David...apart from us setting down on...what is it?...LV-426...this day should be very special to you..."

 

David: "Are you referring to my date of manufacture?"

 

Shaw: "We call it a BIRTHday, David....and look, I've gotten you a present..."

 

 

David: (mutters) "...better not be another fucking hat..."

Edited by Graham - 6/10/12 at 5:46am

This thread is going to turn ugly real fuckin quick, so I'm just gonna say I loved it a lot, the 2001 vs Lovecraft vibe they went for here is right up my alley, the loose plot threads irk, but never unravel the thing, I have no problem with the film being the opening salvo for a very large, heady, existentialist At the Mountains Of Madness, loved the shit out of the score for those same reasons, and oddly enough, the need to tie it back to Alien is what hurts it more than anything, And yet, the idea of Engineers creating us and xenomorphs, and yet, somehow, THEY'RE the perfect organism is fascinating as hell too.

 

Ridley's not done with us yet. Whatever questions I have about this story, I hope he gets the money and permission to answer.

 

You may now return to May 20th, 1999 All Over Again, currently in progress.

 

Well what else can you call some of this stuff? Look at that godawful pandering excuse for a 'review' they just posted on Slashfilm - only geek movies that people are overly invested in get this kind of venomous 'worst movie ever' treatment for the crime of not being what was wanted.

 

The nuts and bolts of the script can be very easily be picked apart, and people will inevitably do so until there is nothing left of it. Logic issues (which in this case tend to come more from of an absence of explanation than from being unambiguously illogical), dialogue and characterisations are obviously important considerations, and are always going to hold this one back from even approaching true greatness. But ultimately beneath everything else it's a pulpy b-movie about scientists exploring some exotic planet and getting their comeuppance in various grotty ways, and with that in mind I think it's hugely unfair to dismiss the exceptional level of craft that is on display for long stretches of this movie. Some have tried to cast all that to one side by saying 'it's pretty I guess' but that's bullshit. The original Alien is basically a 'haunted house in space' movie elevated by exceptional craft, and while this isn't nearly as good, in many respects the film making here is still miles beyond anything in the franchise has seen since the second movie.

I guess, but we're facing a sequel that's going to spend potentially a long time in the Engineers world, which have shown to be character designs that are not that interesting. I don't know, it kind of reminds me of Avatar but with only two human actors.

To add drama there'll have to be differnt engineer factions, etc etc. Just doesn't sound like a very fun movie, I'm also sure they'll have other life form experiments to fill in more of the monster nonsense.

But who knows, maybe they'll surprise us and the engineer plane has been overrun by xenomorphs. I'm just not sure how compelling a sequel will be.

 

Wikipedia has it as the 19th...

I forgot to add as an aside to my post  that I saw this movie with my sister and she thought Tom Hardy did a great job with his American accent;)

 

You're extrapolating a GREAT deal here...they could do a sequel to Promethes that doesn't even INVOLVE Shaw and David...they could ALSO do a PREQUEL to Prometheus set entirely in 'near-Earth orbit', or on one of the colonies...or...well the list is ENDLESS.

 

Never SECOND-GUESS the Money-Grubbing Bastards...erm, Artists that KNOW the correct way this franchise should head...

Someone already did that to Lindelof on twitter.  He responded with a sarcastic "Thanks?"

Well, I agree with pretty much all of the negative reactions here. It's a beautiful film it just isn't as smart as it wants to be and the script isn't as tight as it needs to be. The visuals and Fassbender are the movies high points. Very disappointed overall.

I wish the creatures had been developed more or at least more thought had been put into them. We needed some sort of actual communication from an Engineer to understand what there goal really was with Earth. Since the third act revolves so much around that. The secrets of the ooze needed to be somewhat explained with its ability to create zombies, space eels and ninja turtles. Really it just would have been nice if characters and scenes flowed together consistently.

The plot similarities to AVP are just disturbing and the ending has the same stench as Terminator Salvation.