MCP: YOU DON’T TRY TO RAISE MONEY FOR A FEMINIST GAMING DOCUMENTARY WITHOUT MAKING A FEW ENEMIES

It's quite astounding just how hostile gamers become when someone even brings up the topic of gender roles in video games.  Recently, one of the staff writers at giantbomb.com posted a trailer for that new Harley DLC for Batman: Arkham City, and made a small comment about the trailer's usage of the phrase, "Payback's a bitch."  

This erupted into an immense backlash with the user community condemning the writer for even bringing up the topic of sexism, as well as gamers justifying the term as being a proper name for "one who is acting like a bitch."

Granted, I don't want to make myself seem like a hypocrite; I've immensely enjoyed countless games that aren't exactly favorable towards women, and I've said some things in the past that I'm not proud of, but I also realize that gender roles--particularly those of women--is a topic that needs to be discussed.  If we can't talk about these things, how can we possibly claim that video games are art?

I'm curious as to the level of comments that had to be removed, considering the vitriol and bald misogyny that remained available to peruse.

I did appreciate that she was immediately judged on her looks by a large swath of the commenters.

They could apply this to comic books as well.  Or Michael Bay movies.  But I guess they need to save some material for the follow-ups.

Vitriol. I've never understood it.

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Originally Posted by MikeI 

Vitriol. I've never understood it.

I think alot of it comes from a knee-jerk reaction that gamers (morons) have against anyone that dares criticize the medium:

Do you dislike the direction the industry is going in?

Then you're a pretentious douche who has no idea what he's talking about.

Do you think the medium has a flawed perception of women in gaming?

You're either fat or a feminazi who has no idea what she's talking about

Of course, mysogyny, racism, and straight up stupidity are all present, but I think this is just plain 'old anti-intellectualism at work.  People don't like it when others with some perceived sense of intelligence criticize that thing they like, causing them to lash out--usually without even bothering to read the arguments being made.  Worse yet, if there's 10 or more people bitching on some forum, it's a lot easier to slide into mob mentality then to actually form a legitimate response.

Anita's previous videos were already great material.

BAM.  Supported!

Actually, the things they're funding are often available to the donors for a reduced price as one of the reward tiers. It's pretty sweet. Or at least until the Kickstarter you funded isn't able to deliver on their estimated timetable.
 

Male gamers can be giant cunts.

Now there is an uproar over Lara Croft being threatened with rape in the latest Tomb Raider: http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a387062/tomb-raider-rape-attempt-encourages-players-to-protect-lara-croft.html

My initial reaction was that this might be a positive direction for the series to take, making Lara a human and not a super woman, but quotes like this have me questioning the entire idea:

That seems incredibly paternalistic and out of touch. When I play a videogame character, I don't see myself as some sort of guardian angel keeping the onscreen character from harm. Since I'm controlling my avatar's actions at every level, I am roleplaying and very much projecting myself into the character as I play. I don't know if this was merely a tone deaf but earnest defense of the rape scenario, or if it's a signal the thinking behind sequence is unsavory.

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Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

The intent is sound, rape's just a really lazy shortcut for putting a woman in danger.

Normally I'd agree, but it seems like an up close and personal kind of danger Lara Croft has not had to face before, rather than lazy storytelling. The entire series has been about putting her in harms way through various exotic and unexpected scenarios from the get go, but this new threat seems to raise the stakes in a way we have not seen with this character, who is generally remembered for being one of the first strong female videogame protagonists (Samus doesn't exactly count in my book).

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Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

Which, again, is all well and good in theory. There's ways to do that without going to the rape well while still making her vulnerable.

 

See: Madison Paige's home invasion dream in Heavy Rain.

Ah well I've not played Heavy Rain, but I don't think the inclusion of such content in a game is necessarily a lazy narrative device, that's all I was saying. 

Rape's not only an exceedingly lazy way to show danger to a female character, it's oftentimes just a good decent bit of exploitation on top of it.

Heavy Rain and it's constant leering over Madison while seemingly placing her in sexually dangerous situations is almost a prime example of how troublesome this is in gaming.

I don't need a gritty re-imagining where we might just get to see Lara Croft sexually assaulted if we don't fight hard enough.

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Originally Posted by Dr Harford 


I guess I just take issue with the idea that it's automatically a lazy way to show danger if we're talking about videogames and not film. This is like the 100th Tomb Raider game, but the first one to feature rape. They spent a whole lot of time putting Lara Croft in peril before they came up with this scenario. It seems in this case that perhaps it's important to the story they're trying to tell.
I watched that Heavy Rain clip, and it certainly seemed a bit voyeuristic, perhaps exploitive. Is that automatically a bad thing, though? Sexual assault is something people fear. Shouldn't fiction be allowed to exploit that fear just like other anxieties are routinely played up to thrill an audience?

The problem with rape is that it's such a cliche for women in fiction, it's kind of easy to be extremely cynical whenever the subject comes up. 

Hey look here's a strong female character! I wonder how she got that way?

Rape.

It's cheap even when it gets resorted to in film.  

And then for this guy to sell it for a video game by wording it that way? 

How I long to be a fly on the wall at Square/Crystal Dynamics when that shit dropped.

"WUDDAAAFUUUUUUUUUUCCCKKKKK????"

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Originally Posted by Dr Harford 


 and that she won't in fact be raped at all if you do the quick time event correcty (or whatever it is they're talking about).

This comes across every shade of wrong.

Even if the actual game doesn't really end up going there (and with the online response this news got, is it possible for this aspect to be dropped?), it's already a strike against the culture that would try to push it the way this E3 rep for the studio did.

Without getting into the whole Tomb Raider thing, I watched a few of this lady's videos, and they make a bunch of good points, but they go overboard just a bit.  She kind of lost me when she said that men couldn't be inspired by women or that Mariah Carey is sexist for wanting to be with her significant other at Christmas.  I know this is really going to come off as "I'm not racist, but...", as I'd like to think I'm a pretty modern guy, but do we really need to have someone point out how Transformers 2 is sexist? 

That being said, yes, video game nerds can overreact when anyone criticizes the medium.  There's a reason the stereotype of gamers as smelly basement dwellers who have never seen a woman exists, and why "booth babes" are a thing, so I'd say this series tackling games is absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by wydren 

Without getting into the whole Tomb Raider thing, I watched a few of this lady's videos, and they make a bunch of good points, but they go overboard just a bit.  She kind of lost me when she said that men couldn't be inspired by women or that Mariah Carey is sexist for wanting to be with her significant other at Christmas.  I know this is really going to come off as "I'm not racist, but...", as I'd like to think I'm a pretty modern guy, but do we really need to have someone point out how Transformers 2 is sexist? 

 

That being said, yes, video game nerds can overreact when anyone criticizes the medium.  There's a reason the stereotype of gamers as smelly basement dwellers who have never seen a woman exists, and why "booth babes" are a thing, so I'd say this series tackling games is absolutely necessary.

Around the time Transformers 2 came out, I recall listening to some film reviewer (if you could call him that) respond to criticism that the film was sexist, specifically that only grade A models seemed to occupy Bay's film.  His response?  That of course there's going to be attractive people in the film because who wants to see a movie with uglies?

So to answer your question:  Yes, we do need someone to point out if a film is sexist.

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Originally Posted by Ska Oreo 
So to answer your question:  Yes, we do need someone to point out if a film is sexist.

I didn't ask if we need someone to point out that A film is sexist, I asked if we needed someone to point out if a Michael Bay film is sexist.  If you can't tell that, I'd say you should volunteer for the shunting.

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Originally Posted by wydren 

I didn't ask if we need someone to point out that A film is sexist, I asked if we needed someone to point out if a Michael Bay film is sexist.  If you can't tell that, I'd say you should volunteer for the shunting.

And I'll repeat my answer again:  Yes, we do.

People are really that stupid.

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Originally Posted by Dr Harford 

I'm not sure that it is a cliche in fiction so much as art imitates life, and a tragic, completely horrible number of women experience rape or sexual assault in their lifetime. Fiction should not be a sanitized version of reality. In fact, this is the only time I can ever remember this issue being dealt with in a videogame, so if anything this is long overdue.

Maybe we should play Lara doing her taxes and having a pap smear while we're at it? How about when we she needs a shit after one too many energy bars?

Tap X to use leaf as toilet paper

If we're going with unsanatized reality and all.

The whole reaction to the Tomb Raider thing is simply one more storm in a teacup. Once again Rock, Paper, Shotgun has the best piece on the matter of that demo. People are making the game out to be as if Lara was cavorting in the woods with her furry friends and suddenly rape happens and transforms her into Rambo. It's not. Having all sorts of awful shit happening to Lara has been a Tomb Raider staple since the first one. Having her drown, immolated, mauled by animals, thrown off cliffs. And all done for fun. So when someone actually wants to subvert that make the player NOT want to see these happening to her, no matter how mishandled you feel it is, we lose our shit instead of applauding it? All these apologetic "this is not my gaming!" I keep seeing are starting to piss me off. I'd rather have a thousand games going for interesting themes, missing and ending up sleazy than one more "the princess is in another castle." You know why? Because I'm not in the least apologetic about my gaming as a 38 year old man. And I don't give the slightest of fucks if what's in my games will make some bystander upset. I'll be over here playing The Binding Of Isaac and To The Moon and this and when they fail thinking "I hope they do it better the next time" instead of "I hope they didn't do this at all."

Gender roles and the ridiculously lopsided handling of them in gaming is indeed a huge and valid discussion. Conflating it with sensationalistic reactions justified by the thinnest of logical strands is not the way to go about it.

gamers are virgins and hate women. everybody knows that.

My post does not mean that I don't feel utter contempt for the pathetic troglodytes, who hidden behind their keyboards hyperventilate out of sheer joy at having "told that bitch."

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Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

 

This comes across every shade of wrong.

 

Sorry wasn't trying to be flip, just was describing the game mechanics as I assume they'd be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Ska Oreo 

And I'll repeat my answer again:  Yes, we do.

 

People are really that stupid.

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the continued idiocy of people.  So let me ask this question:  Is anyone who doesn't already know this going to watch these videos with enough of an open mind to get that?

Even though you may be preaching to the choir, you should still preach.

I think the Tomb Raider sequence is embarassing and fucking awful.

And just when I thought the whole "fat princess" thread debacle wouldnt be topped, im proven wrong.

is there no middle ground when it comes to gender issues in games? Although to be honest, the last game I played were character of both genders werent designed as stereotypes or sexual objects was the original "Condemned"...unless Lego games count.

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Originally Posted by wydren 

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the continued idiocy of people.  So let me ask this question:  Is anyone who doesn't already know this going to watch these videos with enough of an open mind to get that?

You might be surprised.  You may not know about the whole Rebecca Watson/ Elevator-gate affair, but in short : prominent female atheist comments on the behaviour of some men at atheist conventions (specifically one guy follows her from the hotel bar to the elevator at 4am to try and pick her up, after long post convention sesh.  kind of unnerves her a bit the way he did it.  She says in video 'Guys, don't do that.")  Entire online community just about implodes in the aftermath.

Frikkin amazing.  Anyway, big tangent, but in the time since I have seen quite a few (male) posters around saying all that hue and cry was actually quite informative in the end and now they see things differently.

That's one thing.  The other is these videos, if done well enough, should have other educational applications, including bringing the faculty itself up to speed.  Things are surely better than the last time I tried to explain video games to academics, but I reckon there'd still be plenty of the old guard (and new) who have no idea about this stuff. There's a lot more books and studies than there used to be, but most people get their info from just reading what others have written and studied. Depending on which end of the social sciences/humanities they come from it can also be devilishly hard to stop certain kinds of thinkers from taking basic mechanical details and running off in  flights of metaphorical meaning and interpretation ("no, it really doesn't matter what Anna Freud says about mice in a dreams, it's just a pointing device!") and you just want to hold them down and make them play the damn game so they get it.

I can see how this sort of thing would help there.

There's this tendency to see something with 'feminist' written on it as activism.  Which it is, but not necessarily in the picket line sense.  It's mostly research, observation and analysis.  This is kind of like a video text book, is my impression.

Nice post, Muzman. Well said.

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Originally Posted by wydren 

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the continued idiocy of people.  So let me ask this question:  Is anyone who doesn't already know this going to watch these videos with enough of an open mind to get that?

I'd like to believe that if out of every 5 individuals who look at these videos only one of them actually learns something, then I think she's done her job.

I spent some time reading some of the links posted on the kickstarter, and I've been reading some of the comments on those pages.  While it's nice that there are still intelligent people on the internet, I've noticed that the most often used argument against this project is that it's a "non-issue" because it's not directly attacking rape or misogyny.

Which inspires me to ask: Where do people think hate comes from?

The most popular belief is typically that the parents are to blame, and while that may be true in certain cases, I believe that we are a product of our environment--and that includes the massive amounts of media we ingest upon day-to-day basis.  If media can shape the way  people dress, talk, or act, isn't it likely that it could shape the way we think as well?  I'm not suggesting that there is a casual link between video games and misogyny; that would be as stupid as siding with Jack Thompson and proclaiming that video games train kids to kill.

However, I do believe that it is a factor to consider along with the many other things that shape us into the people we are today.  That shitty Hitman trailer might not make someone perform a rape, but it certainly isn't helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.  Having said all that, I'm not against all forms of titillation.  A good action film can provide me my daily dose of sex and violence, and I will engorge myself upon it happiily.  But I like to believe that I'm intelligent enough to realize that this is all fake, that this is not representative of a real world.  And as much as it might seem like I'm stating the obvious, I sadly think that what's been happening is proof of the contrary.  People keep saying that Sarkeesian should focus on "real-world problems" instead of video games (never mind the fact that that goes against the entire idea of video games being a legit medium--you know, the very thing we've been fighting for), but rape and murder and racism isn't going to stop unless we educate, and that's what this is--education.  The fact that there are so many people who seem to believe that something can only be sexist if it's overtly so kinda proves that there isn't enough education going around.

Re: the Lara Croft thing. Sony is saying it's not true at all:

"This is where Lara is forced to kill another human for the first time. In this particular section, while there is a threatening undertone in the sequence and surrounding drama, it never goes any further than the scenes that we have already shown publicly. Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme that we cover in this game.”

I've only seen the one E3 demo. Any of you folks seen the "threatening" sequence in question? The screengrab they show in connection to the above quote makes it look like Lara is rescuing a girl from a knife-wielding thug.

I have, and the whole tone's got this weird horror tone that just doesn't work whatsoever for the series.

But I don't know, nothing about the new Tomb Raider game appeals to me whatsoever.

I know they're going for a reboot, but it just looks like a Nathan Drake wannabe. I liked smart, self-assured, wisecracking Lara myself.

I actually could have gone for a Nathan Drake-style Lara Croft. But it looks like we're getting "Oh man! I saw half of The Descent and we totally need to copy that for the game!"

Which is the real line of thinking that keeps games from maturing.

On the one hand:  I'm alright with Tomb Raider getting a tonal makeover so that she's not simply Indian Jones with tits (though, I guess you could make the argument that she's now Nathan Drake with tits)

On the other hand:  It's kind of off-putting how much the trailers seem to revel in inflicting as much pain as possible upon Laura.  I mean, I know the point is to make her seem human, but sheesh....

Absolute bullshit.  The encounter doesn't go into full-blown attempted rape, but the implication is certainly there.

Dan Whitehead did a pretty great article on this: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-16-saturday-soapbox-in-games-we-trust. 

Dan is sorely missed 'round here.

"What we have is an aggressive older man trapping and fondling a young woman. Saying we don't see actual penetration doesn't change the fact that his actions are clearly a sinister prelude to something deeply unpleasant. It's clear where this is going, so at what point do we say that forced groping becomes attempted rape and is therefore no longer suitably entertaining? Pedantically insisting that there's no actual rape in the scene doesn't excuse the context of what we do see, a tiresomely common narrative crutch: the threat of sexual violence to provoke a passive female character into action.

It's worth pointing out that these few moments don't take place in a vacuum. Almost all the marketing for the game up to this point has emphasised the fact that this Lara is younger and more fragile, not the confident and poised adult explorer of 1996. The previous trailers and screenshots have all concentrated on Lara's suffering and fear. Bruised, bloodied and smeared with dirt, it's the sort of imagery more commonly associated with the victims of gritty torture porn horror than the Indiana Jones adventuring we associate with the brand."