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MCP: YOU DON’T TRY TO RAISE MONEY FOR A FEMINIST GAMING DOCUMENTARY WITHOUT MAKING A FEW ENEMIES - Page 2

post #51 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


It says that Croft will already be a skilled and strong character by the time this happens in the plot, and that she won't in fact be raped at all if you do the quick time event correcty (or whatever it is they're talking about).

 

 

"PRESS X TO NOT BE RAPED" Really?

 

Seriously, the whole idea is fucking awful. For a start, all anyone knew about Lara originally was that she was in a plane/boat crash of some kind, got stranded somewhere alone and she learned to survive, with the end result being the present-day, super cool adventurer. Now they're showing off trailers with a strong torture porn vibe where she's either whimpering or screaming in pain almost every other second and, the icing on the shit-filled cake, putting her in a situation where she's being sexually assaulted.

 

It's funny that someone should mention Samus, given how Other M was a completely horrendous hatchet job on an otherwise generally great female character. Throughout the whole series, Samus had been this lone hero who gets things done, saves the galaxy several times and always coming across as professional, capable and badass. Then Other M comes out and she's constantly seeking approval from some dude, second guessing herself as a result and generally acting nothing like the Samus everyone knows and loves. The amount of damage that shitpile has done to the character cannot be overstated.

 

Look at it this way - you never see male characters treated in this kind of manner, do you? You'll never get an Uncharted: The Early Years where it turns out the defining experience of Drake's college days was getting bummed by mad mercenaries and/or forced into a series of disturbing sexual situations. No, if anything it'd be some amazingly pretty girl he liked getting killed and giving him the drive and determination to be the best adventure he can be, or some such cliched bobbins. Likewise, it will never turn out that the Master Chief was molested by an instructor at Spartan Camp or whatever.

post #52 of 99
Thread Starter 

I'm all for the new Tomb Raider's style. Like Uncharted, the protagonist sustaining injuries that actually matter, and they carry through gameplay? Cool. There's still a line, though, and the more voyeuristic we make those injuries, the more that creepy vibe people are getting becomes the text, not the fact that she's hurt. It reminds me too much of how early Wonder Woman comics always had her getting tied up and struggling, *just* so "a certain audience" could get off. "Press X To Not Get Raped", "Game Over, You Were Raped, Try Again" are so far past that line as to be getting their mail forwarded out there.

 

The fact that the developers are going into Tomb Raider with the mindset that the player will have an attitude of "I'll save you, Lara!" versus "Come on, Lara, you can do this" (which, for the vast, unending laundry list of hatreds I have for the previous games in this series, the character being self-assured is not one) leads me to believe there's a chance this gets worse before it gets better. I want to believe otherwise, but like Mr. Whitehead said, I dont trust games.

post #53 of 99

Watching the entire internet, led by the laughable "new gaming press" flip its collective shit over something used innumerable times before in fiction of any media leaves me with only two options.

 

First, to ironically use the Mass Effect 3 defense. Which is to call them entitled babies that are trying to force artists to compromise their vision.

 

Second, to repeat what I've been saying time and time again when such things come up. That you must stumble before you walk and walk before you run. That you must live with Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill! before you can get Blue Valentine. But since it will be ignored again I will leave everyone with their self hate and their agendas and not bother again with anything as laughable as a serious discussion about games.

 

One last thing. "Torture porn" is as valid a term for movies as "murder simulator" is for games.

post #54 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

But since it will be ignored again I will leave everyone with their self hate and their agendas and not bother again with anything as laughable as a serious discussion about games.

 

Now, now. Come back to the table.  

post #55 of 99
Thread Starter 

So, you don't think the fact that it *has* been used innumerable times already to be cause for maybe coming up with a new solution? Especially when the old solutions being used on a character who, for the longest time, was one of the strongest female protagonists in existence, WITHOUT resorting to that very tired cliche?

 

Games have been speaking the language of modern film for nearly 15 years now. If it's going to ape the established medium so much, but not take advantage of ALL the narrative inroads that are possible, it *should* have its motives questioned.

post #56 of 99

Exactly. The stumble before you walk thing is ridiculous, there's decades worth of bad decisions which should serve as lessons, examples to avoid, not repeat. The games industry is not in a bubble and those producing, writing, and marketing them aren't living in eras of less enlightened attitudes of times gone by. They should be aware of what is and isn't acceptable, and what can alienate/offend audiences.

post #57 of 99

OK, Singer.

 

So it take it you guys are equally disturbed by the threat or application of sexual violence in films or movies? Or are you, for some reason, using different rules for gaming?

post #58 of 99

Not equally, certainly.  But I'm still disturbed by the cheap application of sexual violence towards women in cinema.  Just recently, I thought it came off pretty tasteless in Fincher's remake of Dragon Tattoo. 

 

And I'm definitely using different 'rules' for gaming due to the interactive nature of it.  That brings a whole new angle into the discussion in a way I'm not sure what to make of. 

 

I'm curious though... what happens if the player chooses to fumble the QTE during the sexual assault in Tomb Raider just to see what happens?

 

I AM SINGER.

post #59 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I'm curious though... what happens if the player chooses to fumble the QTE during the sexual assault in Tomb Raider just to see what happens?

 

 

She keeps fighting until he kills her.

post #60 of 99
Thread Starter 
Think of 10 movies with sexual threats and violence as a major plot point. How many of them use that violence to make a point, where the character, or even A character is aware of that threat, what it means, and the director, writer uses it with purpose and meaning.

Now, name 5 games where that's the case.
post #61 of 99
Thread Starter 
And let me be entirely clear: I don't think anyones saying DON'T use sexism or sexuality as a storytelling tool, even as far as rape goes. The problem is that one doesn't have to search far for counterbalance to that material when it comes to film. Video games, as a storytelling medium, dont have that.
post #62 of 99

For myself, I'll always be on the 'games = art' bandwagon, if because nothing else a simple historical take would inform one that the 'art' deniers tend to be on the losing side of the argument (see photography, film, comics, rock and roll, etc.). Of course, I want daring and intriguing forays into new subject matter. I want developers to be bold and take chances. Even though I have zero interest in, say, Lollipop Chainsaw, I don't neccessarily want it shouted down because of its depiction of a scantily-clad teenage psychopath. I'm not made of stone.

 

But I do want to be aware of other's viewpoints, particularly those viewpoints I may not be accustomed to hearing -- people who've been violated, or secluded, or marginalized, or otherwise ignored. At 51, I often take for granted that I've 'seen it all', 'done it all', and in some ways I have (trust me -- novel forthcoming). But today, when people -- reasonable people, mind you -- raise objections, I make sure I take a second look. And I guarantee you I'm one of those people mentioned above who've been educated and awakened after hearing an unfamiliar point of view.

post #63 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

And let me be entirely clear: I don't think anyones saying DON'T use sexism or sexuality as a storytelling tool, even as far as rape goes. The problem is that one doesn't have to search far for counterbalance to that material when it comes to film. Video games, as a storytelling medium, don't.

 

But how are we to aquire these counerbalancing instances if we raise a storm every time a game even skirts close to such subjects? Should games be the sole medium that somehow magically avoids the bell curve distrubution from utter shit to brilliant every other thing in the universe has?

post #64 of 99

Why don't you all stop clutching your pearls and shut the fuck up about this subject. This sounds like some feminist art school cunt trying to start shit to make a name for herself and line her bank account. Complaining about gender roles in videogames is like bitching about violence in a war movie. Who does this retard think is the primary buyer of videogames? Seriously, this is like fucking complaining that Playboy features beautiful naked women. What's being sold is a fantasy and what most men want are hot chicks with big tits. I'd be willing to bet that this fugly skanks problem is that she didn't get some hot football player she wanted in high school because he was fucking some cheerleader and what she really craves is some deep core cock drilling that she didn't get from the videogame playing mooks that she was left with which has left her with a severe case of self loathing rage issues that she wants to take out on everyone else.  

post #65 of 99

Oh hi! Long time no see. Bye!

post #66 of 99

Well, there you go.  Proof positive that this video series is absolutely necessary.
 

post #67 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

 

But how are we to aquire these counerbalancing instances if we raise a storm every time a game even skirts close to such subjects? Should games be the sole medium that somehow magically avoids the bell curve distrubution from utter shit to brilliant every other thing in the universe has?

 

You know what game did it right? Red Dead Redemption. The implication is HEAVY that Bonnie McFarlane gets raped, or at very minimum is threatened to do so by the Williamson gang before she gets hanged. She's shaken, and subdued after, fully recovered by the end, but always reacts like a thinking, strong-willed woman all the way through. The rape/threat has an effect, and we see her, and the main character, deal with it as just another brick on their complex relationship. Zero media reaction. Thats because the shitstorm you mention only happens when someone uses the trope and strikes the wrong chord. It's a thin rope you walk using a sensitive topic, You do it right, you'll hear zero complaints. It's the difference between Louis CK using "That nigger made the shit out of my coffee!" as a punchline and Michael Richards screaming "YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF NIGGERS!" to rile up a crowd that doesn't like his set.

post #68 of 99

OK. So this is the sequence. She tries to hide and sneak away. He catches her and she fights back. He becomes more aggressive and she yet she does not stop. Shit then gets creepy and suggestive (though never said outright) and they wrestle to the ground. Then the QTE happens. The player either succeeds in which case she gets his gun and kills him (her first time killing someone in the game) or they fail in which case she keeps fighting so hard he can't subdue her and ends up killing her.

 

I get two things from this. First, that she literally had to be pushed to the absolute brink before killing a human. Second, that she's the kind of person that never stops fighting and trying even in the face of death. Diegetically, I don't see how either of these are in any way detrimental to Lara Croft as a character. Am I reading this wrong? Where is this wrong chord I keep not hearing?

post #69 of 99
Thread Starter 

And again, for me, the intent is sound. The question and problem is, why does it *have* to be suggestive, just because it's a female in peril?

post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

And again, for me, the intent is sound. The question and problem is, why does it have to be suggestive, just because it's a female in peril?

It just seems to me that it's a fear women have to deal with, so why wouldn't Laura confront that when she's alone on the island?
post #71 of 99
Thread Starter 

If this was one instance in a vast variety of strong women put into dangerous situations in "serious" video games, it'd be one thing. Problem is, sexual/gender threats are the predominant way women are endangered in "serious" games. Its the lack of creativity on top of the whole picture giving kind of a fucked up picture of how men conceive women.

post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

If this was one instance in a vast variety of strong women put into dangerous situations in "serious" video games, it'd be one thing. Problem is, sexual/gender threats are the predominant way women are endangered in "serious" games. Its the lack of creativity on top of the whole picture giving kind of a fucked up picture of how men conceive women.

 

So push for more variety and you'd have me backing you up. Push for more strong female characters and you'd have me backing you up. Push for more creativity and you'd have me backing you up. Push for having sexual or gender threats against male protagonists and you'd have me backing you up.

 

The major problem with video games is that they are at heart male power fantasies. We should be pushing game makers to subvert that. Not gender wash everything to the point of being able to slot a protagonist of any gender without altering the storyline. At least not in all games. I'd be the first one applauding a fantasy RPG where the protagonist is a eunuch, for example. Have a badass warrior facing the post apocalyptic wilderness trying to get home to his husband. Have a soldier cut off behind enemy lines that has to survive while having to account for being pregnant. Wanna play a female character in your RPG? Cool but no lesbian romance options cop-out for you buddy. Romance dudes. Or the opposite. Where are the bloggers and journalists pushing at Naughty Dog to take a chance?

 

The way I feel we should pushing for the medium to go forward is not through reduction but through enrichment. Not through slapping developers on the wrist for over-extending but through forcefully shoving them out of their comfort zones. I have never seen gender equality as a grey featureless state of interchangability. We should be pushing for more of everything not recoiling.

post #73 of 99
Thread Starter 

And  on that, I think we can come to an accord. But really, what that comes down to is quality over quantity. Its not enough that game developers have these ideas, but that there's better people on the creative side willing to make the push. Avoiding the obvious cliches is a big part of it, though.

post #74 of 99

I think games will be better when we realize that most of the people writing them have all the dramatic depth and skill of a Dragonlance fanfiction writer. Because it sure as shit doesn't matter how much they happen to be "subverting" anything or how we need to force games outside of their "comfort zones" when the developers themselves are mostly incapable of figuring out how to create an interactive narrative that actually works.

 

And as far as games dealing with rape and sexual assault, I'm fundamentally with Dan Whitehead's article. I haven't seen one game that looks even vaguely emotionally mature enough to tackle it, and I doubt I will any time soon.

post #75 of 99

And let me state I absolutely adore gaming. But I see the flaws of the industry and I'm more inclined to believe it's due to the people running it as opposed to some sort of "Well it's not like films started cranking out masterpieces at the start" viewpoint.

post #76 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post
And as far as games dealing with rape and sexual assault, I'm fundamentally with Dan Whitehead's article. I haven't seen one game that looks even vaguely emotionally mature enough to tackle it, and I doubt I will any time soon.

 

Silent Hill 2 did it. But even then, even Konami seems to have no idea how they got that game to work.

post #77 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post
And as far as games dealing with rape and sexual assault, I'm fundamentally with Dan Whitehead's article. I haven't seen one game that looks even vaguely emotionally mature enough to tackle it, and I doubt I will any time soon.

 

Yup, Silent Hill 2 succeeded at this; I might not remember it right, but I think Sanitarium (PC) had shades of this too, and Ive heard (not 100% sure here) that its touched upon on the Game of Thrones RPG.

You still could count the examples on a blind butcher's hand, though.

 

EDIT: The Phantasmagoria games do not count as far as im concerned; they were horrible in the subject matter, and the second one somehow managed to top the first.

post #78 of 99

No one's done it before so why try?

post #79 of 99

Oh they're free to try, but they'll have to go through the ringer first.  It's not gonna be for free!

post #80 of 99

So does anyone else think Ms. Sarkeesian goes a bit into straw feminist herself in some of these videos when she says stuff like women shouldn't inspire men or suggests that Bram Stoker's Dracula is sexist because the brides of Dracula use their sexuality to seduce Keanu?  Or is it just me?

post #81 of 99

Not really.

post #82 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by wydren View Post

So does anyone else think Ms. Sarkeesian goes a bit into straw feminist herself in some of these videos when she says stuff like women shouldn't inspire men or suggests that Bram Stoker's Dracula is sexist because the brides of Dracula use their sexuality to seduce Keanu?  Or is it just me?

That criticism of Coppola's Dracula just seems like it's deliberately missing the point, and it seriously undermines her credibility to single out instances of powerful female sexuality in the film as examples of sexism, when the entire movie is about contrasting the ravenous allure of the vampire - male and female - with the repressed sexuality of Victorian England.
post #83 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post

Not really.

So do you think people shouldn't be inspired by others, or is it specifically the men being inspired by women that you think is wrong?

post #84 of 99

I don't really find myself bothered by any bits of provocative statements or opinions she has.

post #85 of 99

I spent some time watching through most of her videos last night and found that she's improved significantly in terms of presentation and articulation to a fantastic degree.  Her earliest videos mostly came across as any Youtube user posting thoughts on a webcam (though she still had graphic overlays on the side).

 

She still has this tendency to editorialize some bit of ridiculousness with an eyeroll, which I love.  But she also says that her work is being used in educational environments more and more.  And in that spirit, I feel it might be wise to curb that tendency.  I'm torn though... because sometimes an eyeroll really is the only reaction one can have to some of these things she points out.

 

ME MAN TELL HER WHAT TO DOOOO!!!!

 

So which video is the one in which she talks about Dracula and men influencing women?  I don't think I ran across that one.

post #86 of 99
Thread Starter 

The first time I ever came across her was her reaction to Sucker Punch, which is sadly the least measured or articulate video she did, and not just because I disagree with her on a lot of it. She has gotten a lot better with time.

post #87 of 99

And that's actually a more recent one sandwiched between much better videos.  In that case, her lack of measured articulation was very much the point by her own admission.  She hated the shit out of Sucker Punch.

post #88 of 99

Regardless of whether or not you agree with her, the very fact that we can have an intelligent argument over the positives and negatives of this argument is good for us.  At least, it's better than the incessant trolling and teh "LALALAALAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! STOP CRITICIZING THE THINGS I LIKE!!!" that seems to be present every time this discussion comes up.

 

 

This is why I love CHUD.

post #89 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I spent some time watching through most of her videos last night and found that she's improved significantly in terms of presentation and articulation to a fantastic degree.  Her earliest videos mostly came across as any Youtube user posting thoughts on a webcam (though she still had graphic overlays on the side).

 

She still has this tendency to editorialize some bit of ridiculousness with an eyeroll, which I love.  But she also says that her work is being used in educational environments more and more.  And in that spirit, I feel it might be wise to curb that tendency.  I'm torn though... because sometimes an eyeroll really is the only reaction one can have to some of these things she points out.

 

ME MAN TELL HER WHAT TO DOOOO!!!!

 

So which video is the one in which she talks about Dracula and men influencing women?  I don't think I ran across that one.

The women inspiring men is in the video on Manic Pixie Dream Girls, and Dracula is in the Evil Demon Seductress video.   Admittedly the Manic Pixie Dream Girl is the first video she did, so it may be a little rough.  I just don't think that inspiring a guy and being a real human being are mutually exclusive.  My wife inspires me to be a better man every day, while being her own person.  In fact, her being her own person is why I love her.  And the Dracula thing just strikes me as her grasping for examples, as the entire movie is about vampires using sexuality, both male & female (in fact, most if it is male).

 

Granted, these are really the only problems I have with the videos.  She makes a ton of good points, and you'd pretty much have to be looking for problems to find these.

post #90 of 99

Oh, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope.  I've seen that. 

 

Her point isn't that inspiring a guy and being a real human being are mutually exclusive.  It's just that the trope works that way too frequently since the guy is the lead character and the MPDG really only exists as a narrative construct to help the guy better himself.  As she brings up, it's just treating the female character as a muse rather than a fully fleshed out human being.  I really don't think she thinks women can't inspire men in real life.  She's just talking about it in terms of tropes in pop narratives.

 

And in the case of Dracula (which I haven't seen, so correct me if I'm wrong), it's that the women in vampire stories often only serve that trope.  Male vampires are heavily sexualized as well, clearly.  But they are also the dominant characters and get to be defined by more than just the sexuality.

 

Her usual point is that none of these tropes would be a problem if anyone who is a non-hetero-white-male got more substantial roles in pop culture.  A white male playing a vampire doesn't have to worry about being solely defined by the sexuality of the character.  He'll usually be the lead.  Everyone else is merely used as tokens.

 

Her MPDG video is actually pretty recent as well (it's from last year).  It's much better produced than her earliest videos (from 2009).  Also about vampires.  See below. 

 

post #91 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
Also about vampires.

 

Hm.  I'm detecting a theme.

 

Anyway, yeah, I can see all that.  Like I said, my complaints are minor quibbles, really only to generate discussion by saying that someone looking to discredit her could use those points to throw everything she says in the bin and label her a man-hating feminazi (I think I spelled that right?  I'm not looking it up because I don't want that in my search history).  But if they're going to do that, they weren't going to listen to anything she says anyway.

 

Also, Yahtzee weighs in on the Tomb Raider thing for a few minutes in his latest video.  In short, he thinks it's unnecessarily creepy as well.
 

post #92 of 99

Okay this blog entry is so fuckin good I'm posting it in full. I'd be fascinated to see responses to this...

 

 

 

Quote:

 

Maturity, revisited

June 23, 2012 – 3:03 pm, by Daniel Golding

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Photo by Scott Fiddelke

Terrible things have been happening in videogames culture.

In February, BioWare writer Jennifer Hepler was the subject of seething, Reddit-led internet vitriol because she had, five years earlier, stated that she sometimes preferred narrative over action in videogames. The reposting of an edited excerpt of the interview on Reddit where Hepler stated this led to an awful and very personal campaign that saw Hepler called “a cancer,” and harassed by twitter, email, and phone.

Three weeks ago, a trailer for the upcoming Hitman: Absolution featured the gory killing of a group of women assassins dressed in S&M-type ‘sexy’ nun outfits by the game’s protagonist, Agent 47. The response to the trailer was all-encompassing. If it was designed to create controversy and draw attention, it did its job well, with criticism coming from locations as diverse as IGNDaily MirrorRock Paper Shotgun, and Brendan Keogh’s Critical Damage. About a week later, the developers of Hitman, IO Interactive, apologised with a classic: “We just wanted to make something cool, it wasn’t the intention to stir up anything.”

Two weeks ago, Ron Rosenberg, the executive producer of the new Tomb Raider game, toldKotaku, “When people play Lara, they don’t really project themselves into the character … They’re more like ‘I want to protect her.’ There’s this sort of dynamic of ‘I’m going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.’” Rosenberg also noted a sequence where an enemy tries to rape Croft, and she’s forced to fight back: “It’s a huge step in her evolution: she’s forced to either fight back or die.” After substantial criticism of both remarks, Crystal Dynamics, the studio behind the game, released a statement denying that there is an attempted rape sequence in the game, and that “Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme that we cover in this game.” As far as I know, the patronising suggestion that gamers don’t empathise with Croft in the same way as a male character has not been addressed in the same way.

All this time, Anita Sarkeesian was running a Kickstarter campaign for funding for her project ‘Tropes vs. Women in Video Games’. In return, Sarkeesian was subject to an “organized and sustained effort” of harassment. In her own words:

“The intimidation and harassment effort has included a torrent of misogyny and hate speech on my YouTube video, repeated vandalizing of the Wikipedia page about me, organized efforts to flag my YouTube videos as “terrorism”, as well as many threatening messages sent through Twitter, Facebook, Kickstarter, email and my own website. These messages and comments have included everything from the typical sandwich and kitchen “jokes” to threats of violence, death, sexual assault and rape. All that plus an organized attempt to report this project to Kickstarter and get it banned or defunded. Thankfully, Kickstarter has been incredibly supportive in helping me deal with the harassment on their service.”

Nonetheless, Sarkeesian’s project was successfully funded, exceeding its target of $6000 by an enormous factor, eventually raising $158,922. Aside from Sarkeesian’s own dismaying account of what occurred, which you can find through her Kickstarter page, there’s a good summary at the New Statesman.

 

What can we make of all of this, of these terrible things?

How about this: the deepest irony about videogames culture is that as much as popular gaming stereotypes are decried and challenged, much of videogame culture does in fact live up to the cliche.

The gamers who attacked Sarkeesian and Hepler are every bit as immature and uncritical as the mainstream media think gamers are. The marketers behind Hitman: Absolution and the producer of Tomb Raider are every bit as unsophisticated and thoughtless as the moral guardians of society make videogames out to be. And I haven’t even touched on the general low quality on show at this year’s E3 videogames expo, where the sheer volume of uncritical violence displayed exceeded any anti-game lobbyist’s fantasy.

It’s often argued that images of videogames and gamers are manipulated by the mainstream in their eagerness to tap into prevalent “kids today!” dismay. This is too simple, and too easy. It may be that the mainstream approaches videogames in simplistic terms, but the images are there to begin with. The violence, the sexism, the racism, the homophobia: it’s all there. Gamers have brought this upon themselves.

My very first post here at Crikey—titled ‘Maturity’—was about looking beyond the cliches to see who actually played videogames, and what kinds of games were available. At the time, I argued that “for the most part, a lot of public engagement with videogames revolves around the question of maturity.” We think videogames are for kids, I argued, but actually, the range of people who play them is far more complex.

I still very much stand behind that statement, but I think it’s also important to realise that the most vocal sections of videogame culture resembles exactly the stereotypes that gamers get so offended by.

The original title I had in mind for this post was ‘Giving Up On Games Culture’. The point had been reached, I was going to argue, where so little of worth remained about videogames culture as a discreet entity that it wasn’t worth trying to salvage anymore. Don’t give up on games, but do give up on games culture.

I don’t think I believe that. In my original ‘Maturity’ post, I also said this:

“In 2012, videogames are utterly, quintessentially part of mainstream culture. And yet they are also fundamentally outside of, and excluded from the mainstream. Everyone is part of videogame culture, and everyone is outside of videogame culture.”

It’s important to remember that what I’ve described above is not just a videogame problem. At least two of these events can also be directly tied to greater cultures of internet misogyny and anonymous commenting habits, at the very least, if not global anti-women values online and offline.

This is not a move to downgrade the meaning of the crisis (“Oh, but it happens all the time, you know”), but to upscale it, and recognise that videogame culture can get away with it because global culture can get away with it. Seeing this as exclusively a ‘videogames issue’ is failure of understanding how videogames culture works. There are specific structures and cultural values that allow it to be a recurrent problem in the videogame world, and this is not to deny or downplay these structures and values.

But to most effectively grasp these videogame-specific issues, we need to look outside the medium’s culture as if it was isolated and self-contained. How does this connect with the twitter movement, #mencallmethings? How does it connect with Sophie Cunningham’sexcellent Melbourne Writer’s Festival address, where she argued that “Leaders in this country are actively cultivating a climate in which women are bullied into disappearing—even further—from our culture’s public spaces”?

How does it connect with us, in Australia, where our currently-serving first female Prime Minister is routinely subject to comments and criticism specific to her sex? How does it connect with the protest signs that called her a ‘bitch’, signs that our federal opposition leader was happy to stand in front of? How does it connect to the way in which our ‘intelligentsia’ discuss women on the national broadcaster using words like ‘greedy,’ ‘tart,’ and ‘floozy’?

The point here is how meaningful a discussion we can have while drawing a line between the videogame world and the non-videogame world. Everyone is part of videogame culture, and everyone is outside of videogame culture.

 

It’s also about responses. Critics are getting more and more effective and loud at calling out the terrible things about videogame culture. Charlie Brooker, in his excellent column for The Guardian, is a particularly influential—and effective—example of this kind of response: “The trouble for the games industry is that on some level it believes it has to pander to these monumental bellwastes. It doesn’t, and it’ll only gain widespread acceptance when it learns to ignore them.” More locally, Brendan KeoghDavid Rayfield and Katie Williams have done some excellent work recently. Even more personally, actress Aisha Tylor provided a powerful response to personal attacks she received after hosting Ubisoft’s E3 press conference.

But on some level, calling people out is not enough. Take a look at this article by David Surman at GayGamer.com, from 2007. Five years ago, Surman describes a scenario that is eerily similar to either the Hitman or Tomb Raider episodes (in fact, Kane and Lynch, the game Surman discusses, is made by IO Interactive, the same company behind Hitman).

Hitman and Tomb Raider rhetorically position themselves by using such shock tactics in their marketing. They pander, as Brooker says, to “these monumental bellwastes,” but they also understand the reaction that they will cause by doing so, no matter how much they claim they don’t mean to. By deliberately offending one demographic, they gain credibility with others. It isn’t that “all publicity is good publicity,” it’s that these are carefully calculated  marketing moves that take advantage of moral outrage in order to position a product.

There is only so far that criticism can take us in these scenarios. Do you think that all of Sarkeesian’s anonymous YouTube commenters read the well-written opinion pieces that challenged their obnoxious actions? Do they even know they exist?

Worse, it seems that sometimes, such public challenging merely reinforces such world views further: take this article at CVG, which claims that a survey they ran suggested the majority of respondents thought the videogames media had ‘manufactured’ the Tomb Raidercontroversy. The anti-misogyny, ‘feminazi’ conspiracy blurs into an amorphous, coherent antagonist for these people.

It is therefore just as important to try and drown out these elements of games culture as it is to try and challenge them. They draw power from their ability to see themselves as the ‘real’ normal, something that is encouraged by videogame companies when their marketing targets such ‘dissenting’ views by deliberately courting controversy. By being one of the loudest voices in the room, they are also more able to define videogames as a male dominated cultural space (a claim far from the truth). By presenting sexism as a gaming problem isolated from the rest of the world, we unintentionally give some centrality to these voices.

There are no moral arguments being made by sexist YouTube commenters. What is instead being claimed is authority. The ‘real’ gamer is someone who gives little truck to arguments of misogyny. This is how the rhetoric goes.

The best challenge, then, is to also present other, more effective narratives. Women make up almost half of those who play videogames in Australia. The best videogames this year have been completely free of all sexism. Game designers are people like Anna Anthropy. Australia’s best videogame journalists and critics are women. Sarkeesian’s project raised $158,922.

Everyone is part of videogame culture, and everyone is outside of videogame culture. Videogames, and videogame culture are a multiplicity. If nothing else, we have the power to shape what is most visible, and by inference, what is most powerful.

 

post #93 of 99

Oh cool, another grenade for me to jump on!

 

First let me get a few things out of the way. I have stated, I think, my opinion on the Tomb Raider stuff earlier on. The Hitman trailer was a laughable waste of pixels that I never even watched in full. The trolls threatening Sarkeesian are shitgoblins. I actually gave money to her Kickstarter because I love gaming theory. Finally, vile as they were, the attacks on Hepler did not come out of the blue. The amount of shit David Gaider had been getting on the internet about Dragon Age dwarfs what happened with her. But it happened as part of an actual narrative, with perceived reasons having little to do with her gender. Let me try to put it in a few sentences. The original Dragon Age was a quintessentially Western RPG. It was recived very well by critics and fans alike and sold better better than any Bioware game up until then. For Dragon Age 2 a shift in direction was noticed. Suddenly you couldn't equip your party because (and this is a quote) Bioware wanted people "to cosplay as the characters more easily." The branching moved form the plot of the game to the relationship stuff. The tactics were 'streamlined' so that "more people can experience it." There were talks (later implemented on Mass Effect 3) of a story mode where you could skip the gameplay and stick with the story. There was already a huge amount of shit being flung around. So when that interview came up, and it was far less edited than was Bioware's side of the story, suddenly everyone thought "She did it!" and diverted their attacks her way.

 

"But why the insults to her gender, Stel?" you'd ask. "Because they hurt more", I'd reply. It reminds me a conversation I had with my mother some years back. I was watching a match and there was a constant stream of chanting aimed at the mothers and wives of the players. "Why?" she asked me. "What did their mothers ever do to them?" It got me thinking about insults and threats and this is where I arrived. I live in Greece and a supremely elevated position of the mother is the cultural norm. You can see it even in religion. People don't pary to God or Jesus for help the most. They pray to Mary. She's only marginally less venerated than the Trinity and much more loved. In short, we love our mothers. A lot. They are completely off limits when it comes to criticism, much less to insults. "Your mother" jokes among friends simply do not happen here. So when you want to really insult someone you don't insult him, you insult his mother. The skewing of the attacks towards the recipient's gender comes I think form the same place.

 

More in a while. 

post #94 of 99

The Hepler shit was and is stupid.

post #95 of 99

For some reason, i find it hilarious that the Lingerie Football League (yes, that sport thats american football played by women in lingerie) got licensed for a videogame while this all happened...to be developed by the same japanese studi that did all female wrestling game Rumble Roses.

I hope they add some dignified narrative to career mode!

post #96 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

Oh cool, another grenade for me to jump on!

 

First let me get a few things out of the way. I have stated, I think, my opinion on the Tomb Raider stuff earlier on. The Hitman trailer was a laughable waste of pixels that I never even watched in full. The trolls threatening Sarkeesian are shitgoblins. I actually gave money to her Kickstarter because I love gaming theory. Finally, vile as they were, the attacks on Hepler did not come out of the blue. The amount of shit David Gaider had been getting on the internet about Dragon Age dwarfs what happened with her. But it happened as part of an actual narrative, with perceived reasons having little to do with her gender. Let me try to put it in a few sentences. The original Dragon Age was a quintessentially Western RPG. It was recived very well by critics and fans alike and sold better better than any Bioware game up until then. For Dragon Age 2 a shift in direction was noticed. Suddenly you couldn't equip your party because (and this is a quote) Bioware wanted people "to cosplay as the characters more easily." The branching moved form the plot of the game to the relationship stuff. The tactics were 'streamlined' so that "more people can experience it." There were talks (later implemented on Mass Effect 3) of a story mode where you could skip the gameplay and stick with the story. There was already a huge amount of shit being flung around. So when that interview came up, and it was far less edited than was Bioware's side of the story, suddenly everyone thought "She did it!" and diverted their attacks her way.

 

"But why the insults to her gender, Stel?" you'd ask. "Because they hurt more", I'd reply. It reminds me a conversation I had with my mother some years back. I was watching a match and there was a constant stream of chanting aimed at the mothers and wives of the players. "Why?" she asked me. "What did their mothers ever do to them?" It got me thinking about insults and threats and this is where I arrived. I live in Greece and a supremely elevated position of the mother is the cultural norm. You can see it even in religion. People don't pary to God or Jesus for help the most. They pray to Mary. She's only marginally less venerated than the Trinity and much more loved. In short, we love our mothers. A lot. They are completely off limits when it comes to criticism, much less to insults. "Your mother" jokes among friends simply do not happen here. So when you want to really insult someone you don't insult him, you insult his mother. The skewing of the attacks towards the recipient's gender comes I think form the same place.

 

More in a while. 

So does that somehow makes it better?  "Oh, they only meant to insult her gender as a means to hurt her, not necessarily because they're sexist pigs."  Either way, it's still pretty shitty--regardless of the reasoning.  While the Hepler attacks may not have started out as being gender-based, they certainly became so once the attacks were directed at her sex.  I'm not saying that every single one of those comments were made by frothing misogynist looking to put a woman in her place, but I'm  certainly not going to discount the fact that it's rather troubling that they made the comments in the first place.  The same goes with the attacks on specific persons sexuality or race; I don't believe that these insults are simply made for the sake of it. 

post #97 of 99

Who said anything about it being in any way better? It's just not "She's a woman, get her!" Their comments were exaggerated and shaped by their misogyny, not caused by it. I'm not seeing anyone going after Amy Henning, Kim Swift or Lucy Bradshaw.

post #98 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

Who said anything about it being in any way better? It's just not "She's a woman, get her!" Their comments were exaggerated and shaped by their misogyny, not caused by it. I'm not seeing anyone going after Amy Henning, Kim Swift or Lucy Bradshaw.

But can we both agree that if any of these women spoke negatively gaming culture, that they'd be place in a similar situation?

post #99 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post

But can we both agree that if any of these women spoke negatively gaming culture, that they'd be place in a similar situation?

 

Nope.

 

Not more than any male developer with a similar reputation, anyway. Remember this is the internet. I've seen John Carmack's tech credentials questioned by people who probably can't tell C from LOGO. Making applicable to real life sociological observations form it is a risky proposition at best. 

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