THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN post release discussion - Page 13

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Originally Posted by Engineer 

 

And there's more evidence regarding what the "Untold Story" is about Parker's Destiny.  You know how movie tie-in merchandise - like tie-in novels based on shooting scripts - can refer to story elements that were later removed from a film's final cut just before the film is released?  Well, just having just watched the first ten minutes of a walkthrough of THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN videogame, there's a sizable story element from what might've been the original script that could corroborate the theory of just what Peter's dad was really working on ("The Untold Story") and what certain lines from the film's trailer might be referring to.  Something that they'll probably make a big, huge deal of in any sequels.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

Of course they could keep or alter or delete this story element entirely, so who knows what Sony and Webb will do given how they've decided to drag things out?  That said...  In the first ten minutes of the video game, three times or so, they make mention of Connors' cross-species experiments.  And that there are other cross-species lurking around Oscorp -- including something that looks suspiciously like The Rhino.  But, twice in five minutes, Peter Parker/Spider-Man is reacted-to or attacked-by other cross-species creatures that are said to (paraphrased) "only react that way to their own kind."  There are also robots that flip out when Spidey's in the room and mechanically alert "cross-species detected."  

 

It feels like this is a huge hint that matches the above linked concept that Peter wasn't really given his powers by that spider bite in the blue room, but that said bite might have been a catalyst for something he already had inside him, probably a cross-species spider serum (like the cross-species lizard serum, but maybe secretly perfected by Richard Parker) given to Peter as a child by Richard -- as could be seen with the material on Richard Parker's desk (a spider in a jar) just before the Parkers leave Peter with Ben and May.  And this ties in with that line in the trailer that seems to have been from the removed scene between Oscorp's Mr. Ratha and Peter. ("Do you have any idea... what you really are?")

 

So...  While anything could change between now and any sequels, and unless the videogame goes off on a whole other tangent regarding the nature of cross-breeding, the article above's suspicions are possibly confirmed.  And apologies if this is old news already.  I just watched the game video and found it interesting.  

 

This had been brought up awhile back, to which my initial response was and still is: how's that any different than Ang Lee's Hulk?

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Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

Yes!  YEESSSSSS.  Continue fueling my disdain towards this movie.  It is my PROMETHEUS!

 

I, NOOJ, now lead!  Let all who love this movie, STEEEEEEP FORWAAAARD!!!

 

"Cough" Raises hand.

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Originally Posted by Freeman 

Raimi painstakingly designed a logical smart reason for Pete to design the suit, a reason that it has the red and blue look, why it's kind of a cheesy wrestling outfit that hides his identity

He also injected a bit of humor to it (from what I recall anyways.)  They show Peter going through the paper drawing phase to come up with this great looking, straight-from-the-pages of Marvel comics, stylized suit.  As the audience, we sort of go along with it, accepting the wink-wink that a professionally manufactured looking suit miraculously arises out of necessity, only to soon cut to Peter being unveiled ringside wearing a shoddily made "suit" of sweater and sweatpants.

Haven't seen this new film yet, do they do anything to sort of help the audience along with touches of humor?

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Originally Posted by felix 

 

"Cough" Raises hand.

That's my cue to make a hasty retreat!!!

Neeyoi!

I found this to be very enjoyable. All of the actors do very well with the material and I thought the action was much better done than the Raimi movies. It's a little long and you can tell where story points were dropped or cut around. If your up for watching the origin again it's a good time. The lizard was fairly well done too, but it would have been nice if Curt Conner's family had been included. I'll be interested to see where the sequel goes.

Originally Posted by Shaun H 

This had been brought up awhile back, to which my initial response was and still is: how's that any different than Ang Lee's Hulk?

Not too different, if they decide keep this narrative thread through the next film(s).  I read that Kurtzman & Orci are writing the next one, so I wouldn't be surprised if something even more ridiculous came down the pike in 2014.  

Then again... Oh man, can you imagine a SPIDER-MAN movie going in the same overwrought Oedipal direction as Ang Lee's HULK did, with Dads going crazy and mutant DNA dogs and...

NO NO NO HOLLYWOOD!  DO NOT DO THIS TO US AGAAAAIIINNN!!

Let us all bow our heads... and pray...

Casey shit talks better than Spidey all day long.  Raimi Spidey is a better wise cracker than ASM Spidey! 

"That's a nice outfit, did your husband make it for you?"

"Shush kiddo, mommy and daddy are talking."

ASM Spidey is just mean. 

I hope they go in the direction of the comics where Peter's parents came back, but they were just LMD's created by the Chameleon to fuck with him.

That was both wonderfully comic booky and incredibly, inappropriately dark.

I actually thought the wise cracks in TASM were an improvement over Raimi's. They might be mean but they were funny. The ones in Raimi's weren't funny except for the "did your husband make it for you" one.

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Originally Posted by User_32 

I actually thought the wise cracks in TASM were an improvement over Raimi's. They might be mean but they were funny. The ones in Raimi's weren't funny except for the "did your husband make it for you" one.

So, screw whether or not it's appropriate dialogue for Peter Parker cause it's funny?

Some thoughts:

- Denis Leary has the perfect Denis Leary moment when Emma Stone fakes being on the rag. "Um yeah okay bye"

- I'm a sucker for stuff going on in the background of shots while someone oblivious is in the foreground, so the Stan Lee cameo killed me.

- Here and there Rhys Ifans reminded me of a young David Warner. I liked when Peter impresses Connors with how smart he is, because Ifans can play a dude whose assessment of your intelligence is valuable.

- They had time for, well, just about anything else in the movie but they didn't have, like, two more minutes for Peter swinging Gwen around the city?

- From Wikipedia I learn that "Hannah Marks portrays Missy Kallenback, an unpopular girl who has a crush on Peter." Oh, so that was the one whose banner Flash messed up, and who we saw briefly later being checked out by a paramedic? She had a crush? She had a name? I have this vision of Hannah Marks excitedly making up a backstory for Missy Kallenbeck and ending up with about a minute of screen time and no dialogue.

- Sad that we'll never get to see Peter dating Kitty Pryde as in Ultimate Spider-Man. Not to mention the bit where he and Wolverine switch bodies.

- So, what, they're saving J. Jonah Jameson for the second movie? Assuming they're not going to bring back the mighty J.K. Simmons, the obvious choice would be Lee Ermey. Bryan Cranston also just popped into my head. GET OUT OF MY HEAD, BRYAN CRANSTON.

- Swinging scenes were cool. Other than the above enjoyable stuff, weak tea.

I actually quite liked Leary in this.  That guy actually has a clear character arc.

I like Leary's stand-up but I like him better as an actor, which I think was always his goal anyway (No Cure for Cancer was conceived more as a one-man show a la Spalding Gray  than as a stand-up gig). He has a way of seeming like he's the Only Sane Man, which, granted, in this movie isn't hard. I did want a little more Denis-esque delivery when Captain Stacy makes his announcement about Spider-Man: "We have a warrant out for the arrest of the vigilante known as ... really? we're gonna go with that? ... *sigh* fine, fuckin' Spider-Man. Jesus. Spider. Man. See what I have to deal with, folks?"

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Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

- Sad that we'll never get to see Peter dating Kitty Pryde as in Ultimate Spider-Man. Not to mention the bit where he and Wolverine switch bodies.

 

 I thought Peter and Kitty where a better couple than Peter and MJ. I have no reasoning to back that up, its just how I feel.

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Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 

So, screw whether or not it's appropriate dialogue for Peter Parker cause it's funny?

? It's appropriate for the Peter Parker of THIS movie, yes.

As a side note, this is my ideal Spidey suit design.  Basically the Raimi suit with slightly larger eyes, maybe a smaller more teenage looking actor.  I wonder why they felt they had to modify the suit so much.
 

The one in the film looked fine to me.

I suppose.  Change for change sake and all that.

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Originally Posted by Freeman 

 

.  I wonder why they felt they had to modify the suit so much.
 

BECAUSE THIS AIN'T YOUR GRANDPAPPY'S SPIDAHMAN, YO!!!!!  THIS IS THAT UNTOLD SHIT, YA HEARD?

I'm frankly amazed that we're still talking about this film, despite the fact that most of us agree that it's just meh overall.  I may not have liked The Avengers that much, but at least there's something tangible to grasp there; we can have a discussion about it and what it might mean for the future of Superhero films.  This? This is just mediocre retread of something we've seen and read hundreds of times before.

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Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

I actually quite liked Leary in this.  That guy actually has a clear character arc.

Leary is terrific.  I don't know what Raimi could have done with the character if he had a better script (although, as much as I like him, the miscast James Cromwell was not a good start), but Stacy doesn't even seem to have that much of a point in Spiderman 3 aside from his small role in the SANDMAN WAS THE KILLER development.  They didn't even need to show that Gwen has a father for all of the times he actually was shown to be a relation of hers.  Leary actually gets a really tight, satisfying arc here...I would have loved some more Leary-isms, but he does very, very well and is probably one of my favorite performances in the film.

Man, that suit is SKIN TIGHT!  I can see the veins on his arms!

Saw it last night  not as bad as I had been lead to believe.  Still hate the suit design and could do without emo Parker but the bits with Spider-man being Spider-man were pretty damn great.

My only real bugbear was the Spider bite sequence, I'm still not sure why Peter being bitten didn't just kill him rather than grant him powers as they were all pre perfecting formula spiders.  There was an off hand comment about his dad breeding them but it was all very vague.

Liked it way, WAY better than I thought I would, but went in with virtually zero expectations beyond Emma Stone looking cute (and really, she's jumps near the top of the heap as far as "love interest performances" go in a superhero movie).  Be a shame if/when her character arc sync up with that of the comics....unless they go the Ultimate route and decide to keep her alive.  Given that they've definitely kept a good bit of the framework of Ultimate Spider-Man here, I'd say it's up in the air (no pun intended).

Also, Post/MId credits teaser?  Maybe a little bit TOO vague....

Also, I couldn't help but wonder if the "Car thief" segment was added in after folks complained about how "dark" the film looked with its' initial trailer.  It seemed like it was really the only moment of "Spider-Wit" in the film, and given how prominently it featured in later trailers it seemed like their attempt to say "No look, our Spidey's jokey just like the comics!"  Except he really wasn't for the rest of the film.

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Originally Posted by Ska Oreo 

 

I'm frankly amazed that we're still talking about this film, despite the fact that most of us agree that it's just meh overall. 

All the more reason for studios to keep cranking out soulless reboots....it doesn't matter how bad they are, people will keep them alive.

But there's still some life left in it!  I MUST STOMP ITS FACE!

"Shoot it again, Nooj. HIS SOUL IS STILL DANCING!"

I liked it. Not as good as S-M2, but few things are. It was a more promising start than S-M1, and it was certainly better than S-M3. Then, so was my last bowel movement. 

Couple things:

 - Our villain, now redeemed, uses first one arm and then the other to pull our hero to safety. All well and good, but why does Spider-Man need help climbing anything? Climbing things is what Spider-Man does. He's been zipping around the whole movie; suddenly he can't climb two feet?

 - I'm resigned to product placement in modern blockbusters, and I don't normally mind it. But when it's for something stupid, it jumps out at me. No one uses Bing!

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Originally Posted by grubstreeter 

 - Our villain, now redeemed, uses first one arm and then the other to pull our hero to safety. All well and good, but why does Spider-Man need help climbing anything? Climbing things is what Spider-Man does. He's been zipping around the whole movie; suddenly he can't climb two feet?

He was tiiiiiiiiired!

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Originally Posted by felix 

"Shoot it again, Nooj. HIS SOUL IS STILL DANCING!"

 

He keeps dodging it!!!

Well, I just got back from seeing this. I quite liked it. Somewhere in there is a GREAT spider-man movie, that was absolutely cut to ribbons with editing and re-shoots.

Good.

• Loved the police scanner thing. Should have kept that, dunno why he was just watching police cars by the end. 
• Leary was great.
• Sheen was perfect - but they utterly fucked his death up by showing it. Just have Peter react to a gun shot and run for help. Also - yelling to call an ambulance. Son, we just saw you with a mobile phone.

• I really liked the score. But it needed a stronger theme. I can hear the Raimi one in my head right now. Can't remember this one.

• Really liked him playing games while waiting for the lizard. 
• DAILY BUGLE TV! (JJ as a network exec for sequel?)
• Loved the subway scene.
• Spider-sense was done really well, nice little sound effect cue when it came up.
• The crane stuff worked - no sillier than in the Raimi films and wasn't too overblown. No terrible off screen dialogue anyway.
• I liked that the lizard syrum is set up for the Green Goblin. It's obvious now he'll be transformed into the classic comic book version, and his green scales come from it being a slightly changed lizard syrum. I also like that they lay down the schizo/split personality stuff with it for the Goblin too. It doesn't just change you physically, it sends you bonkers too.
• The practical web slinging stuff was really good, and it makes sense he's only working at night as he's at school in the day.
• Peter not being the dweed-geek worked for me. The characterisation reminded me of myself as a 17year old. That was in the late 90s, so I imagine it's only become more common. Maybe because Garfield is American/British? We don't really have that classic "nerd" over here. At least, we never did at my school.

Bad.

• Dr. Ratha was pointless, but necessary if you're not going to show Osborn. Who I don't have a problem being kept in shadows for now. 
• They really needed to spend some more time on him building the web shooters and him ordering them from Oscorp. Using his dads old ID or something?
• Peter is a total cock, however, I think you could probably fix this in the edit. I dunno if it's his performance but he shows seemingly zero humility for too long a run in the film. Like stealing the badge and getting the other kid in trouble. Skatboarding was fun too, although a bit Footloose for my liking. If they'd showed Peter fixing things after he knackers them, it would have helped hugely. 
• Ifans was terrible. He line reading of "and then they were gone..." in his kitchen made me laugh out loud.
• The lizard crushing his camera stopped him from getting the Bugle reward, which is dumb. Perfect opportunity to show him being nice to May, instead of a total cunt. She lost her husband, buy her some fucking eggs when she asks, not at the end when she doesn't.
• They fucked the entire movie by cutting out the "untold story" stuff. Yeah, it changes his origins completely, but whatever, in this case it could have actually worked.
• Car thief scene was stupid. How the hell did he get in and out of a locked car? If they'd set up Ben's killer as a car thief, would have made more sense - he was setting bait or something.
• Uncle Ben's speech was split up between 3 different people all trying to say the same thing. Terrible choice.
• Where the fuck where the SWAT lizards? Is there an entire sequence missing? That was set up for a entire set-piece. Weird.
• The first reveal of the lizard cannot have been more fudged. At a distance? Stupid. You have a giant monster, you reveal him in a big transformation sequence. Again, re-shoots?
• Aunt May gets over Uncle Ben's death pretty fucking quick. Considering May KNOWS Ben died because Peter was being selfish, she didn't seem all that bothered. This was a major emotional arc for the 3rd film, so that was strange. 
• The end fight on the tower is a horrible animated mess. The only stuff that works is Captain Stacy's reveal with the shotgun.
• What the hell is up with the "...a wise man once told me about stories..." thing at the end? Actually annoyed me.
• The only non-white characters in NEW YORK are a cab driver and a rubbish villain. Way to go.

Observations.

• What was up with the cute brunette nerd with glasses? She seemed important somehow. Trying to make her the new Ditkovich daughter?
• The repeated unmasking wasn't a problem for me. Same thing happens in the Raimi films.

• He definitely get's bitten in the blue spider room in the trailer, you can see it lowering behind him. Better than having him bitten about five minutes later while talking to Gwen.
• To the complaints that Garfield is too handsome. I don't buy it, he's suitably dorky looking enough - big ears, big top head etc. It's not Maguire, but it works.
• Flash Thompson has a good little arc. Though, that hug Gwen gives Peter after he confronts flash at the lockers should have been between Flash and Peter, and set him up as a potential ally later on in the films, giving him the Harry role.
• Considering Webb is from a music video backround, he seems to have a terrible understanding of story economics. Huge scenes that could be fit into a montage, or just combined with others. This is probably a casualty of re-shoots though. Very awkward transitions between acts.
• Aunt May should have figured out he was Spider-Man. Let Peter know in a look, nothing direct. An understanding. Gives her something to actually do.

...Oh yeah, and did they ever fix the flood in the basement? Should have shown him webbing that up for Aunt May.

I just rewatched the Riami film for shits and giggles, and people who are saying this is a better movie than that one are going to be sooooo peeved when they think on things a little more and maybe view them back to back and come to their senses.

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Originally Posted by SeanCE 

• Aunt May should have figured out he was Spider-Man. Let Peter know in a look, nothing direct. An understanding. Gives her something to actually do.

I'm pretty sure she knew when he stormed out of the kitchen after seeing the news report declaring Spider-Man a wanted vigilante. The film is just really clunky.

So, any guesses as to what they're going to call the next one? Web of Spider-Man? Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man?

...Amazing Fantasy #15?

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Originally Posted by D.T. 

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I'm pretty sure she knew when he stormed out of the kitchen after seeing the news report declaring Spider-Man a wanted vigilante. The film is just really clunky.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty clear she knew he was Spider-Man at the end when he came home all beaten up giving her the milk. She'd just watched what happened with the Lizard on TV and then saw Peter come in beaten up. She kind of gave a knowing look there not questioning why he looks so fucked up.

See, I figured that, but it isn't stated clear enough. Its too subtle. 

Yeah, if we don't go into the next one with Aunt May already knowing, it's going to be the most retarded thing ever, because at the end of the movie IT'S PUBLICLY KNOWN THAT CURT CONNORS WAS THE LIZARD and Ben/May already know the Parker/Connors connection. So unless May somehow tells herself Peter just randomly got beaten up the same night all the Lizard shit was going down...

See, this is why a whole new mythology connecting everything is so stupid. In the old comics there was no Sooper Seekrit Conspiracy involving Richard Parker and OsCorp and all that happy horseshit. It's the same problem as "Batman's parents were killed by...THE JOKER!" Motherfuckers always have to tie everything together in a neat little bow. It's like, no. Here's a kid, he gets bitten by a spider, he becomes a hero. Other people in his life have fuck-all to do with what happened to him. Aunt May isn't the in-law of some dude who dropped awesome science and got shady people after him and possibly genetically altered Peter himself so that the spider bite wouldn't kill him; she's just Aunt May who's always frail and Peter has to worry about her AND THAT'S IT.

Sort of connected: just caught John C. McGinley in Point Break on TV and thought "Hmm. Norman Osborn?" Though supposedly Michael Massee — best known as the man who inadvertently killed Brandon Lee — is the Man in the Shadows at the end, though who knows if that's supposed to be Osborn.

If you're casting for looks McGinley is the ideal Norman Osborn.  I'll take Willem any day though.
 

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Originally Posted by SeanCE 

See, I figured that, but it isn't stated clear enough. Its too subtle. 

True but they never out and out said that Aunt May knew in the Raimi films either. I think the only clue was in the second film when she's moving out of her house and talks to Peter about heroes she gives a hint that she knows.

Yeah, I always read that scene as Aunt May totally knows.  It works better dramatically if you're seeing it from the perspective of her suspecting, particularly after Peter saves here after the bank.  "What do you mean, we?"

All this Aunt May talk reminds me of a moment in the 2nd movie that always breaks my heart.

Her giving Peter some birthday money as she cries about it not being much.  MY GOD.

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Originally Posted by Freeman 

I just rewatched the Riami film for shits and giggles, and people who are saying this is a better movie than that one are going to be sooooo peeved when they think on things a little more and maybe view them back to back and come to their senses.

I think Film Critic Hulk hits it spot on as to why people seem to be somewhat positive about the movie:

I really can't imagine anyone here who've claimed they like it will be itching to watch this thing again or buy it on blu-ray.  While I still can't argue for the original Raimi film, I saw Spiderman 2 that was playing at a Hibachi grill while muted, and I managed to still be captivated by it.  

I'd like to know why people don't like the Raimi first film ASIDE from not liking the Goblin costume.  What are the complaints?  It's the PERFECT origin movie.

"Spider-Man doesn't crack wise every five minutes and Tobey Maguire looks funny when he cries derp derp derp."

I like the Raimi film.  I just didn't love it.  But honestly, I can't recall why I didn't back then.

You know, it might've been my immature desire to see AOTC make more money that year.  I can't deny that my knee-jerk reaction to its huge success may have turned me a little against it at the time.

I'd need to watch the film again to remember why I didn't take to it completely.

I actually prefer it to 2, mostly because I think Dafoe's over the top turn as Osborne is much more fun than Doc Ock.

Am I the only one getting tired of scientist becomes monster villain in these films? And if they aren't a scientist, they're just misunderstood!
 

Well the character is DOCTOR Curt Connors.  What can you do?