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Do Performances Matter?

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 

Do performances matter?

 

We love certain actors, and we love certain performances. There are easily a good ten or fifteen male and female actors that I would gladly plunk down full price to see in a showcase role, usually Daniel Day Lewis, or Phil Hoffman in The Master. And sometimes there are film so eerily dependent on an actor's presence that it would be a botch-job without anyone else in the part.

 

But when it comes to great movies, I tend to feel that Hitchcock was decades ahead of his time when he said that "actors are cattle." The French New Wave and the American indie movement meant a wider net was being cast, filmmakers tabbing either less-than-attractive actors, or even non-actors, for lead roles. Were these actors good? It didn't matter - they were manipulated into enhancing the film experience by the writers and directors. Puzzle pieces in sometimes wonderful puzzles.

 

philip-seymour-hoffman-master-teaser.jpg

As a result, the old days you used to have actors who starred in ten or fifteen masterpieces all on their own. Today, take one really terrific actor, maybe one of your favorites, and you'll be surprised at just how few "classic" movies they've been in. One of the top box office draws is Tom Cruise, and more often than not, he's always worth watching in a movie. But are his movies worth watching? Maybe five or six. If you're only looking for GREAT great movies from him, that number shrinks considerably. Nevermind someone like Paul Giamatti, who has a couple of great movies to his name, but has been fantastic is SCORES of terrible films not worth watching a second time.

 

At a certain point, does it matter? Of course, if you want DDL to play Lincoln, it's going to rule no matter what. But what about someone like Cruise? He was recently in the terrible "Rock Of Ages" where his performance is sort of a Brechtian masterpiece of odd tics and insecurities, buried underneath a superstar's mask. I kind of think he's absolutely masterful in the role. But the film itself, including a few of his scenes, isn't exactly appointment viewing. It's quite awful, and despite the fondness of Cruise's performance, I'll never sit through that again.

 

tom-cruise-rock-of-ages-12.jpg

 

I find it really odd that people continue to offer critiques of some performances as well, as if some performances can be "good" or "bad" when they need only be functional. Hollywood employs so many terrible actors right now who are nonetheless either professional and/or great to be around, and for the most part, they don't damage their respective films. Keanu Reeves has an appealing Zen-like quality, but can you seriously go to bat for him being an interesting actor? At best he's been functional, like in "The Gift," a part that would have been compelling had any number of Hollywood studs played it. Hell, imagine that role played by John Hawkes. Imagine it played by Bryan Cranston. Anson Mount. Doesn't really matter, does it? We remember that role because we're already familiar with Keanu, maybe the most famous dude in that movie.

 

I want to boil this down to "an actor is only as good as his material" but that feels too pat. I just feel weird critiquing, say, Kirsten Dunst in the "Spider-Man" movies - she's alright, pretty good in the emotional scenes. But what's the point of offering an opinion? She's playing "the girl" in a big blockbuster. She's written as functional. Credit to Raimi that she's more of a presence than the (otherwise wonderful) Emma Stone in the new Spidey, who has more to do, superficially, but not more to play, so to speak. What makes the two similar is that these are not demanding or interesting roles. Both serve their purpose.

 

Kirsten+Dunst+Spider-Man.jpg

 

It's starting to make me feel jaded. Bryan Cranston is so good on "Breaking Bad" and when he used that clout to start showing up in movies, I got excited. Then I started seeing them. The guy's been showing up and doing five or ten minutes in each movie, from tiny indies (Detachment) to big budget spectacles (Red Tails). He doesn't make these movies any better or worse, and it just kinda bums me out that such a good actor can only be "functional" in these scenarios.

 

I get awards and prestige. And some performances are wonderfully transformative things (Crowe in The Insider, Mitchum in Night Of The Hunter, Bassett in What's Love Got To Do With It). But I've started to feel that, at least in movies, performances themselves feel like entirely superficial elements that do nothing to affect a movie's quality, more or less.

 

After all, I'm still watching John Travolta movies. And he's terrible!

 

Oakley-Square-Wire-John-Travolta-2-big.jpg

 

So I dunno, I hope I didn't ramble on too long. What do you think? Do cinematic performances really matter? And why?

post #2 of 38

Yes. Because they're the soul of the film. A badly written, poorly directed film is worth it's weight in gold if a performance is good. So many films are technically correct, but they lack a heart or soul - I'm thinking nearly all big films in the last 10 years.

 

North by Northwest and Indiana Jones wouldn't work without those performances. I don't think it matters if the actor is bringing his technique, or a director manipulates. It's sometimes just an indefinable thing and it's why most great films are flukes of luck. 

post #3 of 38

I don't know if this is related... but when I see certain non-actors try to act, I find that I appreciate 'bad' actors all the more.  But that's probably really down to how well the actual filmmaking is done around the performance.

post #4 of 38

Interesting question.

 

Two extreme opposites immediately spring to mind.  Eisentein and Chaplin.

 

Eisenstein was all form and no content (for the most part), while Chaplin was all content and no form.  The performance was essential in Chaplin's films because there was very little cinematic technique to speak of.  Eisenstein built his films on editing, so the lack of performance wasn't much of a hindrance.  

 

So performance doesn't necessarily always matter.  Aronofsky's Pi is great, but the lead actor's performance is merely adequate and nothing special...probably mediocre.  But nobody cared because Aronofsky carried the film with his technique.  The lead actor didn't get famous, Aronofsky did.  

post #5 of 38

This kinda assumes that every director directs the same. Any director with a stringent enough vision is going to trust his actors to give him what HE wants, but theres plenty that have no idea what that is until their actors bring it to life, however they see fit. Cronenberg's a pretty regular proponent of letting his actors take a scene or performance wherever it needs to go, and his instincts to let them roll with it are almost always right.

 

So, I guess the answer is yeah, actors are cattle. How much their input matter depends on the shepherd.

post #6 of 38

This comes down to what you think makes a great performance though. Which is subjective. Do you enjoy a nice slice of ham? Naturalism? Improvisation? Technical proficiency? Charm?

 

And how much does that rely on a director? I think some of the best technical actors are the ones that need the best directors - the ones that know when to say something and when to fuck off. Too many films now have great people, falling on their arse because they're over-directed or fed readings.

 

For me, it always falls into charm. Which is why I mentioned Ford and Grant. I'll always watch them in something because I find their nature, their presence enhances a film and it's something that transcends a good or bad director.

post #7 of 38

I think too there is something to be said for the "right actor for the role/film". Meaning a bad actor can really ham it up, yet "make" the film. Or, you can have a bad actor who nonetheless embodies the character they are playing.

 

Scanners is an example. Cronenberg didn't like his lead actor (and the actor must have agreed since he retired after the film), and yet, as written, he plays that character exactly the way he is supposed to be played. (I leave out the question of whether the script had to be re-written to fit the lead's "personality").

post #8 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

Do performances matter?

 


As a result, the old days you used to have actors who starred in ten or fifteen masterpieces all on their own. Today, take one really terrific actor, maybe one of your favorites, and you'll be surprised at just how few "classic" movies they've been in. One of the top box office draws is Tom Cruise, and more often than not, he's always worth watching in a movie. But are his movies worth watching? Maybe five or six. If you're only looking for GREAT great movies from him, that number shrinks considerably. Nevermind someone like Paul Giamatti, who has a couple of great movies to his name, but has been fantastic is SCORES of terrible films not worth watching a second time.

Some factors to think about:

 

I think a lot of what you are complaining about comes down to the loss of 1) the Studio system, where Execs basically created and coddled Stars and 2) Studio Execs who actually give a rat's ass about film.

 

James Cagney, to cite one example, could star as a Psychopathic Gangster in White Heat, then turn around and hoof it up in a musical. That's a huge range of roles/films, and it just does not exist in today's world, where Studios seem adverse to spending less than $100M on a film, but it they do so, it must be a BlockBuster. And  BlockBuster today is a) a Superhero film b) an Action Adventure film.

 

Studios had a strict control over the public perception of there Stars. Today I think the only actors who maintain and carefully cultivate their image are Tom Cruise (prior to 2005) and Will Smith. And they are still the only major Movie Stars who can bring in large crowds to their films (though Cruise may now be in doubt).

 

Studios also could spot real talent, and help actors realize their full potential. Today an actor can go their entire career without ever taking an acting lesson, singing lesson, etc.

post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Today an actor can go their entire career without ever taking an acting lesson

ashton_kutcher_two_half_men.jpg

post #10 of 38

Now, that leads us to another interesting topic: charisma. I remember Cameron Crowe replacing Ashton Kutcher with Orlando Bloom in ELIZABETHTOWN because Kutcher isn't a very good actor. But I'd argue Kutcher has an innate likability that Bloom lacks. See also: Dwayne Johnson and Arnie.

post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post
I remember Cameron Crowe replacing Ashton Kutcher with Orlando Bloom in ELIZABETHTOWN because Kutcher isn't a very good actor.

 

Hahahaha ouch.

post #12 of 38

Well, like him or not but Bloom has studied acting and done theatre. Kutcher's done modeling work and studied NOTHING.

post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post

Well, like him or not but Bloom has studied acting and done theatre. Kutcher's done modeling work and studied NOTHING.


Married Demi Moore. You or I couldn't have done that!

post #14 of 38

Ashton could get Bruce Willis to marry him if he wanted to. He's an impossibly likable guy.

post #15 of 38

Speaking of Willis, and the role of the director, how about his performance in Moonrise Kingdom? He's getting some of his best notices in years, and it's almost certainly related to the way Anderson directed him-- Norton and Keitel are similarly, uncharacteristically buttoned-down, with studied, declarative diction.

post #16 of 38

It's an interesting discussion. I think a good enough actor (nay a movie star) can elevate a film. Andrew Garfield in the new Spiderman is a good example - its his performance that makes the film worth seeing.

post #17 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post

 See also: Dwayne Johnson

 

This is definitely true of Johnson. I remember back when I was watching wrestling, he was first introduced into the WWF as a generic good guy. He was fairly bland, and fans actually turned against him, booing him at matches despite the fact they were trying to sell him to the audience. Eventually, he slowly created a heel persona, with his macho posturing, eye brow raises, and quick delivery. Fans loved it, so much that he became the villain fans loved to hate, and finally a  character fans just loved. Despite the fact he wasn't a particularly amazing athlete, his success is all a result of his charisma and likability.

post #18 of 38

Often it comes down to captivation. Some actors are primarily captivating by performance (DDL, Phillip Seymour Hoffman, De Niro), some are primarily captivating by sheer presence/charisma (Pitt, Clooney,Cary Grant), some are captivating both ways (Paul Newman, Nicholson, Warren Beatty). Usually performance matters most in character pieces and are often what wins Best Actor awards, even though every so often you have a more commercial film like Training Day or The French Connection which are fairly straightforward cop/action films that are raised to the next level by great performances.

post #19 of 38
Thread Starter 

Two things:

 

-Backing up my comment about Mary Jane, I just feel weird when people critique female performances. The nature of the beast is twofold - most critics and hardcore movie watchers are male, and it's a generalization to say most of them don't really understand how women behave. Though I think there is truth to that. And the other issue is that there simply aren't a lot of interesting, extroverted characters for women to play in big mainstream movies. Look at "Savages" -- there's the Bitch Mother, and then there's drugged-out, blissed-out Blake Lively. Not exactly demanding roles. To say either of them is bad at this (Hayek is great, though it's a showy role) feels just kind of wrong to me.

 

-One of my issues with creating this thread is that it's not about actors as much as how they were utilized. I just saw "Magic Mike," which leans heavily on the likes of Alex Pettyfer and Cody Horn. But they're used pretty much like props by someone like Soderbergh, who operates with the strictest fidelity to that actors = cattle line. If I'm viewing the film from an outside perspective, I would conclude that Horn and Pettyfer were less-than-deep actors. But I was absolutely mooned by how they were used in this film, how much I cared about those characters and their circumstances. Soderbergh's worked with some titans, but it's amazing how he's even able to make the least complex actors into wonderful cogs in a well-oiled machine.

post #20 of 38

My note on Haywire in the OCD thread: "I don't know if Gina Carrano has another great performance in her, but she had this one and Soderbergh found it."

post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post

Speaking of Willis, and the role of the director, how about his performance in Moonrise Kingdom? He's getting some of his best notices in years, and it's almost certainly related to the way Anderson directed him-- Norton and Keitel are similarly, uncharacteristically buttoned-down, with studied, declarative diction.

 

I tend to put Willis in the category of actors that are usually better than their material. UNBREAKABLE, HOSTAGE, 16 BLOCKS, TEARS OF THE SUN, SURROGATES, even COLOR OF NIGHT -- none of these are great movies, but Willis is spot-on in all of them. And I'm not talking "star power." It's clear he put in a lot of work to make the characters interesting and credible. The writers and directors failed him.

post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

 

 I just saw "Magic Mike," which leans heavily on the likes of Alex Pettyfer and Cody Horn. But they're used pretty much like props by someone like Soderbergh, who operates with the strictest fidelity to that actors = cattle line.

 

Seems like he's always had a thing about non-actors. "Let's see what I can sculpt with this clay." Sasha Grey, Gina Carano, the folks in Bubble, himself and his wife in Schizopolis. And then you have Jennifer Lopez' undisputed best performance, and probably only real performance. I'd imagine part of it is that non-actors have less to unlearn, and they just put themselves in Soderbergh's hands and let him guide them. The other thing is that with Sasha, Gina and some of the guys in Magic Mike he's working with people who have specific physical things they bring to the table. Sasha Grey doesn't actually do any porn in The Girlfriend Experience but the way she carries herself tells you she's not exactly a virgin. Was it Stallone who said it's easier to teach a boxer to act than to teach an actor to box? So you have Carano. I don't know that you could train Jennifer Lawrence to deal out the ass-whipping like Carano does (it's not really a matter of learning and practicing the moves so much as that sense that you're watching someone who's been kicking ass for so long it's second nature); you almost definitely couldn't get Winter's Bone out of Carano. It's a trade-off. I've said before that Soderbergh uses non-actors almost as found objects. He's certainly also made his share of actor-centered films with great performances, but from time to time it seems he likes to build a movie around something physical that catches his attention. Act of Valor (that thing with "actual Navy SEALs") was, in outline, the perfect Soderbergh film, except shitty.

post #23 of 38

Is it too pat an answer to say that it depends entirely on the film? Sometimes performances are essential and indelible, like Brando in Godfather. He adds immensely to the film, by virtue of his celebrity alone. The film would be lessened without a performance of that stature at the center. Generic Hollywood Blockbuster #32, on the other hand, simply needs someone who's easy on the eyes and not obviously bad, Dunst in Spiderman being a good example. It's tough to imagine anyone being actually 'great' in that role.

 

Plus, no great performance, even on stage, is entirely the result of the actor in question. They get help from directors, editors, hell, even costumers and musicians. And it has to be the right actor in the right role too, always. There's terrific actors cast wrong all the time. I'd say there was simply no chance Leonardo DiCaprio was going to be good as J Edgar Hoover, no matter how hard he and Eastwood worked. 

 

It's the sort of thing that you can't simply make a blanket statement on. It's case by case. Keanu Reeves, for example, is probably an objectively worse actor than Will Smith, but would the Matrix have been improved with Smith in the lead? I think absolutely not. It's not yes or no, just case dependent.

post #24 of 38

I'm reminded of Pauline Kael's line on Star Wars: "The actors don't appear to be deliberately acting badly-- they're just bad actors."

 

Oh and if anything, Dunst was massively overqualified for Spider-Man.

post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post

Ashton could get Bruce Willis to marry him if he wanted to. He's an impossibly likable guy.

 

 

For an impossibly likable guy he sure has a lot of people who hate him. I've never met anyone who claimed to like Ashton Kutcher.

post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWT3 View Post

 

 

For an impossibly likable guy he sure has a lot of people who hate him. I've never met anyone who claimed to like Ashton Kutcher.

 

Yeah, he's in my "actors who will instantly turn me off from a project" pile. I've never been able to stand him. I'm happy to have him on 2 1/2 men because it keeps him away from anything there's a chance I'll watch.

post #27 of 38

Yes, I think they do matter. I just watched Taxi Driver for the umpteenth time the other night, and while Jodie Foster's performance was good, it's all De Niro. Without him? I'm not sure I'd like the movie all that much (just my opinion).

post #28 of 38

Before Casino Royale I pitched to my friend an idea for the new direction for James Bond. James Bond - the early years. Starring Ashton Kutcher.

 

"Would you like to have your martini shaken or stirred, mr Bond?"

"Eww! DUDE! That's, like, HEINOUS!"

 

This friend almost punched me in the face for putting these ideas into the world.

 

I was referring more to his appearance in interviews than his appearance in garbage tv shows and movies. He's got two out of three in the accountability - appearance - talent -triangle.

post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaraP View Post

Yes, I think they do matter. I just watched Taxi Driver for the umpteenth time the other night, and while Jodie Foster's performance was good, it's all De Niro. Without him? I'm not sure I'd like the movie all that much (just my opinion).

 

The thing is, De Niro is so charismatic that he derails the intent of the film. Everybody forgets that "You talkin' to me? 'Cause I'm the only one here..." is supposed to be pathetic but dangerous fantasizing.

post #30 of 38

Doesn't that kind of feed into the ending though, where he's lionized as a hero? It's hard to see him as an idealized fantasy figure when he's mohawked and blowing people away, and trying to blow himself away.

post #31 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post

 

The thing is, De Niro is so charismatic that he derails the intent of the film. Everybody forgets that "You talkin' to me? 'Cause I'm the only one here..." is supposed to be pathetic but dangerous fantasizing.

I think this has to do more with the fact that most movies enter the popular lexicon for the wrong reasons.

post #32 of 38

Examples? "May the Force be With You" means what it's supposed to mean. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" survives any context.

 

I can't think of another film that's been so willfully misinterpreted as Taxi Driver. And it's because De Niro makes you want to be Travis Bickle, Outlaw Asskicker, despite the film's clear statement that he's the victim of a society that has no use for him and a system that's failed him. I've always felt that he and Scorsese made The King of Comedy specifically to re-frame that argument in the wake of John Hinckley Jr.

post #33 of 38
Then it's a problem with King of Comedy too, because I think most people end up rooting for Rupert Pupkin. Hell, I do myself a tiny bit.

And the easiest place to see the wrong things getting embraced is gangster movies. Look at Scarface, or Michael Corleone. At least Goodfellas acknowledges how awesome it feels. Another place to see it is in the modern TV antihero.
post #34 of 38

That's the difference. You empathize with Rupert, but you don't quote him in casual conversation.

 

As for gangster movies, most all of them are wish-fulfillment fantasies on some level. Very few are honestly about crime not paying.

post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post

Examples? "May the Force be With You" means what it's supposed to mean. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" survives any context.

 

I can't think of another film that's been so willfully misinterpreted as Taxi Driver. And it's because De Niro makes you want to be Travis Bickle, Outlaw Asskicker, despite the film's clear statement that he's the victim of a society that has no use for him and a system that's failed him. I've always felt that he and Scorsese made The King of Comedy specifically to re-frame that argument in the wake of John Hinckley Jr.

The rules of Fight Club are quoted and the "Everything is crap" monologue from Tyler Durden are repeated by legions of people who seemingly have never watched the movie past the halfway point.

 

I don't know of many people worth talking to who actually want to BE Travis Bickle. Maybe for a hot second after the movie came out, but Travis Bickle has become synonymous with "deranged, delusional, homicidal lunatic." And not just in film geek circles; even Entertainment Weekly cites him as such. "You talkin to me?" feels badass because we're watching the movie through Travis' eyes, and HE feels badass at that moment. By the end of the film, however, after the events of the climax, I don't know anyone short of John Hinckley Jr. who walked out of the theatre going "Man, that Travis Bickle is just badass served hot on a plate!"

post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post

Examples? "May the Force be With You" means what it's supposed to mean. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" survives any context.

 

I can't think of another film that's been so willfully misinterpreted as Taxi Driver. And it's because De Niro makes you want to be Travis Bickle, Outlaw Asskicker, despite the film's clear statement that he's the victim of a society that has no use for him and a system that's failed him. I've always felt that he and Scorsese made The King of Comedy specifically to re-frame that argument in the wake of John Hinckley Jr

I think that Rupert Pupkin is Travis Bickle in an alternate universe.

 

As others have said the importance of the performers in any film depends on the intentions of the director. In Hitchcock's film actors are cattle, because that's how he used them. In fact to Hitchcock the whole process of actually filming the thing was a burden, as far as he was concerned the project was done when he was done storyboarding, when the film lived in it's finished form in his mind.

But imagine the baroque, stylized argot of David Mamet coming from non-actors, Ricky Roma played by Joe the fry-cook. It's not gonna be good.

 

Your point about De Niro's charisma in the role raises an interesting point about movies whose themes and intents were over-ridden by central performances that were simply too strong. Anthony Hopkins managing to elevate what is in fact a hateful cannibal to the level of cultural icon springs to mind.

post #37 of 38

Also, Rambo.

post #38 of 38

Kutcher was pretty good in that film where he plays the wrestler whose sister gets murdered.
 

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