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THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Post-release thread..... - Page 37

post #1801 of 4231

Bane's violence wasn't mindless. This is redundant, but Bane, like many of Batman's key enemies, is a reflection of what Batman could turn into should he cast aside his morals/ethics, whatever. Bane ends up where he does because he never channeled his pain into anything constructive and positive. Personally, I feel that Bane was well-handled, and his death is fine (there's a nuclear bomb about to go off and he and Bats have already done round two, so there's very little left to say and very little time to say it in, exept for the reveal of Talia and her relationship with Bane, which adds a shade of tragedy and sympathy for the character). Whatever happens to John Blake is up to him, but it's clear from the film that he's already made some of the same decisions that Bruce has made, but is seemingly far less maladjusted (much like Dick Grayson).


Edited by JacknifeJohnny - 8/6/12 at 4:13pm
post #1802 of 4231

Whatever happened to that sniper mercenary who was seen during the skirmish with the police and during Bane's speech? Was he killed in the Tumbler? I was expecting a showdown with him between Gordon or Robin.

post #1803 of 4231

Yes, he was killed in the Tumbler. I believe his name was Barsad.

post #1804 of 4231

Question for the soundtrack enthusiasts...

 

digging the score right now, but I'm confused... the piece that played in the last trailer (or two?) sounded like a really awesome track, but I can't seem to find it on the soundtrack album. Does anyone know the name of it, or where it can be found?

post #1805 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

Question for the soundtrack enthusiasts...

 

digging the score right now, but I'm confused... the piece that played in the last trailer (or two?) sounded like a really awesome track, but I can't seem to find it on the soundtrack album. Does anyone know the name of it, or where it can be found?

 

From a cursory search, it seems like that was a piece Zimmer produced specifically for the trailer.

 

It DOES seem to exist in some form.  Someone put it up on Youtube (go to around 4 minutes in):

 

post #1806 of 4231

No idea yet, but this link could be of help at some point.  It's a cool soundtrack site that helps track down trailer music... the "T" section.

http://www.soundtrack.net/trailers/?cid=T

post #1807 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

Question for the soundtrack enthusiasts...

 

digging the score right now, but I'm confused... the piece that played in the last trailer (or two?) sounded like a really awesome track, but I can't seem to find it on the soundtrack album. Does anyone know the name of it, or where it can be found?


Look up "The Evil Rises" or "MTV Trailer Music" or "Nokia Trailer Music" on youtube - Most are fan edits using previously available material, but for the most part they're pretty good Most of them have download links in the description, but if not, just use ClipConverter to convert to mp3. I would DM you a link, but I'm not at home (where my iTunes library is).

post #1808 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Bane's violence wasn't mindless. This is redundant, but Bane, like many of Batman's key enemies, is a reflection of what Batman could turn into should he cast aside his morals/ethics, whatever. Bane ends up where he does because he never channeled his pain into anything constructive and positive. Personally, I feel that Bane was well-handled, and his death is fine (there's a nuclear bomb about to go off and he and Bats have already done round two, so there's very little left to say and very little time to say it in, exept for the reveal of Talia and her relationship with Bane, which adds a shade of tragedy and sympathy for the character). Whatever happens to John Blake is up to him, but it's clear from the film that he's already made some of the same decisions that Bruce has made, but is seemingly far less maladjusted (much like Dick Grayson).

 

 

I agree with everything said here, especially concerning how Bane's death was handled.  I think him being a puppet of Talia made perfect sense and wonderfully humanized him.  The muscle usually doesn't orchestrate the plan.  Also, I felt Talia was much like a vengeful ghost reflection of Rachel for Bruce. She also mirrored Rachel as an unrequited love that can never be for Bane. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I enjoyed Bane more than Ledger's Joker (although I think that character and performance is brilliant as well).  I even wrote a little bit about that opinion and cinematic Bat-villains in general. 

 

Here's the link if interested:  http://shloggshorrorblog.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-bane-is-best-batman-movie-villain.html

post #1809 of 4231

You have done things very wrong if you make a 3 hour movie and simply can't fit in a minute in the climax to send off the primary antagonist off in style.

post #1810 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

You have done things very wrong if you make a 3 hour movie and simply can't fit in a minute in the climax to send off the primary antagonist off in style.

 

The manner of Bane's death was not, I'd wager, done for concerns about running time. As has been argued in this thread, it was a deliberate choice by Nolan. That doesn't mean you have to like it, and purposefulness does not equate good storytelling. (I have no problems with how Bane is dispatched, though.) 

post #1811 of 4231

Yes, movies where the villains have long protracted death scenes are always the best movies.

post #1812 of 4231

The more distance I get from seeing the film, the more Bane's sudden, humiliating death strikes a chord with me. I still dislike the Talia reveal and her rushed three minutes of villainy, but the third act's steady dismantling of the Bane mythos - his surprise at Bruce's return, his unpreparedness for Bruce's aggression, the all-too-human root of his anger and villainy - works like gangbusters when coupled with Bruce's ascension.

post #1813 of 4231

Not saying that, just that it was a deliberate choice.  To lay Bane's abrupt death at the feet of runtime strikes me as a strange defense, as it suggests a level of incompetence in the structure of the movie that is more damning than making a creative choice that left some cold.

 

To Sebastian

post #1814 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Not saying that, just that it was a deliberate choice.  To lay Bane's abrupt death at the feet of runtime strikes me as a strange defense, as it suggests a level of incompetence in the structure of the movie that is more damning than making a creative choice that left some cold.

 

Did someone upthread actually argue this (that Bane's death was quick due to runtime issues)?

 

Because, yeah, that's a weird, damning charge of incompetence on a grand scale for someone of Nolan's experience and understanding of filmmaking.

post #1815 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Not saying that, just that it was a deliberate choice.  To lay Bane's abrupt death at the feet of runtime strikes me as a strange defense, as it suggests a level of incompetence in the structure of the movie that is more damning than making a creative choice that left some cold.

 

To Sebastian

 

If that "someone" you're referring to is me, then no, that's not what I was implying. My point was that a bomb was in play and Bane had already been laid out on his ass and a new threat revealed in the same breath. It's the narrative flow, not the run time.  

post #1816 of 4231

Okay, I still disagree though, as the movie takes many liberties with the timing of the ticking clock to allow Batman to say goodbye to other characters.  And even if Nolan was keeping slavishly to a set timeframe for the climax, he could always add another minute to the clock, since he's the God of this universe. 

 

Anyway, if it works for folks as an ignoble end to a theatrical baddie, that's peace.  I think it was a bit limp, and only served to highlight how undercooked the concept of Talia taking over the reins of Evil for the last 3 minutes was.

post #1817 of 4231

It's limp as shit, absolutely. I don't think you can argue it could've been better executed. I like the concept, though.
 

post #1818 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

Yes, movies where the villains have long protracted death scenes are always the best movies.

I don't think you need a long scene, just a moment half as satisfying as "No.. but I know how you got these!". Batman never really was able to cow Bane, to stand over him and get the upper hand. Bane's going to kill Batman, delivers a chilling line about "imagining the fire", and then gets blown off screen in a gag, never to be seen again. It didn't feel like Batman had won a great, near impossible victory, rather that Bane's name had simply been crossed off a list of remaining threats.

post #1819 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post

I don't think you need a long scene, just a moment half as satisfying as "No.. but I know how you got these!". Batman never really was able to cow Bane, to stand over him and get the upper hand. Bane's going to kill Batman, delivers a chilling line about "imagining the fire", and then gets blown off screen in a gag, never to be seen again. It didn't feel like Batman had won a great, near impossible victory, rather that Bane's name had simply been crossed off a list of remaining threats.

 

We clearly didn't see the same movie. For all intents and purposes, Batman had proven his mettle and defeated Bane, the latter was only able to get back on his feet due to Talia's intervention.

post #1820 of 4231

Bane's limp comeuppance wasn't THAT big of a deal to me, since we'd already just seen Batman defeat him through the power of video-game weak-points.  It's like throwing metal-blades at Quickman.  Just powpowpowpow BEEW-BEEW-BEEW-BEEW... leading to the film's BEST scene: "WHEREZ THE TRIGGRRRRR????"

 

Hahahaha, that scene reminds me of this:

 

EDIT:  DAMMIT, JACKNIFE!!!

post #1821 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Bane's limp comeuppance wasn't THAT big of a deal to me, since we'd already just seen Batman defeat him through the power of video-game weak-points.  It's like throwing metal-blades at Quickman.  Just powpowpowpow BEEW-BEEW-BEEW-BEEW...


 

 

 

Need Megaman 2 mod of this now, please.

post #1822 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

 

We clearly didn't see the same movie. For all intents and purposes, Batman had proven his mettle and defeated Bane, the latter was only able to get back on his feet due to Talia's intervention.


I know, it just didn't feel satisfying since as you point out, Bane was back on his feat and had regained the upper hand. Batman is saved by a poorly executed (my opinion only) deus ex machina, not by his will to survive or his innate cleverness.

post #1823 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


I know, it just didn't feel satisfying since as you point out, Bane was back on his feat and had regained the upper hand. Batman is saved by a poorly executed (my opinion only) deus ex machina, not by his will to survive or his innate cleverness.

 

Except in this trilogy of films, and this film most of all, the point is that Batman isn't one person, he is the work of several people. He's a concept, not an all-powerful super-being. Being assisted by Selina is perfectly in keeping with the film's thesis.

post #1824 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post

 

Need Megaman 2 mod of this now, please.

 

Or wait...

 

Was it Bubble Man that was the metal-blades' bitch?

 

Yeah, it was Bubble Man!

post #1825 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

 

Except in this trilogy of films, and this film most of all, the point is that Batman isn't one person, he is the work of several people. He's a concept, not an all-powerful super-being. Being assisted by Selina is perfectly in keeping with the film's thesis.


OK it just didn't work for me on an emotional level. I'm sorry. I am glad you felt Bane met a worthy end. He was certainly a great antagonist up till that point for me.

post #1826 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post
 Being assisted by Selina is perfectly in keeping with the film's thesis.

With the advantage of superior and morally-grey FIREPOWER!

 

No guns.  No killing.

 

Except when you're on the Bat-Pod.  Then... you have my permission to go ape-shit.

 

On a somewhat related note... since the movie was so keen on callbacks to Batman Begins, it's truly a shame that Nolan didn't bring back this dude.  What with the bomb and all...

http://www.american-buddha.com/abatman357c.jpg

post #1827 of 4231

It's not a real deus ex machina because Selina is an established character.  It's just not as satisfying for her to land the coup de grace in Bruce's place.

post #1828 of 4231

It was his faith in her that defeated Bane by deus ex proxy!

post #1829 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

It's not a real deus ex machina because Selina is an established character.  It's just not as satisfying for her to land the coup de grace in Bruce's place.

 

But Bruce/Batman already had his coup de grace, complete with using the villain's words back on him. Batman defeated Bane on his terms.  Bane "returned" due to treachery and help. He was put down by help on Batman's side. 

 

There's actually some really nice symmetry going on here. Not sure why it's so hard to see.

 

ETA: Yes, I know coup de grace usually refers to actually killing someone. Batman's victory - his coup - on Bane was meant to parallel Bane's over Batman; not killing him, but crippling him to the point of being unable to act.

post #1830 of 4231

But then he rebounds from that and gets killed anyway.

post #1831 of 4231

I sure wish Indiana Jones got to beat the snot out of Bellock before God exploded him.

post #1832 of 4231

I'm not saying Bane's death was the greatest piece of cinema ever, but what exactly would have worked better for you guys? Batman killing him? More of a beating? Batman telling him that after this was all done, he was going to jail? What would have been more satisfying?

post #1833 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by HypnoToad View Post

I sure wish Indiana Jones got to beat the snot out of Bellock before the God exploded him.

 

You joke, buuuuut...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

 but what exactly would have worked better for you guys? Batman killing him? More of a beating? Batman telling him that after this was all done, he was going to jail? What would have been more satisfying?

 

A finale to match the fate of Cunth in MacGruber, obviously!

post #1834 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

On a somewhat related note... since the movie was so keen on callbacks to Batman Begins, it's truly a shame that Nolan didn't bring back this dude.  What with the bomb and all...

http://www.american-buddha.com/abatman357c.jpg

 

Poor guy his whole life has to deal with supervillain bullshit! Where would Bond, Superman and Batman be without him.

 

 

700

 

 

700

 

 

 

700

post #1835 of 4231

HOLY SHIT!

 

That just makes the lack of his presence in TDKR even more damning!

post #1836 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

But then he rebounds from that and gets killed anyway.

 

He doesn't "rebound" from that. Bane is done. Crippled by pain. He only "rebounds" due to treacherous help. It's not as if Batman beat the shit out of him, Bane collapses, and then pulls a Battle for the Planet of the Apes on him.

 

And again, that unexpected help from the outside is paralleled in Selina taking out Bane. And, as pointed out, Nolan's Batman has always had help. He's never been a wholly self-sufficient crimefighting machine.

post #1837 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

I'm not saying Bane's death was the greatest piece of cinema ever, but what exactly would have worked better for you guys? Batman killing him? More of a beating? Batman telling him that after this was all done, he was going to jail? What would have been more satisfying?

 

I laid out my preferred scenario 10 pages or so back.  But anyway, I'll let it go because it's not the worst thing ever, just an easy fix.  

 

Although I've always found the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark to be the weakest part, due to the deus ex aspects.

post #1838 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

You joke, buuuuut...

 

 

Only half joking. I'm fine with the way Bane was taken out, but as I've said before, I think a better ending would've had Batman taking him on in a round 2.

 

Talia stabs Batman, Catwoman intervenes BEFORE Talia leaves, rescuing the injured Batman on the Batpod. Talia and Bane take off in a tumbler. Batman in the Bat and Catwoman on the Batpod pursue. Realizing Bane and Talia are headed for the Fusion chamber (to flood it) and not the bomb, the two split up, Catwoman and Gordon take control of the bomb truck while Batman, Bane and Talia duke it out in the chamber. Batman again knocks out Bane, but not before Talia floods the chamber. He manages to save Talia, not Bane, just as Gordon and Catwoman arrive with the bomb. He loads it up on the Bat and we resume our normal ending (minus the "Bruce Waaaaayne").

post #1839 of 4231

I would have preferred that Bane be shot by a roving cop who just emerged from the tunnel, instead of the other costumed crimefighter in skintight leather.

post #1840 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

I would have preferred that Bane be shot by a roving cop who just emerged from the tunnel, instead of the other costumed crimefighter in skintight leather.

 

And you think people are bitching about Bane's death now...  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HypnoToad View Post

 

Only half joking. I'm fine with the way Bane was taken out, but as I've said before, I think a better ending would've had Batman taking him on in a round 2.

 

Talia stabs Batman, Catwoman intervenes BEFORE Talia leaves, rescuing the injured Batman on the Batpod. Talia and Bane take off in a tumbler. Batman in the Bat and Catwoman on the Batpod pursue. Realizing Bane and Talia are headed for the Fusion chamber (to flood it) and not the bomb, the two split up, Catwoman and Gordon take control of the bomb truck while Batman, Bane and Talia duke it out in the chamber. Batman again knocks out Bane, but not before Talia floods the chamber. He manages to save Talia, not Bane, just as Gordon and Catwoman arrive with the bomb. He loads it up on the Bat and we resume our normal ending (minus the "Bruce Waaaaayne").

 

They already had their round 2 and Batman came damn close to losing that one as well. I didn't need to see these two duke it out a third time.

post #1841 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

I'm not saying Bane's death was the greatest piece of cinema ever, but what exactly would have worked better for you guys? Batman killing him? More of a beating? Batman telling him that after this was all done, he was going to jail? What would have been more satisfying?

 

It certainly wasn't the worst thing ever, but part of what made it odd for me is that it puts a spotlight on just how dumb the whole "no guns" policy is. Batman's whole Rocky-esque redemption is sort of undermined when Selina just rolls up and casually caps him.

post #1842 of 4231

Exactly.  It points a spotlight on the fact that one bullet would have saved TONS of lives during confrontation 1.
 

post #1843 of 4231

I'll give you that. It does seem like Nolan just sort of lost interest in Batman's whole "no guns" policy, or he thinks it's dumb to begin with.

post #1844 of 4231

Actually didn't finish my comment. Meant to emphasize that it would have been great if Bane was shot, unglamorously, by a gun that wasn't affixed to something that looked like a fucking toy.

post #1845 of 4231

My guess is that Nolan sees it as noble but futile ethic....as does his version of Batman. He uses bullets/guns in all three movies to various effects. 

post #1846 of 4231

The giant guns on the batpod do strain logic though. I mean, does he honestly believe he'd never hit someone with a stray bullet with those things?

post #1847 of 4231

To be fair, he hasn't really shot it at people.  Parked cars, yes.  People, no.  I imagine he just figured he wouldn't shoot it at people.  He didn't shoot at the Joker even though he had the perfect opportunity to, and clearly wanted to.

 

Of course, he basically stopped caring once he got the Bat.

post #1848 of 4231
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

My guess is that Nolan sees it as noble but futile ethic....as does his version of Batman. He uses bullets/guns in all three movies to various effects. 

And he kills multiple people in all three movies.

post #1849 of 4231
He's just blasting those batpod guns to blast through glass doors at a mall. That's just reckless.
post #1850 of 4231

He just didn't have to save them!

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